Missing link?

It's obviously just a set-up by the Godless Left to trick children into having abortions and gay sex.

Whoops. I was channeling DK for a moment.

I think it's a significant breakthrough mostly because it is so amazingly intact. They even discovered that she ate fruit and leaves! How adorable.

GG evolution.
 
Wow, I guess this just backs up what we've known for ages. You can't really argue with physical evidence.
 
I kinda think this discussion COULD be done in the palaeontology thread, but sure, I'll bite.

This find is being way overhyped. It's just another transitional form in a long line of transitional forms that are found. It's pretty outstanding blah blah and great preservation, but honestly it's not a breakthrough. Hell, the origins and evolution of primates has essentially been resolved for decades. You know science is doing it's job when it can predict various features and have them line up with finds that are made or studied at a later date.
 
Yeah, what morm said. This find is certainly cool, and I love the fact that "proof of evolution" is starting to actually make the mainstream news...but for people who actually follow and study these things, this isnt really new. I really doubt that ANOTHER fossil is going to convince the delusional people who dont believe in evolution, theyve already thrown making logical conjecture based on overwhelming observable evidence out the window.

And yeah, science is awesome when it makes predictions and is completely right. Thats why I really wish I started off as a Physics major instead of Math ._.
 
I don't see how evolution is merely a theory after seeing this.

Anti-evolution people please enlighten me.
 
I never thought that evolution should have been a theory anyway; my fundamental belief was that evolution was a proven fact that most people accepted already. Guess this puts those creationists to bed though.
 
Sad thing is, all this will do is create 2 more missing links for them, as usual.

I really do think that things like Ardipithecus and Aegyptopithecus illustrate to people that think evolution includes everything but people that people are, infact, subject to evolution. Other than that, primates have been resolved for a long fucking time. It's not like anyone is surprised by this find in the least; I've personally expected it for almost a decade. This is nothing more than yet another nod to the palaeo and evodevo/evobiol community that predicted this shit years ago.

MS: evolutuon is approriately a theory. A theory is something that must have substantial evidence to be raised to that level. A hypothesis is something that requires testing. With 150 years of evolution, you'd think someone somewhere would have come up with a single piece of evidence to counter evolution. Just so you know: a single piece of evidence makes an entire hypothesis get revamped, rethought or discarded completely. Those that deny evolution because it's a theory really shouldn't be "believing" in bacterial mode of infection or gravity as it is hypocritical.

In conclusion: stop giving a shit about this find, here is one that is far more important. Or if you think plants are the older cousin of Animalia that doesn't get invited to parties for good reason (because they are boring conversationalists): SEAHORSE.

Or this for good measure.
Mary isn't crazy? Maybe and Cool at the same time.

Seriously palaeo thread people.
 
Morm: Whilst your definition of a hypothesis is fundamentally correct - (an unproven idea), your definition of theory seems to match the definition of a fact. The only potential difference I see is:

"A theory is something that must have substantial evidence to be raised to that level".

You could argue that its a theory because we did not witness evolution therefore we do not know it that it happened for certain. However, I believe that there is enough conclusive evidence, rather then substantial as you say, that makes evolution a fact. (e.g pentadactyl forelimbs of mammalia and transitional forms).

And lol I just read the first link you posted :P
 
You could argue that its a theory because we did not witness evolution therefore we do not know it that it happened for certain.

PARDON?

This is the 4th time or so I've linked to this article in congregation, this is why I encourage reading of the palaeo thread. :D
 
I stand corrected :). Still, it doesn't change my belief that there is conclusive evidence for evolution and that it is a fact rather then a theory, rather it reinforces it :D.
 
Your first mistake is that you believe.

A theory is an idea put forth that has been tested and has yet to have any evidence presented that makes it need an overhaul/refutes it entirely.

Fact is something you can plainly observe, such as my sleeping cat in front of me; I can see he is sleeping and that he is a cat, therefore that is what he must be. Fuck philosophy by the way.

Evolution is an odd beast indeed. It has more individual pieces of evidence than any other theory or hypothesis in the history of the scientific study of biology, yet it is the most wrongly and inappropriately questioned idea out there. Personally, shit like string theory and big bang are taken at face value as truth to alot of scientifically minded people and THAT deserves scrutiny.

Fact? Please. Evolution is not a fact. It merely has not been refuted by millions of individually and mutually exclusive pieces of evidence spanning 150 years. Wow.
 
Your first mistake is that you believe.

A theory is an idea put forth that has been tested and has yet to have any evidence presented that makes it need an overhaul/refutes it entirely.

Fact is something you can plainly observe, such as my sleeping cat in front of me; I can see he is sleeping and that he is a cat, therefore that is what he must be. Fuck philosophy by the way.

Evolution is an odd beast indeed. It has more individual pieces of evidence than any other theory or hypothesis in the history of the scientific study of biology, yet it is the most wrongly and inappropriately questioned idea out there. Personally, shit like string theory and big bang are taken at face value as truth to alot of scientifically minded people and THAT deserves scrutiny.

Fact? Please. Evolution is not a fact. It merely has not been refuted by millions of pieces of individually and mutually exclusive pieces of evidence spanning 150 years. Wow.

I guess....I've always been under the impression that a theory fits with the 6th definition given in the Webster dictionary "6 a: a hypothesis assumed for the sake of argument or investigation".

However, seeing as so many widely accepted scientific concepts, such as Einstein's Theory of Relativity and the Theory of Everything referred to as "theories" rather then "facts", I'm inclined to agree with you here.
 
The amount of attention this is getting and the way in which it is being presented makes it look really orchestrated. I'm not saying I doubt that it's real, but you can definitely tell that it is being made into some big commercial project. I mean this thing was first reported in a very casual, open source journal, with no peer-editing, and now it is exploding into the scientific community with very little resistance and interrogation. Something seems fishy....

EDIT: Who am I kidding? I seriously don't believe this is real at all!
 
Syrucrosse, how can you even legitimately say that about something you have no idea about? Very clearly the specimen exists and it has warrented legitimate publication; the fact that the media has whored it is completely immaterial to to the legitimacy of the find.

Before you go saying there was no resistance or interrogation, you have to consider that the original researchers actually DID scrutinze the fossil. Only by examining it closely is it apparent that it is indeed a transitional form.

The idea of it being an orchestrated scheme, presumably generated because you're christian and ignorant of how science actually works, is repugnant and completely uncalled for.
 
Haha dude I'm the biggest atheist you will ever meet. I'm not saying I don't believe the thing to actually physically exist, it just seems odd. The find was apparently 'kept secret' until a movie, a book and a dog-and-pony show were all produced, out of the public eye and out of the eye of peer review. Findings with implications as potentially influential as these often require months of review by various groups within the scientific community. Further, the response of many scientists declaring Ida's significance to have been overstated hardly got the press coverage that was awarded to the initial announcements that "the missing link" had been found. It just seems like the PR direction behind this aims to exploit the hype and bring in money (not that that's anything new).

EDIT: Here's a recent post from New Scientist's curator David Beard:
'Uniquely for primate fossils this old, Ida's stomach contents and a few aspects of her soft anatomy are preserved. Like all adapiforms, Ida lacked a "toothcomb" at the front of her lower jaw – a structure that living lemurs use for grooming fur. Ida also lacked a "grooming claw" on her second toe, another difference from living lemurs. Otherwise, Ida's overall proportions and anatomy resemble that of a lemur, and the same is true for other adapiform primates.

What does Ida's anatomy tell us about her place on the family tree of humans and other primates? The fact that she retains primitive features that commonly occurred among all early primates, such as simple incisors rather than a full-fledged toothcomb, indicates that Ida belongs somewhere closer to the base of the tree than living lemurs do.

But this does not necessarily make Ida a close relative of anthropoids – the group of primates that includes monkeys, apes – and humans. In order to establish that connection, Ida would have to have anthropoid-like features that evolved after anthropoids split away from lemurs and other early primates. Here, alas, Ida fails miserably.

So, Ida is not a "missing link" – at least not between anthropoids and more primitive primates. Further study may reveal her to be a missing link between other species of Eocene adapiforms, but this hardly solidifies her status as the "eighth wonder of the world".'


SUPER DOUBLE EXTRA EDIT: Looking at your first post, Mormoopid, I see that we basically agree. The article I quoted goes along with what you said. I just think that there may be something up is all. What I was calling "not real" is the whole "missing link" title.

Also, can we not get in an argument? I hate to feel that someone is trying to prove me wrong, even if they're right, you know?

PS. I actually edited this at least fifteen times to make it not seem "douche-ey and generally unchill."
 
The find was 'kept secret' because it was in a private collection until very recently. The timing is pretty much coincidence as far as I understand, but the unveiling of an important specimen being timed isn't unheard of.

Findings with implications as potentially influential as these often require months of review by various groups within the scientific community.

Often things aren't announced until the results. The academic community is a paranoid bunch and rightly so, with a rich history of discovery plundering. It's one of the many reasons why I chose not to get involved in academia.
 
Still waiting on one of you evolutionists to explain how the puddle of seething soup of chemicals simply popped into existence on its own and the foundation that it laid upon.

That puddle of chemicals must've really been quite a genius, to think to itself one day "Gee, I'm tired of being a puddle of nothing. I think I'll become intelligent life. It might take awhile, like maybe "millions of years", but by golly, I'll figure it out. One of these days I'm going to become a human, and I'm going to be intelligent"

Science can't explain everything because all it does is fall into another wall of mystery.

What is the smallest particle? An atom? what about what created an atom; quarks? What are quarks made of?
 
You should look around at various theories and sources, in libraries and online databases. No one is going to compose a ten million word thesis on Smogon concerning the topic of "Everything Ever In Existence, Ever, and Why it Exists (EVER)" ... ever.
 
You should look around at various theories and sources, in libraries and online databases. No one is going to compose a ten million word thesis on Smogon concerning the topic of "Everything Ever In Existence, Ever, and Why it Exists (EVER)" ... ever.

Lol... I'm not trying to find an answer to my questions. My argument is that science has no limit.
 
Still waiting on one of you evolutionists to explain how the puddle of seething soup of chemicals simply popped into existence on its own and the foundation that it laid upon.

That puddle of chemicals must've really been quite a genius, to think to itself one day "Gee, I'm tired of being a puddle of nothing. I think I'll become intelligent life. It might take awhile, like maybe "millions of years", but by golly, I'll figure it out. One of these days I'm going to become a human, and I'm going to be intelligent"

Science can't explain everything because all it does is fall into another wall of mystery.

What is the smallest particle? An atom? what about what created an atom; quarks? What are quarks made of?

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/abioprob/

What's lazier than linking to an article as an argument? Linking to a page that links to other articles as an argument.
 
Still waiting on one of you evolutionists to explain how the puddle of seething soup of chemicals simply popped into existence on its own and the foundation that it laid upon.

Oh your god, I'm pretty sure there has been covered in cong a few times and isn't in the scope of this thread really. Of course, it's standard fare for you creationists (I'm assuming you are one) to move the goalposts back further and further until science doesn't have an answer. The lovely part about that statement is that just because science doesn't have an answer it doesn't make it supernatural, it just means we can't explain it at this time. Science is a process. Furthermore, there is substantial evidence to support a coldwater origin for life or even a hydrothermal vent origin. It's not just a puddle of seething soup as you say. Creation and evolution are apples and oranges when you talk about it in this way.

That puddle of chemicals must've really been quite a genius, to think to itself one day "Gee, I'm tired of being a puddle of nothing. I think I'll become intelligent life. It might take awhile, like maybe "millions of years", but by golly, I'll figure it out. One of these days I'm going to become a human, and I'm going to be intelligent"

Are you honestly anthropomorphising a puddle in that way? That's an arguement I've never seen before!

Science can't explain everything because all it does is fall into another wall of mystery.
Do you want to talk about mystery? Really? I have heard somewhere that the lord works in mysterious ways. That is a great statement- we don't know the why or even the how of your gods methodological workings. You're taking it on faith, that's a pretty hugely hypocritical statement to be making. The great part about science, which shouldn't be crucified by the faithful, is that if a mystery is presented it is objectively worked at until it is resolved. That progressive thinking has given you various things like the microprocessor and electricity- the very things you are using when you make such a post. Don't be so hasty to condemn science in such a sweeping way.

What is the smallest particle? An atom? what about what created an atom; quarks? What are quarks made of?

Goalpost moving. Absolute arguementative regression at it's finest. This isn't really a fair statement given the threads capacity, though I invite you to post about that as I'm certain there is someone here that can give you an answer or you can google it.
 
Atoms themselves are made up of neutrons, protons and electrons. Protons and neutrons are made up of quarks and gluons, quarks are the building blocks of matter and they are held together by gluons. Electrons are made from leptons, leptons are a type of fermion, quarks are another type of fermion. Bosons are particles that produce and carry forces and include photons and gluons.
For those that run with Einstein's E=mc2 theory of general and special relativity, matter is simply condensed energy (E/c2). E = mc2 is a relationship between the energy supplied to a closed system and the quantity of mass increase of the system due to the added energy. It is also the maximum amount of energy a system can transfer to other systems, e.g. the amount of rest energy possesed by a pion. The pion can disintegrate into two particles, the sum of the energies of the two particles adding up to the rest energy of the pion. Mass is not "frozen energy."

EDIT: How did we get to talking about pions, again?
 
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