Format Discussion Metronome Battle

[Rarycaris]

About the precise point of the BST cutoff, I think 710 is a good spot for it. Most things around that tier have better offensive than defensive stats, especially once the 700BST megas like Garchomp, Tyranitar and Diancie are considered. With that in mind, I think allowing the use of Zygarde-C would be a decent defensive counterweight, and I wouldn't be too worried about it being dominant given that Pixilate Diancie-M and Refrigerate Kyurem forms are likely to be viable options. (For the same reason, I don't think Giratina alone is likely to hold defensive archetypes together; its dragon typing is too much of a liability.)

720, on the other hand, means that we're likely to see a *lot* of teams which are just two Arceuses, and I don't think it would add anything on terms of type diversity because nearly every type is well represented at 710 anyway. (The only ones I can think of which are missing within 40 points of that cutoff are Grass and Bug, and Grass is likely to be covered by Calyrex.)

 

[bonk]

bonk, I just ran some tests on my custom server to see how your friend guard eviolite team matched up against the 2 most common archetypes in metronome battles: Band Intrepid Mega Heracross and Simple Flower Veil Mega Venusaur.

hera won 2773 / 5000 battles against bulk [this took 414.635757 seconds] (bulk is the TypeNull+Dusclops team)

venu won 299 / 500 battles against bulk [this took 50.845900 seconds]

As you can see, this team has a pretty bad matchup against Band Intrepid MHera and Flower Veil+Simple MVenusaur. With results as significant as these, there is a very low probability that "bulk" actually has a true winning probability against "hera" and "venu".

However, I think with that obscenely bulky setup you should have an incredible matchup against Imposter Blissey. Did you farm a lot of points against that Imposter Blissey bot running around? I'm just curious how your grind was like.

I no doubt farmed that bot whenever I saw it, just autopilot mash metronome and skip turn LOL. That bot should really have at least some dmax stalling added to it's programing.

More people need to use the actual metagame teams it seems, because at the moment the team has an 81.1% GXE

 

[bonk]

I no doubt farmed that bot whenever I saw it, just autopilot mash metronome and skip turn LOL. That bot should really have at least some dmax stalling added to it's programing.

More people need to use the actual metagame teams it seems, because at the moment the team has an 81.1% GXE

This said, I no doubt got lucky, when say, Perish Song was pulled and I knew I was slower cause way too many people just 252 EV the speed stat for no reason.

Also in general, I'd stall out Magic Rooms or other weird situations with Dmax (just to maximize my winning chances when down, cause who knows, they might self-destruct)

 

[fwqef]

It's really interesting how the current ladder meta has completely shaped around the Blissey Bot. Mega Heracross is absolutely nowhere to be seen and I'm sure that this month's stats will reflect it. This is due to the fact that Imposter Blissey has an overwhelmingly good matchup against heracross because Imposter generally has a good matchup against glass cannon type teams and Intrepid Sword actually gives Imposter 2x atk boost. People could try to use neutralizing gas MHera to counter that but maybe it really wants the intrepid sword to perform optimally.

Band Intrepid Hera vs Leppa Imposter Blissey - Blissey DESTROYS Heracross
player2 won 810 / 1000 battles against player1 [this took 73.321968 seconds]

(Bonus Test: Bliss vs Flower Veil)
Leppa Imposter Blissey vs Weakness Policy Simple+Fveil MVenu - Blissey wins
player1 won 583 / 1000 battles against player2 [this took 128.407237 seconds]

I tried playing with bonk's eviolite team, and IN THEORY it should lose to the 2 most common teams (MHera, MVenu) but Heracross teams are practically dead and Flower Veil doesn't seem to be too common on the ladder either, so it can beat everything else. As expected, it does have a really good matchup against the Imposter Blissey bot especially factoring in 0PP dynamax stalling.

I am trying Double Dauntless Shield over Friend Guard though. I think Defense is more important than Special Defense in this format (although I have no concrete evidence to back that up lol) and the boost lasting even after the partner is dead could be better.

 

[bonk]

I am trying Double Dauntless Shield over Friend Guard though. I think Defense is more important than Special Defense in this format (although I have no concrete evidence to back that up lol) and the boost lasting even after the partner is dead could be better.

Worth a shot! I just figured the un-dropable / un-hazeable 1.3x boost is better in the long run but I didn't spend enough time with Dauntless Shield to know

 

[fwqef]

I did a larger scale project this time, with 10 metronome teams fighting each other in a league format, 1000 games per set (45000 games in total )

Here are the 10 teams that I used: https://pokepast.es/437b260ba5e76630
(I just realized BandNGasHera should have been Adamant instead of Jolly for the purpose of outspeeding Brave Hera and Banette, oh well, please don't tear me out)

battlewinrates.txt

FlowerVeilVenu's winrate: 52.666666666666664%
BonkStall's winrate: 48.17777777777778%
BandIntrepidHera's winrate: 51.58888888888888%
LeppaImposterBlissey's winrate: 43.388888888888886%
IvyNGas's winrate: 54.388888888888886%
Sevag PP's winrate: 43.422222222222224%
WPInnardsGuzzlord's winrate: 50.65555555555555%
WPSimpleVenuGuzz's winrate: 51.81111111111111%
BandNGasHera's winrate: 54.6%
SpecsCompetitiveAmphy's winrate: 49.3%

The winrates are almost unfairly favored towards the neutralizing gas users because they farmed a lot of wins against Leppa Imposter Blissey, but I guess it is a pretty good representation of the current ladder with the blissey bot running around.

I haven't looked into the data too much but I think I confirmed the existence of a 4-way rock paper scissors that I have personally experienced in ladder.

Passive Stall > Imposter > Band Intrepid Hera > Simple+Weakness Policy > Passive Stall

I made a chart using basic powerpoint skills lol.

stats confirming this

BonkStall won 713 / 1000 against LeppaImposterBlissey [this took 242.526211977005 seconds]
BandIntrepidHera won 200 / 1000 against LeppaImposterBlissey [this took 143.9116494655609 seconds]
BandIntrepidHera won 601 / 1000 against WPSimpleVenuGuzz [this took 750.0180184841156 seconds]
BonkStall won 423 / 1000 against WPSimpleVenuGuzz [this took 763.4316220283508 seconds]

Band Neutralizing Gas Heracross was a set I made to break this 4-way matchup flow by being able to easily beat 2 of the 4 on this list (Leppa Imposter Blissey, Simple+Weakness Policy) and hopefully beat the other 2 as well. It seems that unfortunately it has a pretty even matchup against BonkStall and BandIntrepidHera, but the team was still good enough to shoot up to the highest winrate of the 10 teams. The simple+weakness policy matchup was pretty questionable so I did a few more tests.

more tests

WPSimpleVenuGuzz won 514 / 1000 against BandNGasHera [this took 82.19023537635803 seconds]

WPSimpleVenuGuzz won 493 / 1000 against BandNGasHera [this took 80.52768230438232 seconds]

...yeah I guess their matchup is also around even.

Go check out the attached battle data if you want, I would recommend checking for less than 468 and more than 532 wins for significant matchup differences due to le nerdy stats reasons I'd rather not explain. Any win counts between those 2 numbers are probably around even matchup.

battledata.txt

FlowerVeilVenu won 573 / 1000 against BonkStall [this took 120.20968818664551 seconds]

FlowerVeilVenu won 458 / 1000 against BandIntrepidHera [this took 184.83954906463623 seconds]

FlowerVeilVenu won 419 / 1000 against LeppaImposterBlissey [this took 291.891654253006 seconds]

FlowerVeilVenu won 557 / 1000 against IvyNGas [this took 382.01193857192993 seconds]

FlowerVeilVenu won 708 / 1000 against Sevag PP [this took 468.6153688430786 seconds]

FlowerVeilVenu won 488 / 1000 against WPInnardsGuzzlord [this took 553.6503717899323 seconds]

FlowerVeilVenu won 494 / 1000 against WPSimpleVenuGuzz [this took 632.168773651123 seconds]

FlowerVeilVenu won 563 / 1000 against BandNGasHera [this took 716.618640422821 seconds]

FlowerVeilVenu won 480 / 1000 against SpecsCompetitiveAmphy [this took 793.0736100673676 seconds]

BonkStall won 460 / 1000 against BandIntrepidHera [this took 93.32096457481384 seconds]

BonkStall won 713 / 1000 against LeppaImposterBlissey [this took 242.526211977005 seconds]

BonkStall won 430 / 1000 against IvyNGas [this took 371.27324390411377 seconds]

BonkStall won 441 / 1000 against Sevag PP [this took 500.615309715271 seconds]

BonkStall won 491 / 1000 against WPInnardsGuzzlord [this took 634.5042126178741 seconds]

BonkStall won 423 / 1000 against WPSimpleVenuGuzz [this took 763.4316220283508 seconds]

BonkStall won 504 / 1000 against BandNGasHera [this took 883.9607045650482 seconds]

BonkStall won 447 / 1000 against SpecsCompetitiveAmphy [this took 1035.3054559230804 seconds]

BandIntrepidHera won 200 / 1000 against LeppaImposterBlissey [this took 143.9116494655609 seconds]

BandIntrepidHera won 497 / 1000 against IvyNGas [this took 322.6504876613617 seconds]

BandIntrepidHera won 623 / 1000 against Sevag PP [this took 467.1298186779022 seconds]

BandIntrepidHera won 534 / 1000 against WPInnardsGuzzlord [this took 609.4410617351532 seconds]

BandIntrepidHera won 601 / 1000 against WPSimpleVenuGuzz [this took 750.0180184841156 seconds]

BandIntrepidHera won 507 / 1000 against BandNGasHera [this took 900.9170553684235 seconds]

BandIntrepidHera won 599 / 1000 against SpecsCompetitiveAmphy [this took 1039.3643329143524 seconds]

LeppaImposterBlissey won 131 / 1000 against IvyNGas [this took 213.56917595863342 seconds]

LeppaImposterBlissey won 552 / 1000 against Sevag PP [this took 439.085324048996 seconds]

LeppaImposterBlissey won 384 / 1000 against WPInnardsGuzzlord [this took 660.974258184433 seconds]

LeppaImposterBlissey won 432 / 1000 against WPSimpleVenuGuzz [this took 880.216710805893 seconds]

LeppaImposterBlissey won 119 / 1000 against BandNGasHera [this took 972.2562544345856 seconds]

LeppaImposterBlissey won 619 / 1000 against SpecsCompetitiveAmphy [this took 1087.674507856369 seconds]

IvyNGas won 547 / 1000 against Sevag PP [this took 150.12051796913147 seconds]

IvyNGas won 505 / 1000 against WPInnardsGuzzlord [this took 317.41605401039124 seconds]

IvyNGas won 449 / 1000 against WPSimpleVenuGuzz [this took 485.9468021392822 seconds]

IvyNGas won 541 / 1000 against BandNGasHera [this took 598.7252423763275 seconds]

IvyNGas won 468 / 1000 against SpecsCompetitiveAmphy [this took 700.2651817798615 seconds]

Sevag PP won 495 / 1000 against WPInnardsGuzzlord [this took 99.5536539554596 seconds]

Sevag PP won 376 / 1000 against WPSimpleVenuGuzz [this took 201.52824234962463 seconds]

Sevag PP won 414 / 1000 against BandNGasHera [this took 291.93441247940063 seconds]

Sevag PP won 494 / 1000 against SpecsCompetitiveAmphy [this took 378.04585671424866 seconds]

WPInnardsGuzzlord won 520 / 1000 against WPSimpleVenuGuzz [this took 93.95648860931396 seconds]

WPInnardsGuzzlord won 438 / 1000 against BandNGasHera [this took 180.4286367893219 seconds]

WPInnardsGuzzlord won 498 / 1000 against SpecsCompetitiveAmphy [this took 270.23777413368225 seconds]

WPSimpleVenuGuzz won 477 / 1000 against BandNGasHera [this took 88.32857823371887 seconds]

WPSimpleVenuGuzz won 481 / 1000 against SpecsCompetitiveAmphy [this took 184.3598382472992 seconds]

BandNGasHera won 477 / 1000 against SpecsCompetitiveAmphy [this took 89.13278341293335 seconds]

 

[bonk]

Passive Stall > Imposter > Band Intrepid Hera > Simple+Weakness Policy > Passive Stall

I made a chart using basic powerpoint skills lol.

Wait a minute... I think you're on to something paradigm breaking here

 

[fwqef]

Sorry for being impatient, but when are the unbans + potential BST increase being patched in? I assumed it was going to be patched in the current server update that just happened. Ivy

 

[doipy hooves]

The CROWN TUNDRA update is here. Here are my first impressions right before I go to sleep. Spoilered because DLC spoilers.

Hide

POKEMON
Glastrier is the star of the show in my opinion, at least when it comes to the current BST limit. This ice horse boasts a fantastic stat spread that feels like an unholy fusion/hybrid between Melmetal and Mega Heracross. It's bulky despite its Ice typing, making a Weakness Policy a perfect item for it.

Spectrier is kind of meh, comparable to Mega Gengar. Has more HP at least.

Regieleki is speed, Regidrago is guzzlord. Both are not bulky.

Galarian Birds bring some type diversity to high BST, however useful that is. Helps Delta Stream? Also regular Moltres has the Galar form stats right now.

Galarian Slowking is a nice addition to the slow family, but doesn't put much onto the table.

Calyrex is worse Celebi. Its rider forms are far stronger, though they aren't Grass type unfortunately. Calyrex does learn Metronome by TR ingame at least.

ABILITIES
Curious Medicine is useless in the 2v2 format. (EDIT: I'm awake and realized this probably has a still-useless use against Intimidate. I was thinking of Neutralizing Gas and its constant presence, I guess.)

Dragon's Maw/Transistor increase Dragon/Electric damage, like Steelworker. Neat but niche.
Grim Neigh/Chilling Neigh are Moxie for SpA/Atk, and As One are abilities that combines those effects with Unnerve. Unfortunately, Moxie for Attack already exists, and we have Soul-Heart as a better version for Special Attack. At the moment Showdown has As One as one ability that boosts based on the species (riders), and turns into Unnerve for some reason.

MOVES
Legendary stuff is back! Nature's Madness was actually removed at the start of Gen 8 despite being unclickable. I think I posted a list of expected moves at some point in the past.
As far as I can tell by the flags, nothing new was added to the Metronome pool except Eerie Spell (Psychic, 80BP, -3 PP on hit). A bit disappointing.

ITEMS
Nothing for battles was added.

Good to see some lively discussion in the thread. I agree that Neutralizing Gas made the meta pretty boring, especially as the ladder returned and things got competitive again, ruining my argument that people would play for fun or something. I think now is a really nice time to make changes as everything's shaken up with this new release.

Phone edit: almost forgot but there is a new mixed bug dragon CAP called Miasmaw.

 

[bonk]

Who's PokemonCards4Days on the ladder?


I am interested in buying some Pokemon cards as I await the increased BST

 

[fwqef]

I sat down and grinded to Top 3 with the help of the new Glastrier. How tf are rank 1 and rank 2 so high lol. 1570 ELO was something I’ve never been able to do even with the power of Melmetals. I guess I’ll wait for the top guys to decay or choke and then try going for rank 1. Anyways, I used a combination of these 2 teams:


Melmeta (Glastrier) @ Weakness Policy
Ability: Intrepid Sword
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Relaxed Nature
- Metronome

Melmeta (Glastrier) @ Weakness Policy
Ability: Intrepid Sword
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Metronome



Glastrier @ Weakness Policy
Ability: Neutralizing Gas
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Metronome

Glastrier @ Weakness Policy
Ability: Comatose
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Relaxed Nature
- Metronome


I used Intrepid sword mostly, and Neutralizing Gas when I am expecting to face Imposter Blissey. I figured immediate power with Intrepid Sword was better than the slower-to-activate Defiant.

Glastrier can trigger weakness policy almost every game with its horrible defensive typing and it has the bulk to take a super effective hit pretty reliably. i gave the sets +def nature to help shrug off those supereffective hits better. Glastrier hits fairly hard on the physical side and pretty meh on the special side. This pokemon certainly does remind me of Melmetal. It can activate weakness policy very easily but it is also frailer, so I guess it’s a more hyper offensive version of Melmetal. Melmetal is still way better btw


Lastly, I do agree with the other guys that Neutralizing Gas can suck the fun out of metronome battles sometimes. I think that is a good enough reason to ban it considering the nature of this format. If it gets banned I won’t ever miss it.

 

[bonk]

Tbh if I choke the #1 spot I'll just grind for it again until "bonkstall" is no longer viable LOL

 

[Ivy]

The server is now live with Primordial Sea, Desolate Land, and Sturdinja freed, and Neutralizing Gas banned. I also double checked and apart from Glastrier there doesn't seem to be too much radical new stuff from the DLC here, so that's all that's been changed.

 

[Ivy]

Among the current "retests", I've heard a vocal outcry in the OMs server about Sturdinja. I'm going to be trying it out to see if it's all it's chalked up to be, because if the Power of Alchemy proto-sturdinja is any kind of indication, it still stinks.

 

[xAdonis]

I am trying out a sturdinja team with an innards out blissey... any thoughts on what item the blissey should run also what are the best stats for blissey to die but still have enough health to kill? Is it better to have full special defense so it takes less chip? Right now I have a ring target on it but idk if that is optimal. Also what would other good partners for the sturdinja be?

 

[bonk]

I am trying out a sturdinja team with an innards out blissey... any thoughts on what item the blissey should run also what are the best stats for blissey to die but still have enough health to kill? Is it better to have full special defense so it takes less chip? Right now I have a ring target on it but idk if that is optimal. Also what would other good partners for the sturdinja be?

I personally use Chansey since the HP is enough for nearly everything but it's probably similar.

Item should be Ring Target and just Min Def, Min HP, Max Sp. Def so that your HP stays sky high when hit by Special attacks, but falls over against any physical attack.

 

[fwqef]

I tested sturdy shed a couple of times on ladder. I think it is certainly not overpowered but a lot of people seem to hate playing against it.

Sturdy shed's flaw is that it doesn't have enough damage to do anything meaningful with the invulnerability turns it has access to. Giving Shedinja Choice band can help Shedinja do actual threatening damage, but it might want other items like Lum Berry instead to bypass harmful status. There are a LOT of ways that Sturdy Shedinja can die, like status, weather, recoil, damage-over-time moves like fire spin, struggle, etc. Shedinja most likely ends up dying before everyone burns their 16 metronome turns, and even if it does stall 16 turns, it would die in 1 struggle.

I think Choice Band Sturdinja is pretty promising but definitely not top tier, maybe 1300s elo cap. Lum Shedinja can potentially survive longer but you have to understand that it just sits around and doesn't accomplish much.

As I said, it's more likely to get rebanned because it feels frustrating to play against rather than being actually overpowered.

 

[Ivy]

I went on an alt and got barely 50% win rate even at the bottom of the ladder with a sturdinja team carrying one lum berry and one safety goggle. It's certainly a polarizing thing to face off against (and even to use—you feel invincible at times lol) but I can't see the "frustration factor" alone being banworthy when the quantifiable results are so lackluster.

 

[vermillionbedsheet]

Regirock @ Weakness Policy
Ability: Ice Scales
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD
Brave Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Metronome

I found this Regirock set that's been treating me well on the ladder. WP might be swapped out in the future for Choice Band.

 

[xAdonis]

Is there any teams that just straight up win against sturdinja teams anymore?

 

[vermillionbedsheet]

Is there any teams that just straight up win against sturdinja teams anymore?

I've personally found that most defense-oriented teams tend to outlast Sturdinja. Even with Choice Band it doesn't do nearly enough damage to threaten things like Type: Null, Mega-Sableye, Dusclops, or even mons like Regirock.

 

[bonk]

Even Mega Heracross is bulky enough to outlast sturdinja

 

[vermillionbedsheet]

Even Mega Heracross is bulky enough to outlast sturdinja

Me No Like Shed (Heracross-Mega) @ Kee Berry
Ability: Dauntless Shield
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Metronome

I believe that this is the optimized set for outlasting Shedinja /s

 

[doipy hooves]

It's November 1st, and it's time for the October usage stats! I believe these stats only span 9 days since the Crown Tundra release, so it's more of a glimpse of the new state of the meta.

https://www.smogon.com/stats/2020-10-DLC2/gen8metronomebattle-1630.txt
https://www.smogon.com/stats/2020-10-DLC2/moveset/gen8metronomebattle-1630.txt

Even with the smaller timespan, the ladder is still alive and well with 16392 battles played. Personally I found it to be pretty active, but I admit there were points of waiting. Still had some good games though.

1630 Top 10 + last month positions:
#1: Glastrier (new!)
#2: Mega Venusaur (no change)
#3: Mega Heracross (#1)
#4: Blissey (#7)
#5: Necturna (no change)
#6: Dusclops (no change)
#7: Mega Banette (#10)
#8: Dragapult (#3)
#9: Mega Sableye (#4)
#10: Aurumoth (#37)

Both Glastrier and Venusaur overtook Heracross this month, with the ice horse taking the top spot through the combined powers of recency and having good stats. Dusclops and Banette have managed to maintain their positions, even with Neutralizing Gas banned for half the series. Those sets are still weighted highest in the moveset stats. We have MetronomerBot to thank for Blissey's upsurge, which may stay for good post-Neutralizing Gas ban. Aurumoth is the dark horse here, managing a surprising jump and breaking into the top 10 while Mew stays at #11.
In general, it seems like the meta may be shifting towards Weakness Policy/bulky statboost, but it's hard to say for sure.

As for new additions, Desolate Land Camerupt is an obvious winner. I've found Primordial Sea Abomasnow to be a nice combo over Flash Fire, but rain does nerf Solar moves and Abomasnow is outslowed by Camerupt, so it won't win the optimal weather war. Mold Breaker can also be nice to sweep Sturdinja (#16) now, if it remains relevant.

I've gone back to my roots and made some more Shaymin teams for the new meta. It might just be me using bulky teams for so long, but Shaymin feels a lot frailer than I remember. This kill shocked me:
252+ SpA Choice Specs Plus Gengar-Mega Acid vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Shaymin-Sky on a critical hit: 384-452 (95 - 111.8%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO

On the other hand, Grass's common resistances have been nice for survival sometimes. You win some, you lose some.

Another small trend I've noticed is mono-grass teams without Flower Veil, just running double Simple + Weakness Policy. Maybe fwqef's weakness square (triangle now?) is onto something.

 

[vermillionbedsheet]

https://pokepast.es/2887d08491e812d1

This is a team that I plan on trying out today, in light of Doipy reminding me of the existence of Shaymin. In my defense of forgetting Shaymin-Sky's immense offensive potential, I really hated Giratina and the Sky Warrior. I'm swapping out regular Shaymin for Mega-Venusaur because A. I find Mega-Venusaur to be much cuter and B. I think that it has better longevity