Gen 7 Let's Go OU Viability Rankings


[art by AmirAlexander]

Welcome to the official LGPE OU Viability Rankings thread! This thread will be used by the community in order to rank all usable Pokémon in the LGPE OU Tier. You're encouraged to civilly post your thoughts and opinions on the various Pokemon that are usable in LGPE OU and what rank they should fall under. The general idea of the topic is to rank each LGPE OU Pokemon under "rankings" that go in descending order.

To make ranking these Pokemon easier the LGPE Council has come up with a list of positive and negative attributes each Pokemon should meet to fit a certain rank. Positives: Threat level, Splashability, Consistent, Effect on the metagame, Reliability. Negatives: Passive, Outclassed, Weak to Hazards, Speed, General Bulk, Matchup. However, something to remember while ranking is that filling criteria is not a black and white process. Pokemon A might have a stronger effect on the metagame compared to Pokemon B, but Pokemon B might still influence teambuilding a lot. Take into account the varying degrees of these criteria as you reflect on a nomination.

Current VR Council:
Eve
Kris
Vengeance417
McCoolDude
CasualPokePlayer

S Rank:
Pokemon in this rank fill all of the main criteria and then some with a strong proficiency in one or more of the positive traits. If a Pokemon in this rank has any downsides, they are usually tame or eclipsed by their obvious assets.

S
Mew
S-
Zapdos

A Rank:
Pokemon in this rank may fill the majority or all of the positive criteria. These Pokemon may have one major or a handful of minor negative characteristics that could set them back.

A+
A
A-
Rhydon
B Rank:
Pokemon in this rank do an alright job fulfilling criteria, albeit not as convincingly. These Pokemon will have some issues you should be accounting for while building your team.

B+
Gengar​
Nidoking​
B
Chansey​
Clefable​
B-
Mega Kangaskhan​
Alolan Persian​
C-Rank:
Pokemon in this rank do a mediocre job at filling criteria. The sizable amount of negative characteristics associated with these Pokemon are something to weigh against their positives before you fit one on a team.

Upper
Mega Blastoise​
:dugtrio:Dugtrio​
:golem: Golem
:hitmonlee: Hitmonlee​
:jolteon:Jolteon​
:kingler:Kingler​
Mega Pinsir​
Rapidash​
Mega Slowbro​
Victreebel​

Lower
Arcanine​
:kabutops:Kabutops​
:machamp:Machamp​
:magneton:Magneton​
Moltres​
Ninetales​
Alolan Ninetales​
:vaporeon:Vaporeon​
D Rank
  • Everything Else!
 
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Just copy-paste from the previous VR thread.

Nidoqueen is the queen of ground types, and I don't think the rating really represents that.

View attachment 194438

B+ -> A-

Queen is the bulkier and slower of the two Nidos, and while that can be viewed as a negative, Nidoqueen is able to utilize its bulk and whatever speed it has and successfully do its job. One job, checking Muk-A. Specifically, being able to switch in without taking much damage and threatening a STAB EQ.

Nidoqueen Earthquake vs. Muk-Alola: 134-162 (74.4 - 90%)
Muk-Alola Crunch vs. Nidoqueen: 49-58 (29.6 - 35.1%) -- 14.9% chance to 3HKO

You might note that Nidoqueen does not KO, while this is true, Nidoqueen threatens Muk-A with major chip, enough chip for Muk-A to be swept by M-Gengar and the like. It should be noted this is actually somewhat similar to Dugtrio-A, which also doesn't guarantee a KO, and is a 50/50 chance for a KO after rocks, and will take major damage from Muk-A, so you really can't switch in.

Dugtrio-Alola Earthquake vs. Muk-Alola: 144-170 (80 - 94.4%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Muk-Alola Crunch vs. Dugtrio-Alola: 78-93 (70.9 - 84.5%)

It should be noted for my examples I use Relaxed Nidoqueen (more on its mixed capabilities later), and unlike Dugtrio-A, who needs a Speed+ nature (to outspeed the base 100's, which is very important for its role), Nidoqueen does not really need to do that, and the only real downsides to using a Speed- nature is now being outsped by Poliwrath and Cloyster (and possibly a mirror match, but Nidoqueen is UU by usage so that's not exactly a common thing), both of which already had a very good matchup against Nidoqueen. If you want to, you could use a Brave nature to reach a higher attack stat than Dugtrio-A, and gain a higher chance to KO Muk-A after rocks, although you won't tank as well as you with Relaxed.

Nidoqueen Earthquake vs. Muk-Alola: 150-176 (83.3 - 97.7%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Muk-Alola Crunch vs. Nidoqueen: 58-69 (35.1 - 41.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Another job Queen can do fairly well is deal with Zapdos. Immunity to Tbolt, Twave, and Toxic and great overall bulk allow Nidoqueen to really punish Zapdos. This is where Queen's mixed capabilities start to shine. While Ice Punch does slightly better with damage, this only applies to the Timid Zapdos, Bold is now becoming more and more frequent, along with Reflect, so Ice Beam shines as a way to directly damage Zapdos and counter cheeky Reflects. Toxic can also be used to wear down Zapdos (along with Mew on the switch). This is especially good against Drill Peck Zapdos who tries to be cheeky and kill before Toxic can wear it down (although it's only a chance at a 4HKO).

Nidoqueen Ice Beam vs. Zapdos: 58-70 (35.1 - 42.4%) -- 82% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Zapdos Drill Peck vs. Nidoqueen: 39-46 (23.6 - 27.8%) -- 77.8% chance to 4HKO

Nidoqueen can also function as a semi-check to Dugtrio-A. Dugtrio-A's EQ can't KO Nidoqueen, but Queen can KO with its own EQ.

Dugtrio-Alola Earthquake vs. Nidoqueen: 116-140 (70.3 - 84.8%)
Nidoqueen Earthquake vs. Dugtrio-Alola: 158-188 (143.6 - 170.9%)

Nidoqueen can also semi-check Melmetal, a 3HKO with EQ and (most of the time) a 2HKO with Fire Blast.

Nidoqueen Earthquake vs. Melmetal: 80-96 (38 - 45.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Nidoqueen Fire Blast vs. Melmetal: 94-112 (44.7 - 53.3%) -- 31.3% chance to 2HKO (84.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock)

Melmetal Earthquake vs. Nidoqueen: 116-138 (70.3 - 83.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Queen has many uses in the meta, and I don't think B+ properly states how well it can function.
 
Not sure if this is the right forum, but does anyone know why LGPE ladders have been removed and are they coming back?
 

B+ -> A-

Gonna echo the Nidoqueen nomination. I'd say Nidoqueen is a step above Mega Charizard X in terms of viability. Very few Pokemon in the metagame (the others being Nidoking, Alolan Dugtrio, and the nonexistent Magneton) have access to both a Thunder Wave and a Toxic immunity, and Nidoqueen just so happens to be the bulkiest one. It's a trait just about any support Pokemon would kill to have. This allows her to be a huge thorn in Zapdos's side, being immune to Thunderbolt on top of the aforementioned Toxic and Thunder Wave. Nidoqueen cements herself as being one of the best Alolan Muk checks in the entire game, as well.

She's also very adept at dishing out large amounts of chip damage to most of the metagame in the form of Super Fang (which is so safe to use early-mid game and takes a huge chunk out of fat mons like Melmetal, Poliwrath, Snorlax, etc), a perfectly-accurate Toxic, and STAB Earthquake, and all 3 of these moves have phenomenal synergy with each other as Earthquake hits the Pokemon that are immune to Super Fang (Gengar and the rare AWak) and Toxic (other Poison- and Steel-types) for a lot of damage. This makes Nidoqueen a phenomenal partner for fast sweepers like Mega Zam, Mega Aero, Mega Bee, and Mega Gar that can take advantage of all of this chip that she can dish out, like landing a Super Fang on Melmetal which all 4 of these Mega Pokemon highly appreciate, while Zam + Gar love how Queen can check AMuk as well as she does. Meanwhile, Mega Gyarados, Starmie, and other Water-types love Queen's ability to take Zapdos on.
 
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j to note that for offensive teams that dont care about spreading toxic, nidoqueen has the option to run body slam instead and since most zapdos literally cannot touch nidoqueen except with u turn and gengar is never switching into a healthy nidoqueen as noted^, she can fish for paras pretty easily
 
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Surprise! It's time for the first VR update of the year. The last one was in September, and plenty has changed since then; this probably doesn't even accurately cover everything, but it's a good start.

lgpemay.png


Most of the small changes are ones we considered to represent the meta more accurately- as a result, we didn't write much in the way of explanations. For the big changes, however:
:nidoqueen: Nidoqueen has greatly risen up the tier's rankings with the late discovery of how amazing its rare access to Super Fang is. After a Super Fang, switchins to offensive Mega Evolutions such as Mega Aerodactyl, Mega Alakazam and Mega Beedrill are no longer switchins at all. Combine this amazing support with Nidoqueen's great coverage, Toxic immunity, being the best Zapdos wall, switching in decently on Alolan Muk, and setting Stealth Rock, and you have a great Pokemon. The only thing holding it back is its somewhat lacking offensive presence outside of Super Fang.

:charizard-mega-y: Hayburner proved how ridiculous Mega Charizard Y could be in his dominant run through the LGPE Summer Seasonal, and it has been used to solid success since. To put it simply- 4x Stealth Rock weakness or not, this Pokemon 2HKOs Alolan Muk with Fire Blast. Of course, said Stealth Rock weakness in combination with its middling Speed for an offensive Pokemon can make it very hard to use effectively and sometimes leave it feeling like deadweight, counteracting its immense power, hence it only landing in B-.
:exeggutor: This thing spams Leech Seed and Sleep Powder, and has a useful Ground resistance. It's held back by its vulnerability to the omnipresent U-Turn though.
:machamp: Very lacking in defensive utility, but far from lacking in offensive presence- Machamp is likely to leave a mark if played carefully.
:primeape: Primeape isn't quite the hitter that Machamp is, but its coverage alongside STAB Low Kick and a fairly speedy U-Turn are desirable traits.
:vaporeon: Vaporeon is an alternative bulky Water-type that trades Poliwrath's Fighting-type for a higher damage output, but is generally worse and loses to Mega Gyarados instead of beating it.

Please feel free to share your opinions or suggest new placements! Also, the real reason we put out this VR update right now is that we wanted to prepare for, and announce, our new LGPE Analyses subforum! Check it out if you're interested- we'd love to have more writers :psysly:
 
~ it doesnt seem like theres been changes made reflecting the ban of m-gengar. im not sure what the basis should be for doing so when the ladder was already removed prior to the ban but just leaving the rankings as is doesnt make sense either.

as a minimal starting point, i think the viability of the normal types needs to be reviewed.
1) i think snorlax is now way too high ~ the most threatening sp attacker is now m-zam which doesnt run status moves so facade is less valuable while the typing of a-muk is even better against psychic than it was vs m-gar. and when lax doesnt get statused facade is weak. and the matchup vs base form gengar is completely different bc whereas m-gar trading with lax was a win for lax, base form gengar is generally happy to trade damage, that is often exactly what gengar wants to accomplish now is weakening/crippling opposing special wall to create an opening.
snorlax still has the unique feature of being an initial switch-in to both mew's offensive and defensive sets bc of its special bulk and being a burn absorber but thats rly the one significant reason to use it over a-muk. it takes too much damage from m-zam's psychic to rly be a good response to it at all esp when unboosted facade only does ~50% back and unstatused lax doesnt really check np mew at all unless it runs crunch (or body slam), and these are now the two key special attackers to check. based on all of this i think A- rank is way too high.
maybe there can be more set creativity bc earthquake is maybe not mandatory anymore w m-gar banned, the moveslot could be used to run body slam alongside facade, and maybe self destruct could see more use too. i think that is too speculative to base a ranking on, however.

2) tho eevee-s's niche is obv its signature moves, its normal typing was significant in the m-gar meta bc it could check sets lacking sludge bomb pretty effectively and even sludge bomb sets could sometimes struggle with a healthy eevee-s bc of the possibility of paralysis from buzzy buzz, or glitzy glow if m-gengar tried to use substitute to block a potential buzzy buzz. while eevee-s rarely had room for both those moves there wasnt a good way to scout and the threat would sometimes be enough to force m-gar out. eevee-s wasnt a m-gar check but it could be a backup or at minimum a way to force m-gar to use a move other than shadow ball.
in a tier where role compression is central, eevee-s having a role not solely limited to spreading and curing status was crucial in my view to being able to make space for it on a team. for example, m-gyara being the teams primary special wall was more reliable with eevee-s as a second semi check to m-gar.
eevee-s now does not check anything very important (obv base form gengar but that isnt rly something u need to carry a strong check to) so its very hard to justify using a teamslot for, particularly on bulkier teams where it supposedly fits best but which want to have as sound checks to everything as possible and eevee-s will compromise that by taking up a valuable teamslot.
B+ is way too high. honestly im not sure it should be ranked at all now but im probably devaluing it too much.

3) idk that mega kang has any viability, as i also brought up on the gengar analysis. its normal typing is now largely useless defensively, so its bulk isnt as good as its stats suggest in fact it doesnt rly switch into any offensive pokemon. sucker punch is still good for revenging m-zam but it doesnt help vs np mew due to softboiled and facade is less valuable now as with snorlax, to me it j rly doesnt offer enough to be worth taking up the mega slot.

the only normal i am okay with the placement of is chansey. it wasnt that dependent on its ghost immunity anyway due to its special bulk and in some ways it does even better vs m-zam than vs m-gar bc m-zam has no room for substitute and also isnt immune to toxic. i think B is fine

there are definitely other pokemon very impacted by m gar ban but this felt like a clear place to start
 
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~ it doesnt seem like theres been changes made reflecting the ban of m-gengar. im not sure what the basis should be for doing so when the ladder was already removed prior to the ban but just leaving the rankings as is doesnt make sense either.

as a minimal starting point, i think the viability of the normal types needs to be reviewed.
1) i think snorlax is now way too high ~ the most threatening sp attacker is now m-zam which doesnt run status moves so facade is less valuable while the typing of a-muk is even better against psychic than it was vs m-gar. and when lax doesnt get statused facade is weak. and the matchup vs base form gengar is completely different bc whereas m-gar trading with lax was a win for lax, base form gengar is generally happy to trade damage, that is often exactly what gengar wants to accomplish now is weakening/crippling opposing special wall to create an opening.
snorlax still has the unique feature of being an initial switch-in to both mew's offensive and defensive sets bc of its special bulk and being a burn absorber but thats rly the one significant reason to use it over a-muk. it takes too much damage from m-zam's psychic to rly be a good response to it at all esp when unboosted facade only does ~50% back and unstatused lax doesnt really check np mew at all unless it runs crunch (or body slam), and these are now the two key special attackers to check. based on all of this i think A- rank is way too high.
maybe there can be more set creativity bc earthquake is maybe not mandatory anymore w m-gar banned, the moveslot could be used to run body slam alongside facade, and maybe self destruct could see more use too. i think that is too speculative to base a ranking on, however.

2) tho eevee-s's niche is obv its signature moves, its normal typing was significant in the m-gar meta bc it could check sets lacking sludge bomb pretty effectively and even sludge bomb sets could sometimes struggle with a healthy eevee-s bc of the possibility of paralysis from buzzy buzz, or glitzy glow if m-gengar tried to use substitute to block a potential buzzy buzz. while eevee-s rarely had room for both those moves there wasnt a good way to scout and the threat would sometimes be enough to force m-gar out. eevee-s wasnt a m-gar check but it could be a backup or at minimum a way to force m-gar to use a move other than sludge bomb.
in a tier where role compression is central, eevee-s having a role not solely limited to spreading and curing status was crucial in my view to being able to make space for it on a team. for example, m-gyara being the teams primary special wall was more reliable with eevee-s as a second semi check to m-gar.
eevee-s now does not check anything very important (obv base form gengar but that isnt rly something u need to carry a strong check to) so its very hard to justify using a teamslot for, particularly on bulkier teams where it supposedly fits best but which want to have as sound checks to everything as possible and eevee-s will compromise that by taking up a valuable teamslot.
B+ is way too high. honestly im not sure it should be ranked at all now but im probably devaluing it too much.

3) idk that mega kang has any viability, as i also brought up on the gengar analysis. its normal typing is now largely useless defensively, so its bulk isnt as good as its stats suggest in fact it doesnt rly switch into any offensive pokemon. sucker punch is still good for revenging m-zam but it doesnt help vs np mew due to softboiled and facade is less valuable now as with snorlax, to me it j rly doesnt offer enough to be worth taking up the mega slot.

the only normal i am okay with the placement of is chansey. it wasnt that dependent on its ghost immunity anyway due to its special bulk and in some ways it does even better vs m-zam than vs m-gar bc m-zam has no room for substitute and also isnt immune to toxic. i think B is fine

there are definitely other pokemon very impacted by m gar ban but this felt like a clear place to start
Great post! I'd like to quickly share my opinions on some of these, and I'll try and get other active players to give their own thoughts on the VR too.

:snorlax:
I agree that Snorlax is generally slightly overrated, but I don't think it should be dropped that far. Many LGPE teams have a massive tendency to overload on Pokemon weak to Earthquake, and using Snorlax over Alolan Muk aids slightly in mitigating this by not being a free entry point for users of the move. Snorlax also has an edge on certain builds with Self-Destruct, letting it provide offensive momentum for its team that Muk simply can't. I wouldn't drop Self-Destruct at the moment- the meta is settling into a state of breaking down the opponent for powerful cleaners, and booming can be very useful for that. Body Slam is also pretty underexplored and lets Snorlax better ruin many of its switchins with paralysis and slightly higher power- with less Wisp running around after Mega Gengar's ban, Body Slam is a more viable option than ever.

:eevee-starter:
this mon is really, really awkward to fit on teams. it's never really offered any significant defensive utility in my opinion because sludge bomb ended up being an almost universal staple on mgar, and its offensive presence is lacking too. it's a weird support mon that can usually only do its job once, and while its job is valuable, i agree that it's not valuable enough to put the mon on par with genuinely great options that you see on a variety of teams instead of very specific ones that want to abuse Rest (which often takes away a valuable moveslot for other Pokemon anyway). I would be absolutely on board with dropping Eevee into the lower/mid B section somewhere, but I think it's still important enough to avoid the Cs or being unranked.

:kangaskhan-mega:
I disagree with this being bad. While its Normal typing doesn't offer any resistances, it also gives Kangaskhan next to no weaknesses, a trait that makes its high bulk actually give it the survivability you'd expect and let it pivot in on several offensive Pokemon. Along with this, Kangaskhan has great coverage options and strong dual priority in Fake Out + Sucker Punch to compliment its very solid Attack stat. Facade being its best STAB is honestly the main thing that holds Kang back, but even that can be destructive if you manage to switch it in on a Toxic aimed at Mew or a stray Wisp. Kangaskhan has never felt like a waste of a mega slot to me and combines offensive and defensive utility in a way nothing else really can, making it worthy (imo) of a respectable rank.

:chansey:
You didn't really have much to say but yeah, I agree that Chansey is fine where it is. In some ways it got better because of better beating the current best special breakers/sweepers, in other ways it got worse because of the even higher prominence of physical attackers like Mega Aerodactyl and Beedrill. It roughly balances out as Chansey's role has always been polarized like this anyway, and building with it has to account for that.


I'm going to be nominating a few brand new Pokemon I've been pushing into the spotlight after the Spotlight Tournament concludes, and I know for a fact that others will too. The meta's still extremely far from 'solved' and I look forward to seeing what everyone else comes up with to take advantage of trends!
 
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Great post! I'd like to quickly share my opinions on some of these, and I'll try and get other active players to give their own thoughts on the VR too.

:snorlax:
I agree that Snorlax is generally slightly overrated, but I don't think it should be dropped that far. Many LGPE teams have a massive tendency to overload on Pokemon weak to Earthquake, and using Snorlax over Alolan Muk aids slightly in mitigating this by not being a free entry point for users of the move. Snorlax also has an edge on certain builds with Self-Destruct, letting it provide offensive momentum for its team that Muk simply can't. I wouldn't drop Self-Destruct at the moment- the meta is settling into a state of breaking down the opponent for powerful cleaners, and booming can be very useful for that. Body Slam is also pretty underexplored and lets Snorlax better ruin many of its switchins with paralysis and slightly higher power- with less Wisp running around after Mega Gengar's ban, Body Slam is a more viable option than ever.

:eevee-starter:
this mon is really, really awkward to fit on teams. it's never really offered any significant defensive utility in my opinion because sludge bomb ended up being an almost universal staple on mgar, and its offensive presence is lacking too. it's a weird support mon that can usually only do its job once, and while its job is valuable, i agree that it's not valuable enough to put the mon on par with genuinely great options that you see on a variety of teams instead of very specific ones that want to abuse Rest (which often takes away a valuable moveslot for other Pokemon anyway). I would be absolutely on board with dropping Eevee into the lower/mid B section somewhere, but I think it's still important enough to avoid the Cs or being unranked.

:kangaskhan-mega:
I disagree with this being bad. While its Normal typing doesn't offer any resistances, it also gives Kangaskhan next to no weaknesses, a trait that makes its high bulk actually give it the survivability you'd expect and let it pivot in on several offensive Pokemon. Along with this, Kangaskhan has great coverage options and strong dual priority in Fake Out + Sucker Punch to compliment its very solid Attack stat. Facade being its best STAB is honestly the main thing that holds Kang back, but even that can be destructive if you manage to switch it in on a Toxic aimed at Mew or a stray Wisp. Kangaskhan has never felt like a waste of a mega slot to me and combines offensive and defensive utility in a way nothing else really can, making it worthy (imo) of a respectable rank.

:chansey:
You didn't really have much to say but yeah, I agree that Chansey is fine where it is. In some ways it got better because of better beating the current best special breakers/sweepers, in other ways it got worse because of the even higher prominence of physical attackers like Mega Aerodactyl and Beedrill. It roughly balances out as Chansey's role has always been polarized like this anyway, and building with it has to account for that.


I'm going to be nominating a few brand new Pokemon I've been pushing into the spotlight after the Spotlight Tournament concludes, and I know for a fact that others will too. The meta's still extremely far from 'solved' and I look forward to seeing what everyone else comes up with to take advantage of trends!
~ i agree with pretty much everything u said abt lax (with maybe the exception of the importance of the eq weakness, nidoqueen's eq isnt that strong its other moves are often more threatening, special attackers like zard x that sometimes run eq are ones a-muk doesnt check very well anyway, and a-muk does much better vs rhydon despite its eq weakness so im not sure exactly where u feel the eq weakness is so significant). i see self destruct and possibly body slam as its biggest strengths but both had been somewhat unused (obv body slam especially) and i wasnt sure if there was enough play to rank snorlax on the basis of those moves. but if there is evidence of those moves effectiveness in practice, then im fine with say B+ which is about where it sounds like u think it should be.

~ the exception was mega drain m-gar, which usually preferred to run two status moves, and mega drain wasnt bad coverage for lax and especially effective vs chansey due to the recovery so sludge bomb wasnt as needed. i know that mega drain m-gar never rly had much use but it was st i had promoted a while back (also as a possible anti-lead due to its excellent coverage vs rocks setters and the advantage of being able to mega evolve immediately) and it was something i felt was very threatening and always wanted to account for, particularly on an m-gyara team. also for 3 attacks sludge bomb m-gar, eevee-s still helped cover a-muk or m-gyara's vulnerability to wisp, since that means m-gar wasnt running substitute and therefore eevee-s could force it out with the threat of buzzy buzz if it could come in on shadow ball (or ofc after a ko), and then potentially cure the burn w sparkly swirl. overall, since there really weren't any truly solid checks to m-gar, healthy eevee-s being able to force it out with buzzy buzz / glitzy glow if it came in after a ko or managed to switch in on m-gar's otherwise most spammable move was significant.
anyway i agree with your description of it overall, and since it can only use sparkly swirl once or at most twice it makes teammate's ability to use rest very inconsistent in addition to rest taking up a valuable moveslot on top of eevee-s taking a teamslot. idk if it is going to be higher than c-rank i think there needs to be specific team structures where eevee-s can be shown or at least argued to be effective and worth the teamslot, since it obviously isnt splashable and almost needs to be built around. in the m-gar meta i felt that eevee-s + m-gyara + melmetal was such a team structure where m-gyara could get away with being the team's only special wall with eevee-s support and both mons are bulky and love being able to run rest, even tho the zapdos weakness was a significant problem and the fighting type weakness sometimes too; but that team structure doesnt make sense anymore.
unless there are specific teams or 'types of teams' where eevee-s is shown to be effective, i think even B- is too high given its extreme unsplashability and how much u are giving up by choosing to use a teamslot for it and the moveslot on whatever teammate(s) run rest. maybe a bit comparable to chansey which also has one specific role tho not nearly as unsplashable, which was raised to B bc of specific team structures it was shown to function on, starting with zap / mvenu / chansey.

~ i wasnt arguing that m kang cant take some hits, and it has a decent 1v1 vs many offensive pokemon but doesnt rly switch in directly. zam's psychic is 2hko and eg maero, mbee, zapdos, all 3hko with their stabs. while mew doesnt 3hko mega kang doesnt check np mew very well at all unless mew drops softboiled so it is only rly switching into defensive mew. so how is what i said incorrect @ not switching into offensive mons.
anyway, i dont see how its debatable that mega kang is much worse now than it was before m-gar was banned. especially since it struggles significantly with m-aero. so either it was underranked before or it is too high now.
 
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Collette

formerly Collesque
Aight, been playing this meta for about 4 weeks now and am having pretty good success in friendlies and in tours, so I feel up to sharing some opinions on the viability slate right now. This post will contain my nominations for pokemon that should rise. A later post I make will contain nominations for drops.
I was too late in writing to be consistent about capitalization of pokemon names, sorry if that will bother you.
Please feel free to 2nd or disagree anything said here, discussion is always a benefit to the meta.
:sm/zapdos: A+>A
Zapdos's current place on the slate does not reflect at all the benefits it offers a team or its usage. Zapdos demands a dedicated answer in Nidoroyalty, Alolan Dugtrio, or a conjunction of softer checks like Rhydon and Alolan Muk. Tbolt is otherwise very scary to switch into, and the response it forces makes zapdos one of the best users of U turn in the game. This is combined with how long it stays in the game with roost, and the stressful priority that people feel to land a toxic on zap. It matches up very favorably with melmetal, especially reflect zapdos sets, it can pivot in on any of melmetal's moves barring ice punch and threaten large chunks of damage with tbolt. Zapdos is easily the 3rd best non mega and it should not take much to at least consider it for A+.

:sm/alakazam-mega: A>A-
Alakazam was something I initially thought was a very weak pokemon, but I have since come around. Mega zam's performance is certainly a lot more inconsistent or match up dependent, but it can be brutally hard to deal with. I've seen it utilized in a very powerful way when combined with other special attackers like Cloyster and Starmie. When other pokemon wear down your special answers like Muk or Mew or Melmetal or Snorlax, it can set up a CM pretty easily and run through a team. The main selling point of mega alakazam is that it's not very common to be able to check it offensively, as the only pokemon that can even speed tie it is obviously mega aerodactyl, where adamant is the preferred nature and you only get a 50% chance to kill the zam in the first place. While not as domineering at the pokemon in A+, mega alakazam clearly outshines the pokemon in A-.

:sm/sandslash: A-/B+>B
Sandslash has been seen on a number of successful teams in the spotlight tour and on the ladder, which does not mean that it deserves a higher spot just because of its usage, but it means it has had a lot of exposure to what it is capable of, and I think it could be as viable as the pokemon found in A-, or the best B+ pokemon at the very least. I will be making many comparisons to rhydon as they are very similar pokemon. Sandslash is a much more reliable stealth rocker than alolan dugtrio and rhydon, by virtue of its better bulk and defensive typing respectively.
Rhydon is easily denied rocks by the very popular and viable scald mew set, as well as almost any other pokemon with a grass or water move. Rhydon is also unable to switch into dugtrio, nidoqueen, nideoking, sandslash, or mega aero, as being weak to EQ heavily weakens its switch in opportunities. It also is usually OHKOd by double iron bash, meaning in a melmeltal lead situation, Rhyhorn will have to sacrificed for rocks. Dugtrio faces a similar dilemma, it is so damn frail that it is very rare that it can get up rocks without risking its life or almost all of its health. Dugtrio is still a fine rocker, but as the offensive threat that it is, it really does not like having the responsibility of being a sole rocker, it will greatly hinder its ability to preform other roles in the game.
Sandslash does not have these issues, it is very hard to deny Sandslash rocks. The only pokemon in the S, A, or B viability ranks that can OHKO sandslash are Mega Charizard Y, Starmie, and for the sake of accuracy, Hydro Pump Mega Gyrados. Sandslash also can easily switch into and avoid the 2HKO from Mega Aerodactyl, Dugtrio, and Rhydon, which lets it get up rocks on these pokemon without prediction or momentum. Unlike Rhydon, Sandslash can also go hard into any attack from Melmetal, with adamant double iron bash being a max roll of 70%. This improves the lead matchup with Melmetal greatly and lets sandslash get up rocks even when you're in a bad situation(like switching into a melmetal). Sandslash living any hit from melmetal is also relevant to Counter. Counter is a cool option for Sandslash that lets it potentially OHKO or 1v1 a pokemon that is about to do heavy damage, like OHKOing mega gyrados, or Poliwrath, or outspeeding melmetal and killing it the next turn. It also lets Sandslash abuse Mega Beedrill, dealing heavy damage to an opposing team using their own U-turn. Example: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7letsgoou-1175265943-633oijvkudmf00us4tvi7n0qk0fpg31pw
A- might seem like a stretch and maybe it is, but I've seen it consistently outperform the pokemon in B+, and it certainly is more viable than the pokemon in B.

:sm/cloyster: B+>UC
three subranks :o. In writing the analysis for Cloyster I ended up using it quite a bit on ladder, and I've seen it used several times in the spotlight tour as well. I'm really not sure why it was this low. Cloyster admittedly, cannot be used as it is in other tiers, it rarely outright wins, it lacks the power. However what Cloyster is incredibly good at is wallbreaking. By boosting its speed past every other pokemon while still doubling its attack's damage, it forces the opponent to use a defensive check, not an offensive one. This puts your opponent in a situation of unavoidable damage, letting you remove or significantly chip something so that a threatening partner, most notably Mega Alakazam but also other attackers, can finish the job. Cloyster's hydro pumps are strong enough to bring high HP pokemon like Mew or Melmetal into the range of most attackers, and it has the ability to use self destruct to deal massive damage or KO pokemon that would normally hard stop Cloyster and other special attackers, like Mega Gyrados, Alolan Muk, and Snorlax.
(I'm not recommending using surf I'm just using it to demonstrate reliability when possible).
+2 Cloyster Surf vs. Melmetal: 138-163 (65.7 - 77.6%)
Mega Alakazam Shadow Ball vs. Melmetal: 70-83 (33.3 - 39.5%)
Mega Aerodactyl Earthquake vs. Melmetal: 72-86 (34.2 - 40.9%)
Starmie Scald vs. Melmetal: 64-76 (30.4 - 36.1%)
+2 Cloyster Hydro Pump vs. Mew: 118-141 (67.4 - 80.5%)
(pokemon that can capitalize on a low health mew are easy to imagine)
+2 Cloyster Self-Destruct vs. Mega Gyarados: 135-159 (79.4 - 93.5%)
Starmie Thunderbolt vs. Mega Gyarados: 56-66 (32.9 - 38.8%)
Mega Alakazam Dazzling Gleam vs. Mega Gyarados: 78-94 (45.8 - 55.2%)
Mew U-turn vs. Mega Gyarados: 40-48 (23.5 - 28.2%)
+2 Cloyster Self-Destruct vs. Snorlax: 204-241 (86.8 - 102.5%)
(dead to anything or dead)
+2 Cloyster Self-Destruct vs. Muk-Alola: 183-216 (101.6 - 120%)
(dead)
I feel like a mistake that might have been made about Cloyster is lumping it with omastar, when it reality, being able to outspeed everything after a boost is a massive massive bump in viablity for the Pokemon, because it being able to FORCE damage onto the opponent is very valuable. It also has the trait Cloyster has always had; massive defense letting it set up relatively stress freely(especially in a physical meta)notably living any hit from adamant Melmetal after stealth rock. It has tournament results and I encourage you to try it out for yourself, paired with special attackers, I think you'll find it easily places with the other B+ pokemon.

:ss/dugtrio: B- > UR
Dugtrio is a perfectly viable sidegrade to alolan dugtrio. Alolan dutrio is still a better option usually, hence the letter of my nomination, but dugtrio has some interesting advantages that you should consider. Stats-wise, Dugtrio trades 10 defense for 10 speed, which would normally sound great considering how frail duggy is, but he also loses a steel typing, which is bad for the most part. On the surface level this would seem like dugtrio has the small, consequential niche of outspeeding Persian-Alola and Starmie, but in practice what this actually means, is that dugtrio can viably run an adamant nature and still outspeed the crucial base 100 mark, something that alolan dugtrio cannot do. This is crucial for a number of things, like improving damage vs melmetal, securing OHKOs on pokemon like nidoking and nidoqueen after rocks, doing more to to alakazam and bee with sucker, etc. TLDR: 10% more damage is good. Losing the steel typing can also be nice in situations where it is better to not be weak to EQ, but mainly is not so good, hence why it is 4 subranks below the steel type counterpart. Losing the steel type makes you a target for toxic, not resist U turn, take twice as much damage from rocks, and lose an immunity and multiple other resistances. It's worth noting however that Dugtrio can bluff jolly and force out things that actually outspeed it like alolan duggy and gengar.
It's up to you and your teamcomp to decide which duggy is better, but either way, it's a fast electric immunity with a strong STAB that hits melmetal, def not unranked material.
:sm/persian-alola: Really fun pokemon, putting in work on ladder, spotlight tournament, and friendlies, I was gonna nominate for something like B, but it was pointed out to me that many of my opponents were taken by surprise by the pokemon as they did not know what it did, so I'll be holding off on nominating until I'm sure its not new toy syndrome.

in no way reserving the nomination, anyone else feel free.
 
i second esp sandslash-k and cloyster rises

a couple noms ~

kingler ~ B-/B (?)
kingler is in a bit of an awkward position as a physically bulky water, defensively it is mostly outclassed by poliwrath as the m-gyara matchup is significantly worse, it cannot 2hko melmetal due to lacking low kick, and it does not "resist" stealth rock, while as a sweeper it is mostly outclassed by cloyster due to having no way to effectively damage m-venusaur and the lack of self-destruct. however, kingler has the potential to fill both roles (tho it can almost never do both within the same match) so it can be played as a sweeper or defensively depending on the situation. for example, paired with m-aero either m-aero can be sacrificed to get extra damage on melmetal which kingler can then set up on, or kingler can be used as a melmetal switchin and switchins to crabhammer such as poliwrath, mew are pokemon that m-aero needs weakened. but differently from say dragonite kingler has a clear defensive role as a bulky water and melmetal switchin.
the fact that agility takes up a moveslot but is irrelevant in many matches, isnt too important since u mostly want to be spamming crabhammer esp when kingler is being used defensively.
m-venusaur (and also in many cases dragonite) is a big problem bc kingler cannot accomplish much at all against it, which rly disrupts both its defensive and offensive functioning even more so than poliwrath. otherwise it fills the standard defensive roles of a water type (which cloyster cannot rly do despite being physically buliker, due to being weak to rocks and neutral to double iron bash), tho unlike poliwrath it cant switch into m-gyara directly, and it is hard for 'most' teams to switch into. its frailty on the special side honestly isnt usually very important. the biggest loss from poliwrath is the resistance to rocks (and to rock slide) but the threat of agility and crabhammer's power bring their own advantages.
an adamant nature is kind of obligatory so that x-scissor does >50% to mew on average, preventing mew from roost stalling, and preventing even wisp mew from switching into crabhammer after almost any chip damage without being in ko range of burned x-scissor the following turn, tho jolly lets it outspeed nidoq and esp m-gyara, and improves its chances vs dragonite if kingler is running rock slide (rather than superpower) in the fourth slot but once its nature is revealed it will have significant issues with mew.
(idk how much detail i should be putting in nomination, eg if i should include offensive and/or defensive damage calcs.)

golem ~
im not sure exactly where i think it goes but i think the gap between golem and rhydon is way too large. as described in the sandslash-k nom above, rhydon has major momentum problems due to how easily it is forced out and golem having explosion as well as never being forced out by muk-a helps with that significantly. once rocks have been set golem can generally use explosion pretty freely, nothing that resists or is immune to explosion wants to switch into golem on any other move, and even pokemon like poliwrath or mew that arent ohko'ed by explosion will be crippled (even tho mew has recovery it generally requires being at decent health to function effectively, for example to threaten burns or to threaten setup). if the opponent doesnt have zapdos the explosion trade is almost always favorable for golem and even if they do it can be beneficial. exploding is j generally valuable in this meta bc every poke on a team plays an important role, and golem's explosion in particular turns a situation that otherwise almost always gives momentum to the opponent into a neutral or advantageous one.
golem/rhydon almost always want to set rocks the first time they use a move, so needing to use explosion on rhydon's toxic targets isnt rly a big issue. if anything explosion requires less prediction since toxic can be taken advantage of by eg m-venu, tho it does mean golem has to be more careful abt not getting burned. rhydon's stats are rly only slightly better, and megahorn is almost never used anyway. im honestly not sure rhydon should be ranked above golem at all but A to C- is def much too far apart
 
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Collette

formerly Collesque
2nd half of my post was supposed to be nominations for drops, but I only ended up having one, so here it is lol.
:sm/kingler:
First of all I 2nd juoean's nomination of Kingler, but to a lesser degree. I think UC would be a good fit for it. When I initially considered the Pokemon some time ago I believed it to higher, but now I'm left wondering why you would choose it over Dragonite as an agility Pokemon, being weaker and frailer with less potent coverage, with debatably worse defensive typing. It also has worse typing and embarrassing special bulk compared to Poliwrath. It's still a bulky water type tho, and its role would be a (physically) bulky water with great offensive presence cuz of its very high power water move, that also has set ambiguity with the potential to run agility, and might be found on teams weak to mega Aerodactyl, because it can usually set up on it easily.
It's about as viable as many of the Pokemon in UC, but many Pokemon there are too low, so B- might work for it.

I also agree that Golem and Rhydon are too far apart, in conjunction with its STAB attacks explosion can be pretty difficult to deal with, outspeeding Muk is cool, and the marginal spedef can come in handy. It's still a worse option, but it's not fairly represented.
Thankfully the gap between Golem and Rhydon can be partially solved by my next nomination, which is
:ss/rhydon: A->A
Rhydon has consistently under preformed its rank both against me and for me. Getting up rocks is absolutely essential in LGPE, there is almost no matchup where it is not of hyper importance. Therefore it is the job of Stealth Rock users to get up rocks reliably, and do as much as they can in addition to that. Rhydon is held back by god awful typing, which leaves it forced out and denied rocks by every viable grass or water type in the tier, as well as scald mew, the most common SR setter. It also cannot switch into earthquake users, limiting early game hazard viability even more. The last detriment of its typing would be leaving it OHKOd by Melmetal. All of these factors mean its very easy to deny Rhydon hazards, and in the case of melmetal, rhydon is required to sacrifice its life to get the hazards up. Rhydon does boast a very high attack stat compared to other, much better stealth rock users like Mew, Sandslash, and Nidoqueen, but due to the burden of having to get up rocks combined with its abysmal speed, it rarely gets to exercise this, or wallbreak. Rhydon also struggles as a Zapdos check, being an easy target for toxic, and often losing 1v1 to reflect variants. Nidoqueen does a better job at countering Zapdos, being immune to toxic, a better rocker, and resisting U-turn. I feel like Nidoqueen and Sandslash cover the things Rhydon does much better than it does, and you would only choose it when looking for a mixture of the 2. All of this said, Rhydon is still a great physically bulky Pokemon, being immune to electric and being a good check to Pokemon like mega bee, Mega Aero, and Dragonite. Certainly a A rank pokemon, but not deserving the same rank as Nidoqueen.


I had a couple more nominations but I feel really sleepy for some reason so I'll either doublepost later or edit this one.
 
i dont think dragonite is a good comparison to kingler at all bc dragonite can generally only use its stab move after setting up and is very dependent on agility in general, whereas kingler's crabhammer can be used freely and kingler often has no need to use agility at all. water is a better stab type bc of melmetal and grounds and honestly x-scissor provides quite good coverage for the tier's water resists not named m-venu, tho its bp is a bit low. i dont agree at all @ dragonite having an arguably better defensive typing, most teams without zapdos want a water type, but i guess it depends to some extent and dragonite's ground immunity is no doubt useful. however obv dragonite has other big advantages, roost being the most important.
(im assuming eq/outrage dragonite)
and to clarify i dont think agility should ever be dropped, some teams can be somewhat weak to kingler and u want to have agility as an option for when you come across such teams, while the 'cost' of agility taking up a moveslot just isnt very important for kingler. forcing opponents to play around a potential agility is more useful than the benefit of eg running both superpower and rock slide, or running some other move like (toxic or facade or idek, defensive mew needs to be at ~90% to be able to switch into crabhammer after rocks and still be able to burn kingler without being koed that turn by x-scissor so toxic isnt really needed and facade i guess could help to 1v1 toxic poliwrath lol? but if kingler gets burned it cant check melmetal at all which is what it is supposed to do.)

and if i wasnt clear abt this i agree with rhydon dropping, tbh further maybe in B+ together with nidoking. i think both fall into collesque's description of usually outclassed by either nidoqueen or sandslash-k in fulfilling their desired roles. rhydon is a bad switch-in to u turn from zap/m-bee which it is supposed to check due to being forced out by so much, and even if it is able to come in on m-aero's rock slide it cant ohko so has to choose between setting rocks or dealing heavy damage but likely sacrificing getting up rocks which is v risky vs m-aero. the rock typing is disastrous defensively and honestly not even that useful offensively. my golem post was meant to indicate that either rhydon should drop or golem should rise (or both), i was commenting on the gap between them but wanted to see what others thought abt where they should both be

edit ~ actually i think nidoking is more viable than rhydon, it is more offensively threatening in practice, much more reliably sets rocks bc of its speed tier and defensive typing, and is arguably just as effective defensively bc of how much rhydon struggles to actually come in. eg, adamant/naughty nidoking still usually 2hkos melm but is not ohkoed back; nidoking is more consistent overall to check zapdos (at least currently) with drill peck being rare and its immunity to toxic and u turn resistance; and has its own advantages vs m-beedrill with its u-turn resistance.
rhydon's attack stat is rly its only advantage over sandslash-k which is of questionable value given rhydons limited chances to attack, while nidoking has clearer reasons to use over queen w its significantly better speed tier, favorable 1v1 with opposing nidoqueen, and depending on its coverage moves potential to pressure waters not named starmie rather than being forced out by them.
rhydon does have its place on many m-beedrill (or other u-turn/teleport centered) teams, where pivoting it in can offset its def typing issues, and some paraspam teams, paralysis support flipping some of its bad matchups and particularly creating opportunities for its substitute+megahorn set.
 
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They stole my Kingler nomination, can't have crap in Detroit

:sm/kingler:
Kingler UR -> B-/B: Agree
Having used Kingler a lot lately, I'm absolutely convinced that it deserves a placement within the B Ranks. Being a Pokemon that can either break down Melmetal or set up on weakened Melmetal is extremely valuable considering the prominence of our metal friend, meaning Kingler is useful on a game-to-game basis. Pressuring every Ground-type (except like, idk, TBolt Nidos) is really valuable too. It makes for a solid pairing with the 3 fastest Mega Evolutions, as they all benefit from Melmetal being weakened or can weaken it themselves for a Kingler sweep later. I've mostly used it with Mega Aerodactyl who I consider the best of the three at cleaning up games. I agree its viability is somewhat close to certain C+ Pokemon, but I'd say those Pokemon are ranked too low and it's more consistent than everything there anyway.

Anyway, here's a unique nom:
:ss/jolteon: :ss/electrode:
Jolteon UR -> Somewhere above Electrode
Jolteon is, in most ways, a better Electrode. Electrode's only advantage is Speed, which notably lets it outspeed Mega Beedrill and speed tie with Mega Aerodactyl and Mega Alakazam. Being able to Thunder Wave these Pokemon is pretty much all Electrode has going for it, which is matchup dependent and relies on your opponent actually letting it happen when they could instead switch into one of several Ground-type Pokemon that completely invalidate Electrode. Jolteon's actual offensive presence and access to most of the same useful moves as Electrode makes it generally a better choice- for example, it gives Hyper Offense teams an extremely useful dual screens setter without having to sacrifice a slot to something as passive as Electrode. Its Shadow Ball is impressively strong, dealing upwards of 40% minimum to Rhydon and Mew, while Electrode's best coverage option is its non-STAB Foul Play that does pitiful damage to almost everything. Jolteon can also use sets such as Yawn + Protect or Toxic + a chosen Screen (probably my favourite variant) in order to increase the number of foes it can apply pressure to, and of course can also use Thunder Wave on Para-Spam teams. tl;dr Jolteon's offensive presence makes it less of a dead slot than Electrode and therefore much easier to fit on most teams. I'm not yet sure whether Electrode should also drop, but in my opinion Jolteon should absolutely be ranked higher than it as the second best Electric-type in LGPE OU.

Other miscellaneous things:
:arcanine: If/when we clear the good Pokemon out of C+, Arcanine could rise into that rank. It's not spectacular but it usually performs well enough despite its Stealth Rock issues to warrant being used on teams, using its colorful movepool to pressure a variety of targets. It plays like a budget Mega Charizard X, which is not at all a bad thing to be.
:charizard-mega-x: Dragon Tail is a move that has been immensely underrated, and top mons, such as Mew, Mega Gyarados, and of course Mega Charizard X, are the foremost abusers of it. Denying and chipping switchins and spreading Stealth Rock damage while also preventing setup is simply amazing and makes these already troublesome Pokemon even harder to handle. Mew's usage of the move is especially interesting, most notably being used on a set featuring Bulk Up, Amnesia, and Rest that is capable of setting up on, and cleanly mowing through, many teams without any issues due to the rarity of Fairy-type Pokemon. I don't think Mew or Mega Gyarados benefit enough from this to rise above their already amazing rankings, but Mega Charizard X has potential. Watch this space!
:rhydon::golem: The old-school player in me has tried to reject these thoughts for a long time, but you're both correct. Rhydon is flawed and not actually much better than Golem at all when you step outside a vacuum and into the actual meta.
:dodrio: Thrash is ridiculously powerful. This thing can be a monster on Para-Spam teams with it, being able to set up and OHKO Zapdos and Mew after Stealth Rock. By far its most impressive variant, and certainly a step above other variants in viability.
:dugtrio: Using this section to state that I agree with all of Collesque's rise nominations too, with the possible exception of regular Dugtrio who may be better suited to C+. Still trying to decide my stance on this one.

Thanks to both of you for sharing your thoughts!
 
(sorry ~ i was going to wait for your noms @ kingler but i wasnt sure when u were going to post them )
also j a note that thunder(bolt) nidoqueen would almost certainly be -speed so kingler would be faster and therefore only have to worry abt it on the switchin. otherwise i agree exactly with eve's description, including that m-aero is the best mega to pair kingler with but that it can work with zam or bee too, thank you for writing the nom in a much clearer / direct way than i was able to.

~ idk that i agree about jolteon. its speed tier isnt really useful with m-gar banned, or rather its speed tier is only relevant in enabling it to run modest. shadow ball doesnt even 3hko nidoqueen after rocks the most important ground type, and doesnt 2hko sandslash-k (both calcs are not accounting for spdef drop chance). zapdos's u-turn is generally preferable to jolt's shadow ball against ground switchins, with the key exception of dug-a which jolteon outspeeds and 2hkos with shadow ball. jolt's shadow ball is however somewhat more spammable than zapdos's u-turn, particularly given that jolt isnt weak to rocks. but if u want something to spam shadow ball u are prob better off with gengar, which gets stab on it and also has more useful utility options like wisp (and hypnosis over yawn, if people rly think yawn is viable on jolteon) which i think is more important than screen(s) and twave which jolt doesnt use all that well anyway. jolteon's typing is supposed to enable it to check zapdos, but since it does less than 50% the matchup isnt rly in jolteons favor most of the time (tho zapdos def cant switch into it).
i do think jolteon can be ranked somewhere, it is sort of an interesting middle ground between zapdos and gengar, and esp on teams worried about starmie which is the main matchup advantage it has over both and can even switch into directly one time if necessary. but in most cases, if u want the offensive presence of shadow ball + tbolt gengar is better bc tbolt is better as coverage for shadow ball than vice versa plus getting wisp and sludge bomb if u want to run it, while if u want the better defensive typing and bulk zapdos is better as roost + ground immunity + pivot more than makes up for the rocks weakness particularly since it can check melmetal.

~ i completely agree about dragon tail and a pokemon that absolutely has to be mentioned @ dragon tail is exeggutor-a. the negative priority suits its low speed and even with a -attack nature it deals decent damage, and it is perfectly fine to run dragon tail as its sole dragon type stab as all other dragon types are weak to rocks and hate being phased out, and mega drain + flamethrower is pretty good coverage for everything else. while eg rhydon is a terrible dragon tail user to to the likelihood of it being forced out by whatever is brought in, a healthy exeggutor-a is really only forced out by ice beam starmie and ice punch poliwrath, and i guess ice beam nidos (and maybe zard-x depending on the situation but staying in and clicking dragon tail again is likely worth it to prevent zard x from using roost). so it can play more like m-gyara or mew using dragon tail relatively freely without overly fearing what will be phased in. it also frees up the fourth moveslot for hypnosis/stun spore since teleport is somewhat redundant with dragon tail. if a team is looking for a dragon tail abuser i think exeggutor-a should be one of if not the first option to consider as by the far the best dragon tail user that doesnt take up the mega or mew slot. (nature is also quite flexible, id usually choose -speed as outspeeding a-muk is irrelevant since u are clicking dragon tail anyway and idk how much outspeeding rhydon matters unless its running megahorn its prob switching out rather than going for rock slide flinches but i think -attack is okay too. id prob run relaxed in most cases but its def flexible)

~i agree at dodrio as well, and i think dropping drill peck for thrash + quick attack is very viable too as +2 thrash still almost ohko's m-venu and gengar isnt super relevant plus u rly want gengar removed first regardless of moveset bc of speed tie. my main concern abt dodrio's viability is m-aero which counters it forever.
 
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Collette

formerly Collesque
last 2 nominations I'll be making until the next slate update or meta development:
:sm/golem-alola: Unfortunately due to the ladder not being available I have not been able to test this very well, so I'll be sticking to a LC rank nomination. Golem deserves higher but it's possible Alolan Golem does not. It's still an option for a sidegrade to rhydon and golem however. The cons of using alolan golem are gaining a x4 EQ weakness, losing STAB EQ, and losing an electric immunity. The pros are gaining thunderwave, gaining a unique offensive typing, and most importantly, losing x4 weaknesses to grass and water. This means you are not denied rocks by the very common scald mew, which is really good for a lot of teams. It also might be worth noting that alolan golem is not weak to steel, so you can switch into any hit from melmetal barring EQ and get up rocks, something golem and rhydon cannot do.
This pokemon is not anything special but I think it deserves getting ranked at least, and I don't think it's been mentioned prior to this point.

:sm/Persian-alola: decided on a rank for this guy, this is a safe bet, might be higher in the future. B->LC. The other relevant pokemon that outspeed base 100s and can taunt are Alakazam, Gengar, and Aerodactyl. This is important for teams that want to deny rocks from mew. The attributes that Persian-A have are an immunity, STAB foul play, and U-turn. STAB foul play cannot be overstated, it many things very hard, and does a great job at punishing pokemon like Melmetal who normally would not care about the attacks of a utility pokemon. U-turn is very nice on a fast pokemon like persian, it denies the opportunity for your opponent to double switch and racks on even more chip on pokemon like Mew that you have taunted and denied recovery for. I'm not even wording this very well, but I've used Persian-A a lot, it gets results, and I think it's for sure as viable as Zard Y and mega Kang, if not the pokemon in B.
Persian alola also has offensive potential in a fast nasty plot set, have not used it though so I can't say much about it. Def an option that should be respected though.
 
edit: while i dont think a-golem is viable (as addressed below), marowak-k *might* have some minimal viability as a rocks setter due to being specially bulkier than sandslash-k. for example, it is never ohko'ed by timid zard y or modest zard x's fire blast and 31% to be ohko'ed by neutral m-venu's mega drain, while sandslash-k is almost always, sometimes and always ohko'ed respectively. tho it is a bit frailer physically so eg it is not guaranteed to avoid being ohko'ed by adamant m-gyara's waterfall. 'ofc' the biggest loss is marowak-k's lower attack stat, eg never ohko'ing nidoking and never 2hko'ing melmetal with eq after rocks, as well as the loss of counter. marowak-k does have access to thunder punch for base form gyara trying to switch into earthquake while still covering m-aero, and i guess the paralysis chance is a small improvement over eq for other water types, for whatever that is worth. the lower speed tier mainly means it only outspeeds muk-a if it is sassy, and also prevents it from using its special coverage like ice beam which might otherwise be viable for the fourth moveslot but is even weaker than it would be already since impish is mandatory.
idk its hard to imagine truly wanting to use marowak-k over sandslash-k on a team, but if you are really worried about zard y, sandslash-k is a risky lead choice when you see zard in team preview, while marowak-k is not and outside of taunt users can always get rocks up turn 1 which is important against (rly both zard forms) so maybe can have a tiny niche.

idk at a-golem, bc offensively you are losing stab on eq which offsets its apparently high attack stat that is generally the reason for considering goldon over a sturdier rocks setter like sandslash-k, nidoqueen or clefable. the defensive typing is still terrible even if arguably not as bad as rock/ground, and without ground typing you are neutral to stealth rock and only sort of check zapdos even if you do manage to switch into tbolt, and the matchups with opposing grounds are all horrible since u are 4x weak defensively and dont have stab on eq offensively. if you rly want a rock setter with twave clefable can run twave over calm mind, since grounds are the best switchins to a-golem anyway itd be a bad twave user (and ofc taunt prevents twave too).
to have any viable niche over eg sandslash/clefable i think youd have to argue that based on either its electric stab or explosion. but explosion is less threatening due to no stab on eq to threaten resists/immunities (except m-aero but lol) and thunder punch while maybe interesting for hitting opposing waters esp poliwrath but the matchup with grounds is even worse and also giving free switchins to grounds is only making it easier for opponent to get up rocks.
what moveset(s) were u using or planning to use? earthquake is still mandatory even without stab, if you drop rock slide the zapdos matchup isnt even favorable at all, and you need at least one of thunder punch or explosion to have any theoretical niche at all
 
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:arcanine: If/when we clear the good Pokemon out of C+, Arcanine could rise into that rank. It's not spectacular but it usually performs well enough despite its Stealth Rock issues to warrant being used on teams, using its colorful movepool to pressure a variety of targets. It plays like a budget Mega Charizard X, which is not at all a bad thing to be.
idk what do ppl think about rapidash and arcanine in the tier? rapidash in particular has excellent mew and melm matchups and good 1v1s with a lot of the rest of the tier, i think people were overly worried about the rhydon matchup but most teams have good ways to take advantage of rhydon without rly considering it, even more so if rapidash/arcanine burn it. on the other hand, the sr weaknes + having basically no defensive utility + no recovery leave them basically only able to come in on u turn teleport or after a teammate faints, and they are also usually bad leads since their matchups vs rocks setters are poor, with the exception of rapidash vs mew, and arcanine vs dugtrio-a since arcanine is never ohkoed by eq (without a crit) and ohkos back with whatever fire stab it is running; which further limits opportunities to bring them in.
i am also unsure abt team structure, they would be good m-bee partners to bring in on u turn to threaten melm, except the rocks weakness doesnt rly fit well with that role when there are offensive options such as nidoking, exeggutor-a or even primeape. i have very little experience using or building with m-bee, however, so idk.

i do think rapidash is better than arcanine, the speed tier as well as megahorn's higher bp particularly vs. mew is rly important, and the fact that it really only needs two damaging moves means it can run two status moves (id usually choose wisp + hypnosis but toxic could replace either), as drill run is basically just for zard x. edit: it can also run dual stab, fire blast is so much better for melm but having flare blitz as the primary stab 1 allows rapidash to still run a jolly nature instead of hasty/naive bc the slightly reduced damage on melm doesnt significantly change the matchup, same goes for the matchup with sandslash-k, and 2 against everything else, fire blast gives rapidash a weaker stab option to use when the added power is not needed and the recoil is undesirable. i think hypnosis is rly useful for rapidash since it forces switches well and therefore may get two chances to land hypnosis before taking a hit. while arcanine has coverage for a few more pokemon like poliwrath and dragonite, it coverage moves are weaker, dragonite hates burn anyway and arcanine has to choose between wisp and toxic (or drop status for agility if ppl think that is viable?). arcanine's better bulk esp physically is relevant in a few situations, such as vs lead dugtrio-a as mentioned, but it still cant rly switch into anything bc of its typing and is still 2hkoed by almost evthg after rocks. arcanine does have a real option to run fire blast as its primary stab unlike rapidash due to its good special attack and eg decent chance to actually ohko melm after rocks.

lastly flare blitz is a rare recoil move in this tier, and in a tier with few set up moves or recovery moves, a fast attacker fainting from recoil can be somewhat useful nullifying the foes following move and then potentially gaining momentum. while eg zard x doesnt appreciate recoil bc it wants survivability, rapidash/arcanine are presumably fine with breaking down opposing pokemon and fainting to recoil since they are there to open up a path for a teammate most likely the mega or a different sweeper. but since there are basically no other relevant recoil moves in the tier that aspect hasnt rly been addressed

(i did not mention ninetales-k bc i dont think it has any viability, nasty plot which i assume is its supposed niche doesnt fit well with its sr weakness and bad defensive typing, low sp attack, sitting in the crowded base 100 speed tier, and having only dark pulse for coverage which doesnt help with poliwrath or mgyara, or rly any fire resists except starmie which outspeeds anyway.)
 
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:ss/jolteon: :ss/electrode:
Jolteon UR -> Somewhere above Electrode
Jolteon is, in most ways, a better Electrode. Electrode's only advantage is Speed, which notably lets it outspeed Mega Beedrill and speed tie with Mega Aerodactyl and Mega Alakazam. Being able to Thunder Wave these Pokemon is pretty much all Electrode has going for it, which is matchup dependent and relies on your opponent actually letting it happen when they could instead switch into one of several Ground-type Pokemon that completely invalidate Electrode. Jolteon's actual offensive presence and access to most of the same useful moves as Electrode makes it generally a better choice- for example, it gives Hyper Offense teams an extremely useful dual screens setter without having to sacrifice a slot to something as passive as Electrode. Its Shadow Ball is impressively strong, dealing upwards of 40% minimum to Rhydon and Mew, while Electrode's best coverage option is its non-STAB Foul Play that does pitiful damage to almost everything. Jolteon can also use sets such as Yawn + Protect or Toxic + a chosen Screen (probably my favourite variant) in order to increase the number of foes it can apply pressure to, and of course can also use Thunder Wave on Para-Spam teams. tl;dr Jolteon's offensive presence makes it less of a dead slot than Electrode and therefore much easier to fit on most teams. I'm not yet sure whether Electrode should also drop, but in my opinion Jolteon should absolutely be ranked higher than it as the second best Electric-type in LGPE OU.
depending on what ppl think about ranking jolteon, i think that magneton should be at least considered to be ranked somewhere. the main reason to use magneton over other electrics is that is a better paralysis spreader, since its stab flash cannon can cleanly ohko rhydon, and has much better damage against other grounds with the exception of dugtrio-a, tho it cannot 2hko nidoqueen and needs to be timid to outspeed it, so it is difficult to switch in to block its twave. even with its lower speed it can still paralyze any mew lacking fire blast, tho it importantly cannot paralyze mega charizard x other than on the switch, which is also the only common pokemon that resists its dual stab (outside of the frail dugtrio-a) so combined with its great sp attack stat magneton hits quite hard in general. magnetons defensive typing also enables it to perform a few other roles, it is an excellent switch-in to mega venusaur lacking eq (it takes a bit more from mega drain than melm does but on the other hand it doesnt really care about leech seed due to its low hp, can paralyze it and do 27-35% depending on nature with flash cannon); it can take a hit from and paralyze +2 tbolt/psychic mew; and it can survive any hit from +1 timid m-zam after rocks and paralyze it. although magneton does not check melmetal bc eq ohko's, it takes less from dib than any pokemon in the metagame besides other melmetal due to its 4x resistance and decent physical bulk, and 2hkos it with tbolt, so it can be used as a makeshift melmetal switchin in a bad situation. magneton is obv also immune to toxic and twave tho except for melmetal it does not generally switch in well to common users of either move (even if it predicts the status move correctly).

magneton's speed tier is very disappointing, particularly being outsped and ohko'ed by earthquake mega gyarados regardless of nature which is so frustrating for an electric type. it is also outsped and ohko'ed by dragonite's coverage tho if dragonite is locked into outrage magneton can either attack or paralyze it, and obv is outsped and ohko'd by nidoking and dug-a. the zapdos matchup is also frustrating, despite magneton's tbolt resistance and toxic immunity bc while zapdos takes a lot switching in to tbolt, if it is healthy enough to do so it can immediately roost safely.
unlike say jolteon, magneton doesnt rly have moveset flexibility, tbolt, flash cannon, twave are all mandatory (maybee thunder could replace tbolt but u still want twave anyway so i wouldnt do that). there are a few options for the fourth slot, teleport is prob the most consistent and is specifically the best move to use after a zapdos switch-in (it doesnt require prediction), tri attack obv is very luck dependent but is an interesting option to try to cripple nidos and dug-a and is somewhat spammable, but it makes the zapdos matchup a bigger problem, light screen or toxic could be options but probably not recommended bc teleport is better for zapdos and more useful generally.
both timid and modest are options, timid is to outspeed (neutral natured) nidoqueen and poliwrath (also kingler and m-blastoise) and tie unboosted cloyster, as well as to outspeed paralyzed timid m-zam and jolly m-aero, modest's better damage is obv useful for various targets notably muk-a and snorlax.

def nothing above c rank but i think there are some traits useful to paraspam teams, where rhydon can actually be somewhat of an issue, and having a good switchin to m-venu other than melm and an emergency check to standard np mew (one that does not have to sac itself to land paralysis) and m-zam can be valuable; while the biggest hinderance to magneton's viability, its speed tier, can be somewhat alleviated by teammates that can paralyze m-gyara and maybe even m-aero for it. eg to compare to other electrics if pikachu-s can be ranked then i think magneton def can be (tho idk if that ranking is only because of it being one of the special lgpe pokemon to just have it listed somewhere), raichu-a is an interesting comparison in terms of having different favorable ground matchups, raichu-a having cm vs magneton's much higher base sp attack, and raichu-a outspeeding and paralyzing zard x but being usually ohko'ed by m-zam after rocks, but they are also very different with raichus semi sweeping potential vs magnetons resistances/immunities
 
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It's time for another VR update! We invited Collesque to join in with voting this time, as she's possibly the most active player right now and isn't an lgpe boomer who's scared of change like the rest of us. Here it is!

New Placements
:dugtrio: UR to C+
:jolteon: UR to C+
:kingler: UR to C+
:magneton: UR to C-

Rises
:zapdos: A to S-
:alakazam-mega: A- to A
:sandslash: B to B+
:cloyster: C+ to B
:dodrio: C+ to B-
:omastar: C+ to B-
:persian-alola: C- to B-
:golem: C- to C+
:hitmonlee: C- to C+

Drops
:muk-alola: A+ to A
:rhydon: A to A-
:snorlax: A- to B+
:eevee-starter: B+ to B
:pinsir-mega: B- to C+
:slowbro-mega: B- to C+

Individual votes and reasonings can be found here, including those for Pokemon who were voted on but remain unchanged. We'd love to hear your thoughts on the VR as always- it's difficult to keep things 100% accurate on our own!

(the OP will be updated tomorrow as editing it on mobile is awful, sorry)
 
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Thanks for the update!

I know, double post bad, but I just noted another missing ranking. From the May 2020 update...

... Exeggutor hasn't been added to the OP. (Unless it has dropped to D Tier again in the meantime and I haven't noticed it.)

More generally: the mainstream status of LGPE as cute but shallow side-games, the removal of LGPE OU from the main Showdown server and the release of Gen 8 might lead people to believe that there is barely any Let's Go player base left. But it turns out that the hack of a matchmaking system there is on cartridge (triple Pikachu as passcode) still find games more often than not under a minute (!), and the vast majority of the resulting games play by Smogon LGPE OU rules (probably unintendedly, but still). So the format is in practice very, very alive, and your work appreciated.
 

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