XY OU If you hit a wall, hit it hard!

[Dreamish_]

Hi there, I've decided to come to the RMT side of Smogon to get some advice and whatnot for a team I've fallen in love with, since its inception was kind of unexpected. I've lurked since forever so and made an abysmal team eons ago, but hopefully this one won't be quite as traumatically bad.

So basically, my friends and I had a miniature competition that required one of our favourite mons from each gen. I decided to take inspiration from the "bird spam" approach and picked up a multitude of wallbreaker special attackers and hope for the best. Turns out it's been working super well, I just want to make sure I've optimised it and haven't missed anything. I'm not a ultra high rated player by any means but I didn't come back to Pokemon until too long ago, so bear with me.

Also ways I can make this RMT look prettier would be greatly appreciated as I suck at making this kind of stuff.

I don't know how to spoiler things.. please help.

TEAMBUILDING PROCESS THAT REALLY WANTS TO BE SPOILERED:

So Starmie has been my favourite mon since I first got ruby back in '95 and will be forever. It's fortunate that it also can fit almost any team and forms the first part of the special attacker spam. Also Rapid Spin.

Next comes Houndoom (Mega). I loved the design and think it's a tad underrated in terms of how cheeky base 115 speed is on a set up sweeper.

Gardevoir was my next choice as I have made a few teams abusing the assumption that it's mega and not scarfed which is fun.

I needed a physical wallbreaker and some form of tempo grabber so I decided on Staraptor, which also gets props for being the first generic bird actually worth something.

Ferrothorn was a easy choice for the good of the team I needed some form of defensive mon and Stealth Rock setter, and so I had to pick it up.

Lastly I have Dragalge, there's a lot of reasoning behind this which is possibly dumb but in practice it's been working super well.

Onto the team and reasons and things!

Starmie@Life Orb
Timid Nature, Analytic
EVs: 4HP/252SpA/252Spe
Hydro Pump/Thunderbolt/Psyshock/Rapid Spin
​

Starmie has been a staple in OU since forever now, and having some form of hazard removal is quintessential with entire teams being dedicated to taxing your health with all the shit they set up. With a team so dedicated to wallbreaking I absolutely needed my own hazards as well, since the idea is to eventually power through. It also helps that Analytic Starmie hits like a truck with almost unfair coverage. This is my go-to check for a myriad of things like Gyarados, Keldeo, Landorus and whatnot.

.

Houndoom-Mega@Houndoominite
Timid Nature, Flash Fire
EVs: 40HP/8Def/208SpA/252Spe
Nasty Plot/Fire Blast/Dark Pulse/Taunt​

Straight from Smogon since I suck at theorycrafting, hence why I'm here. This is my primary win condition, getting to a point where I can bring this in, Nasty Plot up and abuse that speed tier. Taunt is to fuck up the pink blobs and grab free set-ups against supportive mons, dual STAB because they hit like a truck and cover most things anyway. I tend to abuse the fact that Houndoom almost instantaneously forces a switch into a counter since it gets out of control quite quickly. This allows it to act as a surprisingly effective lure, which is pretty sexy on a set-up sweeper.

Gardevoir@Choice Scarf
Modest Nature, Trace
EVs: 4HP/252SpA/252Spe
Moonblast/Psyshock/Energy Ball/Trick
​

So Gardevoir was borne out of synergy, with its ability to take on fighting attacks with ease, forming a Drag/Steel/Fairy core, and providing some essential coverage I was lacking, all the while being able to destroy a wall with a well timed Trick. It catches a lot of people off guard, as regular Gardevoir still hits decently hard, and can outspeed base 127's (IIRC) allowing for a lot of significant ends to things like CM Keldeo, Landorus with a bit of prior damage, Talonflames locked into Flare Blitz etc. Using Energy Ball for now to act as a surprise vs some mons like Quagsire.

Staraptor@Choice Scarf
Adamant Nature, Reckless
EVs: 4hp/252Atk/252Spe
Brave Bird/Close Combat/Double-Edge/U-turn
​

I have fallen in love with this bird. If I were to name an MVP I'd honestly say Staraptor would be it. A fantastic lead that almost always forces a switch, between it, Houndoom and Ferro I have a reliable lead against almost anything. It's a great scout, does immense damage, and closed some more coverage problems all while having nifty immunities to both Ghost and Ground. With Starmie in the wings (heh) it generally doesn't get SR'ed to oblivion, which is a huge boon as this thing OHKO's almost anything I need it to. StI've reverted back to D-Edge because it's actually useful I was just silly.

Ferrothorn@Leftovers
Brave Nature, Iron Barbs
EVs: 252HP/88Def/168SpDef
Stealth Rock/Leech Seed/Gyro Ball/Protect
​

Once against standard build, save for the Brave nature. This is because I'm lazy and couldn't be bothered to breed another god damn Ferroseed and it was good enough. This mon is glue for the team, it walls a plethora of things everyone knows about, provides an awesome fairy switch-in, gets my rocks up, forces switches with Leech Seed, all the while wearing down mons between the rocks, the seeds, and the barbs. It's the second part of the Drag/Steel/Fairy combo and has resistances most mons would die for. I'm not overly sure what else to say about it, it's my dedicated mixed wall because most of my other "walling" comes from resisting and threatening the opponent out.

Dragalge@Black Sludge
Modest Nature, Adaptability
EVs: 228HP/252SpA/28Spe
Draco Meteor/Sludge Wave/Focus Blast/Toxic Spikes
​

Dragalge provides a few very important things to the team. First it hits like a truck. Like several trucks actually. Secondly it provides more resistances I desperately needed, particularly to Bug and Electric which otherwise made me relatively susceptible to VoltTurn and whatnot. Toxic Spikes was something I was hesitant to take, as I loved Specs'ing shit with totally reasonable damage, but it grew on me as the idea of bonus chip damage at 1 layer, and a timer at 2 layers made wallbreaking for the rest of the team that much easier. This thing murders fairies, can opt to set-up its spikes or drop a nuke on whatever is going to switch into it, making it highly versatile while still being relatively tanky for such a hard hitter. This is my answer to Scarfed Keldeo, most Special attackers without super effective hits, Heatran, and a last line of defense against Tyranitar on the premise Dragalge is healthy. It's right at home on this team, and acts as the specially defensive version of Ferrothorn more often than not while being able to nuke on command.

I'll be making a threatlist soon enough, but I've noticed priority can be an issue, as well as some things like Charizard-X. Maybe it's because I'm only in 1500-1600 area but I haven't had too many other things stand out as immense issues. That's why I'm here I suppose.

That about wraps it up. Any help is, of course, appreciated, and will be mentioned at my funeral, or something. That sentence had too many commas. Thanks in advance!

 

[MaChew94]

I was drawn here by the title to be quite honest; I'd just finished playing a game of her, so it stood at to me in bold. Good to see a fellow player. So what you've built is a sort of hyper offensive team. I'm not sure it's a legit wall break team as you have 1 set up mon, but it still looks cool. I might have to try it :p

I can see a few things off the bat: firstly, Heatran can give this team some trouble, so ensure your Staraptor is healthy and alive, as that's your primary counter, though it only hits for around 61% of it's health on a specially defensive trained set, and it returns with a 50% damage stone egde, which cripples your Stary after Stealth Rock damage. It's great for t-tar, and would probably OHKO it, but you need a second counter to steel types like Heatran, as Focus blast is a little touch-and-go, but that's only a suggestion; you've played the team. If you've beaten Heatrans with this team then fair enough, I'm just picking up on what I can see. After looking at it, your Starmie's Hydro pump hits a sp.def one for around 80%, so ensure you keep those healthy, as it can cripple your team if you're not careful.

Next, what's Starmie's ice beam hitting that your other mons don't cover? Gard has fairy, Starmie has T-bolt for flying. I'd swap that out for a psyshock. I know you have it on your Gard, but this turns your Starmie into a prime Keldeo check, taking at most 58% damage from spec'd hydro pump while you outspeed and retaliate with a 92% psyshock, an OHKO after SR damage. That's pretty huge, so I'd drop ice beam - it isn't really doing much for the team.

You have no Earthquake, and a HP ice Raikou can kill Draglage, Starmie and Staraptor with relative ease, outspeeding the first two and outdamaging the latter, forcing you to switch out, probably to ferrothorn. This makes ferro your primary electric tank, switching in, setting up leech seed, healing with lefotvers etc so make sure you keep it alive as it's going to see some use, with the increase of popularity from specs Raikou/Rotom-W. I really don't know what to suggest here, as none of your team can learn decent ground attacks. Your best bet is to use Ferro, and maybe run a protect / leech seed / Stealth rock / gyro ball set, healing off Leech/Leftovers and protecting where necessary. See if you can slot in a ground move; your switch-ins to fast electric types are really limited, and even more so from Mega Manectric, who can learn flamethrower.

So, really, I'm just pointing out mons and types that can really harm you. Your team looks great, though, and you can probably muddle through with your range of sweepers, though you could make life easier for yourself by covering more types :p you said yourself Dragalge was a strange pick; while it's completely viable, a Garchomp variant would perhaps fit this team better, giving you stronger dragon attacks and access to Earthquake. Failing that, a Mold Breaker Lum Berry Haxorus can do the job for you, smashing things like Multiscale Dragonite and Levitate Rotom-W and scoring some really neat OHKOs.

One last thing; beware bullet Punch Scizors - the amount of times I've OHKO'd Mega Gardevoirs with that thing. If you see it, run!

Again, great looking team, have fun with it, and I've got to like it for the title! n_n

 

[Dreamish_]

I was drawn here by the title to be quite honest; I'd just finished playing a game of her, so it stood at to me in bold. Good to see a fellow player. So what you've built is a sort of hyper offensive team. I'm not sure it's a legit wall break team as you have 1 set up mon, but it still looks cool. I might have to try it :p

I can see a few things off the bat: firstly, Heatran can give this team some trouble, so ensure your Staraptor is healthy and alive, as that's your primary counter, though it only hits for around 61% of it's health on a specially defensive trained set, and it returns with a 50% damage stone egde, which cripples your Stary after Stealth Rock damage. It's great for t-tar, and would probably OHKO it, but you need a second counter to steel types like Heatran, as Focus blast is a little touch-and-go, but that's only a suggestion; you've played the team. If you've beaten Heatrans with this team then fair enough, I'm just picking up on what I can see. After looking at it, your Starmie's Hydro pump hits a sp.def one for around 80%, so ensure you keep those healthy, as it can cripple your team if you're not careful.

Next, what's Starmie's ice beam hitting that your other mons don't cover? Gard has fairy, Starmie has T-bolt for flying. I'd swap that out for a psyshock. I know you have it on your Gard, but this turns your Starmie into a prime Keldeo check, taking at most 58% damage from spec'd hydro pump while you outspeed and retaliate with a 92% psyshock, an OHKO after SR damage. That's pretty huge, so I'd drop ice beam - it isn't really doing much for the team.

You have no Earthquake, and a HP ice Raikou can kill Draglage, Starmie and Staraptor with relative ease, outspeeding the first two and outdamaging the latter, forcing you to switch out, probably to ferrothorn. This makes ferro your primary electric tank, switching in, setting up leech seed, healing with lefotvers etc so make sure you keep it alive as it's going to see some use, with the increase of popularity from specs Raikou/Rotom-W. I really don't know what to suggest here, as none of your team can learn decent ground attacks. Your best bet is to use Ferro, and maybe run a protect / leech seed / Stealth rock / gyro ball set, healing off Leech/Leftovers and protecting where necessary. See if you can slot in a ground move; your switch-ins to fast electric types are really limited, and even more so from Mega Manectric, who can learn flamethrower.

So, really, I'm just pointing out mons and types that can really harm you. Your team looks great, though, and you can probably muddle through with your range of sweepers, though you could make life easier for yourself by covering more types :p you said yourself Dragalge was a strange pick; while it's completely viable, a Garchomp variant would perhaps fit this team better, giving you stronger dragon attacks and access to Earthquake. Failing that, a Mold Breaker Lum Berry Haxorus can do the job for you, smashing things like Multiscale Dragonite and Levitate Rotom-W and scoring some really neat OHKOs.

One last thing; beware bullet Punch Scizors - the amount of times I've OHKO'd Mega Gardevoirs with that thing. If you see it, run!

Again, great looking team, have fun with it, and I've got to like it for the title! n_n

Haha, thanks for the review! I definitely see a lot of reasoning here so I'm gonna try out pretty much all the suggestions. Heatran isn't really a concern because between Starmie and Staraptor I can generally just melt it. You're right about Ice Beam though, other than Grass types... but let's be real, with 2 2x and 2 4x resistances to Grass I get the feeling I'll be okay. I'm gonna try out Psyshock because now that I look at it you're kind of right, there's nothing that I'm missing except a few 4x instead of 2x, which are still OHKO's anyway. I'm actually considering Power Gem as a way to deal with the Charizard formes as well as give me a Rock type attack, though other than said Charizard I'm not seeing a lot else is covers. I feel safe against Keldeo as Gardevoir always OHKO's with Psyshock while being scarfed outspeeds non-Scarf variants. Staraptor does the same basically with BB.

Protect on Ferro is a pretty good idea, unfortunately this team's only ground move is Ferro with Bulldoze, so I'm going to have to just play smarter against electric types. I'll definitely be trying it out, but it does leave me with no Grass type attack, which has made me consider putting Energy Ball on Gardevoir as a way to destroy any Water/Ground shenanigans as well as provide a neutral hit on things like Excadrill, which is handy.

Bullet Punch Scizor is not really a concern either, as my mega is actually Houndoom, which barring Superpower or repeated U-turns from me being dumb absolutely annihilates it. It also OHKO's Mega-Scizor, so hardly a problem. It's definitely scary for Starmie and Gardevoir, but aside from that my other mons have it pinned down.

With Dragalge, I'm gonna try Haxorus for the Mold Breaker, as my way of dealing with Dnite was nuking their Defogger/Spinner and keeping my rocks up so that it came in crippled. It's just sad to see the theme of having a mon from each gen disappear. :(

Thank you so much for the suggestions though, I'll try it all out and let you know! 10/10 rate!

 

[MaChew94]

No problem at all! I was picking the team apart for checks and counters but you got them all wrapped up haha, so good job there. I hate suggesting new mons, but I feel you need some ground pressure really, especially as Mega Manectric can run circles around your ferro.

Energy Ball on Gardy would solve a few problems actually. I'd be tempted to try it and swap out trick for it maybe, but I'm not sure. If you remove your Dragalge, you're gonna lose your poison control, and your only form of fairy control then is steel wing on Staraptor. That might be enough to combat fairies, but you'll have to keep it alive purely to counter fairies then, which limits it's versatility.

You're stuck then between swapping it out and getting bonus damage, a set-up sweeper and ground control (Haxors) or keeping Drag in and countering fairies. Unless you can find someone who can slot in a poison or steel move somewhere?

It's just sad to see the theme of having a mon from each gen disappear.

Well, let's examine this quest of yours:

Starmie - R/B/Y
Houndoom - G/S/C
Gardevoir - R/S/E
Staraptor - P/D/Pt
Ferrothorn - Well, if we use some leeway, and go off popularity: X/Y (I'm trying to help you out here!)
Haxorus - B/W

Eh, I tried :D. Regardless, it'll be interesting to see where your team ends up, it was really strange to read through it and see most of the checks ticked off while having speed and power to deal with it - it's a really well designed team, and I couldn't do much to it.

 

[Dreamish_]

I'm in my phone ;p

I too was drawn by the title. (Mind if I steal it?) Anyway get ready for some in depth information! Changes at the end.

Firstly with Staraptor. I recommend Choice Band over Choice Scarf as it misses out on a ton of power. Or if you want speed and power replace it with CB Talonflame. Next for your set I recommend Return over Steel Wing. BB or Return would hit Fairies just as hard as Steel Wing would. Since you don't like Double Edge, Return works.

Next I recommend Belly Jet Azumarill over Gardevoir. You only have one Physical Attacker in your team. It also synergizes better with its Water Typing wrecking whatever threatens Mega Houndoom. With Belly Jet you get another WinCon after its checks are gone besides MHound.

Next I recommend Latias over Starmie. Starmie's typing would conflict with Azumarill so Defog Latias would do better as it removes hazards as well and forms a small DragonSpam core with Dragalgae.

What I now notice is an Ice weakness so I recommend Klefki as it has bulk and Prankster guaranteeing you get up a layer of Spikes. But if you want power I recommend Kyurem-B as its up there in terms of power. It's you decision.

Finally changed Ferrothorn to Relaxed or Sassy. Better walling capabilities.

Changes

Starmie to :
Latias @ Life Orb
72 HP / 184 SpA / 252 Spe
Ability Levitate
Timid Nature
- Healing Wish
- Psyshock
- Defog
- Draco Meteor

Staraptor-->Steel Wing to Return and Choice Band over Choice Scarf

OR

Talonflame @ Choice Band
252 Atk / 252 Spe / 4 Def
Ability: Gale Wings
Adamant Nature
- Brave Bird
- Flare Blitz
- U-Turn
- Tailwind/Roost/(Pretty much anything)

Gardevoir to:
Azumarill @ Sitrus Berry
128 HP / 252 Atk / 124 Spe
Ability : Huge Power
Adamant Nature
-Belly Drum
- Play Rough
- Aqua Jet
- Knock Off / Waterfall

Dragalgae to :
Klefki @ Light Clay or Leftovers
252 HP / 252 Def or SpD / 4 Def or SpD
Ability : Prankster
Calm Nature / Bold Nature
-Spikes
-Reflect
-Light Screen
-Foul Play / Thunder Wave

OR

Kyurem-B @ Life Orb (or Choice Scarf for Speed)
252 SpA / 224 Spe / 24 Atk / 4 Def
Ability : Teravolt
Mild Nature / Naive Nature (Scarf)
-Outrage
-Earth Power
-Fusion Bolt
-Ice Beam

Hope I helped and good luck! ^_^

Oh my Goodness I'm sorry for not replying sooner. Thanks very much for the review, and you're more than welcome to borrow the name. :)

I'm not sure I can agree with a few of these suggestions however, as the entire premise of this team is to use many special attacks to overwhelm the opponent. Switching out so many members would make it somewhat of a balance team which completely warps the original idea. In fact, the only Pokemon to remain would be Houndoom and Ferrothorn, which is a 1/3rd of the original team. That's not to say the team you've suggested isn't indeed a good idea from a team building perspective, but I would at that point just remake the team completely and keep my original one as well, they're that different. I'm sorry if that sounds like I'm a special snowflake or what have you, but it's more the fact that I'm trying to make this team work, not change its identity entirely.

With the Band vs Scarf argument on Staraptor, I'm really at a loss. I've tried both and wish I had the other, I'm hoping that with more reviews tweaking the team and optimising that the choice will become clearer. That being said, you may very well be right, I do after all have very fast mons already. It's just having the definitive answer to Mega-Lopunny and whatnot with Brave Bird is just so appealing.

No problem at all! I was picking the team apart for checks and counters but you got them all wrapped up haha, so good job there. I hate suggesting new mons, but I feel you need some ground pressure really, especially as Mega Manectric can run circles around your ferro.

Energy Ball on Gardy would solve a few problems actually. I'd be tempted to try it and swap out trick for it maybe, but I'm not sure. If you remove your Dragalge, you're gonna lose your poison control, and your only form of fairy control then is steel wing on Staraptor. That might be enough to combat fairies, but you'll have to keep it alive purely to counter fairies then, which limits it's versatility.

You're stuck then between swapping it out and getting bonus damage, a set-up sweeper and ground control (Haxors) or keeping Drag in and countering fairies. Unless you can find someone who can slot in a poison or steel move somewhere?



Well, let's examine this quest of yours:

Starmie - R/B/Y
Houndoom - G/S/C
Gardevoir - R/S/E
Staraptor - P/D/Pt
Ferrothorn - Well, if we use some leeway, and go off popularity: X/Y (I'm trying to help you out here!)
Haxorus - B/W

Eh, I tried :D. Regardless, it'll be interesting to see where your team ends up, it was really strange to read through it and see most of the checks ticked off while having speed and power to deal with it - it's a really well designed team, and I couldn't do much to it.

When I first started constructing this team I honestly thought Ferro was Gen 6. =_="

I'm using Double-Edge on Staraptor again with Scarf as it outspeeds and OHKO's Raikou after SR. It gives an okay answer to Raikou, but Manectric still poses an issue.

Also, reason to keep Dragalge:

252+ SpA Adaptability Dragalge Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Manectric: 306-362 (108.8 - 128.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Mega Manectric Hidden Power Ice vs. 228 HP / 0 SpD Dragalge: 112-134 (34.1 - 40.8%) -- 54.1% chance to 3HKO after Black Sludge recovery
252+ SpA Mega Manectric Hidden Power Ice vs. 228 HP / 0 SpD Dragalge: 124-148 (37.8 - 45.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Black Sludge recovery

It's actually quite an excellent check to Manectric, as this means that I can threaten it out with a Draco Meteor, while being able to pivot it into Manectric even if he goes for the HP Ice predicition.

 

[MaChew94]

I honestly thought Ferro was Gen 6

Well, he's gen 6, but it works out because you get to keep Dragalge after your real cool calcs! Though, be careful with switching in and crits; even though HP ice is only a 3HKO, with a crit and switch in you've lost 70-80% if he stays in. If you miss a meteor you're toast. If this is your manectric counter, and tbh it looks great (never looked into it, it looks p crazy man, I'll have to try it for sure) perhaps swap focus blast with protect or rest. I know rest isn't ideal, but if you use Drag as a switch in, take 2 HP ice and OHKO Manectric, and then rest, you can use it as a defensive pivot and actually use those turns spent asleep tanking certain hits; switching in counts as a round asleep (i THINK - Don't quote me on that). Regardless, it's a fine check, but that's all it's good for against a Mega-Man, because you're losing so much HP in the process. Just a thought, I really can't say much more about this team :) If you remove focus blast, keep close combat on Staraptor.

Also, it might please you to know that straight off smogon, Mega Manectric (http://www.smogon.com/dex/xy/pokemon/dragalge) is listed as a safe switch in/counter for Dragalge, so well done there!

The last thing to do is see this team in action; May I challenge you to a few battles? :) I have 2 OU teams almost perfected for my playstyle

 

[Lasers]

On Staraptor, can I reccomend Double Edge>> Steel Wing?

A neutral double edge hits harder than a se steel wing, and also lets u deal with rotom a bit better and other electric types such as raikou, thunderous and zapdos.

 

[Dreamish_]

On Staraptor, can I reccomend Double Edge>> Steel Wing?

A neutral double edge hits harder than a se steel wing, and also lets u deal with rotom a bit better and other electric types such as raikou, thunderous and zapdos.

Yeah I decided to run Double-Edge over Steel Wing in the end, it's simply too good to pass up. Thanks for the suggestion!

I'm currently just trying to find a reliable way to deal with Charizard-X and to a lesser extent Tflame. Any help with that would be appreciated!