Make Toxicroak Useful!

[Jambourine]

I have heavily revised this team. Please skip down to the updates.

No, I'm not asking gamefreak to rebalance the game or anything. I'm sharing my intent in making this team, and I am imploring you all to help me. Long story short I'm a "competitive gamer" by interest like I'm sure all of you are and I've recently gotten into PO and showdown. I've had a few teams that actually did really well, gotten to like 1450 points on the ladder in PO (thought not with this team), and I've kinda lurked on youtube wifi narrations for a year or so, so I'm not completely new to the scene.

Toxicroak is one of my favorite pokemon and seeing him still lumped with the OU crowd I've done my best to try and figure out how to really make him shine, not to mention build a strong team in general. Every set and every pokemon save croak I will gladly replace so don't be afraid to suggest something completely different. I've played with this team about a hundred matches and I've had a decent success rate. This is about the eighth version of it. So, without further ado...

(F) @ Leftovers Trait: Drizzle
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SDef
Bold Nature (+Def, -Atk)
- Scald
- Toxic
- Perish Song
- Protect
Completely self explanatory. Standard toed, built with survivability in mind, rain is croak's best friend. No ice beam though, considering that. I don't like hypnosis, even considering I don't have something to put people to sleep. He already has double status anyway.

(F) @ Leftovers Trait: Dry Skin
EVs: 244 HP / 248 Atk / 16 Spd
Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Substitute
- Focus Punch
- Ice Punch
- Sucker Punch
I tried every toxicroak set on smogon and several of my own, including a work-up set with vacuum wave and sucker punch. I feel like this best captures the niche toxicroak has. Substitute, leftovers, and dry skin work wonderfully together, especially with croak's useful slew of resistances and low speed. Sucker punch remedies said speed and also works wonderfully with sub, the threat of sucker punch allowing you to get a sub up as they switch out. It also lets you underspeed, get up a sub, then outspeed with sucker punch as they're forced to attack so you retain sub for their next mon. Focus punch hits like a train, ice punch is a more reliable way of hitting the things that resist or are immune to fighting. This set hates physical walls that can phase though, especially since in the rain skarm has no fire weakness.

(F) @ Expert Belt Trait: Levitate
EVs: 252 SAtk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
Modest Nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
- Draco Meteor
- Dark Pulse
- Earth Power
- Surf
Hydreigon has excellent defensive synergy with toxicroak I noticed, being immune to ground and psychic while croak covers its fighting and bug weaknesses. I do dislike its poor speed however, and lati@s provide much of the same synergy while also being faster. It's especially wasteful since I'm not using hydreigon's main niche, his fire type attacks, because I'm in the rain. This set is my own and I think earth power is an excellent addition to hydreigon's arsenal, which is my primary way of powering through steel types as I lack flamethrower and focus blast. Surf is to abuse the rain and water has nearly unresisted coverage with dragon moves anyway. Now that I think about it earth power is mostly useful for jirachi and heatran and I already murder heatran with surf. I have a rain team so heatran isn't really a threat anyway. I still like earth power though, I'd like to keep that. I wouldn't mind using a scarf or an entirely different set or even one of the lati@s considering I think they tend to be better overall.

@ Life Orb Trait: Download
EVs: 252 SAtk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
Modest Nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
- Rock Polish
- Thunder
- Ice Beam
- Hidden Power [Ground]
Hidden power ground is kinda redundant with earth power too, now that I look at it. This guy is the closest thing I have to a sweeper and actually the only booster I have. Thunder and ice beam have nearly unresisted coverage, and hidden power ground will murder the magnezones and lanturns that slip through, and also stomps all over specially defensive heatran who is normally a good switch in, and the electric types who resist the stronger of my two moves. I have no STAB, which is a bit of a problem.

Once ground types or removed or really whenever he gets the chance this guy can grab a boost and start tearing it up, and until then he can fake a choice set I guess (though he lacks u-turn). This guy functions pretty well early or late game but he works pretty independently of Toxicroak so that's not good.

@ Leftovers Trait: Serene Grace
EVs: 252 HP / 220 SDef / 36 Spd
Careful Nature (+SDef, -SAtk)
- Stealth Rock
- Wish
- Iron Head
- Thunder Wave
I do not like this pokemon. I just think it's one of the only things that can actually wall Tornadus-T which I consider one of the biggest threats to rain. Stealth rocks are useful but I almost never find a time to wish pass, and my other pokemon aren't terribly bulky so they have a rough time taking the incoming wish anyway. Thunder wave looking back I'd definitely swap for body slam, since I'm already very weak to ground types. Paralysis is useful but body slam is somewhat unreliable (as much so as hypnosis anyway) and iron head is just weak as hell with no investment, plus I don't like it anyway. I would swap this out in a heartbeat, perhaps for another steel type as I like the resistances he brings if nothing else.

(M) @ Choice Scarf Trait: Volt Absorb
EVs: 252 SAtk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
- Volt Switch
- Thunder
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Focus Blast
Standard scarf set. Nice and fast, outspeed +1 mence and kill it and all that. More thunder. This guy is pretty good I guess and I want at least one scarfed pokemon on my team. More electric+ice though, another redundancy. I'd rather drop genesect than this guy though, this guy is strong as hell and actually has stab thunders, not to mention he's a hair faster. Focus miss is the worst move in the game though, fortunately I rarely have to use it.


Team problems:
Reliance on thunder/electric attacks in general. I've noticed every single battle seems to be me looking for electric immunities and resistances so I can figure out when I can start spamming thunder. This also suggests team redundancy. I don't even have a great answer to most ground pokemon, just toed, hydreigon, and ice beam on the roach.
No stallbreaker. I feel like that would benefit this team a lot since I don't have a boosting sweeper (genesect only boosts speed) and sometimes defensive cores get the better of me. Something that can really work taunt would be great, or of course just something that can DD/SD/CM/NP/quiver. Trapping would also help, so wobb or dugtrio or magnezone would probably work well. Thought I'd probably add a bit more u-turn if I were to add a trapper.
No physical wall. I rely on revenge killing most physical threats. That is not good.
No phazing. Just perish song. Not good. Especially if the threat can 1hKO toed.
Toxicroak is shoehorned onto this team. I don't necessarily want croak and 5 guys who support specifically him, but half the time I don't use him.

The order of team importance to me, and value of each mon:
10/10 Toxicroak (undroppable, team's purpose is to make toxicroak shine)
9/10 Politoed (you'll have a hard time convincing me toed wasn't the best thing to happen to croak this gen)
7/10 Hydreigon/Thundurus-T (These guys are cool and I like them. If I'm going to drop them, it's at least going to be for pokemon that fill similar roles. Don't mind changing their sets though)
4/10 Genesect (I feel like this isn't his best set even for my team, he's redundant as hell, and I don't really like him too much anyway)
2/10 Jirachi (I don't like jirachi.)

This is my second ever rate-my-team, so please ask me to change anything formatting-wise if there's a problem, or to provide any more information.

inb4 10 people telling me I need skarmory. Even as I was writing this I was realizing that over and over. I will put skarmory over someone. I want to make this team a bit more "standard" anyway.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


Edit: Changes, Mk. II.

@ Leftovers Trait: Dry Skin
EVs: 244 HP / 252 Atk / 12 Def
Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Bulk Up
- Drain Punch
- Substitute
- Sucker Punch
I like the idea suggested for a swords dance toxicroak and I still need to test both extensively but his poor speed makes him more of an early game stallbreaker rather than a late game cleaner (also I don't like the bisharp formula, as in, SD then complete reliance on sucker punch). Also I'm pretty sure drain punch is legal on SD sets now so I'd probably use that over cross chop, regardless of the loss in power. Also I'm strongly considering running SD/Sub/Drain Punch/Sucker Punch. Please give me your input on the Sub SD set, since it seems to combine early/late game relevance. :( I miss focus punch a little though, it was really fun.

@ Leftovers Trait: Serene Grace
EVs: 252 HP / 220 SDef / 36 Spd
Calm Nature (+SDef, -Atk)
- Stealth Rock
- Wish
- Thunder
- U-turn
I will put up with this guy. He glues my team together and provides a valuable wall vs torn-t.

@ Choice Scarf
Trait: Download
EVs: 64 Atk / 252 SAtk / 192 Spd
Naive Nature (+Spd, -SDef)
- U-turn
- Bug Buzz
- Ice Beam
- Thunder
I've still been doing a lot better with this guy than rock polish, though I have to admit rock polish gives me a few problems to face.

@ Lum Berry
Trait: Volt Absorb
EVs:
Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
- Nasty Plot
- Thunder
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Focus Blast
Need to test

@ Life Orb
Trait: Levitate
EVs: 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
- Draco Meteor
- Surf
- Psyshock
- Roost
Haven't tried this yet. Looks strong enough.


The team as it stands:

 

[Asek]

Hi

Cool team. I didn't think there was much to be changed, but there is some things that could improve your team somewhat. First off, HP [GROUND] isn't really that nessecary considering that its main target is Heatran, and Heatran is promptly removed by your Hydreigon, Toxicroak and Politoed. Instead you could really use a STAB move there, to act as a powerful attack to muscle past targets, and do greater damage than any of your other current attacks. I think Bug Buzz > HP [GROUND] would work out really well for this, as you gain a powerful 90 base power STAB, that with a download boost + life orb will be heavy damage to all targets it hits neutrally, and is far more useful for your set than HP[GROUND]

On Jirachi, I didn't think think that Thunder Wave was the best choice to spread Paralysis around. Sure it has an 100% to paralyze, but it doesn't do any damage and is easily sponged by the threatening Thundurus-I who can use your set as set up bait or just a free switch in to spam a powerful Thunder or Volt Switch. Instead, try out Body Slam > Thunder wave, as you still retain the abilty to spread paralysis around, but you can now do it against everything you used to be able to besides Gengar, who loses to you anyway and Jellicent, who doesn't really give a care about paralysis anyway. Body Slam instead can't be taunted, and hits large threats to your team, most noticeably Jolteon and Thundurus-I.

GL with the team

 

[destinyunknown]

Hey Jambourine this looks like a cool team, but I feel it has a big weakness to Keldeo and Terrakion, and your team also has a lot of problems with entry hazards, as they can easily wear your team down. Running Starmie also lets you use Stealth Rock weak pokemon that can help your team performance (I will get into that later). Genesect is probably the most replaceable member of your team (and you don't like it anyway), because Jirachi is necessary to stop pokemon like Gengar, Latios or Tornadus-T from sweeping your team. Starmie's still a fast, hard hitting Special sweeper, so not much is lost here. Set:

Starmie@Life Orb | Natural Cure
Timid Nature | 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Hydro Pump / Thunder / Ice Beam / Rapid Spin

The other thing I would like to suggest is using Dragonite instead of Hydreigon. Your team as it currently stands it's very weak to sun teams, especially those using Volcarona, Gothithelle or things such as Sunny Day Ninetales/Heatran. However, that's not the only reason to use Dragonite. Dragonite could act as a sweeper for your team, as well as another pokemon that can break through defensive pokemon (before, only Toxicroak could do it, and that meant Hippowdon was extremely troublesome for you). Against offensive teams, Dragonite can set up on a lot of pokemon thanks to Multiscale and sweep when his checks are weakened or removed. Here's the set:

Dragonite@Lum Berry | Multiscale
Adamant Nature | 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Dragon Dance / Waterfall / Outrage / ExtremeSpeed

(You can try Brick Break instead of ExtremeSpeed if you're worried about Ferrothorn)

 

[Thunderbolta]

A couple tweaks:
As Genesect will most likely be switching into something it forces out, then using rock polish, you don't really need so many speed EVs. Whilst they are nice to outspeed things unboosted (Most notably Modest Hydreigon and Adamant Haxorus), I'd try out this set:
52 HP/252 SpA/204 Spe. This allows you to outspeed everything you could before at +2, but adds a small amount of bulk. Just something to test out.

I like the idea of running Gensect with HP Ground, but I don't find it so useful myself, and it is still walled by Rotom-H. Not a major part of OU though, so I guess it isn't worth changing his set around. Sadly, Genesect has a serious case of 4 slot syndrome, as either Bug Buzz or Giga Drain is required to round out the coverage. Try running Bug Buzz > HP Ground.

For Jirachi, I'd try the set Water Pulse, Thunder, Body Slam, Iron Head. This'll allow you to paralyze all types, get a 90 power (a bit meh, but usable in the rain) attack with chance for confusion, and of course, flinch the hell out of everything you see. I'd then run a hasty 252 HP/120 Attack(Or SpA - take your pick)/136 Spe set.

 

[Jambourine]

Hi

Cool team. I didn't think there was much to be changed, but there is some things that could improve your team somewhat. First off, HP [GROUND] isn't really that nessecary considering that its main target is Heatran, and Heatran is promptly removed by your Hydreigon, Toxicroak and Politoed. Instead you could really use a STAB move there, to act as a powerful attack to muscle past targets, and do greater damage than any of your other current attacks. I think Bug Buzz > HP [GROUND] would work out really well for this, as you gain a powerful 90 base power STAB, that with a download boost + life orb will be heavy damage to all targets it hits neutrally, and is far more useful for your set than HP[GROUND]

On Jirachi, I didn't think think that Thunder Wave was the best choice to spread Paralysis around. Sure it has an 100% to paralyze, but it doesn't do any damage and is easily sponged by the threatening Thundurus-I who can use your set as set up bait or just a free switch in to spam a powerful Thunder or Volt Switch. Instead, try out Body Slam > Thunder wave, as you still retain the abilty to spread paralysis around, but you can now do it against everything you used to be able to besides Gengar, who loses to you anyway and Jellicent, who doesn't really give a care about paralysis anyway. Body Slam instead can't be taunted, and hits large threats to your team, most noticeably Jolteon and Thundurus-I.

GL with the team

I like your suggestion to swap body slam over thunder wave, that's something I was thinking myself. Bug buzz is definitely better than HP ground and heatran I only prepared for because he could end my sweep, though I have plenty of options to remove him. I assume you're talking about thundurus T since thundurus I is uber. Thundurus T is definitely a problem for my team.

Hey Jambourine this looks like a cool team, but I feel it has a big weakness to Keldeo and Terrakion, and your team also has a lot of problems with entry hazards, as they can easily wear your team down. Running Starmie also lets you use Stealth Rock weak pokemon that can help your team performance (I will get into that later). Genesect is probably the most replaceable member of your team (and you don't like it anyway), because Jirachi is necessary to stop pokemon like Gengar, Latios or Tornadus-T from sweeping your team. Starmie's still a fast, hard hitting Special sweeper, so not much is lost here. Set:

Starmie@Life Orb | Natural Cure
Timid Nature | 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Hydro Pump / Thunder / Ice Beam / Rapid Spin

The other thing I would like to suggest is using Dragonite instead of Hydreigon. Your team as it currently stands it's very weak to sun teams, especially those using Volcarona, Gothithelle or things such as Sunny Day Ninetales/Heatran. However, that's not the only reason to use Dragonite. Dragonite could act as a sweeper for your team, as well as another pokemon that can break through defensive pokemon (before, only Toxicroak could do it, and that meant Hippowdon was extremely troublesome for you). Against offensive teams, Dragonite can set up on a lot of pokemon thanks to Multiscale and sweep when his checks are weakened or removed. Here's the set:

Dragonite@Lum Berry | Multiscale
Adamant Nature | 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Dragon Dance / Waterfall / Outrage / ExtremeSpeed

(You can try Brick Break instead of ExtremeSpeed if you're worried about Ferrothorn)

This is excellent. Starmie would definitely pull weight on my team. I am a little weak to spikes and I really have no recovery on my team at all, not to mention starmie removing rocks for dragonite would be invaluable if I chose to use both. Dragonite I'm absolutely considering as it's very useful and standard and it would definitely help me break walls which is definitely something I had trouble with. I do have toxicroak who is a good switch in to most fighting types but because I only have FP as STAB he kind of has a hard time with anything which can break his subs. Not to mention he can't scare out walls like chansey for example once they know I don't have drain punch or cross chop or whatever. My team definitely needs more physical presence, it's nearly entirely special.

For Jirachi, I'd try the set Water Pulse, Thunder, Body Slam, Iron Head. This'll allow you to paralyze all types, get a 90 power (a bit meh, but usable in the rain) attack with chance for confusion, and of course, flinch the hell out of everything you see. I'd then run a hasty 252 HP/120 Attack(Or SpA - take your pick)/136 Spe set.

I like your genesect suggestions, definitely good ideas. I don't like this jirachi set though. I feel like it's one of his best sets, especially in rain, but more reliance on special pokemon and thunder is something I just don't want at all.

 

[Superpowerdude]

Hey i got your request nice looking rain team!

Looking at your team as DestinyUnknown mentioned your team is quite weak to Terrakion and Keldeo. If either of those two are scarfed they can deal huge damage to your team and they outspeed every single member of your team while getting super effective coverage on alot of them. Their banded and specs sets are almost impossible for your team to switch into because of their coverage and sheer power. You also mentioned your team to not have a wall breaker, making it sometimes hard to weaken or break through defensive cores.

To help against this problem i suggest Offensive Latios>Hydriegon As you mentioned in the op Latios also synergizes well with Toxicroak. This Latios set helps your team weaken your opponents defensive cores using Latios's base 130 special attack, Psyshock to get past special walls and his excellent coverage. This opens up the path for a Genesect or Toxicroak sweep. Although this set doesn't outspeed the Choice Scarf muskateers you can still prevent them from switching in with Psyshock and you will be able to outspeed the banded and specs varaints due to Latios having higher speed then Hydriegon (which is on of the reasons he is better for your team then Hydriegon). With a moveset of Draco Meteor/Surf/Thunder/Psyshock Latios has great coverage and can do significant damage to most walls except Ferrothorn who is handeld by Thunderous-T and Toxicroak. The item choice is up to you Expert Belt gives you increased damage on your moves if they hit super effectivly which is great since Latios has good coverage, but Life Orb can also be used although it gives Latios recoil damage Latios isn't ment to last to long anyway and this lets you do more damage to steel-types because this Latios can't hit steels super effectivley.

My only other suggestion is regarding your Toxicroak. Now even though your set is very creative and probally quite good, i feel like your team needs a dedicated set up sweeper. Your current Toxicroak set looks like something that weakens your opponents team so someone else can sweep. Since Toxicroak is the star of the show he would really appreciate having a set up move to clean up. I think that Swords Dance Toxicroak>Current Set would be much better. After Latios has weakend your opponents team Toxicroak would usually be able to come in on your opponent and get a Swords Dance boost with relative ease, thus ending the game in a late game sweep. With Ice Punch/Sucker Punch/Cross Chop you get the exact same coverage as your previous set. Life Orb is the preferred item to maximise damage output. Its not really a big change and you have probally already tried it but i think that the basic Swords Dance set is a much better late game cleaner.

Good luck with the team i hope i helped!

Sets

Hide

Latios @ Life Orb | Levitate
Timid | 4 Hp / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Draco Meteor | Surf | Thunder | Psyshock

*Expert Belt can be used over Life Orb but Life Orb is probally the best choice for your team

Toxicroak @ Life Orb | Dry Skin
Adamant | 4 Hp / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Swords Dance | Cross Chop | Sucker Punch | Ice Punch

Tl;dr

Hide

Latios--->Hydriegon

Toxicroak
.Swords Dance Set--->Current Set

~Superpowerdude

 

[Jambourine]

I've radically changed the team around. I haven't finalized the movesets of the remaining pokemon, and I haven't decided if the Thundurus should instead be a special Landorus I or even a physical Landorus T. Could someone help me on what threats I should be aware of for each option?

 

[PK Gaming]

sorry I'm late, I had some business to take care of...

You're much better off using Substitute over Ice Punch on Toxicroak. Substitute is what makes Toxicroak so deadly/annoyinh in the first place. It eases prediction, makes you immune to status (relevant against Ferrothorn, since you turn it into setup fodder now) and it lets you get the leg up against most Pokemon (since Sucker Punch is occasionally avoided with non attacking moves.) Dry skin recovers most of your lost HP in the first place so there's really no detriment to Substitute on Toxicroak. Believe me, you don't need Ice Punch. You have several Pokemon that can switch into Gliscor and wreck it's shit, so you don't have to worry about being walled by it, and the only other target that Ice Punch hits is Dragons, most of which are also hit hard by Drain Punch / Sucker Punch with the exception being Salamence & Dragonite. You're not touching Salamence on average and getting concrete damage on Dragonite is not worth losing Substitute.
In brief: Use Substitute over Ice Punch. Substitute can you games since you can set up on several defensive Pokemon such as Forretress, Ferrothorn, Politoed, it makes Sucker Punch more of a threat and overall it makes Toxicroak annoying to deal with.

If you have no intentions of tying with opposing Genesect, use an EV spread consisting of 64 Atk / 252 SpA / 192 Spe with Naive so you can basically outspeed everything in OU sans +1 jolly / +1 timid haxorus & hydreigon. (don't worry about them) Notably it gives your U-turns way more of punch.

I want to point out that Scizor and Genesect are redundant on the same team. Before anyone gets on my case, they're fundamentally very similar; bug typed u-turns that can revenge kill at a moments notice, though with some obvious differences. Your team seems to benefit from Genesect more than Scizor, so i recommend dropping Scizor. Your team as it stands right now is ridiculously weak to Tornadus-T and special attack spamming Dragon-types are annoying so I suggest you go back to using SpD Jirachi to deal with these threats.

==============
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Jirachi @ Leftovers
252 HP / 224 SpD / 32 Spe
Calm
- Stealth Rock
- Thunder
- Wish
- U-turn
==============
==============

I noticed that your current team lacked Stealth Rock, which is a HUGE no-no in the current metagame. You NEED to punish Pokemon like Tornadus-T and Genesect and SR weaks like Dragonite, Volc, Mence, etc or they will wreck your team. This set is a little different from before. Thunder is basically a super charged version of Body Slam, and U-turn nets you momentum and makes passing Wishes a little easier. I find that this set works a little better than the standard set, but that might be just me, so go ahead and use your old set if you prefer it.

On Latios, don't bother with a Calm Mind set. You're on the right track; Draco Meteor and Roost are much better alternatives. The best thing about Latios is that it's dangerous from the get go, and it's difficult to wear it down because it can find the time to roost, no problem (it especially needs roost so that it can consistently check things like Keldeo)

Life Orb is overkill on Thundurus-T, you should go with Lum Berry. Lum Berry's got this sweet little ability of preventing Blissey / Chansey from Toxicing you (stall teams can wear down a toxiced Thundurus-T by switch spamming), and avoid a potential paralysis from SpD Jirachi, meaning you now beat it a 100% of the time.

Summary

Scizor ==== > SpD Jirachi w/ Stealth Rock
Genesect w/ 64 Atk / 252 SpA / 192 Spe* (up to you)
Latios w/ Draco Meteor & Roost over Dragon Pulse & Calm Mind
Thundurus-T w/ Lum Berry over Life Orb

Hope I helped :o

 

[Jambourine]

I like these suggestions a lot! I hadn't actually thought to use Thundurus like that, and using it to absorb a status is useful anyway, perhaps like a spore from a smeargle or something. My only question left about thundurus is if I should definitively keep my set as all moves are too important to drop, and I only ask that because I'd love to put volt switch on it for early game scouting and scarf-faking. Lum berry will help me fake a scarf plenty, though. Also Sub/Bulk-Up vs Sub/SD? I'm thinking bulk-up since that will make it get tougher subs. I think I really like a jirachi with the wish u-turn combination, so I know when they stay in and it's dangerous to pass to my weaker guys, but a jirachi with no iron head is a little foreign to me. In a good way I guess. Also I still kind of miss the power of focus punch on croak, but I guess that's pretty outclassed by breloom anyway. It's a pretty good looking team, I'll come back and post my thoughts on it in a couple days I guess and highlight some problems I have.

Edit: I couldn't help but noticing I only have one physical attacker. Isn't this a problem? I guess I have latios with psyshock too... And genesect's u-turn.