Mantine (Revamp)

[Arcticblast]

Mantine's here. And, NO, it is not just an inferior Milotic.

Analysis

QC Status:
Approval: 2/2
Rejection: 0

GP Status:
Approval: 2/2
Rejection: 0/2

[Overview]

<p>Mantine's stats are the special equivalent of Skarmory's, complete with massive Special Defense. Apart from that though, everything else seems rather lackluster. Its only reliable recovery is in the move Rest. Mantine has a 4x weakness to Electric-type attacks and a Stealth Rock weakness, not to mention poor Defense and mediocre HP, all of which hamper its ability to function as a good bulky Water. It also appears to be completely outclassed by other bulky Water-types such as Milotic and Slowbro.</p>

<p>However, if one looks past the flaws for a moment, Mantine's advantages become clear. First and foremost is its typing. While it may at first seem negative, it provides an invaluable neutrality to Grass, allowing it to switch into Grass-types with little fear and hit them back with STAB-boosted Hidden Power. Its Flying-type also grants it immunity to Spikes and Toxic Spikes, which most other bulky Waters fear. Second comes its ability, Water Absorb, which regains 25% of its HP if hit by a Water-type move. This allows it to switch into predicted Water-type moves without fearing Stealth Rock. Overall, Mantine is a sturdy special wall who, when used right, can be a great asset to balanced or defensive teams. Just keep it away from Thunderbolt.</p>

[SET]
name: Walling RestTalk
move 1: Rest
move 2: Sleep Talk
move 3: Surf
move 4: HP Flying / Signal Beam / Toxic
item: Leftovers
ability: Water Absorb
nature: Calm
evs: 252 HP / 40 SpA / 216 SpD

[SET COMMENTS]

<p>This set aims to capitalize on Mantine's incredible special bulk. With this spread, the damage it can take is almost unbelievable. Powerful attacks such as Timid Choice Specs Sceptile's Leaf Storm is only a 3HKO at best, taking into consideration the Special Attack drop, as is Timid Life Orb Alakazam's Psychic. With a special-oriented set, Mantine can switch into the special Grass-types of UU and hit back with STAB Hidden Power Flying. It laughs at any special Water-type without a boosting move or Taunt, such as the ever-present Milotic, and any Choice-locked Pokemon on a Water, Ground, or special Fire move, such as Azumarill, Moltres, and Dugtrio. Mantine can also make a fantastic status absorber for your team.</p>

[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

<p>There are multiple options for your fourth move. Hidden Power Flying is your main attack, receiving STAB and hitting many Pokemon in UU hard; it has the ability to 2HKO Sceptile. Signal Beam hits many Psychic-type Pokemon in UU super effectively, while still hitting the Grass-types. Toxic makes Mantine better at stalling, although running Toxic and Surf together is a terrible idea, as then you are walled by several relatively common UU Pokemon such as Venusaur, Quilfish, and most notably Toxicroak, who absorbs Surf with its ability, Dry Skin, and is immune to Toxic. The other two simply resist Water attacks.</p>

<p>To work efficiently, Mantine requires Rapid Spin support, as a wall taking 25% damage to its health just by switching in is ugly. Hitmontop, Donphan, and Claydol all make excellent partners for this reason due to Rock-type resistance, with Claydol and Donphan also being immune to Electric. Which one you should use depends on your team needs and playstyle. Other good partners include high Defense Pokemon such as Aggron and Steelix, especially the latter due to its Electric-type immunity. Mantine loses to most boosting sweepers of any type, especially Calm Mind Alakazam and Swords Dance Venusaur. It also cannot break Azumarill's Substitutes, so you should use Mantine with caution when switching into it. Lanturn also stops Mantine cold.</p>

[SET]
name: Alternate RestTalk
move 1: Rest
move 2: Sleep Talk / Toxic
move 3: Surf
move 4: Hidden Power Flying
item: Life Orb / Leftovers
ability: Water Absorb
nature: Calm
evs: 252 HP / 240 Def / 16 SpA

[SET COMMENTS]

<p>This set attempts to take a more well-rounded approach. It is only 3HKOed by many resisted physical hits, such as Adamant Hitmontop's Close Combat, allowing more ease of switching in. It allows Mantine to counter all forms of Azumarill, as HP Flying now does a minimum of 101 damage, which will always break Azumarill's Substitutes. It also makes a good wall to mixed Blaziken without ThunderPunch or Stone Edge. This set works against stall teams, as with Life Orb it becomes somewhat harder to switch into. Ypu should use this with caution, however, as it loses much of its massive special bulk with this set, making it less of a safe switch-in to Venusaur, Sceptile, and Alakazam.</p>

[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

<p>As far as support goes, the same can be said for both sets: Rapid Spin. However, Mantine's counters change. You are now 2HKOed by Specs Sceptile's Leaf Storm, in addition to losing walling power over other threats. To remedy your new weakness to the powerful Grass-types, Swellow makes a good teammate, as it outspeeds all of them. A plus to this set, however, is that it can switch into a Choice Scarf-locked Hitmonlee, with some luck against Choice Band sets, and OHKO back with Hidden Power Flying.</p>

[Team Options]

<p>Rapid Spin support is essential to Mantine's survival. Without it, it loses a good amount of its natural bulk. Claydol, Donphan, and Hitmontop make good partners for this reason.</p>

<p>Mantine has problems with most Mismagius, who can either zap it with Thunderbolt, set up on its face, or wear it out with Taunt, Will-O-Wisp, and Shadow Ball. For this reason, sturdy Dark-type Pokemon such as Spiritomb and Drapion (especially the former) make excellent partners, as does Choice Scarf Rotom to an extent. The safest bet is to try to wear it down before killing it outright. Mantine should not, under any condition, switch into Mismagius to wall it.</p>

[Optional Changes]

<p>There really aren't that many other moves to consider. Mantine's most notable option is Signal Beam. There are plenty of Grass- and Psychic-types in UU, so if coverage is what you need, then Signal Beam should be considered, although Surf hits Psychics just as hard. Mantine also gets a few nifty options in Haze and Mirror Coat. A set involving Swift Swim is plausible, but Mantine is terrible at it, not to mention being outclassed by plenty of other Pokemon. Mantine has a plethora of physical moves, but base 40 Attack isn't getting it anywhere.</p>

[Counters]

<p>Lanturn walks all over Mantine as even Hidden Power Grass (which Mantine should not be running anyway) barely scratches it. Other Electric-types such as Manectric and Ampharos destroy it and are capable of taking a hit from Surf. Toxicroak and Qwilfish can set up Swords Dances on Mantine and hit its weak physical defense with Stone Edge or Poison Jab, respectively. Stone Edge Quagsire works well if Mantine lacks Hidden Power Grass. Mismagius absolutely destroys Mantine, no matter the set. Boosting sweepers, Calm Mind Alakazam in particular, can muscle their way past Mantine easily, as Mantine can't do much back. Really, just hit Mantine with your hardest physical moves, and it will go down rather quickly.</p>

 

[breh]

And, NO, it is not just an inferior Milotic.

This is a lie.

Mantine is not nearly as manly as its name implies... In fact, it takes most hits like a girl and hits like one too. Both defenses are worse than milotic's.

The only (I repeat: only) advantages it has over milotic are neutrality to grass and admittedly nicer abilities.

Rain Dance is hard to do (poor synergy with the rest of the team; outclassed in general) while restalk is just setup bait for ________ (insert any pokemon here), especially mismagius (who will switch in, say hi, NP up, and k/o with t-bolt or NP up again while you struggle to break its subs)

The inability to counter all forms of venusaur also makes restalk poor; if you can't take its sleep effectively then wtf is mantine doing?

Mantine has one of the shallowest movepools ever; every move that it has is also possesed by milotic. It is also plagued by poor stats, which are (once again), inferior to milotic's - every stat is lower bar SpD, which is still useless due to milotic's higher hp.

Finally, taking rocks damage is bad and there are so few electric moves in UU it's almost not worth mentioning (pretty much the odd manectric and that's it)

In all honesty, I have no clue what it can do that isn't outclassed horribly... probably something involving water absorb

 

[Random Pizzaman]

You're far too harsh Breludicolo (something I've noticed in your other posts too). While Mantine is very similar to Milotic, the different typing and ability make it so it does differ a bit from Milotic and isn't flat out outclassed. Neutrality to Grass is huge- it's not as scared by Venusaur, Sceptile and especially sweepr Ludicolo as much as Milotic, and it can take a Fighting attack if it needs to (Toxicroak and Poliwrath come to mind). Water Absorb ironically lets beat other Milotic easily and is just useful in general. And while it is SR weak, it takes no Spikes damage and isn't totally boned by Toxic Spikes. Being outclassed isn't a reason not to post a Pokemon's best set (see: the Sandslash update).
However, I am really skeptical of the Swift Swim set. OP, I would just stick with Resttalk for now. And unslash Signal Beam, since Mantine should NOT be your Alakazam counter. Unslash HP Flying from Surf too, and leave the second one HP Flying / Toxic.

 

[franky]

if you're going to use mantine you're going to have to convince people why it is not outclassed by the best bulky water. for starters, hp flying needs a primary slash. with the grass resist, you are not easily warded off by venusaur, sceptile, and leafeon - something milotic does when facing grass-types. if you are at pristine condition and the opponent is running low in hp, you can hit them back with hp flying. with milotic, it is easily threatened by someone like 20% venusaur, while mantine can actually retaliate back with hp flying without dying instantly from power whip or leaf storm. the point is, you need stuff to take advantage of mantine's selling points and stab hp flying is pretty much required.

hp flying vs. leafeon - 66.4% - 78.2%
hp flying vs. venusaur - 41.9% - 49.8%
hp flying vs. sceptile - 51.1% - 60.3%

signal beam seems like a silly slash since surf deals 38.5% - 45.6% anyways and has a chance to 2hko if they have taken lo damage once. so i'll have to agree with random pizzaman with the slashes it seems like the best way to go.

the set comments must require the stuff mantine is supposed to wall. most people automatically assume "oh water-type, it counters fire-types!". well nah, milotic outclasses mantine at doing that. what you need to point out is having the ability to check moltres - one of the few fire-types that is capable of muscling its way through normal bulky waters like milotic. spin support is also required in the partners section to provide longevity for mantine. hitmontop sticks in my head as an obvious partner because it packs rock-resistance for mantine. (against someone like aggron). the last thing id like for you to mention is that this set is actually a pretty dope switch in to cb azumarill (most spam waterfall anyways). anyways, mention shit that differentiates it from milotic, slowbro, and even slowking.

 

[Arcticblast]

Mantine is not nearly as manly as its name implies... In fact, it takes most hits like a girl and hits like one too. Both defenses are worse than milotic's. 140 Special Defense?

The only (I repeat: only) advantages it has over milotic are neutrality to grass and admittedly nicer abilities. See below

Rain Dance is hard to do (poor synergy with the rest of the team; outclassed in general) while restalk is just setup bait for ________ (insert any pokemon here), especially mismagius (who will switch in, say hi, NP up, and k/o with t-bolt or NP up again while you struggle to break its subs) I never said it countered Mismagius. She's actually a huge threat to Mantine, with Nasty Plot/CM and Thunderbolt. RestTalk is actually very bulky, and hey - Rhyperior and Moltres aren't switching in anytime soon.

The inability to counter all forms of venusaur also makes restalk poor; if you can't take its sleep effectively then wtf is mantine doing? RestTalk, while it doesn't explicitly COUNTER Venusaur, it absorbs sleep and any Special attacks like a pro, something Milotic cannot do. It is a check, with HP Flying doing 41.9% - 49.8% to standard Venusaur. It loses to physical Venusaur, but can beat virtually any other variant (SubSeeders are debatable).

Mantine has one of the shallowest movepools ever; every move that it has is also possesed by milotic. It is also plagued by poor stats, which are (once again), inferior to milotic's - every stat is lower bar SpD, which is still useless due to milotic's higher hp. Mantine's movepool is good enough to accomplish what needs to be accomplished.

Finally, taking rocks damage is bad and there are so few electric moves in UU it's almost not worth mentioning (pretty much the odd manectric and that's it) Rotom, Lanturn, and Mismagius commonly carry Thunderbolt/Charge Beam. I talked about rocks.

In all honesty, I have no clue what it can do that isn't outclassed horribly... probably something involving water absorb Plenty. It can stall out Milotic. Other Milotic really can't.

Bolded comments are bolded. Way to be harsh.

if you're going to use mantine you're going to have to convince people why it is not outclassed by the best bulky water. for starters, hp flying needs a primary slash. with the grass resist, you are not easily warded off by venusaur, sceptile, and leafeon - something milotic does when facing grass-types. if you are at pristine condition and the opponent is running low in hp, you can hit them back with hp flying. with milotic, it is easily threatened by someone like 20% venusaur, while mantine can actually retaliate back with hp flying without dying instantly from power whip or leaf storm. the point is, you need stuff to take advantage of mantine's selling points and stab hp flying is pretty much required.

hp flying vs. leafeon - 66.4% - 78.2%
hp flying vs. venusaur - 41.9% - 49.8%
hp flying vs. sceptile - 51.1% - 60.3%

signal beam seems like a silly slash since surf deals 38.5% - 45.6% anyways and has a chance to 2hko if they have taken lo damage once. so i'll have to agree with random pizzaman with the slashes it seems like the best way to go.

the set comments must require the stuff mantine is supposed to wall. most people automatically assume "oh water-type, it counters fire-types!". well nah, milotic outclasses mantine at doing that. what you need to point out is having the ability to check moltres - one of the few fire-types that is capable of muscling its way through normal bulky waters like milotic. spin support is also required in the partners section to provide longevity for mantine. hitmontop sticks in my head as an obvious partner because it packs rock-resistance for mantine. (against someone like aggron). the last thing id like for you to mention is that this set is actually a pretty dope switch in to cb azumarill (most spam waterfall anyways). anyways, mention shit that differentiates it from milotic, slowbro, and even slowking.

I think Signal Beam at least deserves a mention, as it will ALWAYS 2HKO Zam with LO recoil and can hit the other Psychics, like the pixies and Hypno, harder. I will put a mention in AC of it. I'm putting in the other stuff too, but for now keeping the Swift Swim set so other people can weigh in on it.

 

[Oglemi]

I like the fact that Mantine has a nice base 70 speed so that it doesn't have to invest fully in Speed to outrun things in rain. What I have to question about it though is the slash of Ice Beam. I mean, you already stated that Hydro Pump + HP Flying is hitting everything bar Lanturn, which Ice Beam isn't hitting either. IMO it shouldn't be used unless the user is really scared of Altaria or something.

But then I have to question the purpose of Toxic too. Is it for Milotic or what? Because I'd rather sweep shit while under rain rather than trying to use Toxic on things. What other moves does Mantine have access too that'd be useful under rain? I can't imagine anything that'd get it past Milotic, but maybe another coverage move to help against other things?

 

[Bluewind]

You should take note of the following: Milotic, with the spread you gave, reaches 394 HP and 374 SpD; while Mantine reaches 334 HP and 407 SpD. I'm not sure if that's how overall bulk is determined, but multiplying the HP by the SpD of each one of them, Milotic raches 147356; while Mantine only reaches 135938, meaning, ironically, that Milotic is more bulky than Mantine, even on the special end; and much more on the physical one. That added to the fact Milotic has superior stats in every single one of the other categories (even Attack lol) and to Marvel Scale means Milotic only has two real advantages: it's secondary Flying-type (that unfortunately comes with a SR weakness, something way more common than Spikes) and Water Absorb (which isn't that useful I suppose). I've heard even though a poké is outclassed by the other performing certain role, that doesn't mean it shouldn't get an analysis; but I thought it was worth pointing out that fact anyways.

Also, the EVs on the Swift Swim set seem to be somewhat arbitrary. I can't recall anything that Mantine really wants to outspeed outside of Scarf Rotom, so I believe the Speed EVs should be bumped to 224/228 (because of the IV drop from HP Flying). With that said, I think this set should get a mention mainly as a rain starter instead of a sweeper, because 284 SpA isn't really going to get past much, which might make a defensive spread more effective than the current one. I do think, however, that packing on Electric weaknesses on a Rain Dance team isn't something many people desire, thus making its usefulness very doubtful on rain teams.

 

[Arcticblast]

You should take note of the following: Milotic, with the spread you gave, reaches 394 HP and 374 SpD; while Mantine reaches 334 HP and 407 SpD. I'm not sure if that's how overall bulk is determined, but multiplying the HP by the SpD of each one of them, Milotic raches 147356; while Mantine only reaches 135938, meaning, ironically, that Milotic is more bulky than Mantine, even on the special end; and much more on the physical one. That added to the fact Milotic has superior stats in every single one of the other categories (even Attack lol) and to Marvel Scale means Milotic only has two real advantages: it's secondary Flying-type (that unfortunately comes with a SR weakness, something way more common than Spikes) and Water Absorb (which isn't that useful I suppose). I've heard even though a poké is outclassed by the other performing certain role, that doesn't mean it shouldn't get an analysis; but I thought it was worth pointing out that fact anyways.

I know Milotic is more bulky using the same spread, but...

Milotic stats for last month

| Milotic    | Item         | Leftovers        |    85.9 |
| Milotic    | Item         | Life Orb         |    12.8 |
| Milotic    | Item         | Choice Scarf     |     1.3 |
| Milotic    | Nature       | Bold             |    58.7 |
| Milotic    | Nature       | Calm             |    20.5 |
| Milotic    | Nature       | Timid            |    10.7 |
| Milotic    | Nature       | Modest           |    10.0 |
| Milotic    | HP EV        | Very High (200+) |    40.8 |
| Milotic    | HP EV        | Max              |    34.2 |
| Milotic    | HP EV        | None             |    12.0 |
| Milotic    | HP EV        | Other (4)        | <   8.5 |
| Milotic    | Attack EV    | None             |   100.0 |
| Milotic    | Defense EV   | Max              |    43.7 |
| Milotic    | Defense EV   | Very High (200+) |    18.7 |
| Milotic    | Defense EV   | None             |    16.2 |
| Milotic    | Defense EV   | High (150-200)   |    11.4 |
| Milotic    | Defense EV   | Other (2)        | <   7.0 |
| Milotic    | SpAttack EV  | None             |    76.4 |
| Milotic    | SpAttack EV  | Max              |    13.4 |
| Milotic    | SpAttack EV  | Other (3)        | <   5.4 |
| Milotic    | SpDefense EV | None             |    70.6 |
| Milotic    | SpDefense EV | Low (50-100)     |    16.4 |
| Milotic    | SpDefense EV | Other (5)        | <   5.0 |
| Milotic    | Speed EV     | None             |    66.9 |
| Milotic    | Speed EV     | Low (50-100)     |    14.8 |
| Milotic    | Speed EV     | Max              |    11.5 |
| Milotic    | Speed EV     | Other (2)        | <   5.4 |

Since when are Milotic being used primarily as special walls? Now, onto the other points:

The Flying-type is huge. While it comes with a nasty SR weak and x4 weak to Electric, it provides huge benefits, primarily avoiding (Toxic) Spikes and taking neutral damage from Grass moves. With the latter, it can boldly switch in to Venusaur, something Milotic can't do.

Water Absorb is also rather useful, allowing it to negate SR damage (assuming it has over 25% health before switching in, otherwise it dies). It also allows it to wall Milotic, who has to resort to (at best) Ice Beam.

Also, the EVs on the Swift Swim set seem to be somewhat arbitrary. I can't recall anything that Mantine really wants to outspeed outside of Scarf Rotom, so I believe the Speed EVs should be bumped to 224/228 (because of the IV drop from HP Flying). With that said, I think this set should get a mention mainly as a rain starter instead of a sweeper, because 284 SpA isn't really going to get past much, which might make a defensive spread more effective than the current one. I do think, however, that packing on Electric weaknesses on a Rain Dance team isn't something many people desire, thus making its usefulness very doubtful on rain teams.

I was thinking of removing the Rain Dance set anyway. A Rain boosted Hydro Pump is still fearsome, even taking a chunk out of bulky Mismagius. I assume these EVs are for outrunning Timid Scarf Rotom?

 

[whistle]

the set i liked the most is

mantine @ life orb (calm)
252 hp / 240 def / 16 satk
- hp flying
- surf
- rest
- sleep talk

funnily enough, hp flying from the current set deals something absurd like 22% max to azumarill meaning you never break its subs and it can wail away until it crits you. 16 satk and a life orb means you do a minimum of 101 damage to azumarill. life orb also generally makes you more of a pain to switch into for offensive teams, especially if they go to a venusaur/toxicroak and eat a hp flying. surf also does more to rotom, manectric, etc. i never really found i needed the leftovers recovery cause of restalk and water absorb, either. you could probably slash leftovers just "because it's a defensive set", though.

i found mantine a lot more successful with defense evs instead of special defense evs. it's not taking much damage from most special attacks anyways because of its massive sdef base stat, but not investing in defense means it gets knocked around a lot more by physical attacks that it resists. it's the same situation as skarmory (funny considering mantine is skarm's stat mirror)... except there are benefits to using defense skarm and i did not find any advantages to using sdef mantine.

lo arcanine flare blitz vs 252/0 mantine: 49.7% - 58.7%
lo arcanine flare blitz vs 252/240 mantine: 37.1% - 44%
stuff like that made defense a lot more useful for me. also applicable to hitmontop close combat (to a lesser extent hitmonlee), blaziken superpower (note that you're basically a perfect counter to mix blaziken this way), azumarill focus punch / ice punch / return, etc.

hp flying is basically mandatory, since it means you don't give a free switch to venusaur/toxicroak which are two pokemon mantine should check if not counter (special variants, at any rate). its also generally just a nice stab to use to hit stuff that you switch into like azumarill, ludicolo, etc. surf is there cause its surf and hits fire/ground pokemon. i think toxic should get a big mention, if not a slash, because it means you can mess with milotic and other bulky waters.

spinner is the most important thing you can use to support mantine for obvious reasons.

i didn't test the swift swim set and i don't really intend to test it due to my shit skill/luck with rain dance teams, but just from a theorymon perspective it doesn't seem like it's very useful. redundant defensive typing and low offensive stats -> i'd rather use something else.

 

[Arcticblast]

the set i liked the most is

mantine @ life orb (calm)
252 hp / 240 def / 16 satk
- hp flying
- surf
- rest
- sleep talk

funnily enough, hp flying from the current set deals something absurd like 22% max to azumarill meaning you never break its subs and it can wail away until it crits you. 16 satk and a life orb means you do a minimum of 101 damage to azumarill. life orb also generally makes you more of a pain to switch into for offensive teams, especially if they go to a venusaur/toxicroak and eat a hp flying. surf also does more to rotom, manectric, etc. i never really found i needed the leftovers recovery cause of restalk and water absorb, either. you could probably slash leftovers just "because it's a defensive set", though.

i found mantine a lot more successful with defense evs instead of special defense evs. it's not taking much damage from most special attacks anyways because of its massive sdef base stat, but not investing in defense means it gets knocked around a lot more by physical attacks that it resists. it's the same situation as skarmory (funny considering mantine is skarm's stat mirror)... except there are benefits to using defense skarm and i did not find any advantages to using sdef mantine.

lo arcanine flare blitz vs 252/0 mantine: 49.7% - 58.7%
lo arcanine flare blitz vs 252/240 mantine: 37.1% - 44%
stuff like that made defense a lot more useful for me. also applicable to hitmontop close combat (to a lesser extent hitmonlee), blaziken superpower (note that you're basically a perfect counter to mix blaziken this way), azumarill focus punch / ice punch / return, etc.

hp flying is basically mandatory, since it means you don't give a free switch to venusaur/toxicroak which are two pokemon mantine should check if not counter (special variants, at any rate). its also generally just a nice stab to use to hit stuff that you switch into like azumarill, ludicolo, etc. surf is there cause its surf and hits fire/ground pokemon. i think toxic should get a big mention, if not a slash, because it means you can mess with milotic and other bulky waters.

Personally, I'm very hesitant about removing the set already up (aside from Swift Swim) due to success I've had with it. However, this seems like a really good idea. I will do some testing and see how it goes. Right now, I should get some sleep, so testing will have to wait until tomorrow.

 

[Bluewind]

@Arcticblast: Point is Milotic could run the same set if it wanted and wall things better (and even the "new standart" of Milotic, 252 HP/56 SpD, has 92% of Mantine tanking capabilities with way better stats in other areas). The Venusaur part isn't true as well, Mantine still loses to Power Whip Venusaur, bulky Venusaur and can lose to SpAtk Venusaur if sleep doesn't go out so well. It's actually a rather shaky check. Regarding another thing you mentioned, it's not like Surf from Milotic would deal hellish amounts of damage to Mantine, and Mantine can't do a thing back either, which means both go on a stalemate that Milotic will win if it has Haze. Again, my point is not to detract you from writing that set, but to make you emphatize more Mantine's benefits over Milotic (like franky said) instead of Venusaur and SpD hyperboles.

 

[Arcticblast]

Bump. I haven't had time to test whistle's set because of school, but rest assured that I will do so soon.

 

[FlareBlitz]

Goddamn it, whoostle stole my idea.

Yeah Mantine's defense is absolutely terrible; the Calm set gets 2hko'd by Arcanine's Flare Blitz after SR like whoostle pointed out, and one of the best resistances of its typing (Fighting) gets wasted when fighting types 2hko you right through it. I think Whoostle's set is probably the best it can do, with slashes of Toxic over Sleep Talk and Leftovers over Life Orb being appropriate.

I wouldn't worry too much about the "outclassed" thing since does this have a few merits over Milotic (EQ immunity, fighting resistance, grass neutrality) even if it is statistically much poorer.

The Swift Swim set doesn't work, sorry. It's too weak. While HP Flying may seem useful, the special attack is so mediocre that it gets easily outdamged by things like Ice Beam from Omastar. As a supporter it has too many weaknesses in common with the sweepers. Rejecting that.

Make my changes and you can consider this:

 

[Arcticblast]

Done. While I preferred the Special Defensive set (I run Omastar lead and Rhyperior on my team), the set with Defense EVs was pretty useful.

 

[Bluewind]

I really wonder if fusing those 2 sets into one isn't the best option. I know they play much differently and have their own perks each; but you could mention an alternative spread and item change only (as they use the same moveset). Might make one of the sets look "unimportant" though, but I thought it was worth mentioning. Finally, I'm all for making whistle's set the main option. Anyways:

Oh and you only need 2 stamps, which means this can be moved.

 

[Arcticblast]

I'll see what I can do about putting whistle's set the primary one, although it seems like the analysis would flow better in the current order.

If a mod could move this sometime, that'd be great.

 

[Arcticblast]

Edited with writeup. Requesting this to be moved. Also changed the title to a revamp.

 

[danmantincan]

Changes in Blue
Removals in Red
Comments in Bold

Mantine's here. And, NO, it is not just an inferior Milotic.

Analysis

QC Status:
Approval: 2/2
Rejection: 0

GP Status:
Approval: 0/2
Rejection: 0/2

[Overview]

<p>Mantine is Skarmory's stat mirror, complete with massive Special Defense. After you see this, though, it seems rather lackluster. Its only reliable recovery is in the move Rest. It has a 4x weakness to Electric attacks and a Stealth Rock weakness, not to mention poor Defense and mediocre HP, which hamper its ability to function as a good bulky Water. It appears to be completely outclassed by other bulky Water types such as Milotic and Slowbro.</p>

<p>However, if one looks past the flaws for a moment, its advantages become clear. First and foremost is its typing. While it may at first seem negative, it provides an invaluable Grass neutrality, allowing it to switch into Grass-types with little fear and hit them back with STAB boosted Hidden Power. Its Flying type also grants it immunity to Spikes and Toxic Spikes Ground moves (most bulky waters are able to recover from unboosted Ground attacks with ease), both things feared by most other bulky Waters. Second comes its ability, Water Absorb which regains 25% of its HP if hit by a Water move. This allows it to switch into predicted Water-type moves without fearing Stealth Rock. All things considered, Mantine is a sturdy Special wall that, when used right, can be a great asset to balanced or defensive teams. Just keep it away from Thunderbolt.</p>

[SET]
name: Walling RestTalk
move 1: Rest
move 2: Sleep Talk
move 3: Surf
move 4: HP Flying / Signal Beam / Toxic
item: Leftovers
ability: Water Absorb
nature: Calm
evs: 252 HP / 40 SpA / 216 SpD

[SET COMMENTS]

<p>This set aims to capitalize on Mantine's incredible Special bulk. With this spread, the damage it can take is almost unbelievable. Powerful attacks such as Timid Choice Specs Sceptile's Leaf Storm is only a 3HKO at best, taking in the Special Attack drop, as is Timid Life Orb Alakazam's Psychic. With a Special-oriented set, Mantine can switch into the mainly special Grass-types of UU and hit back with STAB Hidden Power Flying. It laughs at any Special Water-type without a boosting move or Taunt, even absorbing attacks from the ever-present Milotic, and any Choice-locked Pokemon on a Water, Ground, or special Fire move, such as Azumarril. It can easily put a stop to Moltres, taking nothing from everything except any uncommon weird Hidden Power types. It Mantine can makes a fantastic status Sleep absorber for your team. and a good check to Rain Dance teams. (The only common member of Rain Dance teams that Mantine can effectively wall is Grass Knot-less Ludicolo)</p>

[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

<p>There are multiple options for your fourth move. HP Flying is your main move, receiving STAB and hitting many Pokemon in UU hard. It has the ability to 2HKO Sceptile. Signal Beam hits the many Psychic-type Pokemon in UU super effectively, while still hitting the Grass types. Toxic makes it better at stalling, although running Toxic and Surf together is a terrible idea, as you are walled by several Pokemon such as Toxicroak, Venusaur, and Qwilfish.</p>

<p>To work efficiently, Mantine requires Rapid Spin support, as a wall taking 25% just by switching in is ugly. Hitmontop, Donphan and Claydol make excellent partners for this reason, both resisting Rock and Claydol and Donphan being immune to Electric. Which one you use depends on your team needs and playstyle. Other good partners include high-Defense Pokemon such as Aggron and Steelix, especially the latter. Mantine loses to most boosting sweepers of any type, especially Calm Mind Alakazam and Swords Dance Venusaur. It cannot break Azumarril's Substitutes, so one should use caution when switching in to it. Lanturn also stops it cold.</p>

[SET]
name: Alternate RestTalk
move 1: Rest
move 2: Sleep Talk / Toxic
move 3: Surf
move 4: Hidden Power Flying
item: Life Orb / Leftovers
ability: Water Absorb
nature: Calm
evs: 252 HP / 240 Def / 16 SpA

[SET COMMENTS]

<p>This set attempts to take a more well-rounded approach. It is only 3HKO'd by many resisted Physical hits such as Adamant Hitmontop's Close Combat, allowing more ease of switching in. It allows Mantine to counter all forms of Azumarril in one way or another, as HP Flying now does a minimum of 101 damage, which will always break an Azumarril's Substitutes. It makes a good wall to Mixed Blaziken without Thunderpunch or Stone Edge. This set puts additional pressure on stall teams. One should use this with caution, however, as it loses much of its massive Special bulk with this set, making it less of a safe switch-in to Venusaur, Sceptile, and Alakazam.</p>

[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

<p>As far as support goes, the same can be said for both sets: Rapid Spin, Claydol, Donphan, the usual. However, its counters change. You are now 2HKO'd by Specs Sceptile's Leaf Storm, in addition to losing walling power over other threats. A plus to this set, however, is that it can switch into a Choice-locked Heracross, and with some luck against CB sets, and OHKO back with Hidden Power Flying.</p>

[Team Options]

<p>Rapid Spin support is essential to Mantine's survival. Without it, it loses a good amount of its natural automatic bulk. As previously stated, Claydol, Donphan, and Hitmontop make good partners for this reason.</p>

<p>Mantine has problems with most forms of Mismagius, who can either zap it with Thunderbolt, boost in its face, or wear it out with Taunt, Will-o-Wisp and Shadow Ball. For this reason, sturdy Dark-type Pokemon such as Spiritomb and Drapion (especially the former) make excellent partners, as does Choice Scarf Rotom to an extent. The safest bet is to try to wear it down before killing it outright. Mantine should not, under any condition, switch in to Mismagius to wall it.</p>

[Optional Changes]

<p>There really aren't that many. Mantine's most notable option is Signal Beam. There are plenty of Grass- and Psychic-types in UU, so if coverage is what you need, then Signal Beam should be considered, although Surf hits Psychics just as hard. Mantine gets a few nifty options in Haze and Mirror Coat. A set involving Swift Swim is plausible, but Mantine is terrible at it, not to mention being outclassed by plenty of other Pokemon. Mantine has a plethora of Physical moves, but base 40 Attack isn't getting it anywhere.</p>

[Counters]

<p>Lanturn walks all over Mantine as even Hidden Power Grass (which Mantine should not be running anyway) barely scratches him. Other Electric-types like Manectric and Ampharos destroy him and are capable of taking an unboosted hit from Surf. Toxicroak and Qwilfish can set up Swords Dances on him and hit his weak physical Defense with Stone Edge or Poison Jab, respectively. Stone Edge Quagsire works well if Mantine lacks Hidden Power Grass. Mismagius absolutely destroys Mantine, no matter the set. Boosting sweepers, Calm Mind Alakazam in particular, can muscle their way past Mantine easily, as Mantine can't do much back. Really, just hit Mantine with your hardest physical moves, and it will go down rather quickly.</p>

 

[Arcticblast]

Thank you danmantincan.

 

[Fatecrashers]

Do androids dream of electric GP checks?

GP Check 1

Deletions in Red
Additions in Blue
(Comments in brackets)

[Overview]

<p>Mantine is Skarmory's stat mirror Mantine's stats are the special equivalent of Skarmory's, complete with massive Special Defense. After you see this Apart from that though, it everything else seems rather lackluster. Its only reliable recovery is in the move Rest. It has a 4x weakness to Electric-type attacks and a Stealth Rock weakness, not to mention poor Defense and mediocre HP, all of which hamper its ability to function as a good bulky Water. It appears to be completely outclassed by other bulky Water-types such as Milotic and Slowbro.</p>

<p>However, if one looks past the flaws for a moment, its Mantine's advantages become clear. (Always state the subject again when starting a new paragraph) First and foremost is its typing. While it may at first seem negative detrimental, it provides an invaluable Grass neutrality to Grass, allowing it to switch into Grass-types with little fear and hit them back with STAB-boosted Hidden Power. Its Flying type also grants it immunity to Spikes and Toxic Spikes, both things feared by most other bulky Waters. Second comes its ability, Water Absorb, which regains 25% of its HP if hit by a Water-type move. This allows it to switch into predicted Water-type moves without fearing Stealth Rock. All things considered, Mantine is a sturdy special wall that, when used right, can be a great asset to balanced or defensive teams. Just keep it away from Thunderbolt. (Special should only be capitalized when as part of 'Special Attack')</p>

[SET]
name: Walling RestTalk
move 1: Rest
move 2: Sleep Talk
move 3: Surf
move 4: HP Flying / Signal Beam / Toxic
item: Leftovers
ability: Water Absorb
nature: Calm
evs: 252 HP / 40 SpA / 216 SpD

[SET COMMENTS]

<p>This set aims to capitalize on Mantine's incredible special bulk. With this spread, the damage it can take is almost unbelievable. Powerful attacks such as Timid Choice Specs Sceptile's Leaf Storm is only a 3HKO at best, taking in into consideration the Special Attack drop, as is Timid Life Orb Alakazam's Psychic. With a special-oriented set, Mantine can switch into the mainly special Grass-types of UU and hit back with STAB Hidden Power Flying. It laughs at any special Water-type without a boosting move or Taunt, even absorbing attacks from the ever-present Milotic, and any Choice-locked Pokemon on a Water, Ground, or special Fire move, such as Azumarril Azumarill. (Please check the spelling of Pokemon names if you're unsure) It can easily put a stop to Moltres, taking nothing almost no damage from everything except any uncommon Hidden Power types. Mantine can also makes make a fantastic status absorber for your team.</p>

[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

<p>There are multiple options for your fourth move. HP Flying is your main move attack, receiving STAB and hitting many Pokemon in UU hard; it has the ability to 2HKO Sceptile. Signal Beam hits the many Psychic-type Pokemon in UU super effectively, while still hitting the Grass-types. Toxic makes it Mantine better at stalling, although running Toxic and Surf together is a terrible idea, as then you are walled by several relatively common UU (Clarify why in UU this is a bad idea) Pokemon such as Toxicroak, Venusaur, and Qwilfish.</p>

<p>To work efficiently, Mantine requires Rapid Spin support, as a wall taking 25% damage to its health just by switching in is ugly. Hitmontop, Donphan and Claydol make excellent partners for this reason, both all resisting Rock and (Referring to 3 Pokemon here) with Claydol and Donphan also being immune to Electric. Which one you should use depends on your team needs and playstyle. Other good partners include high Defense Pokemon such as Aggron and Steelix, especially the latter due to its Electric-type immunity. (Explain why especially Steelix)Mantine loses to most boosting sweepers of any type, especially Calm Mind Alakazam and Swords Dance Venusaur. It Mantine cannot break Azumarril's Azumarill's Substitutes, so one should use Mantine with caution when switching into it. Lanturn also stops it Mantine cold.</p>

[SET]
name: Alternate Alternative RestTalk
move 1: Rest
move 2: Sleep Talk / Toxic
move 3: Surf
move 4: Hidden Power Flying
item: Life Orb / Leftovers
ability: Water Absorb
nature: Calm
evs: 252 HP / 240 Def / 16 SpA

[SET COMMENTS]

<p>This set attempts to take a more well-rounded approach. It is only 3HKOed by many resisted physical hits, such as Adamant Hitmontop's Close Combat, allowing more ease of switching in. It allows Mantine to counter all forms of Azumarril Azumarill, in one way or another, as HP Flying now does a minimum of 101 damage, which will always break an Azumarril's Azumarill's Substitutes. It also makes a good wall to mixed Blaziken without Thunderpunch or Stone Edge. This set puts additional pressure on stall teams. (Clarify whether Mantine is good against stall teams or good for stall teams) One should use this with caution, however, as it loses much of its massive special bulk with this set, making it less of a safe switch-in to Venusaur, Sceptile, and Alakazam.</p>

[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

<p>As far as support goes, the same can be said for both sets: Rapid Spin, Claydol, Donphan, the usual. However, its Mantine's counters change. You are now 2HKOed by Specs Sceptile's Leaf Storm, in addition to losing walling power over other threats. A plus to this set, however, is that it can switch into a Choice-locked Heracross, and with some luck against CB sets, and OHKO back with Hidden Power Flying.</p>

[Team Options]

<p>Rapid Spin support is essential to Mantine's survival. Without it, it loses a good amount of its natural bulk. As previously stated, Claydol, Donphan, and Hitmontop make good partners for this reason.</p>

<p>Mantine has problems with most forms of Mismagius, who can either zap it with Thunderbolt, boost set up in its face, or wear it out with Taunt, Will-O-Wisp and Shadow Ball. For this reason, sturdy Dark-type Pokemon such as Spiritomb and Drapion (especially the former) make excellent partners, as does Choice Scarf Rotom to an extent. The safest bet is to try to wear it down before killing it outright. Mantine should not, under any condition, switch into Mismagius to wall it.</p>

[Optional Changes]

<p>There really aren't that many. Mantine's most notable option is Signal Beam. There are plenty of Grass- and Psychic-types in UU, so if coverage is what you need, then Signal Beam should be considered, although Surf hits Psychics just as hard. Mantine also gets a few nifty options in Haze and Mirror Coat. A set involving Swift Swim is plausible, but Mantine is terrible at it, not to mention being outclassed by plenty of other Pokemon. Mantine has a plethora of physical moves, but base 40 Attack isn't getting it anywhere.</p>

[Counters]

<p>Lanturn walks all over Mantine as even Hidden Power Grass (which Mantine should not be running anyway) barely scratches him it. (Gender pronoun consistency) Other Electric-types like such as Manectric and Ampharos destroy him Mantine and are capable of taking a hit from Surf. Toxicroak and Qwilfish can set up Swords Dances on him Mantine and hit his its weak physical defense with Stone Edge or Poison Jab, respectively. Stone Edge Quagsire works well if Mantine lacks Hidden Power Grass. Mismagius absolutely destroys Mantine, no matter the set. Boosting sweepers, Calm Mind Alakazam in particular, can muscle their way past Mantine easily, as Mantine can't do much back. Really, just hit Mantine with your hardest physical moves, and it will go down rather quickly.</p>

There's quite a lot of things that need to be fixed to be honest, PM or VM me after you've updated and I will be happy to give you the stamp.

EDIT: OK stamped

 

[Flora]

GP Check 2/2:
additions/changes/comments in blue
removals in red

Hide

[Overview]

<p>Mantine's stats are the special equivalent of Skarmory's, complete with massive Special Defense. Apart from that though, everything else seems rather lackluster. Its only reliable recovery is in the move Rest. It Mantine has a 4x weakness to Electric-type attacks and a Stealth Rock weakness, not to mention poor Defense and mediocre HP, all of which hamper its ability to function as a good bulky Water. It also appears to be completely outclassed by other bulky Water-types such as Milotic and Slowbro.</p>

(added in "Mantine" to avoid repetition. i put "also" to make the sentence flow better.)

<p>However, if one looks past the flaws for a moment, Mantine's advantages become clear. First and foremost is its typing. While it may at first seem negative, it provides an invaluable neutrality to Grass, allowing it to switch into Grass-types with little fear and hit them back with STAB-boosted Hidden Power. Its Flying-type also grants it immunity to Spikes and Toxic Spikes, both things feared by most other bulky Waters which most other bulky Waters fear. Second comes its ability, Water Absorb, which regains 25% of its HP if hit by a Water-type move. This allows it to switch into predicted Water-type moves without fearing Stealth Rock. All things considered Overall, Mantine is a sturdy special wall who, when used right, can be a great asset to balanced or defensive teams. Just keep it away from Thunderbolt.</p>

(i personally really hate "thing", especially in an analysis. it's not specific enough so i advise you to avoid using "thing" in the future if you choose to write more.)

[SET]
name: Walling RestTalk
move 1: Rest
move 2: Sleep Talk
move 3: Surf
move 4: HP Flying / Signal Beam / Toxic
item: Leftovers
ability: Water Absorb
nature: Calm
evs: 252 HP / 40 SpA / 216 SpD

[SET COMMENTS]

<p>This set aims to capitalize on Mantine's incredible special bulk. With this spread, the damage it can take is almost unbelievable. Powerful attacks such as Timid Choice Specs Sceptile's Leaf Storm is only a 3HKO at best, taking into consideration the Special Attack drop, as is Timid Life Orb Alakazam's Psychic. With a special-oriented set, Mantine can switch into the mainly special Grass-types of UU and hit back with STAB Hidden Power Flying. It laughs at any special Water-type without a boosting move or Taunt, even absorbing attacks from such as the ever-present Milotic, and any Choice-locked Pokemon on a Water, Ground, or special Fire move, such as Azumarill, Dugtrio, and Moltres. It can easily put a stop to Moltres, taking almost no damage from everything except any uncommon Hidden Power types. Mantine can also make a fantastic status absorber for your team.</p>

[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

<p>There are multiple options for your fourth move. Hidden Power Flying is your main attack, receiving STAB and hitting many Pokemon in UU hard; it has the ability to 2HKO Sceptile. Signal Beam hits the many Psychic-type Pokemon in UU super effectively, while still hitting the Grass-types. Toxic makes Mantine better at stalling, although running Toxic and Surf together is a terrible idea, as then you are walled by several relatively common UU Pokemon such as Toxicroak, Venusaur, and Qwilfish, and most notably Toxicroak, who absorbs Surf with its ability, Dry Skin, and is immune to Toxic. The other two simply resist Water attacks.</p>

<p>To work efficiently, Mantine requires Rapid Spin support, as a wall taking 25% damage to its health just by switching in is ugly. Hitmontop, Donphan, (comma) and Claydol all make excellent partners for this reason (removed comma) due to Rock-type resistance all resisting with Claydol and Donphan also being immune to Electric. Which one you should use depends on your team needs and play-style. Other good partners include high Defense Pokemon such as Aggron and Steelix, especially the latter due to its Electric-type immunity. Mantine loses to most boosting sweepers of any type, especially Calm Mind Alakazam and Swords Dance Venusaur. Mantine It also cannot break Azumarill's Substitutes, so one you should use Mantine with caution when switching into it. Lanturn also stops Mantine cold.</p>

(on the "one" change, ask yourself who's "one"? could be anyone so i think it would be better off directed to the reader.)

[SET]
name: Alternate RestTalk
move 1: Rest
move 2: Sleep Talk / Toxic
move 3: Surf
move 4: Hidden Power Flying
item: Life Orb / Leftovers
ability: Water Absorb
nature: Calm
evs: 252 HP / 240 Def / 16 SpA

[SET COMMENTS]

<p>This set attempts to take a more well-rounded approach. It is only 3HKOed by many resisted physical hits, such as Adamant Hitmontop's Close Combat, allowing more ease of switching in. It allows Mantine to counter all forms of Azumarill, as HP Flying now does a minimum of 101 damage, which will always break an Azumarill's Substitutes. It also makes a good wall to mixed Blaziken without ThunderPunch or Stone Edge. This set is also good works against stall teams, as with Life Orb it becomes somewhat harder to switch into. One You should use this with caution, however, as it loses much of its massive special bulk with this set, making it less of a safe switch-in to Venusaur, Sceptile, and Alakazam.</p>

[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

<p>As far as support goes, the same can be said for both sets: Rapid Spin. However, Mantine's counters change. You are now 2HKOed by Specs Sceptile's Leaf Storm, in addition to losing walling power over other threats. A plus to this set, however, is that it can switch into a Choice Scarf-locked Heracross, with some luck against Choice Band sets, and OHKO back with Hidden Power Flying.</p>

(seems a bit short here. now that mantine is 2hkoed by leaf storm, what should i use to combat such a dangerous threat? i would also remove the mention of heracross and replace it with hitmonlee or another similar fighter since i don't think heracross is set in stone in uu. that'll probably become a 2hko.)

[Team Options]

<p>Rapid Spin support is essential to Mantine's survival. Without it, it loses a good amount of its natural bulk. As previously stated, Claydol, Donphan, and Hitmontop make good partners for this reason.</p>

<p>Mantine has problems with most forms of Mismagius, who can either zap it with Thunderbolt, set up on its face, or wear it out with Taunt, Will-O-Wisp, (comma) and Shadow Ball. For this reason, sturdy Dark-type Pokemon such as Spiritomb and Drapion (especially the former) make excellent partners, as does Choice Scarf Rotom to an extent. The safest bet is to try to wear it down before killing it outright. Mantine should not, under any condition, switch into Mismagius to wall it.</p>

[Optional Changes]

<p>There really aren't that many other moves to consider. Mantine's most notable option is Signal Beam. There are plenty of Grass- and Psychic-types in UU, so if coverage is what you need, then Signal Beam should be considered, although Surf hits Psychics just as hard. Mantine also gets a few nifty options in Haze and Mirror Coat. A set involving Swift Swim is plausible, but Mantine is terrible at it, not to mention being outclassed by plenty of other Pokemon. Mantine has a plethora of physical moves, but base 40 Attack isn't getting it anywhere.</p>

[Counters]

<p>Lanturn walks all over Mantine as even Hidden Power Grass (which Mantine should not be running anyway) barely scratches it. Other Electric-types such as Manectric and Ampharos destroy it and are capable of taking a hit from Surf. Toxicroak and Qwilfish can set up Swords Dances on Mantine and hit its weak physical defense with Stone Edge or Poison Jab, respectively. Stone Edge Quagsire works well if Mantine lacks Hidden Power Grass. Mismagius absolutely destroys Mantine, no matter the set. Boosting sweepers, Calm Mind Alakazam in particular, can muscle their way past Mantine easily, as Mantine can't do much back. Really, just hit Mantine with your hardest physical moves, and it will go down rather quickly.</p>

Fate seemed to got down most of the big errors so I'm just cleaning up. Nice job!

 

[Arcticblast]

Thanks Aromaflora. Done.

Thunderpunch is actually not supposed to have a capital P, but that's how it is on site, so I'll have to make do.

 

[Arcticblast]

Ummm... am I allowed to BUMP this to get it attention? It's done.

 

[DJXO9]

Ummm... am I allowed to BUMP this to get it attention? It's done.

PM a UU mod to have them do a final check and upload. List of such mods is here.

 

[Arcticblast]

I PMed the mods quite a while ago, and no update to the site...