SM OU Make Talon Great Again, #1, 1754 on suspect ladder

[AdvanceShip]

Hey guys, this is my 2nd RMT. I made the basic construct of this team at the very beginning of sumo, which is why its very reminiscent of oras with a fini on it. In disbelieve the gale wings nerf truely made Talon unusable and being subject to constant mockery therefore, i developed an unhealthy obsession to prove anyone wrong and making it work somehow. Eventually i used this team to get reqs during the dugtrio suspect test, shortly after peaking #1 at suspects end. With that being said, i hope you enjoy the rmt and give it a shot.

Teambuilding Process​

Talonflame's skystrike set is what i wanted to build around, contrary to popular believe i figured a more BO/Balance approach seemed more fitting than some sort of HO, simply because the playstyle allows talon to be supported more consistent while profiting from talons tremendous revenge killing potential. Naturally hazard removal then became top priority, which is where Tapu Fini comes into play. On the other side Talon is able to punish grass and steel types that tend to setup on fini such as ferro, bulu, tang magearna and kartana.

Mega Venusaur complets the generic fwg core. With fini and Talon both weak to electrics such as koko and zone and fini not always able to check what it needs to due to the need of defogging it serves as some sort of backup greninja/phero check and sturdy water resist, henswise Talon can revenge threats such as dd lando, mence, volcarona or sd chomp that might setup on venusaur.

Next i needed a rocker and sturdy psychic resist, seeing as lele just runs tru the three, specially defensive Jirachi felt like a perfect fit for this team, especially since Talon really appreciates slow u turn or hw support to get its gale wings back, both of which rachi provides

Having rachi on the team the need for a ground resist became apparent, with the team being rather slow, good old scarflando felt like the only choice at this point. Although counters for stuff like koko/magearna exist on this team, an electric immunity was needed to stop those from volting around for free, while in conjungtion with rachi it complets the turn turn core, generating momentum myself and making for a basic metagross answear

With parts of the team being rather passive or at least lacking in breaking power i needed something to adress that problem. Hoopa fills this role great, it also pressures and sort of switches into mons the team struggles with, such as: Heatran, zapdos, toxapex, celesteela, alakazam and defensive lando, while also weakening ttar for Talon late game. While eventually being trapped by duggy it can render at least one mon one stall useless, opening up opportunities for its teammates.

The Sets

Talonflame @ Flyinium Z
Ability: Gale Wings
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Brave Bird
- Flame Charge
- Flare Blitz​

Set description and usage tips
We all know the gale wings nerf hit Talon really hard, but this one set actually plays perfectly to Talon's strenghts since a z-move Brave Bird at full health not only has prioritity and with BP 190 is stronger than the banded equivalent but also doesnt inflict recoil or helmet/barbs damage thus keeping gale wings intact. Swords dance is just a great setup move that, in conjunction with skystrike, actually packs a huge hit, allowing Talon to muscle trough bulky waters (decent talon answears in oras) like fini, toxapex (with some chip/rocks dmg) or even lando and heatran to some extend, while ohkoing frailer flying resists like koko at +2.
Flame charge seems like a gimmicky move but works exceptionally well on this set. Especially late game it can pick of weakend mons then proceding to swep scarfers or naturally faster mons (bar scarf phero, which needs Talon weakend to revenge anyway) with the appropriate stab of BB/Flare Blitz, flame charge also works great with sd since the latter significantly boosts the formers KO-potential, often resulting in some snowball like sweeping scenarios. Since flame charge does not inflict recoil its also great in delaying the point at which Talon dies to recoil or puts himself in range of opposing priority/scarf phero.
Talonflame is supposed to be a suicide bomber with this set, so honestly there is no space for roost (which doesnt really work with the gale wings nerf and Talon's subpar bulk without hp investment), so try to eigther punch holes in the opposing defenses early game (potentially healing wishing it later) or keep it healthy till late game, focus on winning the hazard war and await the right moment to (sky)strike.
Some games Talon wont get to sweep but still can be a tremendous asset to the team by revenge killing scary setup-sweepes like dd lando, skystrike gyara, mence (only little chip needed for save OHKO), pinsir, volcarona and pheromosa. The revenge killing aspect and possesion of usable flying stab after having used the z-move is what really sets Talon apart from common skystrike user.
The preferred nature on this set is adamant, the power boost is significant and max speed is just enough to outrun base 110's, most notable mega metagross. Jolly wouldnt give Talon further outspeeds at +1 and would only come in handy against greninja.

Hide

+2 252+ Atk Gale Wings Talonflame Supersonic Skystrike (190 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tapu Koko: 284-334 (101 - 118.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Gale Wings Talonflame Supersonic Skystrike (190 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Landorus-Therian:
(84.9 - 100%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Gale Wings Talonflame Supersonic Skystrike (190 BP) vs. 248 HP / 196+ Def Tapu Fini: 339-399 (98.8 - 116.3%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO (never saw not ohkoing tbh)
+2 252+ Atk Gale Wings Talonflame Supersonic Skystrike (190 BP) vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Toxapex: 268-316 (88.1 - 103.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock (knock off venu comin into play)

On a final note: Talonflame profits from metagame trends its own demise caused, nowadys flying resists are mostly steel types being weak to fire stab (bar heatran, which cant ohko and gets ohkod by +4 ss), while rotom (mostly spD) and ttar have decreased in usage, the bulkiest non flying resisting mons in the tier dont even bother running edge anymore (defensive lando) or just get ohkod by +2 skystrike or a little chip (fini/toxa). To add to the list Talon pray is more common than ever (tang, ferro, phero, volc) and sumo introduced even more (kartana, bulu, phero)

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Tapu Fini @ Leftovers
Ability: Misty Surge
EVs: 248 HP / 196 Def / 64 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Moonblast
- Defog
- Nature's Madness
- Taunt​

Set description and usage tips​

No need to really explain much, its just your standard physical defensive fini creeping the jolly base 50 speedtier by 3 points (a benchmark that shouldnt really exist to begin with). In a non stall matchup the only thing it should do is checking phero and ash ninja (in which being healthy for the ladder is more important) and defogging. Bar Ferrothorn it does well against most rock setter (which Talon takes advantage of). Tapu fini might be one of the most prepared for mon in sumo, so always be aware and dont let yourself get lured. The team is rather dependend on the defog and might fall apart with rocks (+spikes) up. Moonblast is the preferred attacking move since hitting phero, mence, dnite, sabeley and chomp far outweights the extra damage on lando and heatran provided by scald/surf while naturess madness (kinda) already hits steels for "neutral" damage. Tapu fini is the key player in dealing with stall (tho honestly no member is deadweight against the playstyle), tradeing leftovers for 50% on sabeley lets jirachi setup rocks more easily, misty terrain gives hoopa save switches into toxa, at which point eigther skarm or clef are most likely to be saced before dugtrio is able to trap, the former gone opens up for rachi+lando, while the ladder gone actually makes Talonflame a threat to stall.

Venusaur @ Venusaurite
Ability: Chlorophyll
EVs: 248 HP / 104 Def / 136 SpD / 20 Spe
Calm Nature
- Hidden Power [Fire]
- Sludge Bomb
- Synthesis
- Knock Off/Giga Drain​

Set description and usage tips​

I decided to run mega venusaur to handicap myself and have more of a challenge. Jokes aside Mega Venusaur is probably the weakest link on the team, dont get me wrong its defensive typing is still amazing, you often find yourself in situations where venusaur potentially walls and hits entire teams for super effective damage once a key member is gone. Most notable it is able to check/counter 3/4 tapus, electrics and waters for Talon while also serving as a backup check for phero/greninja. On the other side it has the same problems as always those being its suspectability to hax (crits, flash cannon drops, flinches etc.), hazards and resisduals in general. Venusaur is also known for giving most hazard setters and metagross (for which i am lacking good answears) easy switch ins, so avoid bringing in venu as long as those are still threatening. This Venusaur is very specially defensive, most notable to always take 2 dark pulses from specs ninja after rocks (non ash form and venusaur hasnt megad too yet) and even stalling out zard y's sun turns.

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252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja Dark Pulse vs. 248 HP / 136+ SpD Venusaur: 133-157 (36.6 - 43.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja-Ash Dark Pulse vs. 248 HP / 136+ SpD Venusaur-Mega: 153-181 (42.1 - 49.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

The first tree moves are fix, sludge bomb being your mandatory strongest stab hitting all tapus, synthesis for sustain and hp fire to not completly get walled by the steels in the tier and secondary check for the likes of scizor and kartana. for the last slot i am quite undecided between knock and giga drain, knock off helps a lot against stall matchups and most notable marowak and gengar, while giga drain is just solid stab, without which you actually get walled by ground types, have an even worse sand matchup and are over-reliant on synthesis for sustain. Now that mawilite is about to be released a more offensive venusaur to 2hko with hp fire might also make sense.

Jirachi @ Leftovers
Ability: Serene Grace
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 248 HP / 228 SpD / 32 Spe
Careful Nature
- Iron Head
- U-turn
- Healing Wish
- Stealth Rock​

Set description and usage tips​

Jirachi serves as the mandatory steel type on the team, this specially defensive set with enough speed for jolly bandtar (another speed benchmark that shouldnt really exist) is one of the best tapu lele counter in the game (not getting 2hkod by specs hp fire), while it cant really touch large portions of the metagme, it takes a hit from every mon on the special spectrum, making it a very reliable rock setter with good matchup against common defogger (bar zapdos and skarm lol). With a little flinch"hax" you are pretty much guaranteed to get up rocks against stall. Against more offensive builds u turning for momentum generation is almost always the preferred option over setting up rocks, since you have to defog them most of the time anyway. While in no way a metagross counter, resisting its stab and ice punch lets you pivot between scarflando and rachi to somewhat deal with. Healing Wish is mostly used to bring back near dead overwhelmed fini or giving Talon a second chance at gale wings sweeping. Ooh yeah and always make rachi shiny, it might make a distracted opponent think you are z happy our lol.

Landorus-Therian @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- U-turn
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge
- Hidden Power [Ice] ​

Set description and usage tips​

I have a distaste for good sets, so i puted scarflando. I honestly dont really know what to say that isnt well known or was already said about scarflando and its use on the team. The set is also pretty selfexplanatory, with hp ice and u turn lando it is the best lead most of the time (lead fini against obvious scarf pheromosa if you dont feel like pulling a pdc turn 1) since getting off that damage on opposing lando turn1 really makes playing around hazards much more easy. I know scarfer with below 100 base speed arent really popular rn, but realisticly Talon covers what lando cant revenge and i honestly hate using theoreticaly good scarfer that dont anything early-mid game like nihilego and chomp to a point where you always have to double switch.

Hoopa-Unbound @ Choice Band
Ability: Magician
EVs: 164 Atk / 148 Def / 196 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Hyperspace Fury
- Ice Punch
- Gunk Shot
- Zen Headbutt

Set description and usage tips​

Yeah, i know using sets/mons fallen from grace or under the radar seems like a reoccuring theme of the team, and hoopa is no exception, tho i honestly dont understand why. As mentioned prior, it perfectly adresses the problem of not having a particular wallbreaker while also serving defensive purposes. Its defensive purposes are enhenced by investing 148 evs into its defenses, that way hoopa always takes a u turn from specs greninja, an eq from duggy at -1 defense and most notably a meteor mash from metagross. Naturally a lot of speed had to be dropped for that, with this spread hoopa hits 245 speed, creeping jolly ttar/timid celesteela for two points.
Regarding the set: Hyperspace Fury is just a brainless, relatively easy to spam move and zen headbutt is the semi mandatory stab to hit toxapex really hard, apart from those, ice punch and gunk shot were mostly used to hit fairies (especially fini) and ohkoing defensive lando. Feel free to tailor the set according to your needs, drain punch is obviously still great to prevent ttar from trapping you (tho its not as common lately), while with mawilite about to be released even fire punch could work well (having a chance to ohko depending on its hp investment) is a great an option to and even fireis Your opponent most likely wont expect expect you to klick anything but hyperspace, so try to be agressive when predicting your opponents dark resist.

Hide

252 Atk Tough Claws Metagross-Mega Meteor Mash vs. 0 HP / 148 Def Hoopa-Unbound: 255-300 (84.7 - 99.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
option:
252+ Atk Choice Band Hoopa-Unbound Fire Punch vs. 88 HP / 0 Def Mawile-Mega: 260-306 (98.8 - 116.3%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO

Threatlist

WIP, will be added soon
Import ​

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Talonflame @ Flyinium Z
Ability: Gale Wings
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Brave Bird
- Flame Charge
- Flare Blitz

Landorus-Therian @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- U-turn
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge
- Hidden Power [Ice]

Tapu Fini @ Leftovers
Ability: Misty Surge
EVs: 248 HP / 196 Def / 64 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Moonblast
- Defog
- Nature's Madness
- Taunt

Venusaur @ Venusaurite
Ability: Chlorophyll
EVs: 248 HP / 104 Def / 136 SpD / 20 Spe
Calm Nature
- Knock Off
- Hidden Power [Fire]
- Sludge Bomb
- Synthesis

Jirachi @ Leftovers
Ability: Serene Grace
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 248 HP / 228 SpD / 32 Spe
Careful Nature
- Iron Head
- U-turn
- Healing Wish
- Stealth Rock

Hoopa-Unbound @ Choice Band
Ability: Magician
EVs: 164 Atk / 148 Def / 196 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Hyperspace Fury
- Ice Punch
- Gunk Shot
- Zen Headbutt

Replays​

Hide

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pokebankou-483582272 proof i was probably the first to use that set (26.11)
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pokebankoususpecttest-510604494 Talon both working as revenge killer and sweeper
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7oususpecttest-531641132 Talon punching holes in the opponents defenses, opening up scarflando
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pokebankou-521321890 vs stall
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7oususpecttest-538156125 prime example of a sd+flame charge sweep
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7oususpecttest-538127250 agains most common smeargle web offense
more will be added soon

Shoutouts ​

special shoutouts to my eck calling buddies for enduring my consant Talon dickriding, love y'all <3 (no homo)
Liones for constantly abusing my need to prove talons viability to make me ladder and thinking weavile is a good mon (always makes me laugh).
Wings of Night for trolling the ou room with how talon is the best skystrike user (lando = noob) and conciding that while talon is shit, its at least not as bad as weavile, pinsir, zard x and weavile.
Mazar for not bringing it against lcans when it would have just won and being the only person to ever succesfully ice beam a lando with phero turn1, gl with your ubers game bro :]
Freestylerking for always getting me locked thus standing in the way of my efforts of convincing the ou room of talons viability, hope you can forgive me for using two non stab u-turner.
menci for thinking talon is utter shit while constantly losing to it, eventually inventing cresselia BO as a countermeasure (true story).
Leru for moral support, excellent ghostings during suspect (thats ash greninja, trust) and helping me editing since i am completly incapable in that regard.

Dokkerich for featuring the set in a 10 minute obs test live (stole the set wrong, but it actually might work better in uu this way), lets record more spl in the future :]
Eko just for being a cool dude, calling and teambuilding buddy. Hope you do well in PSL bro :]
Takato for losing against mono electric with stall, guess you should have wrapped them in "alo" serving as a faraday cage (nothing to do with the rmt, just had to let anyone know)
njnp for claiming he tried building around talon and considerd it to be ass (two things that just doesnt add up)
CK James for having my back during ou roomtours ("talon is still good") and almost 1v1ning a volcarona with spD talon
Vertex made a great analysis on the skystrike set, but please just delete the "/overheat" part, dont get how flame charge isnt the superior choice in almost all cases.
showdown ladder: for sacing mons than deciding to keep them, saying "wtf/lol talonflame" then losing to it and in general creating a very memorable, rage and lock inducing experience.

 

[Jojobobo]

Hey, I really like the team. Taking a threat that isn't used a lot anymore, but works well precisely because the meta is unprepared for it, seems like a really cool idea. Kudos.

What I think you could consider is running a secondary Defogger to take the heat off Fini. One that works and can run good offence to possibly replace Hoopa is Kartana - who also has potential to snowball and clean in a way that Hoopa lacks. A standard Smart Strike/Leaf Blade/Sacred Sword/Defog set should be good, but theres a lot of scope for different items. Band allows you to hit like a truck and makes it difficult to switch into just like the Hoopa set (but at a much better speed tier), Scarf gives you a great speed tier, and E-Belt/Muscle Band/a STAB-boosting Plate can be used to fake a Scarf reasonably making a Defog a little easier or just better enabling to catch people off-guard with coverage. In terms of defensive synergy, though he has weak SpDef, another water/rock/electric resist really doesn't go amiss and it's own weaknesses are already reasonably well covered, plus the physical defence is way better than Hoopa's.

If you did take up Kartana, then you could maybe consider changing Stone Edge for Stealth Rock on Lando. With two Defoggers, two Rockers, and Venusaur to absorb Toxic spikes you can easily dominate the hazards game, plus the fact two Rockers puts a lot more pressure on stall who will likely assume you only have one.

 

[Pais]

Hey nice team but anyway I think that you have some problem to defeat stuff like Pheromosa, Mega Metagross, and Volcarona. If i were you i would use something like Defensive Volcarona over Talonflame that allows you to have a bulkier win condition and also a great staying power. Band Tyranitar over Band Hoopa that help you a lot to defeat Volcarona, it can traps with Pursuit and it is strong as wallbreaker as Hoopa Unbound.

Volcarona @ Leftovers
Ability: Flame Body
EVs: 248 HP / 192 Def / 68 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Fiery Dance
- Roost
- Quiver Dance
- Giga Drain

Tyranitar @ Choice Band
Ability: Sand Stream
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Stone Edge
- Crunch
- Pursuit
- Superpower/Ice Punch (Ice punch could be a great option if you want to baitkill stuff like Lando T, Garchomp, Zygarde)

 

[AdvanceShip]

Thx for the feedback guys
Sunding yeah i know metagross is a huge threat, especiall with eq and against a good player, nothing that cant be revenged tho but still its true that i am lacking a solid switch in for. Replacing Talon isnt really an option (i know volc is considered superior this gen, especially your physicaly oriened set would help out a ton against metgross, but its like the heart of the team), generally i can deal somewhat with volcarona, tho obviously its defog dependend and if i dont get (or talon is a little chiped) it i have to pray it wastes its z move, not having bug buzz and for hoopa to somehow take a fb at +1 after rocks. I was actually using a version with bandtar (spd band) during suspect, but its even easier duggy trapped than hoopa and doesnt work well with sand and gale wings. Should i be able to someday let go of talon, i would definitly try those two out together
Jojobobo i like the idea of dual defog and i think kartana is actually really underrated in its ability to provide it, while a banded set has similar power to hoopa, its dual stab (+secret/night slash) isnt nearly as spamable against stall as hyperspace and walled by skarm, a scarf + defensive lando approach would probably work and would make for a solid metagross answear but leaves me helpless against stall (tho that playstyle might die in the first days of mawile). What i could see working would be a sd variant (tho that couldnt run defog). Interchanging mons in general isnt as simple since every mon serves a very particular role, one had to make a whole different team (which i am going to do, especially since some of the sets are a little outdated)

Something i've been experimenting with lately is an offensive fini with hydro, moon, defog, taunt/madness with near max speed for ada lando/timid tran, the purpose of that set is to outright remove, kill or heavily pressure rock setters (as they probably wont expect it) as opposed to "outwall" them