Metagame Metagame Discussion Thread

Kipkluif

Liever Kips leverworst
is a Tiering Contributor
Scraggy and Sticky Web have been banned! Allow me to speculate about what this means for the meta, as we don't know for sure, but that doesn't stop my mind from wandering.

:staryu: Staryu is no longer as unreliable as a Rapid Spinner. Sure, it can still be spinblocked by Pumpkaboo and Frillish; however, other hazards don't warp games quite as hard, and these threats now fail to be faster than Staryu, and are easier to break through with Ice Beam and Thunderbolt, respectively.

:grookey: Grookey is a weird case. It had a great matchup against most Sticky Web teams, and it loses that good matchup. On the other hand, Grookey doesn't mind it's speed not being cut, and it definitely doesn't mind not having to deal with Scraggy through Life Orb + Fake Out, allowing it to run more generally threatening sets.

:natu: Natu has lost the Sticky Web it hoped to bounce, as well as it's old screens partner in crime Scraggy. I don't expect it to be very relevant anymore.

:dewpider: It should go without saying that this mon is pretty bad without Sticky Web.

Feel free to laugh at me in ~a month when meta has evolved into a way novody forsaw
 

KSG

your favorite player's favorite player
is a Tiering Contributor
So is Cutiefly gonna stay banned, now that both webs and baton pass are gone? Or is it too dangerous at with draining kiss and quiver dance?
Its still got a ridiculous amount of support options, but it doesn't have that much offensive presence even at +1.
Cutiefly is still pretty menacing with Quiver Dance alone; this set was probably what most pushed it over the edge when we banned it before. There's a chance that Cutie could be right on the verge of healthy (and its presence would probably balance Scraggy too) but I'm skeptical that the meta can actually handle it. Worth looking into down the line imo, we will probably get the chance if we unban everything after the DPP remakes release.
 
Cutiefly would help balance out timburr, mienfoo, as well as grookey. On the other hand ferroseed would be a check, plus basically any fire type or scarfer now that webs won't slow them down. I think it would be good for the metagame, but let's see if this current post-scraggy and webs meta is stable

Edit:
I played a bunch of LC Ubers and realised while we could do with Cutiefly it would put unnecessary constraints on the meta and in the builder, just keep it banned.
 
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Cutiefly would help balance out timburr, mienfoo, as well as grookey. On the other hand ferroseed would be a check, plus basically any fire type or scarfer now that webs won't slow them down. I think it would be good for the metagame, but let's see if this current post-scraggy and webs meta is stable
19 Speed + Quiver Dance means Cutiefly can become faster than any Scarfer after one turn of setup; it also resists Mach Punch and Grassy Glide. On top of that it gets U-turn, which makes it very easy to bring in Diglett (or Trapinch unless u-turn larvesta (larvesta isnt good tho)) to trap those Fire-type checks and pick off weakened Ferroseed.

Timburr, Mienfoo, and Grookey aren't currently regarded as broken, so it isn't really necessary to introduce a new check to them, particularly since needing to check Cutiefly would become extremely difficult and give you less room to check everything else in the meta right now.
 
19 Speed + Quiver Dance means Cutiefly can become faster than any Scarfer after one turn of setup; it also resists Mach Punch and Grassy Glide. On top of that it gets U-turn, which makes it very easy to bring in Diglett (or Trapinch unless u-turn larvesta (larvesta isnt good tho)) to trap those Fire-type checks and pick off weakened Ferroseed.

Timburr, Mienfoo, and Grookey aren't currently regarded as broken, so it isn't really necessary to introduce a new check to them, particularly since needing to check Cutiefly would become extremely difficult and give you less room to check everything else in the meta right now.
Not only that when put with an eviolite it can be a good tank against them as well. A simple bug buzz can destroy Grookey and a moonblast for Timburr and Mienfoo. Or you can equip a focus sash for anything that maybe check Cutiefly. It isn't too much to work around with becasue you can use Cutiefly from anything to sweep or utility.
 
Good points, I think if we did unban it we'd have to suspect it immediately. It could be unbanned, but it wouldn't last.
 

Nineage

Pugnacious.
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It sounds like this meta is anticipated to be pretty temporary given the incoming new additions from BDSP and associated tiering changes. That said, I actually really like the way the post-ban meta is shaping up. In SCL and, to a lesser extent, LPL, I've seen some solid-looking teams that (imo) don't depend nearly as much on matchups as teams in the Vullaby or Scraggy/Webs era.

I wanted to highlight a certain team construction that I saw pretty regularly in SCL week 1 - teams built around Fighting/Poison/Steel/Water cores. Here's a few examples:
:mienfoo: :koffing: :pawniard: :staryu: :grookey: :ponyta-galar: (lily)
:mienfoo: :koffing: :pawniard: :staryu: :grookey: :ponyta-galar: (laroxyl)
:mienfoo: :foongus: :pawniard: :frillish: :mudbray: :abra: (dcae)
:mienfoo: :koffing: :pawniard: :staryu: :grookey: :mudbray: (dvs)
:mienfoo: :koffing: :ferroseed: :staryu: :magnemite: :diglett: (ksg)
:mienfoo: :koffing: :pawniard: :staryu: :natu: :mudbray: (bouli)
:mienfoo: :foongus: :pawniard: :staryu: :grookey: :ponyta: (kythr)
:timburr: :koffing: :ferroseed: :staryu: :grookey: :slowpoke: (wail)
(Toadow's team technically also fits this mold with Mienfoo/Foongus/Pawniard/Shellder but I've chosen not to list it because I think his team is designed to operate differently.)

I think this backbone is emerging because it allows for essentially the entire metagame to be dealt with in 4 slots, allowing for flexibility and creativity in the last two slots. This leads to relatively straightforward matchups, where the final two Pokemon will typically aim to pressure members of the opposing team's four-Pokemon core. For example, on Lily/Laroxyl's teams (the first two listed), Grookey combines with Mienfoo to pressure the opponent's Poison type, while Ponyta-Galar pressures the Steel type until one can potentially break through. Matchup advantages are still relevant, but it still feels very possible to build an all-around solid and creative team.

In general, these archetypes seem easy to build as well. You can start with a Pokemon or two that pressure the Fighting/Poison/Steel/Water cores. Psychic types are a very popular option since their most common check (Steel types) are often worn down by coverage moves. Mystical Fire Ponyta-G, Fire Punch/Submission Abra, and even Natu and Slowpoke appear as options here. Grookey is a constant option due to its ability to wear down Poison types - many teams seem to be running only 1 Grookey check, so it can end up with good options in the endgame. Mudbray also remains good since Ground resists (barring the frail Grookey) are rare. After choosing this two-Pokemon core, you can add Mienfoo, Pawn, Staryu, and a Poison type (likely Koffing unless Foongus' grass typing helps your water matchup). I'm hopeful that newer players can emulate this and end up building some solid teams that encourage them to continue playing in LC.

What's Next?
Hyper offense, including spikes-stacking and sun, will likely re-emerge to gain good matchups against these cores. I expect them to be good, but less relevant than in the past few metagames. That's because it looks substantially easier to build a team that matches up well against both these HO teams and more "standard" teams. Of course, the lack of Scraggy and Webs is an important factor here as well - as has been argued elsewhere, archetypes like spikes and sun struggle much more to deal with common water types like Staryu and Frillish.

Tl;dr it's still early but I think this meta shows a lot of promise. It already has some established backbones while leaving a few slots open on each team for creativity. I'm excited to see how this continues to develop.
 
Wesh.

I would like to start a discussion about the current metagame, seeing how many people dislike it but noone taking the time to talk about it.
So I'll start by giving my opinion, hoping some of you will follow, agreeing or not with me, the goal being to make everyone share their through, which could possibly lead to a change. I know the new games are coming, but keeping a tier "disgusting" would make it not enjoyable for some futur tours ( LCPL/LPL/LCWcup... ), and would be less attractive for some new comers.

First thing first, what I'm about to say will be MY OPINION. As I said earlier, I just want to start something, I don't pretend to have the absolute truth or anything. I'm gonna split my post in 2 major parts, the problems, and the possible solutions.

The problems :

- HO : HO recently started to show itself as a more then viable option, not to say a very strong option. It can be explained by some factors. The fact that the metagame was kind of weak to HO when it started to appear. Natu being a very strong screen user. Diglett being able to trap+memento, allowing an easy set-up. Zigzagoon being unstoppable if you aren't prep to it.
Those are the factors that came in my mind. There could be some others, but I think those are the most important.
In fact, it isn't that hard to be prep against HO, I mean by that, a lot of solutions exist. Keep in mind that this point will be linked with the second one.

- Coinflip : The word is probably not the best I could've choosed, but I could not think about an other one. By coinflip, I mean two things. The match-up and ingame. I'll start by the match-up, being the one linked to the HO part. I feels like, in the current meta, being prep to HO need too much things on a team. If you're prep to HO, you'll be very more weak to some other threat. You'll tell me, it's logic, if you prep against a playstyle, you've to be more weak to an other. But there, you're becoming too weak to big threats, such as Ponyta-Galar, Porygon and co. Sometimes, I'll even say a lot of times, your game will be a 80-20/20-80 at the match-up, due to this.
When it comes to ingame, the major problem is the high number of situations where you HAVE to play a tie, or where winning a tie makes you in a very good situation. For the exemple, leading Mienfoo vs Mienfoo, winning the tie gives you a very big advantage, so both part generally want to play it. But this point is related to my last point, which is :

- The lack of versatibility : Here's, in my opinion, the major problem. The metagame is VERY, VERY restrictive. At the moment, every team need to have a kind of similar structure. But the number of pokemon who can makes the jobs that a "classic team" need is limited. So you're having a fight ( 95% of the time Mienfoo, sometimes Timburr ), a poison ( koffing/foongus/mareanie ), a water ( staryu, frilish, mareanie ) and a steel ( pawniard/ferro ), and then roll with two others mons, depending of what you're targeting. If you prep to HO, your two others slot will help against it, but you'll have difficulty against some spA users, such as Pory + Natu or trapper, or Abra + trapper. If you prep to some spA spam, such as like, Abra + trapper, Pory + Natu ect, you'll be more weak to some things such as double fight, or some set-up sweepers such as Tyrunt or Carvanha. I will not continue, I think you all understand what I meant there !
To come back with the second point, and why was it linked with this one, the number of mons being low, and the speedtiers being what he's, you've to play your mons full speed. Which makes you play the ties, because you know in advance that it will be a tie. If you don't play it, you can put yourself in a bad situation. If you play it, you've 50% to put yourself in a very good situation, and 50% to put yourself at a disadvantage that can be very hard, and sometimes impossible, to cover.


The possible solutions :

I'll make those ones from the "most logical change" to the "less logical change", again, in my opinion.

- Ban Light Clay : Banning Light Clay could be a good start. Nerfing HO without making it unplayable, probably putting it as a "possibly good cheese depending of the opponent", without being a main threat. It would also reduce the number of archetype you've to be absolutly prep to, which would help to use less played mons who could be adapted to the metagame.

- Ban Arena Trap : This one is probably the most "metagame changer". Banning Arena Trap would makes a LOT of changes, nerfing some things ( spA + trapper, Diglett memento trap + set-up for some exemple ), boosting some others ( Abra not trapable could become unstoppable, Ponyta becoming even more dangerous, Ferroseed becoming more hard to low, unable to Final Gambit trap a Staryu for your own water or your Pony.. ). So, probably the less predictable, but still a possibility.

- Returning to the Vullaby metagame : Talking with Boulicrok, which helped me to make this post even if they disagree with some points, we figured that unbanning Vullaby while keeping Sticky/Scraggy banned would be stupid. Those two got banned due to the result of what became the metagame after Vulla's ban, so I'll not talk about "unbanning Vulla", but about "can we and should we come back to this meta". Which one is the worst ?

- Unbanning some things to test : Boulicrok spoke about unbanning Rufflet, so there we're. I, myself, don't know what could be unbanned, everything being strong. BUT, since the actual metagame is already disgusting, let's try some things ?


------------

Thanks to boulicrok for his/her help ( nop, still not yovan33321 ) with the redaction. Also thanks to CMDoge Sciroccoo who helped me to "list what was wrong in my head" with the tier.

Waiting for your own opinion yall !

Edit and PS : Sorry for the possible average english, don't forget that I'm a baguette.
 
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now that scl is wrapping up it is time to start thinking about changes to the meta. First, as a retrospective on the current meta, I think that this is far and away one of the worst metas that lc has ever seen. Alkione covered the reasons well, but I think that the issue of speed tie 50/50s is above all the others: I personally can't remember the last game I had where some bullshit speed tie didn't radically alter the momentum of the game. The 17 speed tier is far too congested, and each of its members is so good at gaining momentum on switches that not going for speed ties puts you at a massive disadvantage. I don't think I need to elaborate on my woes much further, as this meta is almost universally hated, especially among scl players.

I think we can go one of two directions here from here, recognizing that the current situation is untenable (I personally will not be playing a single game of this gen except for circuit playoffs if this doesn't improve).

1. Go after the most dominant pokemon in the current meta, going for a lower power level than previous metas. Alkione suggested banning light clay, and while this is one step we'll definitely have to take at some point it will only solve the cheese issue without addressing the agony that is balance vs balance. I don't think that any of the balance pokemon are traditionally broken (except maybe mienfoo), but their combination at the 17 speed tier and their dominance over the meta is incredibly toxic. I think that Mienfoo should probably be at the top of our list if we take this option, and then we can go from there. I don't think that the arena trap option that Alkione suggested would solve much of anything, as the problem is at the 17 speed tier.

2. Unban Vullaby, essentially reset to the mid LCPL meta. This is the option that I would personally prefer, as I always disagreed with the Vullaby ban. The difficulty of using and countering Vullaby properly raised the skill cap on the game significantly, and it kept a lot of alternate playstyles like Webs in balance. I agree with alkione that we should probably unban webs if we free vull, as it was perfectly balanced in that meta. We can look at other options to the dominance of Porygon + Vullaby in that meta (potentially banning Porygon), but even the complaints around that archetypes are nowhere near the problems we have in this meta.

We can also take both options, going further into bans and if it doesn't work out going back to the Vullaby meta. I don't really care, as long as we can play something—anything—else.
 

ACNT

formerly Aconit
Very good post Alkione, I will focus on the second part of the post, I agree with the rest. I don't claim to be an amazing player or to have the absolute truth too, but I will give my opinion on the proposed solutions.

First, I think that banning Light Clay is not a good idea, simply because it's not enough. Banning Light Clay does make it harder to sweep in the long run, but the most important thing is the initial set-up. 5 turns is more than enough to set up easily, the extra 3 turns can prolong the pressure on the opponent, but in my opinion it is not as decisive as that in the recent success of HO. Especially since the Light Clay could be replaced by items like Eviolite. I also have big doubts about a Vullaby unban simply because I think it would be even better in the current metagame. For me, the regulation it would bring to Hazard Control would not compensate for the raw power of the Nasty Plot set. Rufflet, in my opinion, would only further unbalance the metagame. You would have to be able to justify why Rufflet is currently less dangerous in the current metagame, and I don't think there is any argument for that. The Rufflet metagame is one of the worst I've seen since I've been playing LC: the game was often decided by a tie between two scarf rufflet, or missing Brave Bird. I wish I had Boulicrok's reasoning. On the other hand, the Arena Trap ban is an interesting idea, which has been discussed at length in previous generations, and I personally am not opposed to it.

The problem is multiple: on the one hand, it has never been easier to keep hazards on the field. I've talked to Toadow about this quite a bit and we were pretty much in agreement that spikes are extremely powerful in this metagame. Defog is very rarely played simply because the only really viable defog is Timburr, but in a metagame where foo is so powerful, it rarely fits in a team. Staryu is a good spinner, but remains quite fragile, and Natu does not offer a safe hazard control.

Second problem, which is the corollary of the first one: Zigzagoon.
Zigzagoon has never been so strong in the recent history of LC. First, because we don't have any fast ghosts since the Gastly ban. Secondly, because Onix no longer exists. Third, because hazard control has never been so difficult to achieve. Zigzagoon OHKOs almost all the metagame after SR and there is almost no counterplay. Just mention the fast versions of Frillish, Tyrunt and Sash Abra. That's about it. Pawniard and Ferroseed can often be forced through, particularly because they have no viable way to heal themselves and are extremely crippled by hazards. Also, it is extremely easy to force their arrival on the field in many match-ups. Plus it is very easy to set-up a belly drum. The fact that a lot of ghost pokémon considered very questionable until recently are starting to be played regularly in Hyper Offense is not a good sign (Sinistea, Sandygast...). A lot of teams revolve around Zigzagoon, even if it means playing extremely specialized mons, and my opinion is that banning it would be a huge nerf for HO that would be welcome.

However, I'm not sure that Zigzagoon is a broken pokémon. On the other hand, it's a pokémon that doesn't seem very healthy for the metagame at the moment. It is extremely easy to play and punishes most balanced teams effortlessly. I think a suspect might be, at the very least, a good idea.
Zigzagoon is obviously not the only problem. But it seems to me that it is currently severely limiting the build, and simply lowering the skill cap of the tier.
 
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Corporal Levi

ninjadog of the decade
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My preference is that we get Zigzagoon and maybe screens out of the way first. This probably won't be enough to fix the meta on its own, but we can look at banning Mienfoo or something else more impactful to "standard" archetypes afterwards.

I think reverting to the Vullaby meta is by far the worst option. This is a transition metagame after a huge ban on par with a new gen. These metas are usually awful, often across several follow-up bans, and this meta is probably at least better than some of the crazy stuff that happened early in XY - my issue is less that this metagame was terrible, and more that we had to endure it for months. It seems really short-sighted to revert a big ban just because the immediately following metagame (not counting scraggy/webs) is really bad, too. It would have sucked if we reverted the Tangela + Yanma bans in XY because the immediately following metagame of Gligar/Murkrow/Misdreavus/Meditite/Swirlix was worse, or if we theoretically reverted the SS Corsola-G ban because a following Gastly metagame was worse for example.

This is not to mention that the Vullaby metagame was itself a pretty poor metagame by most metrics - it wasn't diverse at all, and it was also imbalanced in the sense of being overcentralized. The "advantages" of the vull meta can be almost completely attributed to its disproportionate strength vs everything else, and these advantages could pretty much be met by adding any broken mon, except for the comfort of familiarity which obviously isn't something we should be tiering for. I understand that a small minority of users are still convinced that it wasn't broken, but it did receive 70% of the vote (and of the remaining 30%, I understand that not every user voted DNB on the belief that it wasn't broken), so for the purpose of discussion I think it's safe for us to just treat it as if it were broken.

For similar reasons I'm not a fan of unbanning Rufflet, either. While compared to Vullaby it was the less viable (but still top tier) mon during early SS, when both Vullaby and Rufflet existed, it was still pretty broken, and re-introducing a Hustle mon for the sake of balance leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

---

Zigzagoon is pretty crazy right now for reasons that I think have been described well above. Even if there's an argument that it's not too broken/overcentralizing in the traditional sense, the way it autowins without agency if you lack some iffy counterplay lends an argument that it could be banworthy in terms of uncompetitiveness too, similarly to how we banned apix early in the gen. Either way, it's a matchup fish by nature to a degree that's well beyond even other setup sweepers like smashers and shellos, so I wouldn't be too upset about losing it.

I agree with aconit that banning screens alone (whether Light Clay, Natu, or the moves) doesn't actually cover much, since Zigzagoon is perfectly ridiculous without it. I do however think that it could be a pretty low cost/impact ban to tag on purely on the grounds of uncompetitiveness. One thing is that we never actually tested SS Scraggy in a meta that wasn't dominated by webs/screens. If we could get rid of both of its best support tools, then there is a good chance that it might actually turn out balanced (it would still be better than it was in XY/SM, but it was like B tier in those). This would help a lot in addressing 17 spe ties at least, since there would be an immediate alternative for an offensive fighter, and it would also make Timburr/slowfoo very justifiable again; to a lesser extent it might even help with 19 spe ties, since Pony-K struggles more against Timburr's bulk and Abra is forced to run gleam for Scraggy.

It wasn't brought up in this thread but I've also seen mentions of banning Grookey on the grounds that its meta influence could be why Zigzagoon is so good. This is probably true - Grookey demolishes a lot of the slower teams that would naturally carry multiple Zigzagoon answers in previous gens, and also makes Rock-types a lot harder to use - but Grookey isn't broken right now, and on those grounds I think it would make more sense to just target Zigzagoon instead.

---

We did catch a glimpse of what a post-Zigzagoon metagame might look like early on in snake, and if it was accurate then we can expect Mienfoo to be very strong.

The thought of banning Mienfoo makes me sick because we would have to re-draw every LC banner ever, but I don't think the idea of it being broken is actually all that ridiculous when it's consistently been at or near the top for over a decade. I'm confident that the way the BW metagame is forced to centralize around its absurd strengths is the root cause of the diversity issues we're seeing there, and even in XY which has Fletchling and Gothita, it remains far and away the best mon. It took a mon as absurd as Weak Armor Vullaby in SM to knock it off its throne.

Without other top tier fighters like Timburr to compete with it, Mienfoo was seeing usage on something like 90% of teams. If it stays that way, banning Mienfoo would be an interesting experiment since we've never ended a gen with an evio metagame without S tier Mienfoo unless you count lower LC tiers.
 
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Hello everyone! I want to briefly talk about Beat Up, everyone's favorite move that no one seems to actually know how it works. I'm going to break down the mechanics of the move and provide a handy chart of base powers and damage rolls for viable Pokemon.

Beat Up hits the opposing Pokemon one time for each Pokemon on the user's side that is alive and not afflicted by a major status condition (Poison, Paralysis, Burn, Sleep). The base power of each Pokemon's hit is determined by the Pokemon's base Attack stat, by the formula (Base Attack/10)+5, rounded down. For example, a hit corresponding to Mienfoo has the base power (85/10)+5=13.5, rounded down to 13. This information was sourced from the Bulbapedia Article on Beat Up. On Showdown, Beat Up hits applied in party order, with the exception of the Beat Up user, who hits first. (I cannot vouch if this is cartridge accurate or not.)

I've included a chart of base powers for viable Pokemon's Beat Up hits below. I've also included damage rolls for Beat Up Diglett vs Abra, 14 Def itemless Natu, and Diglett, with Life Orb rolls in parentheses. (For Eviolite Natu, every hit does 2 damage, 3 with a Life Orb.) I've also included a chart of possible max rolls. Hope this is helpful!
Base PowerPokemonDamage vs AbraDamage vs itemless NatuDamage vs Diglett
7:abra: :cottonee: :wynaut:4 (5)2 (3)1 (1)
8:bunnelby: :chinchou: :magnemite: :wingull:4 (5)2 (3)2 (3)
9:frillish: :onix: :shellos: :sinistea: :staryu: :venipede: :vulpix:4 (5)2 (3)2 (3)
10:amaura: :charmander: :diglett: :ferroseed: :foongus: :mareanie: :natu: :spritzee:4 (5)2 (3)2 (3)
11:croagunk: :dwebble: :elekid: :grookey: :koffing: :porygon: :shellder: :slowpoke: :snover:4 (5)2 (3)2 (3)
12:golett: :magby: :sandshrew-alola:4 (5)4 (5)2 (3)
13:drilbur: :larvesta: :mienfoo: :munchlax: :pawniard: :ponyta: :ponyta-galar: :timburr: :tyrunt:4 (5)4 (5)2 (3)
14:carvanha: :farfetchd-galar:6 (8)4 (5)2 (3)
15:mudbray: :trapinch:6 (8)4 (5)3 (4)
16:archen:6 (8)4 (5)3 (4)
This chart is a list of max rolls for each regular damage roll:
12 (3 if Life Orb)
23
35 (4 vs Diglett)
46 (5 vs Diglett)
58
68
810
 
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if you've been following the little cup metagame for the past few tournaments, you probably have noticed that psychics are fucking broken on almost every single team, maybe even two or the three good psychics paired together. so i know i'm not much of a poster, but today i wanna talk about a pokemon that i think is quite really good and its under the radar for most of the playerbase: :stunky: :stunky:
so yeah sure you might think a dark type wins vs psychic types, nothing new, but doesnt stunky not do much offensively right? and if it's defensive it will just be trap food or whatever. well that'd be wrong, and here's why:
Daunt (Stunky) (M) @ Life Orb
Ability: Aftermath/Stench
Level: 5
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 12 HP / 252 Atk / 244 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Play Rough
- Crunch
- Sucker Punch
- Flamethrower/Fire Blast
this set makes a great psychic switch (it isn't weak to anything they run usually, and it's obviously immune to their stab) and grassy glide resist into an offensive breaker. here are some great calcs, which i'll explainlater:
252 Atk Life Orb Stunky Play Rough vs. 0 HP / 196 Def Mienfoo: 21-26 (100 - 123.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Life Orb Stunky Sucker Punch vs. 36 HP / 0 Def Diglett: 17-21 (94.4 - 116.6%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO (guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock)
252 Atk Life Orb Stunky Crunch vs. 76 HP / 76 Def Eviolite Trapinch (spdf pinch): 9-13 (40.9 - 59%) -- 88.7% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Stunky Crunch vs. 0 HP / 156 Def Koffing: 9-13 (45 - 65%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Stunky Crunch vs. 116 HP / 180+ Def Mareanie: 12-16 (52.1 - 69.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Stunky Crunch vs. 124 HP / 156+ Def Foongus: 13-17 (52 - 68%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Stunky Sucker Punch vs. 84 HP / 32 Def Porygon: 12-16 (50 - 66.6%) --kills it after a koffing sludge bomb i guess, it picks it off
252 Atk Life Orb Stunky Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Ponyta: 13-17 (61.9 - 80.9%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
0 SpA Life Orb Stunky Fire Blast vs. 84 HP / 148+ SpD Eviolite Ferroseed: 21-26 (95.4 - 118.1%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
0 SpA Life Orb Stunky Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 196+ SpD Eviolite Pawniard: 13-16 (61.9 - 76.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
so yeah, in conclusion, this thing is capable of 2hkoing almost every relevant mon if you predict right. it even ohkoes mienfoo god, and it can't be trapped by evioless diglett or a switching trapinch because they'll just die. it obviously has flaws, like staryu being semi reliable against it, being trapped by evio dig and 100% trapinch or other grounds being semi reliable against it, but it being a psychic check this capable of wrecking havoc i think just justifies using it in so many more teams than it's used already (zero if you don't count mine).
here is a team i think that uses it to its strengths and is quite solid imo, and below are some replays that show how useful it can really be:
My w5 lcwc match vs expulso
1641833354219.png
even tho there are two grounds in expulsos team and in the end i lost because i got lucked, stunky already showed some of its power. it forced out a 100% mienfoo, made natu afraid of roosting so it clicked u turn (which i really took advantage of), and (sadly) had i killed ferro with it instead of with staryu, it would've killed the life orb diglett with sucker punch, allowing my staryu to just win should hydro pump hit the onix. this wasn't even the best match for it and it already made me gain momentum

Juan's w5 lcwc match vs ksg
1641833572344.png
showed how truly devastating stunky can really be. it does 2hko or even ohko every pokémon on ksg's team, which has a very standard structure, and can even switch in on abra and on foongus if another mon is already asleep. in the match, it does what it does best: forces mienfoo out, breaks stuff with crunch, switches into abra turning that into a kill and even sucker punches porygon, while the trapinch was unable to actually trap it. granted, juan's team was very unorthodox (because i forced him to replace koffing with stunky just to show it lol) but stunky did what it does best.

in conclusion, stunky is a great pokémon that takes advantage of metagame trends, capable of turning its defensive capabilities into offensive power, and should be considered for many more teams, because it's awesome
 

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ACNT

formerly Aconit
Hi. Since Pokemon Legends Arceus is coming and digging through the datamine is a bit boring, I'm doing a little recap post for the already known pokemons that get a movepool upgrade with LGA. Don't worry, everything is under spoiler:

:vulpix: : Nasty Plot
:vulpix-alola: : Nasty Plot
:turtwig: : Sleep Powder, Leaf Blade
:happiny: : Soft-Boiled, Calm Mind
:finneon: : Roost, Air Slash
:mantyke: : Roost
:rufflet:: Quick Attack
:duskull:: Leech Life
:rowlet:: Psycho Cut
:piplup: : Roost, Liquidation
:cherubi:: Sleep Powder
:petilil:: Recover
:cleffa:: Calm Mind / Moonblast
:drifloon: : Mystical Fire
:ralts: : Ice Beam
:bonsly: : Head Smash
:stunky: : Poison Jab
:riolu:: Close Combat
:scyther: : Close Combat
:aipom: : Quick Attack
:machop: : Mach Punch
:croagunk: : Close Combat, Earth Power
 

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