LC Theorymonning: What if?

apt-get

apt-get

it's not over 'til it's over
is a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
Blarapproved

Template shamelessly stolen from the RU one, credit to Feranfell

Hi!

Named after our very own venerable moderator Theorymon, this thread is primarily a thinking exercise, designed to help you understand how to think about and deal with new metagames and threats. None of the situations that will be discussed in this thread are guaranteed to happen, if they ever will at all. We're just going to talk about this kind of stuff just for the fun of it and to improve our discussion and thinking abilities, cool?

Here's how it's gonna work. I'm going to come up with a reasonable change to the LC metagame, and you guys discuss the aftereffects of this change, how it will affect the meta, some interesting sets you might use to combat this new change, any plausible counters, anything that you can think of to talk about this new potential change. This change could be anything from new DW abilities being released to changes to the moves or abilities that current Pokemon have. I'll also provide several questions to work off of (though you can make your own theories as well!), so hopefully it should be easy to just jump in and start discussing. I'm gonna give you guys an example or two of what's good and what's bad, just for clarification..

---
Topic: Scyther drops from LC Ubers​
example1 said:
Scyther would be way too broken in LC. Its excellent bulk, crazy speed and insane attack is way too much for the meta to handle. Nearly everything in the meta is OHKOed by its technician-boosted attacks, and the few rock- and steel-types that aren't are naturally handled by Mienfoo. A swords Dance set would decimate everything, and it even has priority boosted quick attack to defeat faster scarfers. It would be banned immediatly as every game would consist of a scyther sweep. It can even run a Choice Scarf set to use the most powerful u-turn in the tier. There's no arguing it, and even scarf Snover can't outspeed it (and Ice Shard does laughable damage). It would be disastrous to sand too, 2HKOing Hippopotas and easily OHKOing lileep to let Scarf Snover clean the rest. It can 2HKO every single wall with the combination of Bug Bite + Aerial Ace + Brick Break, furthermore proving Scyther should remain banned forever from Little Cup.
Click to expand...



This poster may be making some valid points, but it's an incredibly negative post and doesn't show any innovative thought or any different view points on this possibility, other than repeating the same sentiment over and over again. While Scyther may definitely be broken in LC, that's not the intended purpose of the thread. Please keep this in mind!

example2 said:
There aren't many counters to Scyther in Little Cup. A SubRoost set has a lot of longevity and power, allowing it to stay throughout the game, though it has a very crippling stealth rock weakness. However, it shares some synergy with Drilbur, making a strong combo (Drilbur takes care of the Rock- and Steel-types that trouble Scyther). A wallbreaker Life Orb set is very strong too, with Aerial Ace/Bug Bite/Brick Break/U-turn, doing a lot of damage and keeping up momentum with U-turn. A scarf set is also possible, revenging a lot of pokémon such as Mienfoo, Snover or Larvesta (though watch out for Flame Body). The only pokémon that can avoid the 2HKO from Scyther's STABs are easily trapped by Magnemite or KOed by Drilbur, allowing it to wreak havoc late-game. However, Hippopotas walls it cold, probably making the usage of sand teams go up (it's not like they weren't high enough). We'd see an increase in Rock-types and Stone Edge on most pokémon, as well as Stealth Rock, which is kinda rare on non-sand teams. All in all, Scyther would be one of the top pokémon in the meta.
Click to expand...



Can you tell the difference between these two contrasting posts? Example 2 is providing innovative theories on the impact of Scyther, which is more important than stating the brokenness of the Pokemon. He/she mentioned threats that wasn't previously mentioned, that being Rock-types and Hippopotas and also discusses the general impact of the Pokemon on the current metagame. Remember, this thread isn't about discussing what would be broken and what wouldn't; it's about expanding your thought about the possibilities of the future metagame.

Here are some ground rules that I want everyone to abide by when suggesting stuff to talk about:

Rules said:
1. try to avoid suggesting obviously broken changes, any posts breaking this rule will be deleted/edited immediately. Something like Pure Power Murkrow isn't acceptable.

2.Leave base stats, typing, and everything else alone. This is an exercise about moves and abilities, not anything else.

3.Give a brief explanation of why this move / ability would logically be usable on said Pokemon. This does not mean "i think it would be cool lololol". This does mean knowing the context of the move / ability that you want to add (ie. Dragon Dance is usually found on pokémon having dragon-like features or in the dragon egg group, etc.) and not just slapping moves on just because of their competitive nature. The goal here is semi-realism and discussing what would happen if Pokemon x got move y, not "let's see if we can make Pokemon x broken!!". I.E, no "shell smash would be so cool on mienfoo omg itd be so much used"

4.Post at least a little bit about what you think would change in the new metagame because of Pokemon x receiving move/ability y. I don't want you guys making posts that just say "LOL WHAT IF RUFFLET GOT BRAVE BIRD LEGALLY THAT WOULD BE COOL" and leaving it at that.

5.Don't bring up more than one or two new ideas per post. Even if you can think of a million bajillion awesome new ideas for moves and Pokemon, realize that everyone else needs to have a chance to give their input, too. Of course, you will have the opportunity of posting these at another point in the thread, as long as you yourself are willing :).

6. Don't forget that everyone else wants to have their ideas talked about, too. If you see someone's post that has been ignored, give 'em a response. Remember, it doesn't have to be a 10 page essay!

7. Try to think outside of the box, not simply boosting moves or new coverage moves. If you're struggling to think of something that might be worth talking about, respond to someone else's thoughts and come back later. If you are unsure whether or not what you have to say is worth saying, post it anyway; having a few questions answered and talked about is better than having a dead thread.
Click to expand...


I'll start off the discussion with some theorymonning of my own! Don't forget to think of things like "What effect will this have on the metagame?", "Will it significantly alter usage stats or outclass something to the point where it becomes a rare threat?", "What would rise up to counter or check this new threat?", "What playstyles and teammates would this new possibility fit in with?", "Will its other sets become superior with this new addition?", among other things you can think of yourself! So here we go:

What if Archen got Big Pecks? Archen's main flaw is its Defeatist ability, halving its attacking stats when it's below 50% health. However, if it got another ability, even an unsignificant one, it would be much, much better than now. Finally being able to run an attacking set without being useless mid- or late-game, it would be even more of a threat. Its defensive set would be even better, being able to check Murkrow throughout the battle with its Flying resistance and Roost. It would be even better in Volt-Turn chains, being an effective pivot for fire- and flying-types. Head Smash can finally be used to good effect on a scarf set, as its power isn't halved after one hit on average. So, what do you except of Big Pecks Archen? How would it fare in the Little Cup metagame, with its huge attack stat? Would it be more of a threat?

What if Chinchou got Recover? Chinchou's main flaw is that it's easily worn down over the course of the match by repeated attacks and entry hazards, with the addition of Recover to Chinchou's movepool, it'd finally have a way to reliably heal off all this residual damage aside from Restalk, making it much better at its job. Furthermore, the combination of Heal Bell and Recover would Chinchou into a powerful and resilient cleric, surviving throughout the entirety of the match to restore the status of itself and its teammates again and again. Aside from this, Recover would make Chinchou even better at walling the various threats in the LC tier it currently checks, such as Murkrow, Staryu, Magnemite, and even opposing Chinchous, among others. So what're your thoughts on Recover Chinchou? How much would it affect the playstyle of Chinchou, if at all? What about its usage as a defensive Pokemon?

Discuss away! :)
 
First of all, I’d like to thank Sark for taking the initiative to make this thread. It’s an awesome idea and I can’t wait for all of the discussions we’ll have in the future!

WARNING: Long post ahead. Skip to the conclusion if you don't like long posts.


For now, I am going to talk about Chinchou. Giving it Recover would definitely make it a more reliable and resilient wall, (not that it isn't already) and it would have quite the impact on the LC metagame. Sark is right; the lack of recovery is really Chinchou’s biggest (if not only) flaw. It can check nearly every pokemon in the tier that can’t hit it SE because of its already great bulk, and it has a wide array of powerful attacks and support moves that already make it one of the best walls of the metagame.


One of the first things we probably will see is a rise in Chinchou’s usage. It checks so many common Pokemon, such as Murkrow, Misdreavus, or Magnemite, and giving it the ability to shrug off any damage it sustains will make it even more effective at doing so. Chinchou’s typing, bulk, and unique ability give it a solid 5 resistances to common attack types such as Flying, Water, or Ice, as well as an immunity to Electric. Giving it Recover will only make it a wall that checks those pokemon with even more reliability, and it makes Chinchou last longer, so that it can continuously come in to defeat those common threats. It will be extremely hard for even HP Grass Murkrow to muscle past a Chinchou with Recover because Chinchou can just Recover off the damage and then KO with Volt Switch. Recover not only makes it a more durable wall but also makes it a lot more reliable and bulky.


I definitely think that the next most drastic thing that would happen if we give Chinchou Recover is a fall in the usage of Magnemite, Murkrow, Misdreavus, and some other Pokemon Chinchou currently and will then wall. Chinchou will become much more effective at checking those Pokemon amongst others, and a rise in the usage of Chinchou will mean a fall in the usage of those Pokemon Chinchou defeats. The numerous amount of people that use Misdreavus will suddenly find that a majority of teams they face will carry a Chinchou- a hard counter to said Missy. A lot of people that use Magnemite will also find that a majority of the teams they face will also carry a hard counter in Chinchou. Recover will make Chinchou a lot more effective, which will make people use it more, which will result in the fall of the usage of Pokemon that Chinchou counters.


Another drastic change that we might see is the rise in the usage of Grass- and Ground-types. Diglett is one that I think would definitely jump in usage as well. It is a solid answer to Chinchou, since uninvested Chinchou can’t hit it very hard even with SE STAB, and trapping and OHKO’ing the more-common Chinchou would definitely be important for many offensive teams who might find Chinchou as a larger threat because of Recover. Snover could also see some more usage, though probably not as much as Diglett, because it not only is a solid check to Chinchou but can also defeat the Ground-types that might also rise with Chinchou, checking the new threat as well as opposing checks to the new threat. If the usage of these Pokemon rise enough, Chinchou’s usage might still be kept in check, and then the decrease in usage that I described in the previous paragraph might be avoidable. However, there is a problem in this plan that our very familiar Mienfoo also has- which is Volt Switch. Volt Switch and Chinchou’s good speed makes it a very hard pokemon to trap and kill, and with Recover, it can easily pivot out in the face of Grass-types and then Recover off any hazard damage later. Other than Diglett, there won’t be any solid way to counter Chinchou because of its ability to pivot, so the chances that other things will rise to check Chinchou is relatively small.


I would like to explain in further detail one thing I said earlier- Snover. Chinchou / Snover is already a very widely known offensive / defensive core that is extremely effective because Snover is great at removing the counters of Chinchou- Grass and Ground types. If Chinchou gets Recover, I’m sure Hail will also shoot up in usage, because Snover / Chinchou gets a boost in effectiveness. With a Snover around, it is extremely hard to tackle Chinchou (again without using Diglett) because Chinchou can easily pivot into Snover and then grab more offensive momentum. Plus, Chinchou’s new improvement in longevity will only allow it to support Snover even further, strengthening the effectiveness of both.
A rise in Chinchou could also potentially spark a rise in weatherless offense (as if it’s not already used enough) Chinchou turns into an even more effective offensive check to opposing threats with Recover, and it’s role as a bulky cleric will be drastically improved, making offensive teams that carry it more powerful in general.



In conclusion, the small change of giving Chinchou Recover would definitely have some drastic effects on the metagame. Chinchou itself will most likely rise notably in usage, and this in turn will cause its checks to fall and its current counters to rise along with it. Hail’s second best tool will also receive a major bonus, as Chinchou / Snover becomes even more effective as a core. Weatherless offense could also see a rise in usage, because having Chinchou as a bulky cleric would definitely improve the overall longevity and power of its team.

I hope this post can spark further discussion.
 
What if Archen got Big Pecks?

Already, Archen is an amazing wallbreaker with its gigantic attack stat (just saying, it's even better than Scyther's). With Defeatist gone, Archen no longer needs to worry about switching in too many times or wasting a turn healing with Roost, and can continuously spam attacks. It would become the premier wallbreaker in the game. Also, without Defeatist, Archen can now fire off at least two powerful Head Smashes in a row, as recoil no longer brings it into Defeatist range. Therefore, I imagine a set with Head Smash and a Choice Scarf or Band coming in and decimating slower walls and removing troublesome threats, and with 17 speed and a scarf, most things in LC can be outsped. I'd imagine it being used as a kamikaze lure; luring in things that threaten the team, and Choice Scarf Archen can outspeed things that were once checks like Misdreavus and Staryu to KO them with Head Smash, paving the way for a teammate to sweep. Without Defeatist, Choice Scarf sets are more viable as well, since Archen is no longer punished as badly by switching.

Another thing I've been pondering for a long time, and this is the perfect time to raise it:

What if the Pomeg Glitch existed in Generation V?

In Generation III, the only way to obtain level up-exclusive moves from genderless Pokemon was the Pomeg Glitch. However, the glitch no longer worked in the following generations. However, if the glitch existed again in this generation, how would it affect the metagame?

Right now, I foresee Golett and Klink benefitting from this the most. Golett'a notable moves are now Shadow Punch and Focus Punch. Shadow Punch allows Golett to beat its best counters Misdreavus and Slowpoke, and is great coverage in general. As a bonus, it is boosted by Iron Fist. The second benefit is Focus Punch and while it is slightly more situational, an Iron Fist Focus Punch would hurt and is twice as powerful as Drain Punch. A SubPunch set is now usable and allows Golett to beat most of its current counters with a set of Sub/Punch/Shadow Punch/Earthquake or something similar.

As for everyone's favourite gear... Currently, it is a horrible Pokemon due to its terrible movepool and average stats. However, its level up moves include Shift Gear and Gear Grind. With access to these moves, Klink can now boost both its attack and speed to not only outspeed the entire metagame, but also to hit hard. Its usual Fighting-type checks are now outsped and KO'd, and it can even pull off a sweep when its counters are removed. While its coverage remains horrible, it's access to these moves, as well as Wild Charge and Return, improves its viability by a lot. Unfortunately, it is still walled by Magnemite, Chinchou and Ferroseed, so they need to be removed first.

Just saying, Klink's Life Orb HP Ground OHKOs the standard Eviolite Magnemite
 
If Archen Got Big Pecks

While Big Pecks in its own right is not an amazing ability, it is way better than defeatist and can turn Archen into a terrifying offensive threat. Like others have mentioned I predict Head Smash being used on many Archen sets since they don't have to worry about getting into Defeatist range.

With no Defeatist Archen will not be forced to run Oran Berry all the time and I can imagine Life Orb sets being quite popular. Perhaps there will be a set similar to Life Orb Murkrow since Archen has an amazing 112 base attack and great 74 special attack to work with a set like Stone Edge / Earthquake / Acrobatics / Hidden Power Fire with a Life Orb attatched would be very deadly to switch into. On the topic of Life Orb I think a Life Orb Agility Archen set could also become quite popular as a late game cleaner. Something like Earthquake / Stone Edge / Acrobatics / Agility has great coverage and after an Agility should be able to clean up late game.

With Archen's powerful Earthqauke Magnemite usage could drop, however Magnemite can trap Ferroseed and Bronzor who wall Archen without Hidden Power Fire so perhaps Magnemite will still see some usage. Hippopotas will probably rise in usage not just because its defensive enough to check Archen, but it would also be a good team mate to archen as the Sp Def boost in sand will help Archen in pulling of an Agility. Also regarding Hipopotas's Rock Slide would be more commonly seen on them to handle Archen.

Tirtouga would rise up in usage imo because with Shell Smash Sturdy and Aqua Jet it can set up and beat Archen. Sand will also rise for the reasons I mentioned in the above paragraph and Drilburs would be running Rock Slide more frequently. Snover could also rise in usage because while it can't switch in to Archen, it can revenge kill it with Blizzard and with Hipopotas probably rising in usage naturally SNover would anyway. However CHoice Scarf Archen could become quite popular making Snover unworthy of being called a 'check'

Finally I think more teams would be running Stealth Rock and Steel-types like Bronzor so they can wear out Archen over time, this could result in a slightly more defensive metagame with defensive Steel-types and hazards being more popular.

I will comment on Recover Chinchou later
 
I agree with most points above, except there are two oversights here that directly affect Archen (negatively and positively)

Superpowerdude said:
With no Defeatist Archen will not be forced to run Oran Berry all the time and I can imagine Life Orb sets being quite popular. Perhaps there will be a set similar to Life Orb Murkrow since Archen has an amazing 112 base attack and great 74 special attack to work with a set like Stone Edge / Earthquake / Acrobatics / Hidden Power Fire with a Life Orb attatched would be very deadly to switch into. On the topic of Life Orb I think a Life Orb Agility Archen set could also become quite popular as a late game cleaner. Something like Earthquake / Stone Edge / Acrobatics / Agility has great coverage and after an Agility should be able to clean up late game.
Click to expand...

Acrobatics and a Life Orb don't mix well together due to Acrobatics being super weak while holding an item (which I imagine was a large reason why it decided to run an Oran Berry, along with the obv. fact that it takes it out of defeatist range). I think it would run a Flying Gem to take advantage of Acrobatics similarly to Archeops in RU, because Flying is an excellent STAB option and a Flying Gem Acrobatics is extremely scary to switch into.

Also, Archen can learn Heat Wave just like Murkrow can, so it wouldn't need to run HP Fire. As a side note, Archen could also run Earth Power over Earthquake to get past physically bulky Pokemon such as Tirtouga (after Stealth Rock damage. Note that it can't take Aqua Jet from Tirtouga most likely but it would maim switch-ins more)

EDIT: If you are really crazy now you can use Head Smash on Archen without it practically committing insta-suicide. I doubt it would see very much use, but because Archen has an immunity to Earthquake to take advantage of compared to Cranidos, it would really hurt a lot and it would get a few more opportunities to pull off the move.
 
@ Swamp Rocket, I thought Archen got Heat Wave but I didn't see it on its list of moves so yeah your right it would be much better than Hp Fire. I agree that Acrobatics isn't too good but Archen doesn't have much other flying moves maybe pluck? 60 base damage and takes Oran Berrys which are quite common in lc.

I plan on writing about chinchou in this post too
 
@Superpowerdude

I would not say that Oran Berry is all that common anymore in BW LC due to Eviolite taking over. The only things I can think of that actually use an Oran Berry are Exeggute and the rare Oran Bronzor. Archen destroys the former with its Flying-type STAB and it has no hope of beating the latter unless it packs Heat Wave. In the non-theorymon meta Acrobatics is not a bad choice at all over Pluck on the Eviolite set due to dealing the same damage and doubling in power if Archen ever gets Knocked Off by a Mienfoo.

Anyways if Archen could rid itself of Defeatist it would be a pretty damn cool attacker with its extremely good mixed offenses and plethora of moves. The main things holding it back are its Stealth Rock weakness and middling Speed, but all it needs it to nuke something for it to accomplish its job and it would be able to switch out until it finds another opportunity to strike without having to worry about it nearing Defeatist range. Gaining Big Pecks also improves its Eviolite set as it doesn't have to try and keep itself above 50% for it to hit things hard and I guess Big Pecks preventing Defense drops could be useful, but there aren't too many Defense dropping moves out there.
 
Ebeast also remember Dwebble uses Oran Berry. Apart from that, yeah, Oran is almost gone.

Regarding Archen, I think one role of it has been majorly overlooked. The loss of Defeatist allows it to be a great defensive mon. Access to reliable recovery in Roost and powerful uninvested attack, Archen is no slacker. It sports nice bulk after Eviolite, allowing it to take on a variation of threats, namely Murkrow. Unique typing permits it to be an amazing counter to any variant of Murkrow, who can do nothing to it. It also can set up Rocks, which are a nice addition to any team. Due to massive offensive stats, it can maintain pressure even while fending of many threats defensively. The loss of Defeatist would allow Archen to propagate itself through the metagame and become a top rank threat, whether it be offensive or defensive. Overall, a huge change.
 
EBeast said:
@Superpowerdude

I would not say that Oran Berry is all that common anymore in BW LC due to Eviolite taking over. The only things I can think of that actually use an Oran Berry are Exeggute and the rare Oran Bronzor. Archen destroys the former with its Flying-type STAB and it has no hope of beating the latter unless it packs Heat Wave. In the non-theorymon meta Acrobatics is not a bad choice at all over Pluck on the Eviolite set due to dealing the same damage and doubling in power if Archen ever gets Knocked Off by a Mienfoo.

Anyways if Archen could rid itself of Defeatist it would be a pretty damn cool attacker with its extremely good mixed offenses and plethora of moves. The main things holding it back are its Stealth Rock weakness and middling Speed, but all it needs it to nuke something for it to accomplish its job and it would be able to switch out until it finds another opportunity to strike without having to worry about it nearing Defeatist range. Gaining Big Pecks also improves its Eviolite set as it doesn't have to try and keep itself above 50% for it to hit things hard and I guess Big Pecks preventing Defense drops could be useful, but there aren't too many Defense dropping moves out there.
Click to expand...

Pluck has 60 base power while Acrobatics only has 55. However it is probably still the preferred option come to think of it just in case you get your item knocked off on the switch in. I also agree with Dcae that defensive sets will be much better with no Defeatist.

If Chinchou got Recover

If Chinchou got Recover than I see Restalk not being used at all. If you need a cleric you can do what the OP said have Heal Bell + Recover. While Recover restores 1/2 the user Hp as opposed to Rests 100% it is still the better choice because it is more reliable than Restalk because often times your Chinchou can Sleep Talk Rest giving your opponent a free turn to do whatever.

I can see Recover finding room on offensive sets whether they be Eviolite or Life Orb. This will make Chinchou even more of a staple mon for Bulky Offense teams because it can heal off damage, gain momentum with Volt Switch, and possibly spread burn with Scald or just do damage with the good old Hpump.

I can definitely see Snover usage rising up to check Chinchou so I think a lot of them will be running Hidden Power Fire to lure in and KO it. A set like Hydro Pump or Scald, Volt Swith or Thunderbolt, Recover, and Hidden Power Fire could become quite popular. Naturally Chinchou usage will rise so I think Hidden Power Grass will definitely be a popular choice on Chinchou sets to beat opposing ones.
 
The difference between pluck and Acrobatics (pre-item loss) is almost non-existant in little cup. Acrobatics is still the preferred move because of all the knock off every where, and even without it, your output is roughly the same.

Also in reference to the pomeg berry glitch: we got a slight view of what that would be like back when PS! had a hard time enforcing LC bans. Golett with shadow punch is *really* effective in the meta. Maybe not to the extent of Misdreavus but it's definetly a viable ghost type, especially due to its physical tendancies. Its been stated already but Shadow Punch / EQ give it a 108 and a 150 Base Damage moves after STAB bonus, and interestingly, its nearly unresisted in the tier (gosh dang Murkrow). Mix that with decent stats across the board (bar speed and SpA) and you have a competitor in the teir.

One thing that i felt would have changed the emat would be if starters had acess to their DW abilities, specifically Sheer Force Totodile. Its not too crazy and has been talked about before on IRC and such, so im just going to drop some calcs.

252Atk Life Orb +1 Sheer Force lvl 5 Totodile (Neutral) Waterfall vs 156HP/196Def Eviolite lvl 5 Mienfoo (+Def): 69% - 91% (16 - 21 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.

252Atk Life Orb +1 Sheer Force lvl 5 Totodile (Neutral) Waterfall vs 0HP/0Def Eviolite Levitate lvl 5 Misdreavus (Neutral): 95% - 109% (21 - 24 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO. 66% chance to OHKO.

252Atk Life Orb +1 Sheer Force lvl 5 Totodile (Neutral) Waterfall vs 36HP/120Def Eviolite Levitate lvl 5 Misdreavus (Neutral): 69% - 91% (16 - 21 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.

252Atk Life Orb +1 Sheer Force lvl 5 Totodile (Neutral) Waterfall vs 36HP/20Def Eviolite lvl 5 Murkrow (Neutral): 91% - 117% (21 - 27 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO. 66% chance to OHKO

252Atk Life Orb +1 Sheer Force lvl 5 Totodile (Neutral) Ice Punch vs 228HP/220Def Eviolite Storm Drain lvl 5 Lileep (Neutral): 69% - 84% (18 - 22 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.

I mean, its no scraggy, but its still a very fearsome sweeper.
 
Treeko, (possibly Torchick), Chimchar, and Snivy are also starters that would possibly rise in usage if they were able to use their DW abilities. I do wonder though... Due to the nature of LC, you just need to be a first form and be able to evolve-so what if the new gen gives Pachirisu, Delibird, Mawile, and Sableye evolutions? With the exclusion of Sableye, the pokemon listed are pretty crappy. Would Mawile change things with a pure steel typing? Ground and Fighting being dominate attacking types could possibly prevent a Scyther treatment. It's not out of the ball park that these pokes could evolve, so would they be like Missy/Murkrow and become top threat, go the way of Scyther and get a ban, or be a easily to forget Onix?
 
TailsTheeFox said:
Treeko, (possibly Torchick), Chimchar, and Snivy are also starters that would possibly rise in usage if they were able to use their DW abilities. I do wonder though... Due to the nature of LC, you just need to be a first form and be able to evolve-so what if the new gen gives Pachirisu, Delibird, Mawile, and Sableye evolutions? With the exclusion of Sableye, the pokemon listed are pretty crappy. Would Mawile change things with a pure steel typing? Ground and Fighting being dominate attacking types could possibly prevent a Scyther treatment. It's not out of the ball park that these pokes could evolve, so would they be like Missy/Murkrow and become top threat, go the way of Scyther and get a ban, or be a easily to forget Onix?
Click to expand...

Theres a few things out there due for an evolution, and some of them could cause quite a riot. You have already brought up to that could become quite viable. Sableye is in fact one of the most notable potential-LCers out there. Prankster and Recover could easily drive him over Missy as the number one defensive ghost, relegating her to the role of fast special threat (ie NP or Scarfer). His unique typing, while depriving him of the incredibly handy ground immunity (for the trade of an almost inarguably much superior ability), would come in handy; a lot of threats rely on getting those super effective hits to take out key targets (see: Drilbur using Shadow Claw and X-Cissor over Rock Slide, a highly superior move coverage wise), so without any achilles' heel he could prove quite the tough cookie to crack, from the standpoint of sweepers. He's no slough on the offensive either, packing a mean 75 Attack, and he has the movepool to use it too. He is quite the priority monster in fact; equipped with a Fake Out just 1 point short of that of Mienfoo's, reliable power in a STAB Shadow Sneak, and to top it all off, a STAB Sucker Punch that, with full investment, matches the power of standard Murkrow. With supporting moves like Will-O-Wisp and Knock Off to round out sets, and of the all-important reliable recovery, he could easily make himself a top tier threat.

Another interesting one you brought up is Mawile. She actually does have a lot going for her. She has an attack stat to match the titans of Mienfoo, Murkrow and Drilbur, and Sucker Punch and a fair STAB move in Iron head, to back it. She has Stealth Rocks, Knock Off and Taunt, and even Magnet Rise to help around those lethal weaknesses shes carrying. Unfortunately, even with 85 defense, too many attackers could have their way with her through the ever present Fighting and Ground attacks. She could use her impressive ability, Intimidate, to hep mitigate the damage she takes in trades, and ultimately work her way into a few niche roles. She's effectively a more support-oriented Pawniard, and even he's found his way onto teams despite his similar, but even more devastating in the form of a 4x fighting weakness, unfortunate typing. She might even have something for her in the form of an offensive Sheer Force moveset, maybe even with Swords Dance, for the does have a movepool enough to abuse it.
 
What if the Pomeg Glitch existed in gen 4/5?
A few pokémon would benefit from it. First, the obvious Porygon with download and tri attack would be legal, though I don't think it would change the meta that much except for an agility + three attacks download set. It could be interesting, I guess.
The biggest addition would probably be Rufflet, which would probably be the new preferred flying scarfer. Access to a powerful dual STAB, same attack as Murkrow, and access to Superpower and U-turn would make it a great scarfer. Besides, I can imagine a pivot set with u-turn/bravebird/roost/return or superpower coming to life, with its good 70/50/50 defenses and decent defensive typing. There's Golett too, which can run Shadow Punch now to beat Missy and act as an even better fighting check. It has a good base 74 attack, decent 59/50/50 defenses, and a lot of coverage moves; however, it still lacks some power and is slow, so I don't expect it to come be any better than now.

What if the starters got their Dream World abilities?
Before you say anything, no, Snivy would still be bad in this meta. Low speed, bad Special Attack and no coverage moves, coupled with terrible bulk means Snivy wouldn't last long in the Little Cup arena.
Totodile is interesting: Sheer Force Waterfall hits extremely hard, one-shotting nearly every pokémon in the meta except the bulkier ones such as Mienfoo or Bronzor. I can very well imagine a Dragon Dance/Waterfall/Ice Punch/Crunch (or Aqua Jet) set, that can beat most threats in the meta. It seems like a really good setup sweeper, and its power can be compared to behemoths such as Shell Smash Tirtouga's or Scraggy's.

Now...
What if Murkrow got Nasty Plot?
We all know how scary MixKrow is, breaking down walls and destroying everything in its path. Now, imagine if the thing you thought to be subroost murkrow used Nasty Plot on your Magnemite switch-in and proceeded to OHKO you with Heat Wave before slaughtering your team... Nasty Plot Murkrow would be a scary sweeper, taking advantage of the sheer number of sets it can run to surprise the opponent and launch powerful boosted attacks. It has really good special coverage between Dark Pulse, Heat Wave and Hidden Power Grass, or perhaps you want to defeat fighting-types and grass-types easier with Hidden Power Flying? Or maybe trick your opponent with Sucker Punch, thinking you're a physical one? Nasty Plot Murkrow would be a versatile threat that every team should be prepared for.
 
What if Numel got Slack Off?

Currently, Numel isn't very prominent in LC; the only viable set, in most people's opinion, is Simple Stockpile to get +2 on defensive stats. But if it got a recovery move, such as Slack Off, it would rise in popularity, and sets such as Stockpile/Slack Off/Rock Slide (or HP Rock)/Earthquake (or Earth Power) would become very common. Bulky Water-types would be almost mandatory to counter it. Thoughts?
 
What if the starters got their dream world abilities?

People have already mentioned Totodile, with a Dragon Dance set being a decent sweeper. I agree with Sarkynin in that a Dragon Dance set would look something like Dragon Dance / Ice Punch / Waterfall and either Crunch for Misdreavus and also for Frillish I guess since Frillish walls it otherwise. However, Aqua Jet could be used to hit Drilbur in sand (does it even have priority with Sheer Force?) Swords Dance sets could also be used and would be an extremely threatening wall breaker. I think Swords Dance sets would be more likely to carry Aqua Jet than the Dragon Dance set since Totodile is not boosting its speed the priority would be nice.

Overall, I am not sure if Totodile would have a big impact on the LC scene since it has to contend with the likes of Scraggy, Timburr, Tirtouga, etc for a physical sweeper but it would be a nifty little attacker. Croagunk and Ferroseed's usage may go up since Croagunk is immune to Water thanks to Dry Skin and has Stab priority in Vaccuum Wave to hit Totodile on its weaker defense and bypass its speed boosts. Ferroseed can take any hit from Totodile really and beat it with Bullet Seed/ cripple it with Thunder Wave. To help with this. Totodile sets might run Swords Dance with Brick Break over Crunch / Aqua Jet to lure in and beat Ferroseed however, the tier already has a lot of common Fighting-types that keep Ferroseed in check so I am not quite sure what I am getting at with that point lol.

If Torchic got Speed Boost I can see it getting higher in usage. Its got a great special attack sitting at base 70 and although Torchic doesn't have good coverage it could still abuse Speed Boost. A moveset of Fire Blast / Hidden Power Grass / Protect / Baton Pass would be the ideal set imo. Fire Blast / Hidden Power Grass provide the best coverage that Torchic can manage and if given a Life Orb, Fire Blast would be very powerful. Protect is obvious to rack up speed boosts and block Fake Out from Mienfoo. Baton Pass is what I like the most on this set. Being able to pass on the speed boosts to a pokemon that would appreciate it.

Hazards would be the bane to Torchic and same with strong priority moves so common Pokemon like Murkrow can easily beat this set with Sucker Punch or getting up a Substitute on Torchic while it Protects and then hitting it with Brave Bird. Torchic checks would still have to worry about Torchic Baton Passing since with speed boosts it should be able to pull one off unless there is priority around.

A Swords Dance passing set would be difficult to pull off, however if Torchic is able to get a Swords Dance passing to things like Scraggy would be very menacing for the opponent.

If Treecko got Unburden it would be better, but still not to effective in the metagame. Acrobatics + Flying Gem would now be decent on Treecko since it gets the Unburden boost, at +1 speed depending on the nature Treecko can now speed tie with Drilbur in sand, which is something I guess but without Leaf Storm Treecko can't do enough damage to Drilbur. Leaf Storm also lowens special attack which is not ideal on a set trying to sweep. Besides Drifloon already pulls of an Acrobatics + Flying gem set better, it has Stab on Acrobatics and a fast Destiny Bond. Like Treecko it also sits at 17 max speed.

I guess a Swords Dance Oran Berry set could be used to activate Unburden and attempt a sweep but Treecko is not bulky enought to pull it off without Eviolite and priority moves would be able to pick it off still. Besides, there are many physical sweepers with over Treekos base Attack of 45.

What is Murkrow got Nasty Plot

Sarkynin covered this very well and with Nasty Plot Murkrow would be an amazing late game sweeper. I can see it being useful by getting to +2 as your opponent switches in their Bronzor/ Magemite or Chinchou/Tirtouga and hitting them with Heat Wave and Hp Grass respectively (I havn't done calcs, but with a LO they prolly KO) It would be a great wall breaker, although not having Sucker Punch meas Misdreavus with tbolt could have a chance to beat it, but that would be pretty rare plus Misdreavus would have to win the speed tie. Infact, this Murkow set would do great against Misdreavus since Misdreavus would mainly go for Will-o-Wisp assuming its physical only to be set up on or hit with a Dark Pulse.
 
What if Slowpoke got Baton Pass?
Know it or not, Slowpoke actually gets Belly Drum. Now what if it got Baton Pass as well?
This would be risky as hell. Slowpoke would need to run full defensive EVs and hope to take two hits and pass the attack boosts. However, with Regenerator, if it can pull off such a tactic sweeping will be amazing.
Trick Room teams will go up as they can actually take advantage of this, especially Tirtouga who can survive a hit with Sturdy and sweep.
On the downside, mons low on physical defense will go down in usage like Happiny.
 
What if Numel got Slack Off?
Numel would actually become really viable. Not only could it run its signature Stockpile set with Lava Plume and Earth Power or maybe Toxic, but it could also utilise its support movespool much more effectively with moves like Stealth Rock and Yawn. It would also have an easier time walling Magnemite, Pawniard, Ferroseed etc... I don't think it would affect things too much though. Drilbur/Staryu/Chinchou are still on a lot of teams and I think that Numel would still struggle to fight for a team spot over something like Chinchou or Ponyta.
 
What if Yanma and Carvanha were let back into LC and Speed Boost was Banned?
Carvanha was a huge threat in DPP, and I feel will continue to be with powerful Priority. Awful defenses leave it open to priority and Snover has a ball with it, but I would be open to Rough Skin Carvanha.
Yanma, while a bad typing, has Compundeyes which is still a good ability. His coverage is great, and LCs great Spinners make up for the stealth rock weakness.
 
bobbyvaporeon said:
What if Yanma and Carvanha were let back into LC and Speed Boost was Banned?
Carvanha was a huge threat in DPP, and I feel will continue to be with powerful Priority. Awful defenses leave it open to priority and Snover has a ball with it, but I would be open to Rough Skin Carvanha.
Yanma, while a bad typing, has Tinted Lens which is still an awesome ability. Murkrow and Misdreavus no longer resist Bug Buzz, and His coverage is great.
Click to expand...

Yanma doesn't have Tinted Lens. It has Compoundeyes.

Answering the same question, Carvanha would become a very strong Sub attacker, a traditional set. Sub bypasses those low defenses and priority. I still don't think it would be that impacting on the meta because it is checked by Mienfoo, very common mon. It is also slow, which means without a Sub most stuff take it out.
Yanma on the other hand will imo be huge. This is due to a Compoundeyes boosted Hypnosis that allows it to easy put stuff to sleep. 20 Speed puts it at the highest speed tier in LC, outspeeding threats like Missy, etc. A quadruple resistance to fighting types allows it to check the majority of Fighting types in the tier, as most do not carry Stone Edge. The only downfall it has is Stealth Rock, but hazards aren't quite as ubiquitous as in the upper tiers. Yanma would be a great addition to the meta.
 
what if Ferroseed got Rapid Spin?

Firstly, flavour-wise Rapid Spin makes perfect sense on Ferroseed since its animation shows it spinning around at a 'rapid' speed and competitive wise it just gets better...

Ferroseed would instantly be up there with Drilbur and Staryu for premier spinner in the tier and I can also imagine it gaining more usage. Steel is the best defensive type in the game while Ferroseeds Grass-type lets it get easy switchins on Pokemon like Staryu and Chinchou. Add that to its bulk and Leech Seed, recovery and you have a pokemon that is quite difficult to take down and it has a lot of opputunities to switch in and spin away hazards.

With Ferroseed being at the top with Drilbur and Staryu so to speak, the use of hazards may decrease. Or will it? Ferroseed still stands out as one of the best hazard setters in the tier with its typing, bulk and access to Stealth Rocks and Spikes. A common moveset could be Gyro Ball /Bullet Seed, Leech Seed, Rapid Spin, entry hazard. Ferroseeds could also use Protect or Thunderwave instead of an entry hazard since after all hazards aren't essential in lc and it may not be to difficult to find another Stealth Rock setter anyway since Hipopotas, Drilbur, Lileep, Tirtouga, Archen and Bronzor are all common Pokemon that can learn it. Protect in tandem with Leech Seed could make Ferroseed harder to take down and it could also scout for choice scarfers. Thunderwave on the other hand, cripples sweepers trying to set up on ferroseed.

With Ferroseed rising in usage I think Magnemite will too, since it can trap and ko Ferroseed with Hp fire. Common Fighting-types like Miefoo and Timburr will still remain high in usage because of their ability to hit Ferroseed super effectively. Fire-types could also rise in usage Larvesta in particular not only because it counters Ferroseed well, being able to switch in easily and threaten with Flare Blitz or gain momentum with U-turn, but also because it would be an amazing team mate with Ferroseed and they would form a nice defensive core, Ferroseed spins away hazards which obviously fuck up Larvesta and it can also take on Water and Rock-types that threaten Larvesta. Larvesta on the other hand, can switch in to the Fighting-types or Pokemon that can set up on Ferroseed like Scraggy and Pawnaird and cripple them with Flame Body or Will-o-Wisp. It could also strike the opponent hard with Flare Blitz. Add in a Frillish and this would be the best Fire/water/grass core! Frillish provides a secondary Fighting resist, a fire resist and spin blocking.
 
What if Nosepass got Magic Bounce?

It should be noted that the only mons gifted with the ability Magic Bounce are also weak to Dark And Ghost, types which offer a vast array of mons with many tricky status moves. What makes this bad is that the Dark and Ghost mons can still overpower the Magic Bounce carriers, hitting them for super effective damage with their STAB attacks, which really makes Magic Bounce partly a waste as far as its distribution. The raw point of this in relevance to the LC tier is that Natu CAN block Krow's Confuse Ray and T-wave, and Missy's WoW, but they don't give a damn because they can mow Natu down with force anyway. With the sheer high usage of such mons in the tier, and as good as they are, this makes Magic Bounce far less appealing than its effects entail.

But what if a mon who wasn't weak to those types could get Magic Bounce? Imagine Prankster Krow vs Magic Bounce Nosepass, or really ANYTHING who could break this typical pattern of Magic Bouncers being defensively weak to so many of the common tricksters. To me, this is a very happy thought, and I believe that such an addition could be fruitful to the LC metagame and could bring Magic Bounce's true worth to the forefront.
 
Goddess Briyella said:
What if Nosepass got Magic Bounce?

It should be noted that the only mons gifted with the ability Magic Bounce are also weak to Dark And Ghost, types which offer a vast array of mons with many tricky status moves. What makes this bad is that the Dark and Ghost mons can still overpower the Magic Bounce carriers, hitting them for super effective damage with their STAB attacks, which really makes Magic Bounce partly a waste as far as its distribution. The raw point of this in relevance to the LC tier is that Natu CAN block Krow's Taunt and T-wave, and Missy's WoW, but they don't give a damn because they can mow Natu down with force anyway. With the sheer high usage of such mons in the tier, and as good as they are, this makes Magic Bounce far less appealing than its effects entail.

But what if a mon who wasn't weak to those types could get Magic Bounce? Imagine Prankster Krow vs Magic Bounce Nosepass, or really ANYTHING who could break this typical pattern of Magic Bouncers being defensively weak to so many of the common tricksters. To me, this is a very happy thought, and I believe that such an addition could be fruitful to the LC metagame and bring Magic Bounce up a notch.
Click to expand...
I still think nosepass would be used less than natu with magic bounce due to nosepass being weak to many common attack types where natu really only has to fear from mons it really shouldn't be staying in on if it knows their set. Also Murkrow can lose to natu in some cases like with the parafusion set. Nosepass has to deal with EQs from drilbur and many other mons while the ever prominent fighting type is lurking in LC.
 
kingmitus said:
I still think nosepass would be used less than natu with magic bounce due to nosepass being weak to many common attack types where natu really only has to fear from mons it really shouldn't be staying in on if it knows their set. Also Murkrow can lose to natu in some cases like with the parafusion set. Nosepass has to deal with EQs from drilbur and many other mons while the ever prominent fighting type is lurking in LC.
Click to expand...

Magic Bounce Nosepass would have access to Air Balloon if needed, but Krow and Missy certainly wouldn't be bossing it around as a supporter like Natu. It's true that Missy has HP Fighting for Nosepass but at least it isn't a OHKO like Shadow Ball is on Natu. It's also true that there is a Fighting type on most teams (if not all teams) in LC, and Nosepass would be at a clear disadvantage, BUT these Fighting types also don't carry moves that Magic Bounce can deflect, so there's absolutely no reason to rely on Nosepass to stay in and face them. Also, Natu never beats Missy or Krow, ever.

I just feel that it's such a waste how the greatest ability ever for checking status moves can't be put on a mon who can take at least one offensive hit from the main mons who abuse status moves, and this has bothered me for a long time.
 
Nosepass would be an okay user of magic bounce since it can actually switch into dwebble and take it out. It can also wall parafusion krow to hell and back. However, Natu has access to Roost which gives it a much longer life span and can wall fighting-types and more importantly grass-types including the spore users and ferroseed. Basically I think Natu and Nosepass would work very differently and fit different teams better. I don't think Nosepass would be massively useful though without any form of recovery.
 
I ran some calcs, and the relevant moves I could come up with off the top of my head (236 Atk Scraggy's High Jump Kick, the same move from 236 Atk Mienfoo, 236 Atk Drilbur's Earthquake) end up doing at least 70% to 76 HP/236+ Def/196 SpD Eviolite Nosepass, while unboosted offensive Misdreavus' HP-Fighting does 40-50% (this last part is not in a sandstorm). I'm too lazy to do the rest of the calcs right now. On Bri's idea, however, I'd like to submit Shelmet as our new Magic Bouncer. It's got better HP than Nosepass and marginally lower defenses, coupled with better defensive typing (it loses to Brave Bird, but we can't have everything) and access to Spikes and Recover that Nosepass would kill for.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top