Movepool Revisions - Arghonaut

[Umbreon Dan]

Approved and sponsored by rising_dusk.

If you are not an experienced member of the CAP community, it is strongly recommended that you do not post in this thread.

This thread is intended to contain intelligent discussion and commentary by experienced members of the CAP project regarding CAP movepools. As such, the content of this thread will be moderated more strictly than other threads on the forum. This is not a Policy Review thread, but requires intelligent posting and serious thought put into every post made.

Introduction:

This is the thread in which we will be revising arghonaut's movepool. All aspects of his movepool, including TM moves, Move Tutor moves, Level-Up moves, and Egg Moves will be revised according to the limits listed below and the requirements listed in this process guide article. All process details for the revisions can be found in this thread.

Base Stat Rating & Movepool Limits:

This is where the BSR Overall Rating and Movepool Limit are decided. In accordance with this process guide article, all CAPs must have a Overall BSR limit that is balanced by the maximum of that CAP's Very Good Move (VGM) limit. The calculator for the Overall BSR of a Pokemon can be found here.

arghonaut's Overall BSR: 331 VERY GOOD​

Resulting Movepool Size Limit: 75
Resulting VGM Limit: 35

Current Movepool
Reference: x-act's Winning Movepool
Move Count: 97
VGM Count: 46

Level-Up Moves

Total: 13
VGM: 3

H. Water Sport
H. Mud Sport
- Bubble
- Yawn
- Wrap
7. Yawn
10. Wrap
16. Arm Thrust
21. Aqua Jet
27. Mach Punch
32. Bubblebeam
36. Revenge
41. Aqua Ring
47. Body Slam
55. Submission
60. Punishment
67. Wring Out

TM/HM Moves

Total: 46 + 5
VGM: 24 + 1

Focus Punch
Water Pulse
Roar
Toxic
Hail
Hidden Power
Taunt
Ice Beam
Blizzard
Hyper Beam
Protect
Rain Dance
Safeguard
Frustration
Earthquake
Return
Dig
Brick Break
Double Team
Sludge Bomb
Rock Tomb
Aerial Ace
Torment
Facade
Secret Power
Rest
Attract
Thief
Snatch
False Swipe
Brine
Fling
Endure
Drain Punch
Embargo
Giga Impact
Stone Edge
Avalanche
Psych Up
Captivate
Rock Slide
Sleep Talk
Natural Gift
Poison Jab
Swagger
Substitute

HMs

Cut
Strength
Whirlpool
Rock Smash
Waterfall

Egg Moves

Total: 12
VGM: 5
Egg Groups: water 1, 3

- Bulk Up (Poliwrath/Buizel)
- Constrict (Tentacool/Omanyte/Octillery/Lileep)
- Cross Chop (Psyduck)
- Foresight (Mudkip/Squirtle/Psyduck/Lapras/Surskit)
- Haze (Wooper/Surskit/Squirtle/Poliwag/Tentacool/Krabby/Omanyte/Dratini/Remoraid/Mantine/Feebas)
- Headbutt (Slowpoke/Seel/Mantine/Bidoof/Buizel)
- Octazooka (Remoraid/Horsea)
- Recover (Corsola/Milotic/Shellos/Lileep)
- Scary Face (Totodile/Masquerain/Huntail)
- Spit Up (Pelipper/Lileep/Wooper/Spheal/Shellos)
- Stockpile (Pelipper/Lileep/Wooper/Spheal/Shellos)
- Swallow (Pelipper/Lileep/Wooper/Spheal/Shellos)-

Move Tutor Moves

Total: 19
VGM: 11

Aqua Tail
Block
Dive
Gunk Shot
Headbutt
Ice Punch
Icy Wind
Iron Head
Knock Off
Low Kick
Magic Coat
Mud-Slap
Snore
Sucker Punch
Superpower
ThunderPunch
Twister
Uproar
Zen Headbutt

New Movepool:

Move Count: 74
VGM Count: 35
​

Level-Up Moves

Total: 15
VGM: 4

- Bubble
- Yawn
- Wrap
7. Smokescreen
10. Yawn
16. Wrap
21. Arm Thrust
27. Aqua Jet
32. Mach Punch
36. Taunt
41. Revenge
47. Thief
55. Submission
60. Punishment
67. Focus Punch

TM/HM Moves

Total: 40 + 6
VGM: 21 + 2

Focus Punch
Water Pulse
Roar
Toxic
Hail
Hidden Power
Taunt
Ice Beam
Blizzard
Hyper Beam
Protect
Rain Dance
Frustration
Earthquake
Return
Brick Break
Double Team
Sludge Bomb
Rock Tomb
Torment
Facade
Secret Power
Rest
Attract
Thief
Snatch
Focus Blast
Brine
Fling
Endure
Drain Punch
Embargo
Stone Edge
Giga Impact
Captivate
Rock Slide
Sleep Talk
Natural Gift
Swagger
Substitute

HMs

cut
Strength
Whirlpool
Rock Smash
Surf
Waterfall

Egg Moves

Total: 9
VGM: 4
Egg Groups: water 1, 3

- Bulk Up (Poliwrath/Buizel)
- Cross Chop (Psyduck)
- Headbutt (Slowpoke/Seel/Mantine/Bidoof/Buizel)
- Octazooka (Remoraid/Horsea)
- Recover (Corsola/Milotic/Shellos/Lileep)
- Scary Face (Totodile/Masquerain/Huntail)

Move Tutor Moves

Total: 12
VGM: 6

Dive
Gunk Shot
Headbutt
Ice Punch
Icy Wind
Knock Off
Low Kick
Mud-Slap
Snore
Superpower
ThunderPunch
Vacuum Wave

Justification:
basically i had to chop off about 25 things so i made major cuts to moves that didn't belong flavour-wise and concept-wise (aerial ace, iron head, magic coat for example). sunny day is required on fighters for some reason but i left it off because arghonaut is a pirate. added vacuum wave, surf, and focus blast because i had to. stockpile family went because i really needed the space. in the end, i decided that, quite frankly, the typemove requirements alone pretty much fills up the movepool so i pretty much got rid of all the flavour, including poison moves, slashing moves, taunt, etc. even after that, i needed two more vgms gone so i said "fuck it" and got rid of aqua jet and mach punch (which really blows but if you have some better suggestion let me know)

 

[Zystral]

[17:23:34] <Zy> get rid of Sludge Bomb, Gunk Shot, Stone Edge and Avalanche
[17:23:36] <Zy> you don't need those

I'd consider adding the likes of Cut and Mach Punch back in, they're pretty important, flavour-wise. If you really wanna be squiddy, add Smokescreen. I'd get rid of Submission and maybe Haze, since Haze is almost pointless on Arghonaut unless you're up against Agility Scizor or RP Aggron (both of whom can't do shit to you) or some thing that boosts speed.

 

[Deck Knight]

Movepool eating.

Current Totals:
Moves: 79
VGM: 39

w/ Suggestions below:

Moves: 73
VGM: 35

Level-Up Moves

Total: 15 (2 repeats)
VGM: 3 -> 5

- Bubble
- Yawn
- Wrap
7. Yawn*
10. Wrap
16. Arm Thrust
21. Water Pulse
27. Brine -> Aqua Jet*/Mach Punch*
32. Revenge
36. Thief
41. Body Slam*
47. Submission -> Hammer Arm*
55. Punishment
60. Focus Punch*
67. Giga Impact -> Smokescreen

A bit too many TMs in here for my taste. If you can add it in I'd find a place for Smokescreen, maybe over Giga Impact (with a level re-arrange). I really think Arghonaut needs some form of priority to help it stop stat-uppers, so either Aqua Jet or Mach Punch is fine.

TM/HMs

Total: 50 (4 repeats)
VGM: 27 (1 repeat) -> 25 (1 repeat)

TM01-Focus Punch*
TM03-Water Pulse
TM05-Roar*
TM06-Toxic*
TM07-Hail
TM10-Hidden Power*
TM11-Sunny Day
TM12-Taunt*
TM13-Ice Beam*
TM14-Blizzard*
TM15-Hyper Beam*
TM17-Protect*
TM18-Rain Dance*
TM20-Safeguard
TM21-Frustration
TM26-Earthquake*
TM27-Return*
TM31-Brick Break*
TM32-Double Team
TM36-Sludge Bomb*
TM39-Rock Tomb
TM40-Aerial Ace*
TM41-Torment*
TM42-Facade*
TM43-Secret Power
TM44-Rest*
TM45-Attract
TM46-Thief
TM49-Snatch
TM52-Focus Blast*
TM54-False Swipe
TM55-Brine
TM66-Fling
TM58-Endure
TM60-Drain Punch
TM63-Embargo
TM68-Giga Impact
TM71-Stone Edge*
TM72-Avalanche*
TM77-Psych Up
TM78-Captivate
TM80-Rock Slide*
TM82-Sleep Talk*
TM83-Natural Gift
TM84-Poison Jab*
TM87-Swagger
TM90-Substitute*
HM03-Surf*
HM04-Strength
HM05-Whirlpool
HM06-Rock Smash
HM07-Waterfall*

Sunny Day is still T-M required, and isn't a VGM so no worries. Sludge Bomb and Poison Jab are the easiest to send off. Pick up 2 VGM right there. You need to remove a few other moves as well so I'd recommend Safeguard because it doesn't really fit the pirate theme (odd stuff like Snatch and Embargo does).

Egg Moves

Total: 7 -> 6
VGM: 4 - 3
Egg Groups: water 1, 3

- Bulk Up* (Poliwrath/Buizel)
- Cross Chop* (Psyduck)
- Haze* (Wooper/Surskit/Squirtle/Poliwag/Tentacool/Krabby/Omanyte/Dratini/Remoraid/Mantine/Feebas)
- Headbutt (Slowpoke/Seel/Mantine/Bidoof/Buizel)
- Octazooka (Remoraid/Horsea)
- Recover* (Corsola/Milotic/Shellos/Lileep)
- Scary Face (Totodile/Masquerain/Huntail)

Good enough. Everything here is solid as it stands, but I think a better idea might be to replace Cross Chop with Hammer Arm somewhere else in the movepool. Cross Chop has a few odd M-M requirements and you could slash a few if you rid yourself of it.

Tutor Moves

Total Moves: 12 -> 9
VGM: 6 -> 3

Dive
Gunk Shot
Headbutt
Ice Punch*
Icy Wind
Knock Off*
Low Kick*
Mud-Slap
Snore
Superpower*
ThunderPunch*
Vacuum Wave*

Knock Off and Superpower seem like the easiest things to lose, that will get your VGM down to the right number. If you replaced Cross Chop in breed with Hammer Arm you could take off Thunderpunch and free up room for a priority move, and drop Superpower because you'd have a more reliable Fighting STAB

So to summarize: Replace Water Pulse or Brine with Aqua Jet and Submission with Hammer Arm, Dump Sludge Bomb/Poison Jab, axe Cross Chop, then dump Knock Off, Superpower, and Thunderpunch. That should get you where you need to be, and you can play around from there as you see fit.

 

[Rising_Dusk]

By my count, you are at:

Total: 75 (5 repeats)
VGMs: 36 (2 repeats)
​

There are a bunch of errors in your first post, too. Brine and Water Pulse are not VGMs, for one, and you missed two T-M moves for the Fighting-type, Taunt and Sunny Day. There are a lot of strange VGMs on the movepool, too, and the flavor movepool is a little sketchy. I have the following recommendations:

• Add Taunt and Sunny Day in the TM move list
• Replace Vacuum Wave with Mach Punch
• Replace Sludge Bomb with Aqua Jet
• Add some flavor to the level-up movepool in the form of Sludge, Smokescreen, etc. (Ink stuff!) I won't lie, actually, the Level-Up Movepool is really unexciting and honestly pretty terrible. I almost recommend redoing it entirely to have it make some sense flavor-wise.
• Yawn, Body Slam, Superpower, and Knock Off are all pretty silly on Arghonaut. If you get rid of them, you can probably fit some other cool things in there.

Anyway, I have attached my spreadsheet so far for this movepool. It is at the current state, as you have it, and hasn't factored in any of my suggested changes.

 

[Deck Knight]

Vacuum Wave is a T-M for Fighting as well, Taunt isn't.

Did you get your CAP 11 preparations mixed up with your Arghonaut review?

 

[Rising_Dusk]

Oof, you're right, I did. Keep Vacuum Wave, ditch Taunt, sorry.

 

[Umbreon Dan]

thanks dk, zy, rd

okay i just did a touch-up, including minor changes to the level-up moves. i didn't want to put hammer arm in there because it would be blatantly in contrast to x-act's original intention. body slam, stone edge, avalanche, haze, and safeguard are gone, freeing up quite a bit; i restored the priority moves as well as smokescreen and cut. i'm still on the fence about sludge bomb and gunk shot; it's looking at this point like they may not have to go. cross chop is still there as of now, but it's really a pretty useless move so if it turns out there are more flavour moves that we want then i can easily drop it. thoughts on headbutt?

on sunny day: because the whole point of these movepool revisions is to make movepools consistent with game freak's, this really doesn't belong, "required" or not. it might be consistent that many fighting pokemon learn sunny day, but it's also consistent that almost no waters get it, and if we don't consider that, then the process is flawed. for an issue like this, sense should prevail over our own fabricated set of rules. for reference, the poliwhirl family, being the only water/fighting types in the game, don't have access to sunny day.

this brings my current count to 74/34. imo the egg moves list is looking kind of smallish

 

[Rising_Dusk]

on sunny day: because the whole point of these movepool revisions is to make movepools consistent with game freak's, this really doesn't belong, "required" or not. it might be consistent that many fighting pokemon learn sunny day, but it's also consistent that almost no waters get it, and if we don't consider that, then the process is flawed. for an issue like this, sense should prevail over our own fabricated set of rules. for reference, the poliwhirl family, being the only water/fighting types in the game, don't have access to sunny day.

The Poliwrath family is also not considered as having "good" Pokemon in it. However, you raise a good point about Water-types, so I am willing to forfeit Sunny Day. In my movepool guide, it even recommends to not give it to Water-types.

Also, according to my counts, you sit at:

Moves: 72 (5 repeats)
VGMs: 33 (3 repeats)
​

This gives you a bit of flexibility. I think you should re-add Stone Edge and Avalanche, as those two really do make sense on Arghonaut (I'm cool with losing Body Slam). I also don't really care one way or the other on Cross Chop / Hammer Arm / whatever. If you want to redo that bit, fine, but it's not a major point on Arghonaut. I'm pleased that you readded both priority moves. Otherwise, I can't think of any major VGMs that you're missing. As usual, see attached spreadsheet.

EDIT: I think you should add back Taunt over Avalanche, actually. It does fit the pirate-theme of Arghonaut really well. I'd almost go so far as to add it to the level-up movepool over Brine. (He gets Brine by TM anyway) Taunt also helps Arghonaut against stall and general status as well, so I say it over Avalanche.

If you add back Taunt and Stone Edge and do the above adjustment to the level-up pool, I think this movepool is actually ready to go.

 

[Arcanite]

Name any Water pokemon that has Sunny Day?

We have a conflict and I would go with no sunny day.

I think Taunt should stay. A Pirate should surely be able to taunt!

 

[Deck Knight]

Name any Water pokemon that has Sunny Day?

We have a conflict and I would go with no sunny day.

I think Taunt should stay. A Pirate should surely be able to taunt!

Corsola, Ludicolo, Octillery, Palkia, Slowbro/Slowking, Suicune, Surskit, and Vaporeon are all the water types with Sunny Day.

It's not common by any means, but it isn't non-existent.

 

[Mattman324]

Corsola, Ludicolo, Octillery, Palkia, Slowbro/Slowking, Suicune, Surskit, and Vaporeon are all the water types with Sunny Day.

It's not common by any means, but it isn't non-existent.

It should be noted that in the case of Ludicolo it's also type-required, and Octillery and the Slows probubly require it because they get Flamethrower. And Vaporeon gets it because Eevee isn't water.

You raise a good point, but I don't see how Argonaut needs Sunny day anyway: It doesn't really fit in the movepool, and it certainly doesn't fit in with flavor moves.

 

[Deck Knight]

It should be noted that in the case of Ludicolo it's also type-required, and Octillery and the Slows probubly require it because they get Flamethrower. And Vaporeon gets it because Eevee isn't water.

You raise a good point, but I don't see how Argonaut needs Sunny day anyway: It doesn't really fit in the movepool, and it certainly doesn't fit in with flavor moves.

Gyarados also gets Flamethrower/Fire Blast yet doesn't have Sunny Day. In either case I don't think it's necessary either, I just wanted to cite that it can and has been on Waters. I always liked using Sunny Day Octillery in UU. Completely surprises people and walls Water attacks.

Back to Dan: Just add in Taunt and Stone Edge in TMs and you're good to go. Both of those moves are competitively viable on Arghonaut and fit the flavor as well.

 

[Rising_Dusk]

Movepool looks good now. Just gave it the final check-over and I approve of everything. Good work, Dan. I have attached my final spreadsheet on the matter to this post as usual.