Battle Spot Kanto Classic - The Slow and the Dead

[Miss Kaneda]

Hello, Smogonites! I don't do a ton of posting or playing anymore, but as someone that fell in love with Pokemon back in Gen 1, I couldn't resist getting heavily involved in the Kanto Classic. I've been playing the format heavily since it went up on the ladder and peaked at #8, but now I'm having some trouble figuring out exactly what to do before trying to get my team in-game. Here's what I have so far, and I'd love to hear your thoughts.

MOONBEAST (Clefable)
Ability: Unaware
Level: 50
EVs: 228 HP / 252 Def / 28 Spe
Bold Nature
- Moonblast
- Calm Mind
- Heal Bell
- Moonlight

As much as I loved Minimize/Stored Power as a quick and easy way to plow through the low ladder, its proven so much harder to use near the top with all of the threats around. Clefable, amazing as she is, just doesn't get enough done simply as a set-up sweeper. I made the change to CM/Moonblast so I could squeeze Heal Bell onto her, allowing me to keep a cleric on the team and instead make better use of Chansey's slot. Now that so many people are speed creeping on Clefable, I added 16 more EVs to Spe in my final edit when getting my team in-game.

Buzzbeat (Zapdos)
Ability: Pressure
Level: 50
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
- Roost
- Defog
- Heat Wave
- Discharge

Zapdos is amazing, as people are slowly starting to figure out. PP Stalling with Pressure, as boring as it is, actually will grab a few wins. I'm debating how necessary Defog is, as Stealth Rock doesn't seem quite as central to this metagame as it is in other more offensive ones, but I hate the idea of having to deal with it and it hurts Dragonite's longevity significantly. Discharge spreads Paralysis to help Clefable and Slowbro set up when the time is right, Heat Wave lets Zapdos damage Nidokings and Jolteons on the switch, and depending on their investment, can often afford to stay in even on Ice Beams and HP:Ice respectively and keep dealing damage. Rocks aren't a tremendous problem for my team, though I do like to keep Dragonite's Multiscale intact. Is Defog worth keeping?

Uncle Snoozer (Snorlax)
Ability: Thick Fat
EVs: 252 Def / 244 SpD / 12 Spe
Impish Nature
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
- Fissure
- Crunch

Dropping Chansey gave me the ability to add another huge win condition to the team. There's no doubt that Snorlax is incredibly difficult to get past in this meta, and having faced so many of them and struggled to do anything against them, he simply had to make the team. Having the EVs in defenses do more for his overall bulk than adding to his already massive HP stat, and my goal is to really outlast any attackers, firing off Fissures until everything that Body Slam can't overcome ends up falling down. Dropped Body Slam for Crunch in final edits. Gengar was impossible to get around if played appropriately, and Crunch will still wear down most things eventually.

Teddy Broosevelt (Slowbro)
Ability: Regenerator
Level: 50
EVs: 244 HP / 252 Def / 12 Spe
Bold Nature
- Thunder Wave
- Slack Off
- Calm Mind
- Psychic

I've been running this Slowbro seemingly forever. Getting a CM in allows him to take Thunderbolts and Shadow Balls and recover off the damage with Slack Off. Getting to +1 on a forced switch lets Slowbro completely overpower Gengar and Alakazam by paralyzing them, recovering until they're fully paralyzed, and then start firing off the Psychics. Replaced Scald at the suggestion and I find that the extra damage, lack of immunities, as well as the 75% chance to OHKO Gengar is pretty nice.

AirCow (Dragonite)
Ability: Multiscale
Level: 50
EVs: 212 HP / 68 Atk / 228 Def
Adamant Nature
- Iron Head
- Thunder Wave
- Roost
- Stone Edge

Dragonite leads nine out of ten matches. With Multiscale, he's nearly impervious to all but a few attacks, only really fearing Cloyster's Icicle Spear. This allow him to do such bold things as stay in on Nidoking and Earthquake to see if he's faster. Iron Head smacks Aerodactyl and Clefable hard, and EQ one-shots most Jolteons that are foolish enough to stay in. Switched to Stone Edge to murder the many Articunos showing up on high ladder and hit Zapdos harder. I miss having the OHKO in Jolteons, but other teammates can handle them.

RhiRhi (Machamp)
Ability: No Guard
Level: 50
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Dynamic Punch
- Toxic
- Rest
- Sleep Talk

And here's the newest and oddest member of the team. His nickname sucks, by the way, so suggestions on that would be appreciated, too. Again, my preference for Pokemon able to recover and stall shows through with a second Rest/Talking member, and as odd as this build looks, so far it's been effective.

Machamp is on the team for two reasons: Punch Snorlax hard, and Toxic Slowbros and Clefables. Confusing other Pokemon is simply a bonus, giving everyone else a chance at free turns to either set up CMs or hit a lucky Fissure. The Special Bulk forces neutral hits into 3HKO situations, notably Jolteon's Thunderbolt and Nidoking's Sludge Wave, and that allows him to stay in and fish for Dynamic Punches that can wear them down.

Obviously I'm open to thoughts about changing him some, too. With all the Rest/Talking, a Guts set could be interesting, but with hitting Toxic at the right time being so key, I really like having that be 100% guaranteed.

Final edits made, team is in-game and ready to rock!

Old Version Replays:
https://t.co/PivbV4T0r9
https://t.co/vU4ndDqayH
https://t.co/4E070MhMUA

Most Recent Replays:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/kantoclassic-331246195
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/kantoclassic-331673984
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/kantoclassic-331680015
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/kantoclassic-333017502

 

[NOVED]

Has wish been particularly useful for you? I think Stoss would be a lot better there so Chansey isn't just a sitting duck. I know PP stalling is a thing but I dont really think it's very effective to only rely on that.

The bulky dnite set is really sweet but have you considered Dclaw over Iron Head? Im pretty sure twave and Dclaw will be enough to take on Aero and you have a really solid answer to Clef with your Weezing as well as a Clef of your own.

Like you said, Psyshock is something that's worth considering on Slowbro over Scald. It helps you take on Dragonite more reliably and gets rid of Gengar really fast. However the 30% chance to burn can be pretty sweet so its a bit of a toss up over which is better. But I think since your clef is stored power, being able to take out dnite pretty quickly with Psyshock may be of value to you in some games vs dnites. You can't always rely on scald burns against them.

Other than those minor things I think your team looks really solid. I believe bulky/stall teams like this are the best in the format atm.

 

[Omastar68]

I like this team. One thing I found running calcs with a Calm Zapdos is it wants 68 Def(take from SpD,) to survive +1 Dnite's Outrage. Another is that Chansey is Taunted to tears. I vote Toxic>SR for you, and put Seismic Toss over one of the the other three moves(not sure which TBH, but leaning towards Softbioled cause Chansey can heal with her own Wish.)

I think Psyshock is better than Scald for Slowbro. You get rid of Gengar faster-you don't want that thing hanging around even after a CM or two-and it has no immunities(Scald has Vaporeon.) I wonder if Psychic could work, hitting opposing bros on the weaker defense to make up for Psychic being ineffective against them.

That is a very interesting DNite. Water/ Steel coverage is pretty good, and Waterfall has a 20% flinch chance. I think it could go over EQ, since your team seems quite good vs Jolteon. Also, I'm not sure where you'd fit it on, but if you get rid of Weezing, remember DNite gets Haze. That'd be an interesting surprise for Clef!

Weezing fits really well here, and I like how you're running 12 Spe on it and Clef for 4 Spe Clef. Idk about Taunt since it's slow, but I do think it fits better than Arcanine, which is another SR weakness which puts a strain on Zapdos. If you opt to keep EQ on DNite, you could replace Weezing with Vaporeon, which has lots of nice stuff that goes well with your themes of healing and PP stalling.

 

[cant say]

Wish is nigh impossible to get in-game so that would be my suggestion of what to replace with Seismic Toss. Chansey definitely needs a way to kill stuff and right now it is way too passive.

 

[Miss Kaneda]

Has wish been particularly useful for you? I think Stoss would be a lot better there so Chansey isn't just a sitting duck. I know PP stalling is a thing but I dont really think it's very effective to only rely on that.

The bulky dnite set is really sweet but have you considered Dclaw over Iron Head? Im pretty sure twave and Dclaw will be enough to take on Aero and you have a really solid answer to Clef with your Weezing as well as a Clef of your own.

Like you said, Psyshock is something that's worth considering on Slowbro over Scald. It helps you take on Dragonite more reliably and gets rid of Gengar really fast. However the 30% chance to burn can be pretty sweet so its a bit of a toss up over which is better. But I think since your clef is stored power, being able to take out dnite pretty quickly with Psyshock may be of value to you in some games vs dnites. You can't always rely on scald burns against them.

Other than those minor things I think your team looks really solid. I believe bulky/stall teams like this are the best in the format atm.

I really, really like having Iron Head as a way to bop Clefables when I need to, and actually I'm liking this capability so much that I'm thinking of pulling Weezing from the team. I just started testing with No Guard Machamp as a more consistent and final answer to Snorlax and I like how that seems to be working out so far. I'm trying Psychic/Psyshock on Slowbro as well, and I've been happy with what I've seen. Thanks.

 

[Miss Kaneda]

Wish is nigh impossible to get in-game so that would be my suggestion of what to replace with Seismic Toss. Chansey definitely needs a way to kill stuff and right now it is way too passive.

When I first started with this team I was using Seismic Toss, but honestly, it's tremendously underwhelming in a level 50 format and didn't really do significant damage to anything of note. So many Pokemon carry recovery moves in this format that ST often just ended up being a dead move. I've switched to Toxic and dropped Stealth Rock, and while this does make Chansey absolute Taunt bait, it seems the more useful way to cripple notable threats, giving me an option to get past Slowbros and Clefables if pressed.

 

[Miss Kaneda]

Made significant changes and updates to the team after considering suggestions and doing some testing. Doing some weird stuff with Machamp, what do you think?

 

[Omastar68]

Really interesting. Never seen that spread on Snorlax(not like you see the opponent's set anyways, but I just would never imagine.) It looks nice enough, and Sleep Talk lets you better deal with Venomoth and other sleep abusers, but leaves you unable to damage Gengar, which is already a problem for your team.

Why'd you change the EVs on Slowbro(may note been paying attention and they were always like that, but even so?) And why'd you move the 244 EVs on Clef to HP and made Def max? Sure it's a minor change but there must be a reason.

Machamp is very interesting. I think you should drop Sleep Talk, maybe for Payback, so you can hit Gengar. You can just switch out after Rest and have Clef use Heal Bell later. I'm also always kind of skeptical about 252/4/252 spreads, except on the most dedicated of sweepers, so is all that HP and SpD necessary to avoid certain 2HKOs?

 

[Miss Kaneda]

I hadn't actually changed the EVs at the time you posted this, but I did just now, opting to speed creep on Slowbro and Snorlax since they're both base 30s and almost every team has one, if not both. As for Payback, I would love to squeeze it in, but Clefable is still one of the team's significant win conditions, and I hate to expose it to attacks to use Heal Bell more than perhaps once during the match. Aside from Sub/Disable Gengars, which I really haven't seen, I can still usually handle him with either a Thunder Wave or Psychic from Slowbro, though he does present a challenge to play around. If I start having trouble, I'll try it out.

Oh, and I haven't done any calcs for Machamp, but if he continues to perform well I'll sit down with the calculator and try to figure out if I can shave any EVs, but from the matches I've played there doesn't seem to be a whole lot of wiggle room.

 

[Omastar68]

That first match in Most Recent Replays is pretty great. I don't think I've ever had a battle go on quite that long, except maybe a few times in game. Even though you won, and by a sizeable margin, you did make one little misplay(which may not even count, TBH,) switching Bro out of that DNite's Outrage. It likely would've likely either been full para the next turn or gotten confused after using Outrage, which you could've lived after a Slack Off if it didn't crit. You then could've used it as set up fodder(probably.) And I can tell that it seems you can't really afford to run less SpD on Machamp if you want to take most string hits. Kinda funny that Machamp outspeed your DNite.

Second battle is lulz. That T-Wave from DNite to start must've shocked them so bad. Again a couple minor oops is, but clearly you're not suffering from them, as your rating shows. Weird Sleep Ralk pulled Dynamichpunch on Champ each time since it's only a 1/3 chance.

Third battle is amazing. Your comeback is impressive, as is 128 turns.

 

[Miss Kaneda]

That first match in Most Recent Replays is pretty great. I don't think I've ever had a battle go on quite that long, except maybe a few times in game. Even though you won, and by a sizeable margin, you did make one little misplay(which may not even count, TBH,) switching Bro out of that DNite's Outrage. It likely would've likely either been full para the next turn or gotten confused after using Outrage, which you could've lived after a Slack Off if it didn't crit. You then could've used it as set up fodder(probably.) And I can tell that it seems you can't really afford to run less SpD on Machamp if you want to take most string hits. Kinda funny that Machamp outspeed your DNite.

Second battle is lulz. That T-Wave from DNite to start must've shocked them so bad. Again a couple minor oops is, but clearly you're not suffering from them, as your rating shows. Weird Sleep Ralk pulled Dynamichpunch on Champ each time since it's only a 1/3 chance.

Third battle is amazing. Your comeback is impressive, as is 128 turns.

First, let me thank you so much for your continued interest in my team and the progress I'm making. I went back through my replays after your comments and had some more thoughts on plays I made and things I learned from those battles. I think the biggest mistake I made was Roosting in front of Aerodactyl instead of hitting it with a T-Wave. There's definitely some luck involved in some of these tighter wins regarding Fissure specifically, but I think that's another small thing that gives this team an edge over more traditional builds. I'm seeing a lot of Superpower on Snorlaxes now, though, so that's definitely something to be aware of for everybody.

 

[Omastar68]

First, let me thank you so much for your continued interest in my team and the progress I'm making. I went back through my replays after your comments and had some more thoughts on plays I made and things I learned from those battles. I think the biggest mistake I made was Roosting in front of Aerodactyl instead of hitting it with a T-Wave. There's definitely some luck involved in some of these tighter wins regarding Fissure specifically, but I think that's another small thing that gives this team an edge over more traditional builds. I'm seeing a lot of Superpower on Snorlaxes now, though, so that's definitely something to be aware of for everybody.

Sure, I like RMTs and yours is particularly interesting. Also, you're a girl(or at least your page says you are,) which is pretty cool since almost everyone here is a guy(even some of the people I thought might be girls for some random reason.) Only know of one other female(maybe 2 or 3) here, so it's just kinda special.

Anyways, pretty surprised about that bit on Superpower on Snorlax. Never encountered it, and Gengar seems like too much of a threat to Snorlax for it to run two moves that don't affect it.

It's easy to make a few little mistakes, and I wouldn't be surprised if I actually made more than you, it's just easier to see when you're watching a replay of someone else.

Also, I've noticed(because I use one,) that no Spe Zapdos reaches 120 Spe. Adamant Cloyster reaches 122 Spe with max Spe investment, so running a little Spe for that might be good, since I doubt many run Jolly cause of Shell Smash. Also I think you want 68 Def for +1 DNite's Outrage, but I'm not sure since you already deal with it pretty good.

 

[Miss Kaneda]

Sure, I like RMTs and yours is particularly interesting. Also, you're a girl(or at least your page says you are,) which is pretty cool since almost everyone here is a guy(even some of the people I thought might be girls for some random reason.) Only know of one other female(maybe 2 or 3) here, so it's just kinda special.

Anyways, pretty surprised about that bit on Superpower on Snorlax. Never encountered it, and Gengar seems like too much of a threat to Snorlax for it to run two moves that don't affect it.

It's easy to make a few little mistakes, and I wouldn't be surprised if I actually made more than you, it's just easier to see when you're watching a replay of someone else.

Also, I've noticed(because I use one,) that no Spe Zapdos reaches 120 Spe. Adamant Cloyster reaches 122 Spe with max Spe investment, so running a little Spe for that might be good, since I doubt many run Jolly cause of Shell Smash. Also I think you want 68 Def for +1 DNite's Outrage, but I'm not sure since you already deal with it pretty good.

I've often wondered if my gender or age was the more unique part of being here, as I'm also 32. Still, I love love love Pokemon, and ever since discovering competitive battling about five years ago I've found it very interesting and exciting.

Your suggestions for Zapdos seem to have some merit. I'm admittedly pretty scared every time a Dragonite starts with the Outrage, as it just hits so, so, so hard. Normally I've paralyzed the D-Nite as it set up, so it helps to have a chance at taking it out that way and it often gives Clefable a chance to set up herself on the switch, but Dragonite is always a little scary.

 

[Omastar68]

I've often wondered if my gender or age was the more unique part of being here, as I'm also 32. Still, I love love love Pokemon, and ever since discovering competitive battling about five years ago I've found it very interesting and exciting.

Your suggestions for Zapdos seem to have some merit. I'm admittedly pretty scared every time a Dragonite starts with the Outrage, as it just hits so, so, so hard. Normally I've paralyzed the D-Nite as it set up, so it helps to have a chance at taking it out that way and it often gives Clefable a chance to set up herself on the switch, but Dragonite is always a little scary.

That's really cool. My mom's 11 years older than you, but it's weird to imagine her being into Pokemon when I was eight. Not that it's a bad thin Ofc! Just that life can can get in the way when you grow up.

Anyways, looking at your team and one thing that seems possible is to switch T-Wave on DNite with Heal Bell on Clef. DNite wants to heal itself from status ASAP, instead of waiting until Clef can switch in, while Clef is a great user of T-Wave thx to Unaware. She can switch in just fine on boosted DNite, and even Cloyster. On my team I run Wish on Clef over Moonlight. Ofc, if you do that you really don't want CM since that encourages you to switch in while Wish is more for healing teammates than yourself(it's outclassed by moonlight if you're just gonna intend it for yourself, despite higher PP, cause you gotta wait a turn.)

I'm looking at your DNite's EVs in the calc, and I can't really find anything to change atm. The physical bulk seems to help take some stuff like Golem's Rock Blast(with or without rocks,) though I notice it will die to an opposing DNite's Outrage at +2 43.8% of the time, and always does to unboosted Outrage after SR damage. You only have two attacks, and they're kinda weak, so you could play around with an Impish nature.

 

[Miss Kaneda]

I'll need to run the calculations for Iron Head on Clefable, Aerodactyl, Golem and maybe a couple others. I had the same thought about Heal Bell, too, but it's incompatible with Multiscale, which makes that pretty much a dealbreaker. Dragonite really isn't that important to the team, mostly just working as a really effective anti-lead and deterring opposing Clefables.

 

[Vengeance417]

Dang, your team's almost like my own RMT 0.0 only mine has Rhydon over Dragonite. I swear I didn't copy you ;-;

Somebody was using your team against me while I was using mine and it was giving me a run for my money. RestTalk Toxic Machamp's a really unique and nice set. Perfectly encapsulates the whole "Stallbreaker" aspect Machamp is used for.

In regards to your question regarding keeping Defog on Zapdos (not sure if anyone already answered this) but my philosophy is that any team with a Dragonite on it needs hazard removal of some kind, even if Dnite has roost. Bulky Dnite being able to come in on hits so well while at full health is a godsend if you ask me.

Gengar's annoying to the Machamp set as well as most of your team, but your lead Dragonite is capable of T-waving it (which is something I assume you do anyway, heh :p ) but other than that, really solid team :)

 

[Miss Kaneda]

Dang, your team's almost like my own RMT 0.0 only mine has Rhydon over Dragonite. I swear I didn't copy you ;-;

Somebody was using your team against me while I was using mine and it was giving me a run for my money. RestTalk Toxic Machamp's a really unique and nice set. Perfectly encapsulates the whole "Stallbreaker" aspect Machamp is used for.

In regards to your question regarding keeping Defog on Zapdos (not sure if anyone already answered this) but my philosophy is that any team with a Dragonite on it needs hazard removal of some kind, even if Dnite has roost. Bulky Dnite being able to come in on hits so well while at full health is a godsend if you ask me.

Gengar's annoying to the Machamp set as well as most of your team, but your lead Dragonite is capable of T-waving it (which is something I assume you do anyway, heh :p ) but other than that, really solid team :)

You didn't happen to save that replay, did you? I've never built a team that merited emulating before, so I'd be curious to see how someone else managed piloting it.

I'm glad we've had some similar thoughts about team building. Definitely feels good to know I'm on the right track. We'll have to see if we run into each other playing on the carts in a couple weeks.