Machamp (QC 3/3)

NatGeo

NatGeo

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the champion

I had a WIP but it got deleted when i reformatted my computer, so I'm just gonna put stuff here.

[Overview]

<p>Though Machamp has been a decent Pokemon throughout its career, the sadists at Game Freak really gave us a treat last generation with the addition of No Guard, allowing any of Machamp's attacks to hit; this includes a STAB Dynamicpunch, which is both powerful and guaranteed to confuse the opponent, making Machamp a very frustrating opponent sometimes. Machamp doesn't just annoy, however; its base 135 Attack does a lot of heavy lifting, allowing him to 2HKO quite a bit of the metagame with STAB Dynamicpunch, with a lot of things that can take it being dispatched by coverage moves.</p>

<p>All things considered, however, Machamp's Attack is the only thing that really shines, with the rest of its stats being decidedly average. Machamp really only has the defenses to come in on weaker hits; at the same time it is put in a disadvantageous position, being left in the dust by quite a few Pokemon, many of whom take out Machamp with relative ease. Thus, Machamp works best breaking apart defensive teams, literally punching his way to victory, though every team should have a check to Machamp, lest its members be on the ground in the aftermath of a killing spree by our overly muscular friend.</p>

[SET]
name: Sub + 3 Attacks
move 1: Substitute
move 2: Dynamicpunch
move 3: Stone Edge
move 4: Ice Punch / Thunderpunch
item: Leftovers
nature: Adamant
evs: 208 HP / 252 Atk / 44 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]

<p>Substitute is one of the best possible ideas when using Machamp, as when a Substitute comes up the opponent is put in a bit of a Catch-22, as they both have to break the Substitute and withstand a mighty blow from that base 130 Attack; blocking any secondary moves and at least one attack is just the icing on the cake.</p>

<p>Substitute is, of course, the main move on this set, giving Machamp some sort of protection against the onslaught it will often face. Dynamicpunch is Machamp's greatest asset, being both easily abusable with No Guard and hitting incredibly hard as well. Machamp also has a chance of getting past a few of its counters if it gets lucky with the confusion that Dynamicpunch causes; that same automatic confusion can be really annoying to everything else it hits as well. A lesser evil, Stone Edge is Machamp's second attack, having its notoriously shoddy accuracy remedied by No Guard. In addition, Stone Edge has great neutral coverage alongside Dynamicpunch, soundly smacking several Pokemon who can take Machamp's Fighting-type STAB moves, like Mismagius and Zapdos. Ice Punch as Machamp's last move rounds out its coverage, hitting many physically defensive Ground-types like Donphan, saving Dynamicpunch's PP. You also have the option of Thunderpunch in that slot as well, seeing as it's your best bet against the numerous bulky Water-types in the tier.</p>

[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

<p>To capitalize on Machamp's base 130 Attack, the maximum amount of EVs in that stat is a mandate; the same reason applies to use an Adamant nature. Enough Speed EVs are there to outpace any neutral natured Pokemon sitting at Base 60 Speed and below, such as Empoleon. The remainder of your EVs should go into HP to round out some of Machamp's overall bulk as well as provide more HP for Substitute. Leftovers is the preferred item for those reasons as well, and it also negates passive damage from sandstorm or hail, and Leftoers recovery heals Machamp when those weather conditions are not present.</p>

<p>Just about the only other option that Machamp can plausibly use is Payback, and it provides a powerful hit on quite a few Psychic- and Ghost- types, primarily Mew and Dusclops. However, more prominent threats, such as Alakazam and Azelf, are hit very hard by Stone Edge anyways. Regarding team support, dedicated walls like Chansey and Dusclops are great options to take many powerful hits which would otherwise either break Machamp's Substitute or take it out. Entry hazards are also especially useful, as Machamp will be forcing many switches. The extra damage caused by entry hazards, especially Toxic Spikes, can be crucial for Machamp to hit some key KOs. Keeping that in mind, teammates who can set down hazards are great partners. The aforementioned Chansey can set up Stealth Rock, while Deoxys-D can both set hazards and tank any overly powerful attacks.</p>

[SET]
name: Choice Band
move 1: Dynamicpunch
move 2: Ice Punch
move 3: Thunderpunch
move 4: Stone Edge
item: Choice Band
nature: Adamant
evs: 208 HP / 252 Atk / 44 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]

<p>Machamp easily has the capability of abusing his base 130 Attack with a Choice Band equipped, as it allows him to hit incredibly hard from the moment it enters the field without the need for boosting. Machamp's sheer power allows it to take out most of UU in two hits with STAB Dynamicpunch alone, and many Pokemon that aren't are taken out by any of its three other moves.</p>

<p>Dynamicpunch is the crux of this set, providing both a solid STAB move and a move that confuses the opponent upon contact, occasionally giving Machamp a bit of a lucky break. Ice Punch hits Ground-types much more reliably than Dynamicpunch, saving its PP; Ice Punch also hits most of the powerful Dragon-types in UU for super effective damage. Thunderpunch, on the other hand, hits the bulky Water-types littering the metagame for super effective damage, allowing Machamp to hit them hard without resorting to its precious Dynamicpunch. In the final moveslot, Stone Edge hits the opponent every time, though it is here for hitting frail Psychic-types like Azelf and Alakazam on the switchin without resorting to Payback.</p>

[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

-max attack obv and max hp to increase bulk since there's really no point to invest in speed
-any choice set that does should be scarf and that's a whole different animal
-bullet punch can work as decent priority but Steel isn't an effective STAB, moreso for machamp
-payback is bad but if you really want that hit on Mew you can do it (considering that azelf + alakazam = dominant psychic types = FRAIL)
-Guts is an option to let you take WoW like a boss, getting effectively a 2x boost
-hazards to capitalize on the switches you cause
-pursuiters to take out ghosts are helpful
-wish support is helpful

CALCS

DynamicPunch vs 252 HP/252 Def Registeel: 79.95% - 94.78% (2HKO with Leftovers)
DynamicPunch vs 252 HP/252 Def Donphan: 44.53% - 52.6% (2HKO after Spikes)
DynamicPunch vs 252 HP/252 Def Suicune: 43.81% - 51.49% (2HKO after Spikes)
-1 Atk DynamicPunch vs 252 HP/252 Def Arcanine: 39.06% - 46.09% (2HKO after Stealth Rock)
-1 Atk DynamicPunch vs 255 HP/255 Def Hitmontop: 44.41% - 52.3% (2HKO after Spikes)
Ice Punch vs 252 HP/252 Def Zapdos: 56.25% - 66.67% (2HKO)
ThunderPunch vs 252 HP/252 +1 Def Milotic: 38.58% - 45.69% (2HKO after Stealth Rock + Spikes)
Stone Edge vs 4 HP/0 Def Azelf: 82.53% - 97.26% (Chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock)

[SET]
name: Choice Scarf
move 1: Dynamicpunch
move 2: Ice Punch
move 3: Thunderpunch
move 4: Stone Edge
item: Choice Scarf
nature: Jolly / Adamant
evs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]

-completely different from all the other sets since you're capitalizing on the surprise factor of the boosted speed
-same move comments as before

[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

-Absolutely needs Ghosts out of the picture when you're running this, so pursuit is heavily advised
-bp is just bad on this set since you're already running the speed you need to outspeed most of your counters
-same deal with payback since it depends on you being slower; neutral stone edge hits harder on all psychic types
-wish support is an option to give machamp a new lease on life
-max attack and speed to hit as hard as possible while outspeeding quite a few usual counters

[SET]
name: Bulk Up
move 1: Bulk Up
move 2: Dynamicpunch
move 3: Ice Punch
move 4: Stone Edge
item: Leftovers
nature: Adamant
evs: 208 HP / 252 Atk / 44 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]

-Machamp's only boosting move is Bulk up, and it can use it pretty effectively
-Bulk Up boosts Machamp's Defense to nice levels, allowing it to tank some fairly powerful physical hits after a boost or two
-Dynamicpunch is your obvious staple
-ice punch hits dragon and grass types, as well as Hippowdon, taking it out in 2 hits after a boost and Stealth Rock + layer of Spikes
-Stone Edge rounds out your coverage, hitting flying types on the switch in hard even when unboosted
-as a plus, after a Bulk Up boost you live a hit from unboosted azelf's psyshock and you have a chance to one shot with Stone Edge after LO, 100% after SR

[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

-max hp / speed for overall bulk and attacking
-adamant for power
-lefties for recovery - its machamp's only form
-you can run Thunderpunch to get rid of water-types easier but the Dynamicpunch usually hits harder
-wish support can be helpful to let machamp boost again if its weakened


[Other Options]

-all out attacker set, but that's pretty meh considering its frail af
-close combat + guts is interesting
-resttalk is better done by machoke, besides its bad anyways
-mentioning SpecsChamp for the lols, QC your call if i can keep it in (obviously going to laugh about it)
-you have access to light screen which can work buts its the very definition of gimmicky

[Checks and Counters]

-faster things are good
-keep in mind that if you're switching in something you have to make sure it won't get too badly injured by confusion from Dynamicpunch
-best strategy is often revenge killing, and there are a lot of Pokemon that outspeed it
-azelf and alakazam are your best bets in that regard, coming in on a revenge kill and one shotting with Psychic
-Chandelure and Mismagius can both come in on both of Machamp's movepool besides Stone Edge and either set up in mismagius case or blow it out of the water (flames?)
-toxic spikes are really bad for any set, especially sub and bulk up since those require staying in for a while

[Dream World]

<p>Steadfast is a neat ability to recieve from the Dream World, but there are far too many things Machamp can't have while using Steadfast that it's not worth it. Besides, No Guard is Machamp's best niche by far.</p>
 
yeah, Snunch and PKGaming just had a powwow and so far everything besides cb and sub is still up in the air, the rest is being tested!
 
Omicron said:
Guts RestTalk might be worth a try, though missing out on DPunch is kinda disappointing.
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Unfortunately, Guts doesn't activate on Sleep anymore in 5th gen. But that doesn't matter to Champ, even his 4th gen Resttalk set used No Guard. It was standard for a while too before all of that anti-lead bullshit. As a bonus, Sleep Talk mitigates his low PP on Dynamic Punch and Stone Edge.
 
Does Payback actually hit anything this generation? Practically everything you would use it against is slower than Machamp, like Slowbro and Dusclops. Deoxys-D wouldn't care about it and just Recover off damage (isn't even a 2HKO on 252/252, only 2HKOs SpD sets or Jolly 252 Deo-D). Ice Punch would hit the Nidos, two common switch-ins to Machamp.
 
Yeah - those Psychic types you handwaved. Max Speed Deo-D is more common than Bold for some reason, and like most faster Psychics, you can still win provided those confusion turns go in your favor. There are a lot of Psychic types in UU, and many of them just won't die to Stone Edge, not even frail ones like Azelf.
 
Forte.EXE said:
Does Payback actually hit anything this generation? Practically everything you would use it against is slower than Machamp, like Slowbro and Dusclops. Deoxys-D wouldn't care about it and just Recover off damage (isn't even a 2HKO on 252/252, only 2HKOs SpD sets or Jolly 252 Deo-D). Ice Punch would hit the Nidos, two common switch-ins to Machamp.
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I had to check on Payback, and I hate to admit it, but you have a point. Defensive Psychics and Ghosts laugh at Machamp's Payback, especially when they can recover. Hell, even Cresselia laughs at Machamp.

So, what about the more OFFENSIVE Psychics and Ghosts? Often times, these guys are pretty frail and have trouble healing. Maybe they'll be falling to Machamp. Well, let's see... (I'm only doing the ones that aren't already weak to Stone Edge, like Froslass and Chandelure)

Machamp vs. Azelf: Machamp's Payback WOULD take out Nasty Plot Azelf in one shot if it did anything besides Nasty Plot or its Psychic-type move. If Azelf does use Nasty Plot, though, then he has set up, and Psychic or Psyshock one-shots Machamp even if he doesn't boost. Advantage: Azelf.
Machamp vs. Golurk: If it's the Choice Band set, then Machamp can 2HKO with Payback, and Golurk can 2HKO with either Earthquake or Shadow Punch. But Golurk is faster than Machamp, so... Advantage: Golurk.
Machamp vs. Mew: Mew is 2HKO'd by Payback if it strikes the first time Machamp uses it. Meanwhile, Psychic is a one-shot KO. If unboosted, there is a chance for Psyshock to leave Machamp alive, but it doesn't matter. And there's also the matter of the Stallbreaker set with Will-O-Wisp. Will-O-Wisp = useless Machamp. Advantage: Mew.
Machamp vs. Alakazam: Payback will beat Alakazam in one hit. However, Alakazam can avoid this by either using Substitute to block the hit or by just killing Machamp instantly with Psychic. Adavantage: Alakazam.
Machamp vs. Mismagius: Oddly, Mismagius's Shadow Ball will NOT beat Machamp in a single blow if unboosted by Nasty Plot. In fact, unboosted Shadow Ball doesn't even 2HKO if Mismagius is not holding a Life Orb instead of Leftovers. Meanwhile, if Mismagius tries to strike, and if Machamp survives (which it can), then Payback is taking Mismagius out in one hit. Advantage: MACHAMP?

So, yeah. Payback sounds pretty good, but the monsters that it would actually hurt can also hurt Machamp badly before the wrestler's blows can connect. That's not a good sign. (Though it's still a better idea than giving a Pokemon that Psychics and Ghosts laugh at Pursuit. Hitmontop, I'm looking at you.)
 
SJCrew said:
Unfortunately, Guts doesn't activate on Sleep anymore in 5th gen.
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I've heard this a few times, but I'm pretty sure it's false. Someone just misinterpreted the Bulbapedia article (which says it changed to boost during sleep in DPP but doesn't say whether anything changed in BW) and started spreading the rumor around. I could be wrong, but I haven't seen any evidence that it actually changed.
 
I feel I probably ought to bring up Machoke, for which I wrote the analysis. Since RestTalk (No Guard) was QC approved on Machoke, I presume the set would also work on Machamp. Since Machoke's analysis is probably to be replaced, this should probably be included.
 
SJCrew said:
Yeah - those Psychic types you handwaved. Max Speed Deo-D is more common than Bold for some reason, and like most faster Psychics, you can still win provided those confusion turns go in your favor. There are a lot of Psychic types in UU, and many of them just won't die to Stone Edge, not even frail ones like Azelf.
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But all the offensive Psychics wouldn't bother with shit like Substitute or trying to set up on Machamp (unless you're trying to outpredict or something). Azelf can OHKO with Psychic, same thing with Alakazam (which could be Magic Guard Sash), Mew is probably the Taunt+WoW set, so you're screwed.

Relying on a 50% shot for Confusion to kick in and save Machamp's ass isn't that great.
 
Alright so I tested scarf Machamp and I'm glad I did because it's legit. It requires a lot of team support, but if you can pursuit ghosts and switch into fliers, spamming scarf dynamic punch is pretty good. PK Gaming tested the bulk up set and he also finds it worthy of a set, so add those two.

The moves on the sub set should look like this:
move 1: Substitute
move 2: Dynamicpunch
move 3: Stone Edge
move 4: Ice Punch / Thunderpunch

With Payback in AC because it's bad.
 
yeah i think we said that in IRC but i never implemented it, my bad >_>

I'll add those two sets to the checklist
 
Just about everywhere that ice punch is mentioned, I'd replace it with Payback. Ice Punch hits just about nothing you aren't already hitting (golurk pretty much), while even a nerfed payback improves your coverage a shitton (and still hits golurk hard enough).
 
JabbaTheGriffin said:
Just about everywhere that ice punch is mentioned, I'd replace it with Payback. Ice Punch hits just about nothing you aren't already hitting (golurk pretty much), while even a nerfed payback improves your coverage a shitton (and still hits golurk hard enough).
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QC REJECTED

Ice Punch hits ground types who resist fighting harder than Payback, most notably the Nidos, but also including Gligar, Golurk, and Claydol. It is much more useful than Payback, which should really never be used for anything other than Mew without WoW.

Just add 44 Speed EVs to the Bulk Up and CB sets (for the same reason as the sub set) and you're golden.

QC APPROVED 1/3
 
I don't agree with Payback getting the axe entirely. You are forgetting that this is UU, which has nothing but Psychic types, and some of them take next to no damage from Stone Edge. Cresselia, Uxie, Mesprit, Deoxys, and Mew hopelessly wall this Machamp. Even with Azelf, you're barely dealing over half, and Alakazam actually has a pretty decent chance to survive it (89.2% - 105.2%).

That and Stone Edge and Ice Punch overlap in coverage pretty hard and can compete for the same slot. If anything, ThunderPunch needs to be sent to AC because SubChamp is cramped for slots already and has no use for it other than hitting Slowbro, which you'll most likely lose to anyway unless he hits himself three times in a row. Nidoqueen doesn't even wall it per se, it has no way of dealing significant damage to Champ and can be stalled out between DynamicPunch and Payback while its Earthquake hits like Dugtrio in return (28.4% - 33.9%).

Instead of restricting yourself to a terrible coverage move that doesn't beat your counters, mention Toxic Spikes support in AC. With Sub, DynamicPunch, and Stone Edge/Payback, you'll surely stall out any Slowbro you happen to come across.
 
Snunch said:
QC REJECTED

Ice Punch hits ground types who resist fighting harder than Payback, most notably the Nidos, but also including Gligar, Golurk, and Claydol. It is much more useful than Payback, which should really never be used for anything other than Mew without WoW.

Just add 44 Speed EVs to the Bulk Up and CB sets (for the same reason as the sub set) and you're golden.

QC APPROVED 1/3
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What SJCrew said, and you listed 2 mons that also get hit by payback

Nidoqueen is one reason to use Ice Punch (Nidoking almost definitely is not)
Gligar is ridiculously uncommon

I don't see why you'd run some redundant coverage for a couple mons rather than give yourself great coverage with Payback. I'd say Subchamp at the very least should have payback as the first option. Other sets I can see the shittiness from lack of power on the switch, but when you're behind the sub, payback is definitely the option you want
 
SJCrew said:
I don't agree with Payback getting the axe entirely. You are forgetting that this is UU, which has nothing but Psychic types, and some of them take next to no damage from Stone Edge. Cresselia, Uxie, Mesprit, Deoxys, and Mew hopelessly wall this Machamp. Even with Azelf, you're barely dealing over half, and Alakazam actually has a pretty decent chance to survive it (89.2% - 105.2%).
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Cresselia, Uxie, and Mesprit are irrelevant in UU. Psychic type take the same amount of damage coming into a payback as they do coming into a Stone Edge. Every relevant psychic type that you listed forces Machamp out anyway, with the exception of Deoxys-D who just sets up hazards and switches out to one of the 9999 machamp checks who can come in on an unstabbed base 50 attack. Machamp can barely even 2hko 252/0 Deoxys-D; defensive variants will just set up hazards and pressure stall your PP. Mew forces Machamp out with WoW, and offensive versions 2hko Machamp with Psychic and aren't OHKOed by payback. Even if Mew switches in on a sub, WoW versions still beat it. That leaves us with Azelf, who you beat if you're able to outpredict your opponent and get a sub up. I can't imagine anyone would actually switch Alakazam into Machamp.

That and Stone Edge and Ice Punch overlap in coverage pretty hard and can compete for the same slot. If anything, ThunderPunch needs to be sent to AC because SubChamp is cramped for slots already and has no use for it other than hitting Slowbro, which you'll most likely lose to anyway unless he hits himself three times in a row. Nidoqueen doesn't even wall it per se, it has no way of dealing significant damage to Champ and can be stalled out between DynamicPunch and Payback while its Earthquake hits like Dugtrio in return (28.4% - 33.9%).
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Thunderpunch is actually very useful because Dynamic punch has such shitty PP. One of Machamp's key advantages over other fighting types is the ability to confuse hax its way past walls. In UU, bulky waters can take quite a few hits from Dynamic punch before going down. Suicune eats up your Dynamic punch PP obviously, but then you also have to consider that beating Milotic, Blastoise, etc., even if you get lucky, eats up much more of your PP than you would like. If, at one point during the match, your opponent switches in a pressure mon on your dynamic punch, it is very hard to hax your way through walls without becoming completely irrelevant afterwards. ThunderPunch alleviates this issue by allowing you to hit bulky waters for the same damage that dynamic punch would hit, while also conserving those precious 8 dynamic punches. Oh, and it also gives you somewhat of a chance against Slowbro and Qwilfish. As for Nidoqueen, it simply sets up hazards and roars you out.

However I'll agree that it is definitely an inferior option to Ice Punch.

Instead of restricting yourself to a terrible coverage move that doesn't beat your counters, mention Toxic Spikes support in AC. With Sub, DynamicPunch, and Stone Edge/Payback, you'll surely stall out any Slowbro you happen to come across.
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Yep, tspikes should definitely go in AC. Thanks for catching that.

JabbaTheGriffin said:
What SJCrew said, and you listed 2 mons that also get hit by payback

Nidoqueen is one reason to use Ice Punch (Nidoking almost definitely is not)
Gligar is ridiculously uncommon

I don't see why you'd run some redundant coverage for a couple mons rather than give yourself great coverage with Payback. I'd say Subchamp at the very least should have payback as the first option. Other sets I can see the shittiness from lack of power on the switch, but when you're behind the sub, payback is definitely the option you want
Click to expand...

Why is Nidoking not a reason to run ice punch? You do 73% - 87% with it, which comes very close to an OHKO. Gligar should be ridiculously uncommon, but sadly it isn't.

What you both need to remember is that Machamp isn't and shouldn't get a sub up in many situations. There are very few pokemon who Machamp can come in relatively unscathed against and force out. Among the top 40 most used pokemon in UU that list comes out to: Mismagius without Will-O-Wisp, defensive Froslass (i.e. Froslass outside of hail), Registeel, Chansey, Umbreon, and POSSIBLY Empoleon. With sand everywhere negating it's lefties recovery, a Machamp that spams substitute will find itself worn down very easily. If you aren't using Machamp for survivability reasons, you are using the wrong fighting type.

The idea of "I come in, they switch to their psychic, I sub, I kill them with payback" is appealing in theory, but in practice it doesn't work that way. Many people would rather switch in something like Suicune or Hippowdon into Machamp than Azelf, and, as a good player, you know that subbing there would waste 25% of your health. So you don't sub, and instead attack on the switch.

What follows is that in every game in which you don't sub, either because your opponent has a suicune or because you are trying to revenge kill a pokemon that can attack and put you too low on health to sub, payback is literally useless. It is a deadweight slot. There is nothing you would rather attack on the switch with Payback that Stone Edge would not work for. This is why Payback is a bad move on subchamp. Getting a sub up is not guaranteed, your opponent has many better options to check Machamp than a frail psychic type, and, should your opponent let you get a sub up, it's probably because they have a very good counter to Machamp that you can't kill with Payback. Every time you sub and your opponent brings in Mew, or Nidoqueen, or Gligar, or Qwilfish, you have needlessly wasted health on a pokemon who relies on bulk to differentiate itself from Heracross.

Basically, Payback will work if your opponent is unprepared for Machamp and tries to check it with stuff like Azelf and Mismagius. Payback is a useless move against a prepared opponent.
 
Payback is a useless move against an opponent prepared for payback. Similarly, Ice Punch is a useless move against an opponent prepared for ice punch. The analysis should show the standard, not some sort of anti-metagame set, as the analysis is largely what defines the metagame. If you think Machamp won't get a sub up, don't use sub machamp. Circumventing the nerf to Payback is one of the strongest arguments for using it.

edit: also totally agree about resttalk deserving a set. Sorts out the pp issue too.
 
The Resttalk variant is good enough to have its own set IMO. Chansey is extremely common, and if you're switching Machamp on it, there's a possibility of switching on a toxic/thunder wave. Resttalk solves that problem and turns machamp into a good tank/status absorber.
 
I'm thinking the bulk up set needs sub slashed in with ice punch. Ice punch's coverage is pretty unmemorable when you have stone edge, and sub saves your ass against dusclops and spiritomb while also letting you scout for switchins like alakazam without wasting a bulk up. Might also want to mention an alternative specially-defensive spread - I use 252 HP / 80 Atk / 160 SpD / 16 Spe.
 
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