Honchkrow

[Don Honchkrorleone]

This thread is for competitive discussion. Sorry if there's another thread about this pokémon, but I couldn't find any.

Honchkrow #430
Type: Dark/Flying
Egg Group: Flying
Gender Ratio: 50:50
Stats: 100 HP/125 Atk/52 Def/105 Sp.Atk/52 Sp.Def/71 Spe
Abilities: Insomnia: Prevents this pokémon from sleeping.
Super Luck: Raises the Critical Hit ratio of the moves.
Overconfidence (DW): Raises Atk when the opponent is knocked out

Moves:

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New moves in Italic

Lv.-: Astonish
Lv.-: Pursuit
Lv.-: Haze
Lv.-: Wing Attack
Lv.25: Swagger
Lv.35: Nasty Plot
Lv.45: Trickery (Dark Physical, 95BP, 15PP, 100% hit, The higher opponent's Atk stat, higher the damage)
Lv.55: Night Slash
Lv.65: Postpone (Dark Status, 15PP, 100% hit, Forces the opponent to attack last in that turn)
Lv.75: Dark Pulse

TMs:

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TM04: Calm Mind
TM06: Toxic
TM10: Hidden Power
TM11: Sunny Day
TM12: Taunt
TM15: Hyper Beam
TM17: Protect
TM18: Rain Dance
TM21: Frustration
TM27: Return
TM29: Psychic
TM30: Shadow Ball
TM32: Double Team
TM40: Aerial Ace
TM41: Torment
TM42: Facade
TM44: Rest
TM45: Attract
TM46: Thief
TM48: Canon/Troll/Sing A Round (Normal special, 60BP, 15PP, 100% hit, more powerful if an ally used it)
TM59: Complete Burn (Fire Special, 30BP, 15PP, 100% hit, destroy the opponent's berries)
TM60: Postpone (Dark Status, 15PP, 100% hit, Forces the opponent to attack last in that turn)
TM63: Embargo
TM66: Payback
TM67: Vengeance (Normal Physical, 70BP, 5PP, 100% hit, power increased if a teammate fainted this turn)
TM68: Giga Impact
TM73: Thunder Wave
TM77: Psych Up
TM85: Dream Eater
TM87: Swagger
TM88: Pluck
TM90: Substitute
TM95: Bark Out (Dark Special, 55BP, 15PP, 95% hit, Lower the foe's Sp.Atk)
HM02: Fly

Breeding

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Brave Bird
Whirlwind
Confuse Ray
Perish Song
Roost
Drill Peck
Mirror Move
Wing Attack
Assurance
Sky Attack
Screech
Psycho Shift

Pre-evolution only moves:

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Peck
Night Shade
Faint Attack
Mean Look
Tailwind
Sucker Punch

Previous generations only moves:

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Secret Power
Steel Wing
Snatch
Endure
Captivate
Sleep Talk
Natural Gift
Air Cutter
Superpower
Heat Wave
Ominous Wind
Spite
Twister
Mud-Slap
Uproar
Swift
Icy Wind
Double-Edge
Mimic
Snore

Overview:

Ah, Honchkrow, my favorite poké, the lord of the Flyings, you return with both a good and a bad thing in this new generation. First, let's talk about good things... well, only two to tell you the truth. The first good thing it got is his new STAB move, Trickery, a 95BP which hits stronger if the foe has a high attack (good for the new clay ghost). Sure, it will struggle to find a moveslot with the occasional but strong Sucker Punch, the Super Luck's best friend Night Slash and the ever useful Pursuit, but Trickery is awesome due the amount of heavy physical hitters that Gen V introduced. The other good thing is the wish of all the physical attackers: Overconfidence, with raises its fearsome 125 Atk every time it KOes a foe, which is common to happen. Imagine this combined with Sucker Punch, Brave Bird, Heat Wave and Superpower...

Until you realize that Heat Wave and, mosty important, Superpower are from PtHGSS Move Tutor, therefore, illegal with Overconfidence. Really, if the american eagle can learn Superpower by leveling up, why the italian crow can't learn even by breeding? This is the start of the bad news. Want more bad news: Sure. Honchkrow gained absolutely nothing useful aside the things mentioned earlier, while most of the metagame changed quite a lot. And while its 125/105 attacking stats are good, 100/52/52 defenses with only 71 Spe won't protect him from his jugdement by the new beastial attackers.

Overall, Honchkrow is solid. Just pick his strenghs and be happy before the opponent put you to sleep with fishes, capisce?

Possible movesets I can remember now:

Mafia chooses and you cannot disagree, capisce?

@Choice Scarf/Choice Band
Ability: Super Luck/Insomnia
Jolly Nature/Naive Nature
Evs: 252 Atk/4 Sp.Atk/252 Spe

~ Brave Bird
~ Trickery/Sucker Punch
~ Superpower
~ Pursuit/Heat Wave

71 base Spe is bad for a potent and frail attacker, but Choice Scarf can help a bit. The idea is attack until you die (it can occur earlier than you can think) and hopefully taking something with you. Your main STAB is Brave Bird, a strong and reliable kamikaze attack that can destroy great part of the metagame. The Dark STAB is trickier to decide, but the advantages of Trickery are really helpful when dealing with something like Hihidaruma, Goruggo and Ononokusu, as well others that have a high Atk but considerably low bulky. Sucker Punch is also here as you won't be the fastest thing around sometimes, even with a Scarf. Superpower takes care (most) of the Steel-types that may switch into our beloved mafia boss bird. Too bad it's illegal with Overconfidence. The last move is what you want to do. Pursuit destroys that darn boosting Psychics and Ghosts that CMed (or something else) in your previous pokémon face, while Heat Wave grants coverage and it's a nice way to damage physically defensive ones, as most of them are weak to Fire. Works with Choice Band too. If you opt for CB, then consider Sucker Punch and forget about Heat Wave, and put the Sp.Atk Evs somewhere else.

The boss is making a scheme about what he should do with the trash

@Life Orb
Ability: Super Luck
Naive Nature/Timid Nature
Evs: 4 Atk/252 Sp.Atk/252 Spe

~ Nasty Plot
~ Dark Pulse
~ Heat Wave
~ Superpower/HP Flying

Anyone that has read Smogon's analysis about Honchkrow know this high risk, high reward set. First, Nasty Plot. Then, attack as there's no tomorrow with your STAB Dark Pulse and everything else you have. Heat Wave is a must to defeat most of the Steels that infest the metagame. Superpower is for Blissey, Heatran and other things that doesn't take muck by DarkWave combo (Loved this name). If you have other things to handle the aforementioned treats, go HP Flying for STAB.

What happens if you mix Camorra and Yakuza?

@Life Orb
Ability: Super Luck/Insomnia
Naughty Nature/Naive Nature
Evs: 252 Atk/4 Sp.Atk/252 Spe

~ Brave Bird
~ Sucker Punch
~ Superpower
~ Heat Wave

A clone of Smogon's Life Orb Honchkrow. Need I to explain?

The song of the don. Blessed by St. Pavarotti

@Focus Sash/Leftovers
Ability: Insomnia
Jolly Nature
Evs: 4 HP/252 Def/252 Spe

~ Mean Look
~ Perish Song
~ Protect/Thunder Wave/Fly
~ Sucker Punch/Taunt/Confuse Ray

Yes. I am that stupid to put a defensive set in a paper like Honchkrow, but it can do it quite well. First Perish Song hoping for a switch, second Mean Look, then it's up to you (New York, New York. Hahaha!). You can Protect to stall, T-Wave to paralyze and Fly to stall and bypass Taunt. Lastly you can use Sucker Punch to attack a faster foe or Taunt to make him attack (don't be silly taunting all-out attackers, right?). Great pokémon to pair up with Shadow Tag Shandeera.

"Confident Crow" courtesy of MF HOUNDOOM
overconfidence (earthquake spiral) @ life orb
adamant - 252 atk, 252 spe, 4 hp
- brave bird
- sucker punch
- pursuit
- tailwind/roost/taunt/Mirror Move

Thanks MF HOUNDOOM for this set. I've understood the idea, and is the best set to use with Overconfidence. Brave Bird and Sucker Punch are excellent STABs to have. Pursuit is a unexpcted in Honchkrow, since the foe will almost always switch to avoid Sucker Punch. The last move is a tricky choice. Tailwind helps supporting your team and Honchkrow, Roost keeps Honch alive for some more turns (good luck), Taunt makes Sucker Punch effective and destroy non-attacking walls like Shuckle, and finally Mirror Move, a suggestion of myself, can be useful rebounding some not so effective attacks that were aimed at Honchkrow.

Feel free to discuss, post movesets and moderators, to close if there's something wrong.

 

[Murkglow]

Personally I'm not a fan of Overconfidence but Honch lacks a clearly better ability (it's others aren't terrible though of course) so I could actually see it used here...
Of course that's not taking into consideration the moves lost getting it. Losing Superpower is pretty important and the gain just doesn't seem to make up for it.

 

[Human]

Honchkrow works well on a TR team, it has great stats for it and low speed. I didn't come up with a great EV spread yet (waiting for the damage calculator to work), but with Roobushin fighting attacks are not too necessary and Roobushin has both the power and moveset to be usable in TR, so those two work well together, would deserve a mention in the additional comments of the Life Orb set.

Sucker Punch / Dark Pulse / Brave Bird / Heat Wave is what I am using as the coverage it gives is pretty good and pokemon like Heatran can't do too much to Slowbro (who may just end up getting a great ability, Regeneration, or revenge kill with Roobushin).

 

[Darkamber8828]

^Superpower is greater than sucker punch.

Also, Honchkrow is far too frail to Perish Trap.

Also, Choiced Sucker Punch is a no-no, always, always, always.

 

[MF HOUNDOOM]

After testing a bit on PO (they have Gen V servers), I can say that overconfidence Honchkrow is NOT a gimmick. It does still get walled by a fair few things, but it can also rip unprepared teams apart and power its way through even sturdy resists if it picks up a boost or two. I tried this set out just for shits and giggles, but it has proven to be surprisingly effective, even scoring himself a few standalone sweeps. Since it lacks coverage moves of any kind, you have to try to merge a few different roles into one:

"Confident Crow"
overconfidence (earthquake spiral) @ life orb
adamant - 252 atk, 252 spe, 4 hp
- brave bird
- sucker punch
- pursuit
- tailwind/roost/taunt

So far, I've found the real key to this set is pursuit. Because Krow very rarely carries pursuit, people will often switch out expecting a sucker punch, only to become the unlucky means to an attack boost. This works VERY well against scarf Shandera, especially if you switch in after it has used shadow ball or energy ball. Honch with +1, a life orb, a 120 BP STAB, and a powerful priority attack is nothing to sleep on. You can opt to go with 4 less speed EVs, as you still outrun max-speed neutral base 70s, though I went with 252 just to speed tie with other Honchkrows. You can also go light on the speed and stock up on HP EVs if you plan to make Honchkrow into a full-out tailwind sweeper.

The real success of this set depends on what your opponent brings in after the initial KO. A great many things that used to be able to take a life orb sucker punch are now OHKO'd, so many of Krow's old counters are obsolete. If your opponent makes a bad switch, you can quickly be sitting at +2 attack. Most slow walls that lack a flying resist are also at risk of getting knocked out. At this point, it becomes almost impossible to wall Honhckrow, even with his limited attacking options. The game then just becomes an exponential power climb until Honchkrow either knocks itself out or gets smacked with a faster priority attack. And even if you do eventually get walled by something, you almost always leave a huge dent in the opposing team.

For those that try to dodge sucker punch with a stat-boosting move or substitute or something, you have tailwind and roost. Both are useful, since Honchkrow tends to KO itself with recoil damage more often than not. Tailwind lets you double your team's speed for 4 turns, giving Honchkrow more opportunity's to score KOs with brave bird. The recoil damage becomes a non-issue, since even if you knock yourself out quickly, your next pokemon in has double speed for the remaining turns of tailwind. Roost is useful for keeping Honchkrow alive, and he can get some opportunities to use it for free when people try to dodge sucker punch. I personally prefer tailwind, but they're both quite usable. Taunt is also an option, though I can't really report on its viability as I haven't tried it out myself.

I use this alongside a magic mirror Espeon with screens/psychic/wish, as well as a subseed/glare/leaf storm perversity Jaroda. Both make great partners, as they provide Krow with wish support, extra bulk, and paralysis support.

 

[stickid]

Night Slash should always be used with Super Luck for the lols factor.

Honchkrow honestly hasn't changed much ):

 

[the voice of reason]

"Confident Crow"
overconfidence (earthquake spiral) @ life orb
adamant - 252 atk, 252 spe, 4 hp
- brave bird
- sucker punch
- pursuit
- tailwind/roost/taunt

Very nice. Since he might not really be able to deal with bulky pokemon that switch in, could featherdance be some bizarre way to get a safe switch-in for one of your pokes and maintain momentum? I know it sounds extremely gimmicky, and maybe confuse ray would work just as well, but...

 

[Don Honchkrorleone]

After testing a bit on PO (they have Gen V servers), I can say that overconfidence Honchkrow is NOT a gimmick. It does still get walled by a fair few things, but it can also rip unprepared teams apart and power its way through even sturdy resists if it picks up a boost or two. I tried this set out just for shits and giggles, but it has proven to be surprisingly effective, even scoring himself a few standalone sweeps. Since it lacks coverage moves of any kind, you have to try to merge a few different roles into one:

"Confident Crow"
overconfidence (earthquake spiral) @ life orb
adamant - 252 atk, 252 spe, 4 hp
- brave bird
- sucker punch
- pursuit
- tailwind/roost/taunt

Good set. I'll be posting it in the OP. Mirror Move would also make this set a bit more viable.

 

[Master of Llamas]

"Confident Crow"

I would suggest using Magnezone as a partner, as bulky Steels like Skarmory wall this set.

 

[breh]

"Confident Crow" courtesy of MF HOUNDOOM
Overconfidence (earthquake spiral) @ Life Orb
Adamant - 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
- Brave Bird
- Sucker Punch
- Pursuit
- Tailwind/Roost/Taunt/Mirror Move

I like this set, but what's up with the last slot? Roost and Taunt seem like fine options but Mirror Move and Tailwind are useless (in singles at least); if you really want more slashes I suggest Drill Peck and possibly Thunder Wave, but personally I think it should just be Roost/Taunt.

 

[MF HOUNDOOM]

I like this set, but what's up with the last slot? Roost and Taunt seem like fine options but Mirror Move and Tailwind are useless (in singles at least); if you really want more slashes I suggest Drill Peck and possibly Thunder Wave, but personally I think it should just be Roost/Taunt.

I've used tailwind effectively a few times, but it's still very situational. I find its most effective to use it as a scouting tool, whenever Honchkrow can't KO a fleeing Pokemon with pursuit. If the switch-in was relying on its speed to counter you, brave bird will often KO it. If it's something like a bulky steel type, then you can quickly switch out to something that threatens it and still make use of tailwind's speed boost.

The thing is, all of Honchkrow's options for the last slot are situational. Brave bird hits so hard that you'll almost never want to use anything else if you're faster. Substitute users are the biggest pains for this set (aside from stuff like Skarmory), so thunder wave and taunt are both still crappy most of the time. Using them on something faster than you that can use substitute is pointless, since you can't stop your opponent from accomplishing his goal. I find taunt is only good for stopping things from recovering health, and from stopping incredibly bulky ghosts like Dusclops and Desukan from setting you on fire. Thunder wave would really only have use as a scouting tool, but tailwind is still perhaps better for this, since it promotes a sweep instead of just crippling one pokemon.

 

[The Pokemon Pimp]

I love Honchkrow, but I agree with the fact that it really hasn't changed much. Assuming Honch will eventually get Superpower back, the only new idea is a ScarfKrow with Overconfidence. That way at least Honch can clean up late game with increasingly powerful STABs or Superpower without an Attack drop.

I can't wait for the battle in which my Scarfed Honchkrow rapes three or four pokemon with Superpower...

 

[SlyShady]

I LOVE Overconfidence. It works fantastically on things like Warubiaru, Mence, and Hera. If Honchy could at the very least keep Superpower, Overconfidence would be a SICK ability on it. Overconfidence would work very well with Superpower since it could offset the Attack drop from it. Oh well. Super Luck and Insomnia are still 2 decent abilities.

 

[Styxtap]

I agree with Overconfidence excitement! Honchkrow almost always kills 2-4 of my opponents Pokemon. This is pretty much a guaranteed attack boost at least once.

 

[lumpor]

I was actually very succesfull with an overconfident honchcrow. After about 3 boosts, the opponent could do nothing. His last pokemon has a shell break omastar with half his hp left. He shell breaked 3 times before attacking, while I just spammed sucker punch, and after 3 breaks he attacked, but he knew he had already lost.

He probably didn't know about sucker punches low pp though.

Its frailty is incredibly annoying though, and stuff like cresselia/uxie never attack, so you'll have to pursuit them or something, while they paralyze you/screen you.

 

[Don Honchkrorleone]

I was actually very succesfull with an overconfident honchcrow. After about 3 boosts, the opponent could do nothing. His last pokemon has a shell break omastar with half his hp left. He shell breaked 3 times before attacking, while I just spammed sucker punch, and after 3 breaks he attacked, but he knew he had already lost.

He probably didn't know about sucker punches low pp though.

Its frailty is incredibly annoying though, and stuff like cresselia/uxie never attack, so you'll have to pursuit them or something, while they paralyze you/screen you.

That's why Taunt exists. If Cress/Uxie has no attack or only Psychic, they'll have to switch, making Pursuit strong enough to KO them, boosting his Atk because of Overconfidence.

 

[Forsety]

Honchkrow got trolled pretty bad imo this gen, honestly gaining Overconfidence but losing Superpower and Heatwave? The entity of his coverage is now entirely resisted by steels and Tyrannitar? Thats pretty epic trolling, as it stands I still think Gen 4 Honchkrow with Insomnia is the way to go.

 

[Green Thunder]

Honchkrow got trolled pretty bad imo this gen, honestly gaining Overconfidence but losing Superpower and Heatwave? The entity of his coverage is now entirely resisted by steels and Tyrannitar? Thats pretty epic trolling, as it stands I still think Gen 4 Honchkrow with Insomnia is the way to go.

That's why we use it late game after we killed all steel and rock types(a certain fire/ghost can do that)

 

[Don Honchkrorleone]

Honchkrow got trolled pretty bad imo this gen, honestly gaining Overconfidence but losing Superpower and Heatwave? The entity of his coverage is now entirely resisted by steels and Tyrannitar? Thats pretty epic trolling, as it stands I still think Gen 4 Honchkrow with Insomnia is the way to go.

There's always Hitmontop, who is one of, if not the best partner to Honchkrow. Removes (most) Steel-types and Tyranitar with a powerful Fighting move while Spins away the SR.

 

[Forsety]

I wouldn't really worry too much about the SR tbh, having Roost as an option eases that quite alot and can usually be fitted in.

But my point still stands that Superpower and Heatwave are what made Honchkrow truly fearsome in Gen 4 and still contribute immensely in Gen 5 by simply even running one of the moves. There are so many things that Honchkrow can break through in Gen 5 with his Gen 4 set that he wouldn't be able to normally and denying him his attack boosts + his coverage moves is just making fun of him.

That's why we use it late game after we killed all steel and rock types(a certain fire/ghost can do that)

Not in Wifi mode it doesn't, it gets trapped and raped quite easily.

 

[SlyShady]

That's why we use it late game after we killed all steel and rock types(a certain fire/ghost can do that)

Shanderaa can't kill T-Tar. Not without Specs and the perfect move at least.

 

[The Pokemon Pimp]

Shanderaa can't kill T-Tar. Not without Specs and the perfect move at least.

Agreed. The only think I could think of is HP Fighting, but I doubt that KOs (assuming Ttar has Sand Stream going)

 

[Charlemagne]

It OHKOs 0/0 Tyranitar in a Sandstorm.

Timid Shandera's Specs HP Fighting: 97.3%-114.9%
Modest Shandera's Specs HP Fighting: 106.7-126.6%

 

[lumpor]

I wouldn't really worry too much about the SR tbh, having Roost as an option eases that quite alot and can usually be fitted in.

You'll basically HAVE to roost when the opponent uses aromatherapy or something.

 

[Sharpteeth]

It OHKOs 0/0 Tyranitar in a Sandstorm.

Timid Shandera's Specs HP Fighting: 97.3%-114.9%
Modest Shandera's Specs HP Fighting: 106.7-126.6%

Except if it has Specs, it would have to have used HP Fighting the turn prior...which is unlikely to happen, since you carry HP Fighting only for TTar. And you can't even catch Tar on the switch-in since the opponent can't switch. So unless the opponent has multiple 4x Fighting weak or Rock Pokemons, (neutral Flamethrower is stronger than 2x HP Fighting on Dark Types), you're unlikely to actually kill TTar with Specs HP.