Infinity?

Something I've always wondered...

There is an infinite amount of numbers between any two numbers. For example, there are an infinite amount of numbers between say, 1 and 2, but there are also an infinitite amount of numbers between 1 and 3. But for every number, n, between 1 and 2, there is the number n+1 between 1 and 3. So there are more numbers between 1 and 3 than there are between 1 and 2, and yet they are still both infinite. Why is this?
 
time to break out hubert's hotel. can't find the readings so i'll have to paraphrase.

Imagine a hotel with an infinite number of rooms. Now imagine that every room in this hotel is full. A customer walks in to the hotel and says to the man at the counter, 'May i have a room please?'. 'Certainly' says the man at the counter. With this he ordered the Man in the first room to move to the second room, the man in the second room to move to the third, etc. to infinitum. Now, there is a suddenly an empty room.

Equally as strange, if a guest checks out of Hubert's hotel, there will be exactly the same number of rooms as there were before. In fact, even if numbered all the rooms and emptied all the rooms with an odd number, there would still be the same amount of empty rooms as you had before.

Hubert's hotel - No vacancies, rooms for hire.

All Hubert wants to say is this: Infinites are but a concept, they do not actually exist in the real world. You can have a concept of infinity and use that as a tool for mathematics etc., but once you try and make it an existing object, you will run into a million troubles.
 
Infinite numbers between 1 and 2. But 1 and 2 can never reach the numbers between 2 and 3. So, the numbers are infinite in the confines of 1 and 2.


I know how it works, I just can't explain it well enough.
 
strange.
it cannot be infinite, cause any numbers between 1-2 cannot reach numbers between say 3-4 so I would say it's not infinite.
 
No, there are just different cases of infinity. This has a lot to do with Cardinal Numbers, which is measuring how many elements are in a set.

For example, we have that N, the natural numbers, is the smallest countable infinity, and that R, the real numbers, is the smallest uncountable infinity. There are also an infinite different many infinities, if that makes sense.

R has the same cardinality as all the numbers from 0 ~ 1, and 0 ~ 2, etc, since you can always find a bijective function that maps R to [0,1] and [0,2], so it doesn't matter anyway :| They're of the same cardinality.

I could easily be a bit off, but that should be the general idea, since i learned this almost two years ago.
 
No, there are just different cases of infinity. This has a lot to do with Cardinal Numbers, which is measuring how many elements are in a set.

For example, we have that N, the natural numbers, is the smallest countable infinity, and that R, the real numbers, is the smallest uncountable infinity. There are also an infinite different many infinities, if that makes sense.

R has the same cardinality as all the numbers from 0 ~ 1, and 0 ~ 2, etc, since you can always find a bijective function that maps R to [0,1] and [0,2], so it doesn't matter anyway :| They're of the same cardinality.

I could easily be a bit off, but that should be the general idea, since i learned this almost two years ago.

That's exactly right. The bijective map from R to (0,1) can be given by f(x)=(arctan(x)+Pi/2)/Pi, IIRC. The range of arctan(x) is (-Pi/2,Pi/2) with domain R, so we just need to adjust the function some to give us the desired range.

When I teach about orders of infinity in class it always makes folks struggle. Especially when you start going through what other sets have the same cardinality as the natural numbers, namely Z, Q, Z^n, etc.

You start to believe that's the only cardinality, then you learn R is "bigger". I've only seen a demonstration of the next infinite ordinal once, back in grad school. It was a pretty amazing construction.
 
Actually this is quite simple:
Using *8 as the infinite symbol
X*8, Y*8
X, and y are two numbers that don't exist, and therefore cant be computed. So, in understanding this, X=a position of a continuous amount between 1, and 2.. While y does the same for 2, and 3. While trying to find Z(the number of an infinite case between 1 and 3), you would need to use the sentence below.

The answer to your question is neither is more than the other, because of a continuous amount in which neither is will cease to advance.

The answer is:

(x*8) + (y*8) = (z*8)

Hoped this helped.
 
Hmm, I guess that answers my question. You guys kind of lost me when you started going into bijective functions and cardinality, but it makes sense.

So basically there are different "numbers" of infinities, but both are infinite nonetheless?
 
Hmm, I guess that answers my question. You guys kind of lost me when you started going into bijective functions and cardinality, but it makes sense.

So basically there are different "numbers" of infinities, but both are infinite nonetheless?

Yeah, because there are an infinite "Whole" numbers, and there are an infinite number or "decimals" between 0 and 1
 
To explain in English what people were saying in Math...

There are an infinite number of real numbers between 0 and 1. There are an infinite number of real numbers between 0 and 2 as well. This much you already know. Your question is how the infinity between 0 and 2 can be bigger than the infinity between 0 and 1.

The answer, as unintuitive as this sounds, is that they are actually the same size.

To understand this, imagine that you could write out every number between 0 and 1. Multiply each of these numbers by 2. The lowest number on your list is 0. The highest number is 2. In other words, you have created a list of numbers between 0 and 2. This is also a list of every number between 0 and 2.

But how do we know that it contains every number between 0 and 2? Shouldn't it only contain half of them?

Would you agree that you can divide any real number by 2? In other words, if you were to list out every number between 0 and 2, for example, you could take that number and divide it by 2. If you agree that all real numbers are divisible by 2, then the solution becomes fairly obvious. The highest number between 0 and 2 is 2. 2 divided by 2 is 1. The lowest number is 0. 0 Divided by 2 is 0. In other words, every number between 0 and 2, when divided by 2, becomes a number between 0 and 1. Multiplication and division are reverse functions of each other here. If I can take any number between 0 and 2 and turn it into ("map onto") a number between 0 and 1 by dividing by 2, then it stands to reason that I can create any number between 0 and 2 by taking a number between 0 and 1 and multiplying it by 2.

This means that for every number between 0 and 1, if I multiply it by 2, I am able to get any number between 0 and 2. There are no numbers between 0 and 2 left over, every number between 0 and 1 is used exactly once, and no number between 0 and 2 is used twice. From this we can see that there are just as many numbers between 0 and 1 as between 0 and 2.



Some people were questioning whether there actually are an infinite number of numbers between 0 and 1, for example. There is an interesting way to show this, as well.

Imagine you could write out every number between 0 and 1. If there is a finite amount of numbers between 0 and 1, you should be able to list every number. List them like this

0.266465365464562345...
0.523462546432543524...
0.758390820980923092...
0.523495239487295077...

etc.

Now I want to construct a new number. To do this, I look at the first digit of the first number (2). For my new number, it's first digit is anything but 2. This means my new number cannot be equal to the first number.

Then I look at the second digit of the second number (2). I make my second digit anything but 2. My new number is therefore not equal to the second number, either. Then I make the third digit anything but 8, and the fourth anything but 4, and so on down the line. I've constructed a new number that is different from any other number on the list. I can continue doing this no matter how many numbers are on the list (even an infinite amount!). In other words, no matter how many numbers you put on the list, I can always add another, ad infinitum. If there were a finite amount of numbers between 0 and 1, I shouldn't be able to make a new number, because as I said, we assume we've listed all of them.
 
Obi, I think I understand your division/multiplication explanation. You're saying that for every number, n, between 0 and 1, there is a cooresponding number, 2n, between 0 and 2? Makes sense.
 
Exactly. And for every number m between 0 and 2, there is a corresponding number .5m between 0 and 1. In other words, every number is counted exactly once, meaning you have what's called a "one-to-one relationship". If you can match everything up with exactly one other element, the two sets must be the same size.
 
Something I've always wondered...

There is an infinite amount of numbers between any two numbers. For example, there are an infinite amount of numbers between say, 1 and 2, but there are also an infinitite amount of numbers between 1 and 3. But for every number, n, between 1 and 2, there is the number n+1 between 1 and 3. So there are more numbers between 1 and 3 than there are between 1 and 2, and yet they are still both infinite. Why is this?
The short answer is: if you were to count, you'd find that there are the same amount of numbers in both sets.

Of course, we'd need to count them in a finite amount of time, though.

Which brings me to the definition of 'counting', and the long answer:

In mathematics, we say that a set contains the same amount of elements as another set if there exists a one-to-one onto function (bijective) that maps each element of the first set to an element of the second set. We can easily see, for example, that the sets {1,2,3,4} and {400,21,8,-24} contain the same number of elements by mapping, say, 1 -> 400, 2 -> 21, 3 -> 8 and 4 -> -24.

This becomes more difficult for infinite sets. Suppose we need to count how many non-negative even numbers are there. We can assign 0 -> 0, 1 -> 2, 2 -> 4, 3 -> 6, etc. This means that the set of non-negative even numbers contains the same amount of elements as the set {0,1,2,3,...}, which is usually called the set of natural numbers. In mathematics, if a set contains the same amount of elements as the set of natural numbers, then it is called countably infinite. This is considered the 'smallest' infinity. The number of elements of such a countably infinite set is sometimes called Aleph-0.

Now, in your example, the set of all numbers between 1 and 2 aren't even countably infinite, if you also consider numbers such as the square root of 2. There is an elegant proof by Cantor that explains why, which goes like this: Suppose the numbers between 1 and 2 are countably infinite. Then there must exist a bijective function that maps the natural numbers into the set of numbers between 1 and 2. A number between 1 and 2 can be written as an infinite decimal starting with 1 and a decimal point (1.99999999999... can be proved to be equal to 2, while 1.00000000000... is, of course, equal to 1). Hence we have, say:

0 -> 1.abcdefg...
1 -> 1.hijklmn...
2 -> 1.opqrstu...

etc. This should be a list that contains all numbers between 1 and 2.

Now create a number 1.ABCDEFG... such that

A = 0 if a != 0
A = 1 if a = 0
B = 0 if i != 0
B = 1 if i = 0
C = 0 if q != 0
C = 1 if q = 0

etc. This new number is distinct from each of the numbers in the bijective function, and is also a number between 1 and 2. This means that not all numbers were included in the bijective function after all! So the numbers between 1 and 2 are not countably infinite.

The set of numbers between 1 and 2 thus contain more numbers than the set of natural numbers. It can be shown that it contains as many numbers as the set of real numbers (the set of real numbers being the set of all infinite decimals). We could just map them as follows, for example:

a.b -> 1.ab

where 'a' is the (finite) set of digits before the decimal point and 'b' is the (infinite) set of digits after the decimal point.

The amount of numbers in the set of real numbers is sometimes called Aleph-1. This illustrates the point that there are some 'infinities' that are 'bigger' than 'others'.

Using a similar mapping, the set of all numbers between 1 and 3 can also be shown to contain as many numbers as the set of real numbers, and thus the sets [1..2] and [1..3] are shown to have the same number of elements, Aleph-1. For example, one such mapping would be:

ab.c -> 1.ac, if b is the digit 0,1,2,3 or 4
ab.c -> 2.ac, if b is the digit 5,6,7,8 or 9

where 'a' is the (finite) set of digits before the decimal point except the last digit (this set could be empty), b is the digit before the decimal point, and 'c' is the (infinite) set of digits after the decimal point.

That's the long answer. If you didn't understand anything, don't blame me. You asked the question, I provided you with the exact answer!
 
X-Act, that's quite an explanation. (I think) I understand the first half of your post, but when you started using abcdefg... my mind went abcdefg. I think I got the basic idea though.

And back to my original question. Why is it that Obi's explanation is valid to explain this situation (n -> 2n / n -> .5), but my n, n+1 explanation is invalid? Couldn't you map it as n -> n and n -> (n+1), thus not making this a bijective function? Or was that already explained and it just went over my head?
 
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