Ongoing Keriel vs Mamoswindle - Indefinite Stat Stages

[ChronoCritical]

Prompt: Indefinite Stat Stages
Format: b3p2 Singles
Level: 4
Round Hours: 72
Battle Hours: 120
Technique Control: 1
Arena Effect: Stat stages are created with indefinite duration.
Test Scenario: Attain +4 or more, or attain -4 or more, in a stat stage.​

Questions for discussion:

• Is this balanced? Is it any good?
• Does the game now revolve around these moves and abilities?
• Should Speed be included with these changes? Is that safe?
• Are there sufficient counter-moves? Counter-items? Counter-mons?
• Are Justified, Lightning Rod, and Storm Drain still okay?
• Should they cost more? Should they cost less?

---

My thoughts before the test:

On Speed:
It's obvious why Speed was separated from the other stats in this discussion. I've never felt dissatisfied about current speed control options, and indefinite Speed stages could definitely make things like the Paralysis condition and especially Tailwind very sad. I don't personally believe Speed "needs the help" here. (Though, Keriel, you've mentioned being unhappy with your slower mons, so maybe you've got something to say on this?)

Mixing indefinite stages with expiring stages:
Stat stages needn't always be indefinite. Some moves/abilities could grant them with a duration while others do not, much like how some give a longer duration than others. Sources of indefinite Speed could be limited. Potentially, moves that give 1 stage like Sharpen could give an indefinite Attack stage while Swords Dance gives two stages with duration, or attacks could be balanced to give stages with durations.
For this to work properly, the rules would probably need to accommodate for stages with duration expiring without removing stages gained from sources that grant indefinite stages. This could unlock some interesting balance levers, such as Swords Dance giving one indefinite stage and one stage with duration.
Speed Boost and Stamina have designs made more interesting by stages with durations. Currently, the short but constantly refreshing durations of the stages granted by these abilities means that the stages are essentially indefinite until the ability is disrupted.
Before the test, I'm of the opinion that some mixture of indefinite and expiring stages would best achieve balance goals.

What was brought:
Archaludon: NOOO PUBLIC ENEMY #1 DOESN'T NEED A BUFF!!!!! I'm joking, but also...

I mentioned Stamina before, and we are in agreement here. Electro Shot is salt on the wound.
On-Execute Stages: Alongside Archaludon's Electro Shot, we see Meteor Beam on Keriel's side, with Power Herb, too.
Clear Amulet: The obvious pick here, preventing (some of) the available disruption to the gameplan of raising stat changes as well as countering plans involving lowering stat stages. We'll have to see if this is a fair effect for the cost of an item slot. While relatively versatile, I don't anticipate it being too centralizing. It's no Covert Cloak.
Weakness Policy: Both sides brought Weakness Policy, which makes sense since it's a strong stage-giving consumable. Indefinite stages discourage switching, making consumables a bit worse - though with Keriel's backpack full of consumables, it seems like there might be some interesting dimensions to this.
Stage-giving Combos: (Mamoswindle) Togekiss has some funny combos. 100% effect chance Ancient Power? Lol. Lmao, even. Such are the things enabled by Serene Grace. Archaludon's Iron Defense+Body Press can get things started quickly as well. Pyroak only gets 2 slots, but I wouldn't be surprised if one of them is a Leaf Storm combo. (Keriel) Nihilego's Acid Spray+Thunder creates big damage and opportunities for more, while Delibird's Gunk Shot+Rapid Spin immediately overtakes any of the opposing team's Pokemon in speed.
Haze/Clear Smog: Both of Keriel's non-rentals have a stage clearing move, though Delibird will probably not want to click it. This makes Clear Amulet a suspect equip for Mamo.
Worry Seed: Nihilego has Worry Seed (in combo, as well!), making it able to shut down Contrary strategies from Pyroak.

What wasn't brought: (off the top of my head)
Clear Body: Clear Body users like Diancie are probably worth a closer look. Unfortunately, mine's only level 2. While I don't think Clear Amulet will be an issue, it might be more problematic in the form of an ability.
Unaware: Counter mons! Need I say more? Though perhaps being encouraged to complete the test scenario during the match discourages actually sending counter mons? Well, Skeledirge would be very happy about indefinite stages from Torch Song...

---

Team Keriel

Backpack

Air Balloon
Jaboca Berry
Leftovers
Power Herb
Rockium-Z
Rowap Berry
Weakness Policy

Bench

- OK!

Reserve

- OK!
- OK!

Profiles:

Scrafty (Lv 4)

Scrafty
Level 4

Relaxed nature ( Defense +2, Speed x0.869, Evasion -10 )
Typing: Dark/Fighting
Abilities: Shed Skin, Moxie Hidden Ability: Intimidate
Traits: Requires no Tech for their first Technique each battle.

HP: 85
Attack: 7
Defen.: 10 (+)
Sp.Atk: 4
Sp.Def: 8
Speed: 50 (-)
Size: 2
Weight: 3

Combinations (2 slots)
Select Combinations as you send out this Pokemon.

Movepool
Level 0
Brick Break
Bulk Up
Crunch
Dark Pulse
Dragon Claw
Dragon Pulse
Dragon Tail
Facade
Fake Tears
Feint Attack
Fire Punch
Focus Blast
Ice Punch
Iron Head
Leer
Poison Jab
Protect
Rest
Roar
Rock Slide
Round
Sleep Talk
Snore
Strength
Substitute
Swords Dance
Thunder Punch
Toxic
Uproar
Work Up
Zen Headbutt

Level 1
Amnesia
Chip Away
Coaching
Confide
Counter
Curse
Detect
Double Team
Dragon Dance
Dual Chop
Encore
Fake Out
Helping Hand
Incinerate
Iron Defense
Mega Punch
Power-Up Punch
Quick Guard
Rain Dance
Rock Climb
Rock Smash
Sand Attack
Scary Face
Sludge Bomb
Sunny Day
Swagger
Taunt

Level 2
Acid Spray
Assurance
Beat Up
Close Combat
Double-Edge
Focus Punch
Foul Play
Grass Knot
Head Smash
High Jump Kick
Iron Tail
Low Kick
Mega Kick
Payback
Revenge
Reversal
Secret Power
Stone Edge
Take Down
Thief
Upper Hand

Level 3
Attract
Body Slam
Dig
Drain Punch
Frustration
Headbutt
Knock Off
Lash Out
Low Sweep
Outrage
Return
Rock Tomb
Smack Down
Snarl
Super Fang
Throat Chop
Torment
Trailblaze

Level 4
Endeavor
Endure
Fling
Giga Impact
Hidden Power (Select a Hidden Power type)
Hyper Beam
Metronome
Retaliate
Snatch
Spite
Tera Blast

Will Beyond Stars (Nihilego Lv4)

Will Beyond Stars (Nihilego)
Level 4 — EXP: 0 / 10

Techniques:
Z-Moves

Bold nature ( Attack -1, Defense +2 )
Typing: Rock/Poison
Abilities: Beast Boost

HP: 100
Attack: 3 (-)
Defen.: 6 (+)
Sp.Atk: 9
Sp.Def: 9
Speed: 103
Size: 2
Weight: 4


Combinations (6 / 6)
Spite + Sludge Wave
Toxic + Hex
Acid Spray + Thunder
Reflect + Foul Play
Worry Seed + Dazzling Gleam
Knock Off + Clear Smog

Movepool
Level 0
Constrict
Cross Poison
Dazzling Gleam
Facade
Iron Head
Light Screen
Poison Jab
Power Gem
Protect
Psychic
Reflect
Rest
Rock Slide
Round
Sleep Talk
Snore
Substitute
Thunder Wave
Thunderbolt
Toxic
Zen Headbutt

Level 1
Acid
Brutal Swing
Confide
Double Team
Echoed Voice
Mirror Coat
Pain Split
Pound
Psywave
Role Play
Safeguard
Sandstorm
Sludge Bomb
Stealth Rock
Swagger
Tickle
Toxic Spikes
Venom Drench
Wrap

Level 2
Acid Spray
Bind
Clear Smog
Corrosive Gas
Foul Play
Grass Knot
Gunk Shot
Head Smash
Meteor Beam
Thunder
Venoshock

Level 3
Body Slam
Charge Beam
Frustration
Guard Split
Headbutt
Hex
Knock Off
Power Split
Psyshock
Return
Rock Tomb
Sludge Wave
Telekinesis
Worry Seed

Level 4
Ally Switch
Endure
Hidden Power (Ground)
Magic Coat
Spite
Trick Room
Wonder Room

Spirit of Goodwill (Delibird Lv4)

Spirit of Goodwill (Delibird)
Level 4 — EXP: 0 / 10

Relaxed nature ( Defense +2, Speed x0.869, Evasion -10 )
Typing: Ice/Flying
Abilities: Vital Spirit, Hustle Hidden Ability: Insomnia

HP: 80
Attack: 4
Defen.: 6 (+)
Sp.Atk: 5
Sp.Def: 4
Speed: 65 (-)
Size: 1
Weight: 2


Combinations (6 / 6)
Chilling Water + Body Slam
Gunk Shot + Rapid Spin
Ice Shard + Giga Impact
Sky Attack + Hail
Air Slash + Power-Up Punch
Quick Attack + Destiny Bond

Movepool
Level 0
Aerial Ace
Air Slash
Avalanche
Brave Bird
Brick Break
Defog
Drill Peck
Facade
Ice Beam
Ice Punch
Ice Shard
Protect
Quick Attack
Rest
Round
Signal Beam
Sleep Talk
Snore
Substitute
Toxic

Level 1
Agility
Air Cutter
Aurora Beam
Brutal Swing
Captivate
Confide
Counter
Curse
Detect
Double Team
Drill Run
Dual Wingbeat
Fake Out
Feather Dance
Hail
Haze
Helping Hand
Ice Spinner
Mega Punch
Mud-Slap
Power-Up Punch
Rain Dance
Rapid Spin
Recycle
Seed Bomb
Seismic Toss
Snowscape
Spikes
Steel Wing
Swagger
Swift
Tailwind
Water Pulse
Weather Ball

Level 2
Assurance
Blizzard
Double-Edge
Focus Punch
Foul Play
Gunk Shot
Ice Ball
Icicle Spear
Mega Kick
Pluck
Present
Reversal
Secret Power
Sky Attack
Take Down
Thief
Triple Axel

Level 3
Acrobatics
Attract
Aurora Veil
Baton Pass
Body Slam
Bounce
Chilling Water
Fly
Frost Breath
Frustration
Headbutt
Icy Wind
Return
Rollout
Trailblaze

Level 4
Bestow
Destiny Bond
Endeavor
Endure
Fling
Freeze-Dry
Future Sight
Giga Impact
Happy Hour
Hidden Power (Ground)
Hyper Beam
Memento
Mimic
Natural Gift
Pay Day
Splash
Tera Blast

Team Mamoswindle

Backpack

Clear Amulet
Life Orb
Scope Lens
Leftovers
Sticky Barb
Red Card
Weakness Policy

Bench

- OK!

Reserve

- OK!
- OK!

Profiles:

Pyroak (Lv4)

Pyroak
Level 4

Timid nature ( Attack -1, Speed x1.15, Accuracy +10 )
Typing: Fire/Grass
Abilities: Rock Head, Battle Armor Hidden Ability: Contrary

HP: 105
Attack: 4 (-)
Defen.: 8
Sp.Atk: 5
Sp.Def: 5
Speed: 69 (+)
Size: 4
Weight: 5

Combinations (2 slots)
Select Combinations as you send out this Pokemon.

Movepool
Level 0
Aromatherapy
Blaze Kick
Bullet Seed
Dragon Pulse
Dragon Tail
Earth Power
Earthquake
Energy Ball
Facade
Flamethrower
Flash Cannon
Grass Whistle
Iron Head
Light Screen
Petal Blizzard
Protect
Rest
Roar
Rock Polish
Rock Slide
Round
Sleep Talk
Snore
Strength
Substitute
Swords Dance
Toxic
Wild Charge
Will-O-Wisp
Zen Headbutt

Level 1
Absorb
Amnesia
Ancient Power
Aromatic Mist
Brutal Swing
Confide
Counter
Double Team
Dragon Breath
Dragon Dance
Ember
Fire Spin
Flame Wheel
Flash
Grassy Terrain
Growth
High Horsepower
Incinerate
Iron Defense
Leafage
Magical Leaf
Mud-Slap
Psybeam
Rock Climb
Rock Smash
Safeguard
Sand Tomb
Seed Bomb
Stealth Rock
Sunny Day
Swagger
Sweet Scent
Swift
Synthesis

Level 2
Burning Jealousy
Double-Edge
Fire Blast
Flare Blitz
Grass Knot
Grassy Glide
Heat Wave
Inferno
Iron Tail
Leech Seed
Low Kick
Revenge
Secret Power
Solar Beam
Solar Blade
Take Down
Terrain Pulse
Wood Hammer
Zap Cannon

Level 3
Attract
Bulldoze
Flame Burst
Flame Charge
Frustration
Giga Drain
Headbutt
Heat Crash
Heavy Slam
Lava Plume
Leaf Tornado
Low Sweep
Petal Dance
Return
Rock Tomb
Scorching Sands
Throat Chop
Trailblaze
Worry Seed

Level 4
Block
Burn Up
Endure
Giga Impact
Hidden Power (Fairy)
Hyper Beam
Leaf Storm
Natural Gift
Nature Power
Overheat
Stomping Tantrum
Water Sport

Brunel (Archaludon Lv4)

Brunel (Archaludon)
Level 4 — EXP: 0 / 10

Calm nature ( Attack -1, Special Defense +2 )
Typing: Steel/Dragon
Abilities: Stamina, Sturdy Hidden Ability: Stalwart

HP: 95
Attack: 7 (-)
Defen.: 9
Sp.Atk: 9
Sp.Def: 7 (+)
Speed: 85
Size: 3
Weight: 4


Combinations (6 / 6)
Iron Defence + Body Press
Metal Sound + Dragon Pulse
Thunder Wave + Dragon Tail
Light Screen + Flash Cannon
Dragon Cheer + Draco Meteor
Snarl + Thunder

Movepool
Level 0
Aura Sphere
Brick Break
Dark Pulse
Dragon Claw
Dragon Pulse
Dragon Tail
Earthquake
Facade
Flash Cannon
Hone Claws
Iron Head
Leer
Light Screen
Metal Sound
Night Slash
Protect
Reflect
Rest
Roar
Rock Slide
Round
Screech
Slash
Sleep Talk
Snore
Substitute
Swords Dance
Thunder Wave
Thunderbolt

Level 1
Iron Defense
Metal Claw
Mirror Coat
Rock Smash
Scary Face
Stealth Rock
Steel Roller

Level 2
Double-Edge
Dragon Cheer
Focus Energy
Foul Play
Metal Burst
Meteor Beam
Solar Beam
Steel Beam
Stone Edge
Take Down
Thunder

Level 3
Attract
Body Slam
Breaking Swipe
Gyro Ball
Hard Press
Heavy Slam
Laser Focus
Outrage
Rock Tomb
Smack Down
Snarl

Level 4
Body Press
Draco Meteor
Electro Shot
Endure
Giga Impact
Hidden Power (Ice)
Hyper Beam
Stomping Tantrum
Tera Blast

Charleston (Togekiss Lv4)

Charleston (Togekiss)
Level 4 — EXP: 0 / 10

Timid nature ( Attack -1, Speed x1.15, Accuracy +10 )
Typing: Fairy/Flying
Abilities: Hustle, Serene Grace Hidden Ability: Super Luck

HP: 90
Attack: 3 (-)
Defen.: 7
Sp.Atk: 9
Sp.Def: 8
Speed: 92 (+)
Size: 3
Weight: 3

Combinations (6 / 6)
Rock Smash + Ancient Power
Zap Cannon + Flamethrower
Extreme Speed + Air Slash
Heat Wave + Body Slam
Mega Kick + Mud-Slap
Psychic + Mystical Fire

Movepool
Level 0
Aerial Ace
Air Slash
Aura Sphere
Brick Break
Dazzling Gleam
Defog
Facade
Flamethrower
Heal Bell
Hyper Voice
Light Screen
Nasty Plot
Play Rough
Protect
Psychic
Reflect
Rest
Round
Shadow Ball
Signal Beam
Sleep Talk
Smart Strike
Snore
Substitute
Thunder Wave
Toxic
Tri Attack
Uproar
Work Up
Zen Headbutt

Level 1
Air Cutter
Amnesia
Ancient Power
Captivate
Charm
Confide
Counter
Curse
Defense Curl
Detect
Double Team
Dual Wingbeat
Echoed Voice
Encore
Extrasensory
Fairy Wind
Flash
Growl
Helping Hand
Incinerate
Life Dew
Magical Leaf
Mega Punch
Morning Sun
Mud-Slap
Ominous Wind
Peck
Pound
Rain Dance
Rock Smash
Roost
Safeguard
Seismic Toss
Shock Wave
Silver Wind
Soft-Boiled
Steel Wing
Sunny Day
Swagger
Sweet Kiss
Swift
Tailwind
Trick
Twister
Water Pulse
Yawn

Level 2
After You
Covet
Double-Edge
Dream Eater
Fire Blast
Focus Punch
Grass Knot
Heat Wave
Mega Kick
Pluck
Present
Psycho Shift
Secret Power
Sky Attack
Solar Beam
Zap Cannon

Level 3
Attract
Baton Pass
Body Slam
Drain Punch
Draining Kiss
Extreme Speed
Fly
Follow Me
Foresight
Frustration
Headbutt
Laser Focus
Lucky Chant
Mystical Fire
Psych Up
Psyshock
Return
Rollout
Telekinesis

Level 4
Ally Switch
Bestow
Endeavor
Endure
Fling
Future Sight
Giga Impact
Hidden Power (Ground)
Hyper Beam
Imprison
Last Resort
Magic Coat
Metronome
Mimic
Mirror Move
Natural Gift
Retaliate
Stored Power
Wish

Keriel to send and equip
Mamoswindle to send, equip, and order
Keriel to order
ChronoCritical to ref

Reminders:
Use your freedom of commentary to discuss the testing prompt.
If sending a rental, make sure to specify its combos (and Hidden Power type, in the case of Scrafty).​

 

[Keriel]

Sending Scrafty @ Weakness Policy.


This is heavily motivated by the format, rather than just the stat changes; while we all know from Safari how unplayable Togekiss vs Scrafty is, I can't actually dodge that matchup if Mamo wants it... But taking it forces Mamo to not send Archaludon, which would make me very happy. And sending anything else makes me commit to my team first, which I really don't want to do.

Scrafty will learn Hidden Power (Ghost), Iron Tail + Low Sweep, and Body Slam + Power-Up Punch.

 

[Mamoswindle]

Sending Pyroak holding a Red Card


So with so much policy floating about I think the stocks on mons that just wanna click strong STAB moves is up and pyroak is a pretty stellar example of this. Whilst this means I'm opting out of a super lopsided matchup right now it gives me space to be more flexible later whilst also playing around giving Scrafty free value from it's held item. Red Card is possibly more valuable in a world with indefinite stat stages for more than matchup hunting but in P2 it's probably still best for the latter.

Pyroak combos:
Zap Cannon + Ember
Leech Seed + Grass Whistle

Overheat ~ Overheat ~ Overheat
At start of step IF Scrafty is to use Body Slam in combination THEN use Protect
At start of turn IF Scrafty has protection THEN use Stealth Rock first instance, Sunny Day second instance
At start of turn IF Scrafty is to use Head Smash THEN use Counter
At start of turn IF Scrafty does not have protection AND Scrafty does not have a decoy THEN use Leaf Storm

 

[Keriel]

This feels very threatening to order into - but I'm not sure it's about the durationless stages... Feels more like "Contrary is scary and Scrafty is bad".
But I do have a way out of this. Not happy about its effects on my EN, but better to ENKO than to die with 15 EN left, and that's what it looks like I'm on track for otherwise. Unfortunately, it appears that forced replacements are made in reverse post order on this patch instead of the order the Pokemon left play or the order of inflicting Switching/Phazing... so while I initially thought this would defuse the red card, I'm still going to have to send first. But I'll have second order, and I think I can work something out from that. Probably...


Dragon Tail ~ Fake Out ~ Endeavor

[when Dragon Tail misses, once] If able, push back.

 

[ChronoCritical]

As the players indicated, this round was informed by the "b3p2 with one preselected" format. Both players want the opponent to lock in their final picks ASAP.

---

@ Weakness Policy
Scrafty
Typing: Dark/Fighting
Abilities: Shed Skin, Moxie Hidden Ability: Intimidate
Traits: Requires no Tech for their first Technique each battle.
HP: 85/85
EN: 30/30
Attack: 7
Defen.: 10 (+)
Sp.Atk: 4
Sp.Def: 8
Speed: 50 (-)
S/W: 2/3
Evasion -10

Reserve

- OK!
- OK!

Backpack

Air Balloon
Jaboca Berry
Leftovers
Power Herb
Rockium-Z
Rowap Berry

Pyroak
Typing: Fire/Grass
Abilities: Rock Head, Battle Armor Hidden Ability: Contrary
HP: 105/105
EN: 30/30
Attack: 4 (-)
Defen.: 8
Sp.Atk: 5
Sp.Def: 5
Speed: 69 (+)
S/W: 4/5
+10 Accuracy
+1 Attack Stage

Reserve

- OK!
- OK!

Backpack

Clear Amulet
Life Orb
Scope Lens
Leftovers
Sticky Barb
Weakness Policy

Calcs

Step 1
Pyroak used Leaf Storm! (-3 EN)
Crit? (1d24,24) - No (1)
Damage: 13+3+5-8=13
+2 Special Attack

Scrafty used Dragon Tail! (-6 EN)
Hit? (1d10,2+) - Yes (10)
Damage: 6+7-8=5
Consumed Red Card
Pyroak is Phazing!
Scrafty is Switching!

Step 2
Scrafty used Fake Out! (-4 EN)
Damage: 4+7-8=3

Pyroak Flinched!

Step 3
Pyroak used Leaf Storm! (-3 EN)
Crit? (1d24,24) - No (14)
Damage: 13+3+5-8+8=21
+2 Special Attack

Scrafty used Endeavor! (-3 EN)
20 damage

Keriel to replace

Bench

@ Weakness Policy - 51/85 HP, 17/30 EN

Reserve

- OK!
- OK!

Backpack

Air Balloon
Jaboca Berry
Leftovers
Power Herb
Rockium-Z
Rowap Berry

Mamoswindle to replace

Bench

- 77/105 HP, 24/30 EN

Reserve

- OK!
- OK!

Backpack

Clear Amulet
Life Orb
Scope Lens
Leftovers
Sticky Barb
Weakness Policy

---

Keriel to replace
Mamoswindle to replace and order
Keriel to order

Thank you for conveniently telling me how this interaction is supposed to work.​

 

[LouisCyphre]

(?)

 

[Keriel]

(I have just been kinda distracted by life, but this is a good time to get back to this.)
My mons here have a totally untenable Arch matchup attacking-wise, regardless of what I send - but I think I see something that gives me a chance, so:
Pivoting to Nihilego @ Rockium-Z


More details to come when I actually order.

 

[Mamoswindle]

I was going to try and send this thing with a weakness policy before realising it can't proc in this MU, also my combos on this thing are copy pasted and results in me not liking them too much for the most part so I feel like my options for abusing stat changes manually are pretty limited. That said it feels like a good time to slap a clear amulet on a self stacking mon and see how it feels in a situation where stat stage changes are inherantly stronger.
Sending out Brunel the Archaludon holding a Clear Amulet!

Earthquake ~ Earthquake ~ Earthquake
At start of turn IF Nihilego has protection THEN use Swords Dance
At start of turn IF Nihilego's Evasion is +2 AND Nihilego lacks a decoy THEN use Aura Sphere
At start of turn IF Nihilego's team has Reflect AND Nihilego lacks a decoy THEN use Brick Break
At start of turn IF you Def rank is +2 or higher AND Nihilego lacks a decoy THEN use Iron Defence + Body Press