M&M Mix and Mega Suspect #7: Deoxys-Speed

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Chloe

Chloe

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I have no PC access, forgive me for the art! :s
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The Mix and Mega Council has decided that we will be conducting our second suspect test of USUM on Deoxys-Speed.

Deoxys-Speed has been a potent entry-hazard lead since the beginning of the generation, following its initial unban. Deoxys-Speed, while virtually guaranteeing Stealth Rock set-up with Gyaradosite, wasn't considered uncompetitive or centralising for the majority of the SM Mix and Mega metagame's duration.

This was until Pidgeotite was released in mid SM, allowing many fast Pokémon to abuse a large Special Attack increase and ability of No Guard to overwhelm the metagame's common threats. Initially, sleep abuse in conjunction with No Guard was the combination that was the obvious issue. As a result, Darkrai and Shaymin-Sky were dealt with. As the metagame progressed, issues in previous iterations of the metagame such as No Guard Zap Cannon seemed quite ineffective when used by the majority of users. Pokémon such as Xurkitree and Mew were too slow to be effective. Powerful attackers due to Pidgeotite were never considered for a suspect test due to the general consensus that they weren't broken or uncompetitive.

Deoxys-Speed is an obvious exception to this. It has the speed, natural bulk and movepool to support effective use of Pidgeotite. Its access to Zap Cannon only aids its potency. The community believes that this is an issue that must be addressed, and the council agrees so here we are.

Gyaradosite: 50 / 125 / 120 / 105 / 120 / 180 | Mold Breaker | Psychic / Dark
Pidgeotite: 50 / 95 / 95 / 160 / 100 / 200 | No Guard | Psychic
Click to expand...

Note: This suspect is solely for Deoxys-Speed's ability to hold mega stones.

COIL: 2750
B: 10.5
Game Limit: 50

How many battles you'll need to get voting reqs:
Code: 
GXE N
100 19
95 23
90 27
85 34
80 48

To determine the amount of games you'll need to play to obtain requirements, input your GXE into Google Calculator using the equation "N=10.5/log2(40*GXE/2750)".
Alternatively you can input your GXE into this.

No suspect tournament this time round.

Where do I post?
Post your suspect requirements proof in this thread, along with your vote. Ban, No Ban, or Abstain in bold so it makes it easier to tell what your vote is when counting.
You do not require a specific username, any alt may be used, as long as you provide a screenshot of requirements and proof that the alt is yours.

You may also discuss the current suspect test within this thread, as the thread is not limited to posting reqs.

The suspect test will last for nine days, ending on February 5th.
60% Ban Majority required to Ban Deoxys-S from bearing Mega Stones.

In summary:
  • We're suspecting Deoxys-Speed from holding Mega Stones.
  • The COIL requirement is 2750, the B value is 10.5, the game limit is 50.
  • Deoxys-Speed will be banned from holding Mega Stones during the suspect process.
  • Post requirements proof on thread with vote in bold so it's easier to count.
  • Suspect will end on February 5th.
  • 60% ban vote required to ban.
  • DEOXYS-SPEED IS STILL PERMITTED TO HOLD MEGA STONES IN ROUND 1 OF THE M&M OPEN.
Thank you The Immortal :D!
 
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It seems as if I'm required to extend the suspect test. Since we're unsure when it's going up, I won't announce the new deadline yet.

I do encourage discussion on the topic of whether Deoxys-Speed is banworthy. What do you all think and why?
 
I think that while Deoxys-Speed isn’t overwhelmingly broken, it certainly wouldn’t be too large of a loss if it went. It’s by far and away, the best Pidgeotite user, although I would argue that it’s not the best Zap Cannon user, merely a pokemon that takes advantage of a fairly strong move in its repitore. Gyaradosite is another good stone for it, and together, Deoxys-Speed threatens a lot of pokemon. On Hyper-Offense, Deoxys-Speed gets hazards up, and the team ensures it never goes away. On Bulky Offense, and Balance, Deoxys-Speed wreaks havoc by spreading paralysis everywhere, and taking advantage of the fact that if you ev it properly, you live an Extreme Speed from an unboosted Zygarde.

The main reason I personally think it’s not the best user of Zap Cannon, is that I don’t really think there are many targets it wants to ensure it outspeeds, and most of these targets are other Deoxys-Speed, and certain Naganadel spreads. I just think that the paralysis hax is more visible for Deoxys-Speed, since it likes that, but there’s not a lot of worthy targets that it should actively attempt to outspeed, and that’s why I believe Zap Cannon is merely a strong option for it.

One problem with Deoxys-Speed is that it has actually decent bulk, and as such, can be manipulated to ensure it lives more. One example of this is the 148 HP/252 SpAtk/108 Spe spread, which allows it to outpace most Diancite Naganadels sets, and dumps the rest in HP so it lives more. Gyaradosite actually also has pretty good bulk, and as such, lives quite a few super-effective moves if the mon isn’t boosted or doesn’t have enough power behind it. Gyaradosite Deoxys-Speed is firmly in Hyper-Offense territory, and it’s easy to see why. It just sets hazards so well.

However, as a few members in the Mix and Mega community knows, we have a few reliable stops to Deoxys-Speed’s Pidgeotite set. Specially Defensive Necrozma Dusk-Mane is the first one that comes to mind when I think of Deoxys-Speed checks, as it comes with pretty reliable recovery. Sablenite Magearna is another example, although it’s rather prone to being worn down if you’re not careful enough. Sablenite Blissey is another example, but Nasty Plot, I believes, can eventually allow Deoxys-Speed to muscle through it.

Ultimately, I would be sad to see Deoxys-Speed go, but I would also be happy to have one less threat to worry about when team building, and I would also be able to take the pressure of my special walls to tank Deoxys-Speed’s attacks, and give them better roles. It would also free up the Pidgeotite stone for other pokemon who might really like it, like the Genesect set that has been rising recently.
 
uynfaUN.png

really got the luck gods on my side during the last few matches

will be voting ban, reasons for later

Now - I know a lot of you will be angered about this change. But after some discussion about my original opinion on this, I have decided to change my vote to a 'No Ban' vote.

Deoxys-Speed is often considered a very annoying Pokemon to face, with the 50/50s between how amazing the hazard setter is, and how strong Pidgeotite can be, both as a revenge killer and as a sweeper. But, those claims are somewhat incorrect imo, and I personally think that Deoxys-Speed is considered quite balanced at the moment. Very good mon, but not broken.

Deoxys-Speed's Gyaradosite set has evolved over the ages, being a very good hazard setter straight out of the box. We've had variants such as Light Screen / Mirror Coat to counterteam anti-lead Magearna, Dual Screens, and ever since USUM, Psycho Boost variants have popped up thanks to Naganadel. These sets might be strong, but often times they will only get one hazard up versus the current metagame. Strong wallbreakers like Victini and Groudon-Primal both OHKO it with their Fire-STAB, and wallbreakers like Keldeo can play mindgames with Taunt, often managing to taunt a Deoxys-Speed after they've set Stealth Rock, making them freely set up. -Ate users like Zygarde and Entei can also stop Deoxys-Speed from getting two hazards up per game, therefore making Deoxys-Speed, in the process, merely a mediocre Stealth Rock setter vs most offenses. Versus stall, it will usually have a better time, getting up at least two hazards per game and potentially luring opposing Magearna so that something like Xerneas or Tapu Lele can wallbreak.

That is all fine, however, the set that is considered troublesome is the Pidgeotite set. Boasting a good Special Attack stat of 160 and blazing 200 speed, Deoxys-Speed is a very good speed control option that can shut down most offensive teams with its immediate power and access to Zap Cannon - which is probably the main scrutiny of this set. People are most likely tired of facing Deoxys-Speed because of its ability to parahax its way through its opponents - not because it might be overpowered, but because those who have seen it have struggled to provide adequate counterplay. Most teams, nowadays, will need a steel from Magearna / Necro-DM / Jirachi on their team, because if not Tapu Lele can smash through them otherwise. This is another problem that most people face - a Deo-S + Lele psyspam core can threaten most checks to the core. However, it is yet again the same Steel-types that make Deoxys-Speed ineffective.

As much as people say that it can bypass these checks with a single paralysis, with Sablenite Magearna being the only one capable of avoiding such a feat, it still doesn't change the fact that a Nasty Plot is actually quite risky to pull off versus most balance teams, as Pokemon are either capable of hitting it hard so that it is put in the range of priority or pivot out into priority regardless, making Deo-S's turn entirely wasted. Stall has answers for this too - along with the steels mentioned in this thread that can take it out, they also have revenge killers like Ditto that can turn an entire MU against Deo, potentially preventing it from even wanting to setup vs Stall. Stall and balance also have Blissey to status or harm it with Seismic Toss / Toxic, making Deo-S far less likely to sweep. The same logic is used against Naganadel - Naganadel can theoretically sweep, and it has the initial bulk to do so - but often times it is entirely impossible due to how teams can soft-check through counterplay rather than have stalwart checks (yet again, Magearna and Necrozma-Dusk-Mane stop Naganadel in its tracks). Due to this offensive pressure, it is very difficult for Deoxys-Speed to ever manage to sweep.

So - as much as both of these sets might be broken to some, I have never managed to see someone use Deoxys-Speed to the level of strength that some people in this thread think it can do, and as such I would like to keep Deoxys-Speed in the metagame. Honestly a more threatening Pidgeotite user is Xurkitree - it's almost impossible to actually check it properly under webs, and in tandem with Shuckle I think it's more bannable than this.
 
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In The Hills said:
There's a 50 battle limit to get the reqs which needs appox. a 79% minimum gxe
Click to expand...
That still stands, vhayle got it after the 50 games. His glicko variation is lower than Chazm's which is a very clear indicator that he played more games
 
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Voting Ban

S/O‘s to Quantum Tesseract for help with the team, luck (good and bad), midterms throwing a wrench into times I could play, and that one counter team I faced 5 times that forced me to reset (R.I.P. Luckyboy1234567).

Deoxys-Speed isn’t too broken, though it is borders it. It is a great user of pidgeotite as it boosts its special attack by enough to make it quite threatening and it allows it to abuse moves with low accuracy like zap cannon and focus blast. Paired with its hard to top speed this thing can often take out several threats on a team or cripple them with zap cannon. In addition it actually has some form of bulk that allows it to take hits from pokemon like an extreme speed from an unboosted zygarde. On hyper-offense, Deoxys-Speed can utilize Gyaradosite to get hazards up with its increased bulk, mold breaker, speed and typing. There are a few checks to deoxys such as Sablenite Magearna, specially defensive Necrozma Dusk-Mane, Sablenite Blissey. Though with nasty plot, Deoxys can feasibly push through these checks. I would like to see this thing go such to not put as much pressure on team building though it definitely was fun to use.
 
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Deoxys S with a base speed of 95 doesn't get an insane special attacking stat after pidgeotite. Does it run an efficient mixed set with No Guard as to take on the likes of sablenite Blissey? I understand this might not fall upon agreeing minds, but it seems the meta is dominated by defensive mons and the list of suspect tests only serve to reinforce this trend. I will attempt to ladder.

Edit: might Jolteon be an effective replacement of Zap Cannon spam? It gets a higher special attack along with the actual STAB combo with still-lightning speed.
 
kviehdor said:
Deoxys S with a base speed of 95 doesn't get an insane special attacking stat after pidgeotite. Does it run an efficient mixed set with No Guard as to take on the likes of sablenite Blissey? I understand this might not fall upon agreeing minds, but it seems the meta is dominated by defensive mons and the list of suspect tests only serve to reinforce this trend. I will attempt to ladder.

Edit: might Jolteon be an effective replacement of Zap Cannon spam? It gets a higher special attack along with the actual STAB combo with still-lightning speed.
Click to expand...

If you want other Pidgeotite Abusers, you can use Gengar, Xurkitree or Zapdos
 
Vhayle said:
If you want other Pidgeotite Abusers, you can use Gengar, Xurkitree or Zapdos
Click to expand...
Of course, but Jolt seems to make more effective use due to its speed. But I'm primarily focusing on my main paragraph for banter focusing on the current suspect.
 
Alright I got reqs:

1517097172661.png


Hop on PS and /rank me if you want. This one's legit mods.

NO Ban

I personally have not had any issues with Pidgeotite Deoxys-Speed. If you remember battling me on the ladder, you'd know I run a heavy offence team, which Pidgeotite Deoxys-S would be most effective against due to its unrivalled Speed tier, power, and coverage. However, I've found that due to its frailty, it's not hard to pick off with priority, and we definitely aren't short of priority in this tier with -ate Extremespeeds, as well as Fake Out + Quick Attack Weavile holding Glalilite. Primal Groudon can also fit on any offence team and it can live any hit to OHKO back with Precipice Blades. So although it's generally a big threat to offence, it can definitely be played around with smart building and playing. Packing priority and a mon that can live any hit is not a big ask.

As for its matchup against more defensive playstyles, it's not hard to check with Sablenite Blissey / Magearna, or specially defensive Necrozma-Dusk Mane. And it's not as if these Pokemon are niche picks that limit building, they're top tier mons. Cresselia holding whatever mega stone is just another example that can wall it. There's quite a bit of options.

Its Gyaradosite set is fair play imo. Offence deserves a reliable hazard setter in a tier where Sablenite can otherwise shit on it.
 
I hope this is an okay contribution. Laddering itself seems a little invalid right now given the volume. The top 50 on the ladder barely can make reqs if at all just due to the small pool of players (my normal GXE is around 82). Although I'm sure it will ease up closer to the deadline, I go constantly from playing a very good player one match to playing someone who is not very good at all. So with this, I will give some further reasoning as to why Deoxys should stay as I don't know if I'll get the time to ladder when the ELOs have a chance to actually even out.
I think given the counters to offensive sets, namely Blissey (Which, if we halve it's HP and double it's defenses to make a FAIR comparison to other defensive pokemon, its bulk would be 357, 480, and 814, which is completely off-the-wall; Bliss is also running on 80 percent of the teams that ladder), I don't really see what the problem is. Mold Breaker seems just about equally effective for other setters, i.e. why would one Stealth Rock setter be more broken than another? The result is exactly the same: rocks or no rocks, and thus, I think it's borderline impossible to have a "broken" hazard setter. The predictability factor also seems not to apply in this situation, because its main two sets aren't between Physical and Special; they're between Special and Hazard Setter, which means most people who know the meta won't have to worry about sacking a mon because, easily enough, Great Wall (Blissey) will be undoubtedly a quick switch for anyone who might be weak to Zap Cannon.
 
+2 252+ SpA Deoxys-Speed Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 388-458 (54.3 - 64.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

How is blissey a counter if it gets 2hkod by +2 Focus blast and can't do anything in return?
 
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