Pokémon Honchkrow

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Why can't he use Knock Off? He's a crow for goodness' sake!
XY_Honchkrow.png


Name: Honchkrow #430
Type: Dark/Flying
Base stats: 100 HP / 125 Atk / 52 Def / 105 SAtk / 52 SDef / 71 Spd
Abilities:
Insomnia - This Pokemon cannot fall asleep. Gaining this Ability while asleep cures it.
Super Luck - This Pokemon's critical hit ratio is boosted by 1.
Moxie (Hidden) - This Pokemon's Attack is boosted by 1 if it attacks and faints another Pokemon.

Notable Moves:
  • Sucker Punch
  • Brave Bird
  • Superpower
  • Pursuit
  • Night Slash
  • Foul Play
  • Nasty Plot
  • Dark Pulse
  • Heat Wave
  • Drill Peck
  • Roost
  • Whirlwind
  • Taunt
Pros & Cons:

+ high attack stat ; one of the most powerful Sucker Punch users in OU
+ excellent offensive coverage with the combination of Sucker Punch, Brave Bird and Superpower
+ dangerous late game sweep potential with Moxie
+/- subpar speed although compensated by Sucker Punch priority
+/- very mindgame heavy (depends on how good you are at those)
- squishy
- weak to priority users such as Talonflame, Scizor and more
- can take heavy recoil when using Brave Bird with a Life Orb​

Analysis:

Flying ever low under the radar is this majestic bird.

Honchkrow is a strong yet underrated physical sweeper with great offensive coverage who can potentially take down entire teams if given the right circumstances. Therefore he works best in the late game, in which he hopefully gets to clean up a damaged/crippled enemy team where none of his biggest threats are still alive (particularly priority users). This is made even better if you use his hidden ability ability Moxie, which after one or two kills can turn him into an unstoppable force.

The big boss may not have changed much at all since Generation V, but his surroundings sure have. He has a new weakness/enemy resistance with the advent of the Fairy-type. On the other hand, he has lost a much more annoying enemy resistance against Steel types, which used to spell trouble for him as they often boasted high defense and took Sucker Punch or other Dark-type moves pretty easily. This means he is not forced to use Superpower anymore when he wants to deal high damage to Steel types.

Potential movesets:

Physical Attacker


Honchkrow @ Life Orb
Ability: Moxie
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
Adamant Nature
- Sucker Punch
- Brave Bird
- Superpower
- Pursuit/Night Slash/Roost/Heat Wave

This is the essential Honchkrow set. In a nutshell: strike fear into your opponents, read their minds and snowball to victory but do NOT get hit.

The crow may be a bit slow, but boasts one of the most powerful STAB Sucker Punches in all of OU along with Absol and Bisharp. Adamant nature is therefore preferable over Jolly for raw firepower on Sucker Punch. This will give you guaranteed OHKO's on fast Psychic or Ghost-types like Alakazam and Gengar and deal considerable damage to non-resisting Pokémon. Honchkrow's Brave Bird will generally OHKO or deal huge damage to almost anything that doesn't resist it. Those are his two bread and butter attacks. The rule of thumb is you use Sucker Punch against faster opponents and Brave Bird against slower ones (slower opponents also tend to be bulkier so this is convenient). There are exceptions of course. For example, you want to use Sucker Punch against Aegislash's King's Shield not to take the Attack stat reduction.

The tutor move Superpower is strong against Rock and Steel-types as well as specific threats such as Tyranitar and Mawile (both of which are resistant to Brave Bird and Sucker Punch). It's interesting to note that successfully killing with that move negates the inherent Attack stat reduction with Moxie.

The 4th slot is open to a few different options. Pursuit is quite useful as it is pretty common for opponents to switch out in fear of the Brave Bird or Sucker Punch mindgame (making your set even more mindgame-y!). If you prefer a more straightforward Dark-type STAB, you can also choose Night Slash (70 base power but high critical rate). You can also use Roost to heal yourself when predicting a switch/Protect/Sucker Punch bait or Heat Wave for Ferrothorn.

Honchkrow is at his best in the late game. But in order for him to be successful, it is vital for his team to set the stage for him. First of all, priority users such as Talonflame, Scizor, etc. have to be dealt with beforehand as they will very easily stop his sweep attempt and kill him instantly (by out-prioritizing Sucker Punch). To use this set as efficiently as possible, it is recommended to run a team that provides paralysis support as this will allow him to use Brave Bird or Superpower without any danger of being being too slow. Stealth Rock/Spikes/Toxic/Burn or any form of stray damage on the enemy team is also welcome as it will make Sucker Punch more likely to kill.

Checks/counters:
  • Any pokemon with a priority move that can kill Honchkrow (in particular the first two examples)
  • Any pokemon that can tank Brave Bird or Sucker Punch and retaliate efficiently
  • Talonflame - priority Brave Bird OHKO's Honchkrow
  • Scizor - Bullet Punch OHKO's Honchkrow
  • Zapdos - Bulky enough to take Brave Bird, can annoy then Honchkrow with Roost vs Sucker Punch and can kill him pretty easily
  • Terakion - Much faster than Honchkrow and only takes 30-36% from Sucker Punch
  • Togekiss - Offensive Togekiss (at least 184 Spd EV's) can outspeed Honchkrow ; Sucker Punch is almost harmless
  • A bunch of others... will fill in later.
____________________________________________

Been using Honchkrow since Gen IV and overall I feel like he's improved due to the removal of the Steel-type's resistance to Dark-type moves. I think he's underrated so I hope some of you guys will give him a try.

I'll update this thread when I find more info to write about. Make sure to tell me what you think and give me suggestions for other potential movesets!
 
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Is Dread Plate a good item option over Life Orb on that set since you're just going to use Sucker Punch/Pursuit/Night Slash most of the time?
 
I think you still want as much damage as possible on Brave Bird, because getting the first or second KO with Brave Bird is vital to get the damage boost. But I can see why Dread Plate would be interesting.
 
Nah Life Orb is pretty essential for the main set, without it either you're going to be unable to OHKO any defensively invested mons, or you won't be able to take out most average-bulk mons with Sucker Punch.

The other set worth a mention is the offensive SubRoost set. Sucker Punch / Brave Bird is pretty good in terms of coverage since the Steel nerf. Obviously there's a bunch more stuff that checks you, but I always felt that that set makes Honch much more dangerous early game because it's much harder to play around and force out without sustaining heavy damage - plus, against stall teams you won't just kill yourself with recoil.
 
Honchkrow can be so scary. Bring it in on a weakened Pokemon and threaten Sucker Punch. The opponent is put in a difficult position. Give Honckrow a Moxie Boost or switch out, hoping you have something to potentially take a Life Orb Brave Bird/Superpower coming off 125 base attack.

This is probably a dumb idea, but I wonder if an Assault Vest set could work to patch its defenses a little since it has Moxie for attack boosts.

The other set worth a mention is the offensive SubRoost set. Sucker Punch / Brave Bird is pretty good in terms of coverage since the Steel nerf. Obviously there's a bunch more stuff that checks you, but I always felt that that set makes Honch much more dangerous early game because it's much harder to play around and force out without sustaining heavy damage - plus, against stall teams you won't just kill yourself with recoil.

I've used this before. Bring it in on Aegislash in blade form = free sub.
 
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Haha been using Honchkrow for years and I like hearing new ideas.

So the sub-roost set is the same as the set I posted except with Substitute and Roost instead of Superpower and 4th move or are there other differences? If you don't mind you can write up a quick strategy guide for it and I'll add it to the top post.
 
Honchkrow's got pretty shit speed, so there is absolutely no reason to invest 252 EVs into speed rather than HP. Even then, you should just invest 248 into HP and 8 into Special Defense. I mean, Honckrow's got shitty defenses in the first place, but the HP investment really tends to help. Even with 252 Speed EVs, a lot of the OU tier still outspeeds you, so there's just no point to it.

Another thing I found absolutely ridiculous was the fact that you slash Foul Play on the only set you posted. No one's ever going to use Foul Play on Honchkrow. Honchkrow's got too many options for someone to think Foul Play's a good idea. Personally, I would de-slash Foul Play, and either slash Roost or Heat Wave (because Honchkrow can run a mixed attacker set as well).

Anyways, Honchkrow really gets a bad serving this generation because of it's slow speed, never being able to counter attack the Talonflame Brave Birds that are seen coming. If I'm correct, Honchkrow's D-Rank, which shows it has a small role in the OU. There's a reason behind that, and that's the fact that it's outclassed a bunch as a physical attacker (Diggersby, Staraptor, Talonflame, MegaDactyl). I wouldn't really use Honckrow in OU, but it has a nice spot in UU.
 
Honchkrow's got pretty shit speed, so there is absolutely no reason to invest 252 EVs into speed rather than HP. Even then, you should just invest 248 into HP and 8 into Special Defense. I mean, Honckrow's got shitty defenses in the first place, but the HP investment really tends to help. Even with 252 Speed EVs, a lot of the OU tier still outspeeds you, so there's just no point to it.

Another thing I found absolutely ridiculous was the fact that you slash Foul Play on the only set you posted. No one's ever going to use Foul Play on Honchkrow. Honchkrow's got too many options for someone to think Foul Play's a good idea. Personally, I would de-slash Foul Play, and either slash Roost or Heat Wave (because Honchkrow can run a mixed attacker set as well).

Anyways, Honchkrow really gets a bad serving this generation because of it's slow speed, never being able to counter attack the Talonflame Brave Birds that are seen coming. If I'm correct, Honchkrow's D-Rank, which shows it has a small role in the OU. There's a reason behind that, and that's the fact that it's outclassed a bunch as a physical attacker (Diggersby, Staraptor, Talonflame, MegaDactyl). I wouldn't really use Honckrow in OU, but it has a nice spot in UU.

I have to disagree. As much as Honchkrow's speed isn't high, you can't afford being slower than defensive Togekiss, Rotom W, Heatran and many many other threats. Giving him 248 HP isn't going to make him particularly bulky at all.

Foul Play is honestly not something I've tested myself, so I might be wrong about it. Why would you ever run Heat Wave? It's barely gonna do any damage and you don't want to waste any EV's on SAtk. The only reason Heat Wave was used back in Gen IV was to counter Skarmory and Foretress hard. Now it's not nearly as necessary with Sucker Punch available vs Steel-types. I can see Roost being useful though.

And no, I don't think he gets a bad serving. He may not be able to counter Talonflame (unless you somehow Baton Pass into him with an absurd amount of speed), but then as I said you can always build a team around Honchkrow that deals with Talonflame before Honckrow comes into play. This is why I said he's mostly a late game physical attacker. I mentioned the main conditions that need to be fulfilled before Honchkrow gets in, and I think that with a proper team in OU against your average OU team it's not wholly unrealistic. Get rid of OHKO priority Pokémon, get rid of other specific threats, damage or paralyze most enemy Pokémon to a certain extent and you're set. Easily achievable with a stall team for example.

Pokémon is not about single Pokémon beating everything in the metagame, it's about the unit.

"If I'm correct, his D-rank shows he has a small role in the OU metagame". Well that's because no one plays him, not because he's bad.

EDIT: sorry my laptop crashed as I was writing this, adding stuff to this post.
 
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I have to agree with The Shellder Smuggler on the HP and Spe debate. Honchcrow isn't outspeeding much, unless it's like Goodra (But who would bring Goodra out on Honchcrow unless it has Acid Armor?). Honchcrow has some decent HP.
In any case, I'm actually tempted to try a Super Luck, Scope Lens set with Night Slash. Probably wouldn't work too well, but I guess it could be a minor version of 100% critical hit Absol.
Is there any way a Nasty Plot or Choice Scarf set is viable? I want to see a Special set, but Heat Wave and Dark Pulse are really it's only options in the Special side, and Honchcrow is really frail to try setting up. Just some ideas though.
 
I have to agree with The Shellder Smuggler on the HP and Spe debate. Honchcrow isn't outspeeding much, unless it's like Goodra (But who would bring Goodra out on Honchcrow unless it has Acid Armor?). Honchcrow has some decent HP.
In any case, I'm actually tempted to try a Super Luck, Scope Lens set with Night Slash. Probably wouldn't work too well, but I guess it could be a minor version of 100% critical hit Absol.
Is there any way a Nasty Plot or Choice Scarf set is viable? I want to see a Special set, but Heat Wave and Dark Pulse are really it's only options in the Special side, and Honchcrow is really frail to try setting up. Just some ideas though.

The pay off for becoming more bulky is not nearly as big as the pay off for being faster than most of the slower Pokémon.

Problem with those two ideas is that there are so many much better Pokémon than Honchkrow at both crit abuse and Nasty Plot, while in a physical Sucker Punch set he is one of the best at what he does. I like to think of Honchkrow as a hipster Bisharp (fun fact: Honchkrow is always faster than Bisharp [except Scarf or Jolly vs Adamant] and beats him in a confrontation -> Sucker Punch deals around 44-52% to Honchkrow and Superpower OHKO's Bisharp).

I think Honchkrow is a bit too strong to be in UU but I guess I have to try and prove that somehow first. =p
 
I have to disagree. As much as Honchkrow's speed isn't high, you can't afford being slower than defensive Togekiss, Rotom W, Heatran and many many other threats. Giving him 248 HP isn't going to make him particularly bulky at all.
.

No, just don't even try to invest in speed, it justs wastes your EVs.

Foul Play is honestly not something I've tested myself, so I might be wrong about it. Why would you ever run Heat Wave? It's barely gonna do any damage and you don't want to waste any EV's on SAtk. The only reason Heat Wave was used back in Gen IV was to counter Skarmory and Foretress hard. Now it's not nearly as necessary with Sucker Punch available vs Steel-types. I can see Roost being useful though.

Why ever run heat wave?

4 SpA Life Orb Honchkrow Heat Wave vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Ferrothorn: 328-390 (93.1 - 110.7%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO

That's why.

And no, I don't think he gets a bad serving. He may not be able to counter Talonflame (unless you somehow Baton Pass into him with an absurd amount of speed), but then as I said you can always build a team around Honchkrow that deals with Talonflame before Honckrow comes into play. This is why I said he's mostly a late game physical attacker. I mentioned the main conditions that need to be fulfilled before Honchkrow gets in, and I think that with a proper team in OU against your average OU team it's not wholly unrealistic (get rid of OHKO priority Pokémon, get rid of other specific threats, damage or paralyze most enemy Pokémon to a certain extent and you're set. Easily achievable with a stall team for example.

He gets a bad serving, hands down. He dies to priority brave bird, is weak to SR, has trouble with Ice Shard, and dies easily to any neutral effective STAB attack.

It appears that you have very limited experience with Honchkrow, as you suggested FOUL PLAY on a set, and think Heat Wave is a bad move to use.
 
No, just don't even try to invest in speed, it justs wastes your EVs.



Why ever run heat wave?

4 SpA Life Orb Honchkrow Heat Wave vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Ferrothorn: 328-390 (93.1 - 110.7%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO

That's why.



He gets a bad serving, hands down. He dies to priority brave bird, is weak to SR, has trouble with Ice Shard, and dies easily to any neutral effective STAB attack.

It appears that you have very limited experience with Honchkrow, as you suggested FOUL PLAY on a set, and think Heat Wave is a bad move to use.

Ok for Heat Wave.

But you're not really answering my arguments on Speed EV's nor on the possibility of dealing with his counters in the early game.

If you're slower than a wall you can't hit them with Brave Bird before they hit you. You'll probably die because you're squishy anyway. The speed is more than necessary.

And please drop the Foul Play thing, I'm removing it from the thread. I thought I wanted to add a few more options and went on to add something I have never really tried before so my bad there.
 
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Alternate bulky spread of 194 HP / 252 Atk / 64 Spe Adamant is worth a mention. You don't sacrifice attack power, have enough speed to edge out min speed Heatran and those speedcreeping it, and the HP investment is substantial enough to reduce recoil significantly and let you take a couple of weak hits.
 
Honchkrow always needs some sort of Speed investment, its too frail to make any sort of use out of investment to its bulk, and it's fast enough to outspeed a solid number of Pokemon that might otherwise get an advantage, like Venusaur or Mandibuzz.

Last moveslot should go to Night Slash for a reliable Dark move, Heat Wave for Skarmory, or Pursuit for, well, Pursuit. Imo Pursuit is one of the better options because you can create those damned if you do, damned if you don't situations with Pursuit and Sucker Punch, which is terrifying if you can get it right.
 
Alternate bulky spread of 194 HP / 252 Atk / 64 Spe Adamant is worth a mention. You don't sacrifice attack power, have enough speed to edge out min speed Heatran and those speedcreeping it, and the HP investment is substantial enough to reduce recoil significantly and let you take a couple of weak hits.

Yeah, use this spread. Get the best of both worlds.

Thank god for Heat Wave.

Thank god for no Foul Play.

But still 252 spd EVs...
 
Honchkrow's got pretty shit speed, so there is absolutely no reason to invest 252 EVs into speed rather than HP. Even then, you should just invest 248 into HP and 8 into Special Defense. I mean, Honckrow's got shitty defenses in the first place, but the HP investment really tends to help. Even with 252 Speed EVs, a lot of the OU tier still outspeeds you, so there's just no point to it.
I don't understand the point in investing speed on a Bisharp, then. Or an offensive Heatran. Or any offensive Pokemon in the 70s speed tier.

That statement makes no sense lol. Honchkrow is an offensive 'mon and therefore requires offensive EVs, and 252 Speed lets it at least outpace Bisharp, 76 Speed Tyranitar, Heatran, Rotom-W, most walls/support mons like Deo-D, Mandibuzz, Gliscor, Lando-T etc.
 
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I don't understand the point in investing speed on a Bisharp, then. Or an offensive Heatran. Or any offensive Pokemon in the 70s speed tier.

That statement makes no sense lol. Honchkrow is an offensive 'mon and therefore requires offensive moves, and 252 Speed lets it at least outpace Bisharp, 76 Speed Tyranitar, Heatran, Rotom-W, most walls/support mons like Deo-D, Mandibuzz, Gliscor, Lando-T etc.

Er...Rotom-W? 220 speed EVs with a timid nature outspeeds 252 timid Honchkrow. Please get your facts together before you start trying to show up in this manner.
 
The only Rotom variants that run speed use Scarf/Specs+Trick, which is far less common than no speed defensive sets. Having to rely on Sucker Punch vs faster walls equals death for Honchkrow, as it will easily be played around by non-attack moves. Tailwind with Life Orb and Night Slash/Brave Bird/Superpower can make for a decent end game sweeper, and you can opt to run Sucker Punch over Nightslash to outpace everything but Extremespeed users. I'd hardly call this reliable however. Honchkrow is what you might call 'unreliable', C- rank at best. Given the proper circumstances it can perform its job, but it's usually involves a lot of unnecessary hassle and support to perform that role at any rate deemed consistent that many other pokemon couldn't perform better. If you swapped it's SpA stat with its Speed, then you'd have something to consider.
 
I'd suggest this for the main honchkrow set:

Honchkrow @ Life Orb
Ability: Moxie
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
Adamant Nature
- Sucker Punch
- Brave Bird
- Night Slash
- Pursuit/Superpower/Roost/Heat Wave

Night Slash is really non-optional imo, you never wanna be in a situation where you need a reliable dark STAB and you have only pursuit and sucker punch, especially with a lot of faster priorities flying around.
Also this is an optional spread for Honchkrow- 32 Hp/ 252 Atk / 224 Spd
That allows him to outpace slow versions of latias and pursuit trap for a near guaranteed ohko, especially if latias switched in to defog
252 Atk Life Orb Honchkrow Pursuit vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Latias: 361-429 (99.1 - 117.8%)

Not sure if honchkrow really has a place in ou though. hes insanely good in uu right now and I can't think of many reasons to use him over bisharp here, unless you are afraid of stacking fire / fighting weaknesses.. trying to pursuit trap stuff with honchkrow will likely get you punched in the face which is bad news when honchkrow usually wants to use life orb and high recoil moves. I would say its probably more beneficial for honchkrow's survivability to actually have some speed in order to not have to take too many hits, as well as cover more threats with sucker punch
 
Shellder, not sure if anyone told you, but from what I can see you have a horrible habit of nitpicking. Someone presents to you lots of arguments and examples, then all you do is point out one thing you believe to be a mistake and insult them.

"Please get your facts together before you start trying to show up in this manner."

Who do you think you are, exactly?

I may be new to those boards, but this kind of behavior you exhibit is really rude and close minded. I won't question your knowledge. One thing is certain though, you need to chill out.

I don't care whether Honchkrow is OU or UU or whatever. I'm just presenting my opinion on him as a Pokémon and why I think he's viable in the OU tier, not forcing it down anyone's throat or anything. And you shouldn't either. Whether people agree with me or not is completely up to them. But berating people won't make your opinions more valuable or legitimate, it'll only make you look like a complete douche.

Thank you for your input, but please have some humility.
 
Thanks for writing this, I never knew Honchkrow had this kind of late-game potential. As someone who loves bisharp, I'm definitely down to make a team around this underrated guy. If I have one question, it's what to run on the fourth move slot. I don't really see how roost and pursuit would be that useful considering the bird's frailness. What's the best choice, night slash for a reliable dark-STAB or heat wave to kill stuff like scizor, ferro... If only it got knock off.
 
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