Mega Stones Bonus Effects

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Thread Hijacked: This thread is now a general thread for discussion of the bonus effects of Mega Stones. That's all.

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I didn't think this would need much discussion but I guess I was wrong.

Real quick here: Back in the day megas were implemented Huge/Pure Power gave +3atk to FE and +2atk to One-Stage mons.

When Mega Mawile and Mega Medicham came around the corner, the mighty Oz made the respective megastones give additional attack in order to make said mons get twice the usual atk with a neutral nature. So if the normal atk of mega-mawile and mega-medicham were 4, the megastones were tweaked so the end result was 8. Because of how Huge/Pure Power worked, Mawilite had to give +2atk and medichamite +1atk so both got 8.

The problem is: Huge/Pure Power was later changed (dunno when dunno why) so One-Stages got +3atk like FE. This resulted on Mega Mawile getting an astouding 9atk, while Mega Medicham, arguably with worse abilities and stats and movepool, stayed at 8atk.

Also, some people feel that with sheer force and intimidate and great typing, Mega Mawile could afford a further reduction on atk to reach 7.

This topic is to discussion what to do. Should we keep Mega Mawile with 9atk? Should we reduce to the intended 8 atk? Or should we reduce it further to 7atk on the grounds that mawile already has great stats/movepool/abilities/typing to work with?
 
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Your point? Regular Medicham's attack in-game was enough to give it a rank 7 atk here when neutral. Azumarill was supposed to have a 6atk neutral. Etc.

While the information is nice and all, the effective attack in-game is kinda irrelevant to ASB balance as Huge/Pure Power work differently by design.
 
The fact that Mawile is a natural 9 ATK is an error, owing to a consistency fix made at some stage. Proof of this is in the inconsistent Mawilite item.

Mawile should sit at 8 ATK Neutral. I'm not sure why Mawilite even gets special treatment, as H.P. is a new ability on it and along M-Mawile isn't weak, but I digress.
 
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Since I was one of the biggest arguers on this one, I suppose I should get the discussion rolling. Really, there's a few main discussion points here.

1) How closely should Mega Mawile/Mega Medicham's boosted Atk stats reflect their in-game stats?

As Geodude pointed out, Mega Mawile and Mega Medicham, with Huge/Pure Power factored in, have the strongest attacking stats in the game, bar none. In ASB without any Mega Stone boosts, they are still quite high but not quite as ridiculous as they are in-game; instead they are on par with some of the other high attack Megas like Mega Gardevoir, Mega Gengar, and Mega Charizard Y. The biggest and most important decision that needs to be made here is, do we want these two to reflect their insane in-game Attack stats in ASB (this would give Mawile Rank 10 Attack according to Geodude's number, not sure if that's with a nature boost or not), or would we prefer to keep them reined in for balance reasons.

2) How should we change Medichamite, Mawilite, and/or Pure/Huge Power themselves to achieve this?

Right now Pure and Huge Power only give +3 Attack and then the Mawilite and Medichamite do the rest of the work. We could keep it like this, adjusting the Mawilite and Medichamite as necessary to achieve the desired balance. Or we could change Pure and Huge Power themselves, which would let us reflect in-game more accurately at the potential cost of fucking up balance elsewhere *cough* Azumarill *cough*.

3) Should Medicham and/or Mawile even get a boost past the basic Pure/Huge Power boost?

Originally these two were given the boost to Attack rank (presumably) because even with Pure/Huge Power their Attack stats didn't even really come close to in-game. In particular since Medicham already had Pure Power it really only got +1 Attack from the Mega Evolution. At least Mawile actually gained a noticeable Attack boost when Mega Evolving, even if he didn't reach anywhere near his in-game levels. However, Rank 7 Attack is already amazing, and the rest of Mawile's stats are quite good as well. The precedent with Megas was "if the Mega Evolution does not grant a new ability, give a boost to an old ability to compensate", and the only other two Megas that got boosts via Mega Stones were Mega Houndoom and Mega Manectric, both of whom have stats which more resemble a regular non-Mega Pokemon than a Mega Evolution. So with this in mind, Mega Medicham should likely keep some sort of boost to its Pure Power; should Mega Mawile as well?

Now for my own thoughts on these discussion points:

I personally think that having Pokemon that can naturally reach Rank 10 Attack in the metagame will not be healthy, in-game precedent be damned. Even the somewhat more tame Megas stats-wise have already warped ASB rather badly, and even before Megas any Pokemon with ranks that got much higher than 7 (looking at you, Shuckle and Steelix) already managed to be fairly strong simply because of said ridiculous ranks. With this in mind I definitely don't want to see Medicham or Mawile hitting Rank 10 Attack, and would rather keep them capped out at 8, /maybe/ 9 with +Atk.

I'm not a huge fan of using the Mega Stones to do this balancing because it means we're guaranteed to have an inconsistency regarding how we determine what gets a boost via Mega Stone (see discussion point #3). If we really feel like Mawile needs the extra rank (Medicham would be able to keep the extra rank regardless since he doesn't get a new ability and thus fits the normal criteria) then I'd rather add to Huge and Pure Power that Mega Evolutions get 4 ranks of Attack instead of 3.

Finally, the third one is the one that really irks me. Mawile gains a new ability upon Mega Evolution, and while we can sit here and argue for days how good it is compared to other Megas (I'd personally rank it as one of the best Megas available simply due to typing) the fact of the matter is it's nowhere near bad enough to deserve a boost based on that merit in the same way Manectric and Houndoom did (if it does then we're going to be boosting about half the Megas in the game because a lot of them fall between Mawile and Manectric/Houndoom on the usefulness scale). In my ideal world, Mega Medicham would get +1 Attack rank in addition to the Pure Power boost (whether that's +3 or +4 remains to be determined) and Mega Mawile would get nothing aside from the Huge Power boost (again either +3 or +4). That's how I feel about things, but I can understand that some people might be reticent to do things that way.

There, that's about everything I have to say on the matter for now. Have at it!
 
Hijacking thread to open up a discussion on Mega-Stone effects in general, especially in regards to those which have effects that go beyond "Mega Evolve this mon", and ones which don't have those sorts of effects, but should.
 
And now that this thread is about mega stones' bonus effects...

Mega Abomasnow is the exception to megas with tame BRTs warping the game. This is in part because Rare Candy on normal Aboma grants it Mega Aboma's offenses with an additional +1 to each STAB to boot.

Mega Aboma is technically superior defensively (has 100/4/4 defenses rather than 100/3/3), but it's still not exactly on par with most other megas (7 weaknesses don't help it at all). While I don't think that it deserves a different rank from Aboma proper, it's telling that in the viability thread it's ranked in D while Aboma itself is ranked in C.

I'm fond of giving its Snow Warning immunity to Taunt/Torment and then granting it an additional benefit or aura for Ice-types (such as the effects of Sturdy or Filter) in Hail.
 
Honestly, I don't see the problem with Mega Mawile and Mega Medicham getting large attack stats. This is pretty comparable to Mega Charizard (X and Y), Mega Gardevoir, Mega Garchomp, or Mega Lucario, all of which gain an ability that increases their damage output. CharX has 5/5/100 neutral offensive stats and Tough Claws, which increases the power of its already powerful Flare Blitz and co. CharY has R7 Sp. Attack and Drought, which increases the power of its STABs, as well as getting the Solar Power boost in all ability matches. Gardevoir has a gargantuan Sp. Attack as well, and Pixilate gives a boost to Hyper Voice, which is the main STAB that it's going to be spamming. Mega Lucario gets Adaptability, as well as 6/5/112 neutral offenses. While Huge/Pure Power is less situational than Tough Claws/Drought/Pixilate etc., MMedi and MMaw were built like this intentionally by Game Freak because of Mawile and Medicham's poor stats (not factoring in Pure Power).


Also, on the subject of Mega Abomasnow, the original effect that Abomasite gave was that as long as MAboma was on the field and it was hailing, Pokemon would take 4 dpa and Ice Body mons would recover 4 HPpa. Tyranitarite had a similar effect for sandstorm, but that was changed for what I hope would be obvious reasons.
 
Abomasnow: I agree that the fact that the regular Pokemon is actually better than the Mega Evolution in the case of Abomasnow is rather sad. I would support giving Mega Abomasnow's Snow Warning immunity to Taunt as well as give Mega Abomasnow the effect of Overcoat in hail as well as the infinite Snow Warning (Tort I think we got our wires crossed on the Sturdy/Overcoat thing, I meant giving M-Aboma it in hail, not all Ice types) under of the criteria of "Mega is no better than a regular Pokemon".

Mawile: The thing is though, Mega Mawile doesn't have poor stats. 90/4/5/2/3/50 is comparable to Carracosta; in exchange for 10 HP and the Sturdy/Solid Rock combination you get access to Sheer Force, Huge Power, a bit more Speed and perhaps most importantly for this discussion one of the best typings in the game in Steel/Fairy. But that's neither here or there. The thing is, while Game Freak may have made Huge Power and Pure Power ridiculously strong, we haven't. We have purposefully nerfed that ability from what it is in-game. Should it be nerfed? Maybe, maybe not, but that's not the point of this discussion. The point is, there is nothing about Mawile that suggests it deserves the extra Attack rank from Huge Power aside from misguided notion of "making it closer to what it is in-game" when it will NEVER be what it is in-game because Huge Power is not AT ALL what it is in-game. If you think that Pure and Huge Power Pokemon should reflect their in-game strength (and this doesn't just apply to Medicham and Mawile, but to ALL Huge/Pure Power Pokemon), then the correct solution isn't to buff Mega Mawile and Mega Medicham; it's to buff Huge and Pure Power.
 
Gerard made an excellent argument back when we first moved to Gen VI on why Mega Mawile/Medicham should be able to keep their attack boosts:
Gerard said:
I think you should see the stats, MMedicham gets +1 SpA, +2 Atk, +20 Spe, not gain in bulk and actually not a significant increase in damage either (5 Atk -> 7 Atk = +2.5 dmg) along (and this is the most important part) no new ability, compare to MGarchomp which gets +2 Atk, +1 Def, +2 SpA at the cost of 10 Spe with potential +2 to Ground/Rock/Steel moves, remember you can only have 10 Atk if you go + Atk, which means you either sacrifice Bulk, Speed or (more likely) SpA which means that you end up with a mon with subpar bulk (90/3/3) and with two abilities, rank 7 Atk is nothing special when Mega and you're better with other alternatives

MMawile is actually the biggest winner here since she has 4 abilities but her bulk is still only ok (good defense along Intimidate but 90/3 SpD is not gonna make her any favors) and again she forfeits any chance to go mixed if she goes +Atk (and she really needs the boost since otherwise her stats are awful for a mega with 90/6/5/2/3/xx compared to something like Scizor's 100/6/5/3/4/xx or Lucario's 100/6/3/5/3/115 it's severely outclassed on the roll (and it's unfair she misses on the Atk boost only for the wording of the ability), also remember, rank 10 Atk is +3/+4 BP respectively, which is in like with gaining an ability akin to Though Claws (compare to Houndoom and Manectric and they get a similar boost)
Click to expand...
 
The thing is though, Mawile already has a boosting ability on par with Tough Claws; it's called Sheer Force. That argument was also when Huge Power only gave +2 Attack ranks to Mawile for some dumb reason and not +3. So now it's 90/7/5/2/3/50 with Sheer Force compared to Scizor's 100/6/5/3/4/something or Lucario's 100/6/3/5/3/115. I agree that Medicham should get a boost, because it gets no boosting ability and no new ability when it Mega Evolves, but Mawile gets a new ability upon Mega Evolving and already has Sheer Force that gives it +2 on its two main STABs.

You won't win me over any time soon by trying to convince me Mawile is too weak and needs the Mawilite buff to be competitive. If you really want Mawile to hit ridiculous Attack numbers, try to convince me that Huge/Pure Power should be closer to their in-game versions and not a flat +3 Attack. THAT I might be willing to agree with (although I still don't like the idea of Rank 10 Attack Mawile/Medicham running around).
 
(so I just found out that 259 Atk Mega Mawile is a lie; with 31 IVs and no EVs Mega Medicham and Mawile have an effective 218 and 228 Atk respectively, which doesn't really matter here since 218 still crosses the R10 threshold)


Well actually, FE Huge/Pure Power users' Attack stats in ASB are actually pretty in line with in-game effective stats (without EVs), aside from the Mega Pokemon we're discussing in this thread.

Azumarill: Effective 118 Atk in-game, R5 Atk in ASB
Diggersby: Effective 130 Atk in-game, R5 Atk in ASB
Medicham: Effective 138 Atk in-game, R5 Atk in ASB
 
Geodude6 said:
(so I just found out that 259 Atk Mega Mawile is a lie; with 31 IVs and no EVs Mega Medicham and Mawile have an effective 218 and 228 Atk respectively, which doesn't really matter here since 218 still crosses the R10 threshold)


Well actually, FE Huge/Pure Power users' Attack stats in ASB are actually pretty in line with in-game effective stats (without EVs), aside from the Mega Pokemon we're discussing in this thread.

Azumarill: Effective 118 Atk in-game, R5 Atk in ASB
Diggersby: Effective 130 Atk in-game, R5 Atk in ASB
Medicham: Effective 138 Atk in-game, R5 Atk in ASB
Click to expand...
The effective stats are usually calculated with EVs and sometimes natures.
 
Flamestrike said:
Abomasnow: I agree that the fact that the regular Pokemon is actually better than the Mega Evolution in the case of Abomasnow is rather sad. I would support giving Mega Abomasnow's Snow Warning immunity to Taunt as well as give Mega Abomasnow the effect of Overcoat in hail as well as the infinite Snow Warning (Tort I think we got our wires crossed on the Sturdy/Overcoat thing, I meant giving M-Aboma it in hail, not all Ice types) under of the criteria of "Mega is no better than a regular Pokemon".
Click to expand...

I know we only talked about M-Abomasnow being the only one to have it, but it was just another idea I had. Sturdy/Overcoat/Filter in hail would probably be the more conservative/appropriate direction; I was just thinking about the team support potential in multiples.
 
Tort: or how about super hail, which was what effect Abomasite originally gave.

Flame: The difference between MMaw with Sheer Force and CharX with Tough Claws is that CharX had 15 BAP Flare Blitz (pre-nerf, I can't recall the nerfed formula and I can't look for it because I'm on my DS but I think FB has 13 BAP post-nerf) and that's before factoring in Tough Claws, whereas Mawile's strongest STAB is Play Rough, which even after Sheer Force is only 11 BAP. CharY has R7 SpA and an equally strong STAB in Fire Blast, but also with sun, Solar Power, and possible Blaze on top of that. Mega Gardevoir has a 12 BAP spread STAB (Hyper Voice) and 17 BAP STAB Hyper Beam. Mega Pinsir is in a similar boat, but with STAB priority on its main attacking stat. Et cetera.

(and yes, I really did take the time to type this out on a DS)
 
Geodude6: 11 BAP STAB move from base 8 Atk with no recoil >>>>>>> 15 BAP STAB move from base 5 Atk with 33% recoil. Pixilate gives a +2 boost, not a+3 boost, meaning that Gardevoir's Hyper Voice is only 11 BAP, equal to Mawile's Play Rough, while having difficulty with Soundproof mons (See SiC(K) Pwnemon vs Gerard). And Hyper Beam has other problems, namely Sluggish. Charizard-Y has a bad defensive typing (featuring a super common 4x weak!), unlike Mawile's great defensive typing.

As for Abomasnow, I say we give it super hail. Maybe it can't be overridden?
 
Just fix what needs to be fixed (Mawilite / Medichamite so that the Megas have Rank 8 Attack normally apparently) and be done with this until ORAS time imo. I see no real reason to change anything else; even Abomasite is fine as it is.
 
I agree with IAR. 5/4/5/4/30 are good stats. Much better than what manectric or houndoom have (3/3/5/3/fast). Also, Hail is a convenient thing.

The problem is more rare candy aboma being good than mega aboma being bad. And much of it is simply underrating.

If you really want to boost something, then consider a boost to hail to 2.5 or 3. The problem is that you would need to do the same to sand, and mega ttar surely doesn't need it.

As for the HP/PP mons, just put them at 8 as intended.
 
I wouldn't mind waiting until ORAS to see about Abomasnow, since we'll need to deal with the new Mega Stones anyway. I still would rather not have Mawilite give a boost, and would like to see Medichamite give a boost to make up for Medicham's lack of an extra ability. Here's what I propose.

A) Leave Pure/Huge Power as they are, remove all Attack ranks from Mawilite and give Medichamite the +1 Attack rank to make up for the lack of an ability.

B) Make Pure/Huge Power give +4 Attack to Mega Evolutions, remove all Attack ranks from Mawilite and give Medichamite either the +1 Attack rank or some other ability booster (the fact that Medicham's only other ability is Telepathy makes this a touch difficult, but eh)

I feel like Medicham should have some buff above and beyond Mawile since it doesn't get a new ability and Mawile does, and I'd rather not have Mawile's Mega Stone be giving a boost when it gains a new ability and doesn't really need the boost stat-wise.
 
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