My First RMT : Baton Pass

skyfox500

This is my first time posting a RMT here, so let me know if I missed one of the rules or something. I've played with this team for a couple weeks, and it works decently most of the time, then there are times I get completely blown away. I think it could use some improvement, but I'm not sure on what. This team is designed for Shoddy, but I added a note near the end about using it on Wi-fi.

Changes are in Bold


Lead:

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Ninjask (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Speed Boost
EVs: 248 HP/52 Atk/184 Def/24 Spd
Jolly nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
- Baton Pass
- Protect
- Substitute
- X-Scissor
---



Ninjask is my lead, and he primarily acts as a speed passer. I'm using the standard Dedicated Speed Passer set. The speed EV's allow Ninjask to outspeed most scarfers after a protect, and the HP and defense EV's let me survive some priority attacks. X-scissor to do a little damage when I get the chance.

I typically alternate between protect and substitute to get speed boosts in, then baton pass out, usually to Vaporeon or Celebi, but I can pass to Smeargle too if I can keep a Sub up while I pass.


The Passers:


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Vaporeon (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 252 HP/200 Def/6 Spd/52 SDef
Calm nature (+SDef, -Atk)
- Baton Pass
- Acid Armor
- Aqua Ring
- Ice Beam
---

Unless my opponents pokemon is known to use grass or electric attacks, Vaporeon is usually my first switch-in after ninjask.

Vaporeon is here to provide primary healing support, and baton pass Acid Armor boosts. I've opted to use a more specially defensive EV spread than the standard set, because Vaporeon is enduring hits more than switching in to them. I don't know of a damage calc. to use, but I think that the Sp. Defense EV's and nature have turned some 2HKO's into 3HKO's (with Thunderbolt/Grass Knot). Also, Vaporeon's defense is already
being boosted by Acid Armor.

I'm currently trying out Aqua Ring over Wish, it doesn't give me as much healing immediately, but I don't have to keep passing wish back and forth.
I don't know exactly how to even out defenses and stuff to be most effective, so let me know if there's a better EV spread for my purpose.




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Celebi @ Leftovers
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 180 HP/252 Def/26 Spd/52 SDef
Bold nature (+Def, -Atk)
- Baton Pass
- Calm Mind
- Recover
- Grass Knot
---

Celebi is my other main boost passer, and usually only has problems with Heatran (met by a pass to Vaporeon) and Blissey (who I stall with recover until I get Calm Mind boosts.)


Celebi passes Calm Mind boosts, and can semi-sweep with Grass Knot. Recover let's it stay alive and stuff. Also, thanks to natural cure, it can take statuses for the team, barring sleep, but it can survive those too if it gets some Calm Mind / Acid Armor boosts, contributing to Celebi's natural bulkiness.




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Scizor@Life Orb
Adamant
Technician
252 HP, 84 Atk, 172 Def.
-Swords Dance
-Bullet Punch
-Baton Pass
-Roost
---

I've replaced Umbreon with Scizor to pass Sword Dances, and get another priority move on my team. With the Ev's, he can take physical hits decently too, and roost off the damage.




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Smeargle (M) @ Shed Shell
Ability: Own Tempo
EVs: 96 HP / 120 Def / 40 SpD / 252 Sp
Jolly nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
- Baton Pass
- Ingrain
- Spore
- Substitute
---


Smeargle being defensively weak as he is, he usually only comes in after a roar, if ninjask can keep a Sub. up for a turn, or after I've passed a few (Sp.) Defense boosts.

Smeargle sets up ingrain to prevent phazing, spores foes, and can set up subsitute, usually when he first comes in. I used the EV spread recommended for maximum defenses, but is there one particular side of attacks it would be best to "wall" to help smeargle survive longer? Because sometimes he has to set up ingrain before getting passed speed or defence boosts.



The Receiver:


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Lucario (M) @ Lum Berry
Ability: Inner Focus
EVs: 188 Atk/196 Spd/126 SAtk
Naughty nature (+Atk, -SDef)
- Close Combat
- Extremespeed
- Shadow Ball
- Hidden Power [Ice]
---

I chose lucario for my receiver because he can go mixed rather easily, and has a decent movepool to go with it. I based the EV spread on the agility set, because it's similar (they both use mixed attacking). Lucario is also immune to toxic spikes.

Close combat is mainly for Blissey, and a strong Stab in general. Extremespeed to avoid scarfers if I fail to get speed boosts, and outrun some priority moves as well. Shadow ball to hit ghosts, and HP [Ice] to take down dragons and gliscor.

I use Lum berry to avoid being ruined by a late-game sleeper or paralysis.


If I were to take this team to Wi-fi, what changes would you recommend if I were to replace HP [Ice] with Ice punch? Aside from possibly adding Sword dance in the team somewhere.


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Particular threats for my team include taunt, roar/whirlwind, entry hazards, and Trick.


Taunt: I try to keep at least one attack on each member in case of taunt, but sometimes I still get forced out. Anything I can do about this, besides predicting and going to someone who can hurt/wall the taunter?


Roar: Usually I wait it out until smeargle gets roared in, the only time I was really destroyed by this so far was when SR was down and Ninjask was brought in 3 times in a row.

Entry hazards: There's no rapid spinner that also learns baton pass (outside of smeargle), so I made sure I could recover or wish off damage easily enough. Ninjask is the only member of my team that's weak to Stealth Rock. Toxic spikes can still hurt half my team pretty bad, though. (Celebi has natural cure, so it's not too bad for it.)


Trick: Not much I can do about this, unless Umbreon is in + Speed boosts. Trick has become pretty common, but if I can predict when the trick is coming, I can just immediately baton pass (if tricker is faster) or baton pass out, then baton pass again after the trick (if tricker is slower). I can usually deal with sacrificing a member or two that way, as long as lucario isn't one of them.


A new threat I have realized is sweeper Zapdos, it now hits every pokemon on my team, barring Smeargle (who isn't meant to be taking hits anyway), for super effective damage.
 
I ran Baton Pass before Platinum came out and it did very well. However, the main thing that I found to kill my team wasn't the Taunt/Roar/Whirlwind/Hazards (since they were already there) or even now Trick very much since a Substitute blocks it. The biggest weakness is priority moves. You didn't list this huge threat but it is one. If they bring in Scizor and begin Bullet Punching, it hurts your chain a lot. Of course things like Vaporeon and Celebi can take it, but Ninjask and Smeargle can't. Just try to keep in mind that the rise in Prioirty is a threat you need to keep in mind.
 
Also, if you're hypothetically going to have four speed boosts by the time you BP to Lucario, why bother with dumping any EVs into Speed?

Personally, I think you should slap a sash on Ninjask and give HIM the ability to SD, since right now your only attack boosting link is a semi-unreliable Smeargle.

I also would recommend a Scisor, Blaziken, or Ape in the place of Umbreon, just in case your original sweeper gets shut down. And even putting Yawn in the 4th slot on Vaporeon can potentially shut down an opponent that was considering roaring to end your chain, but you'd have to get them on the switch AND you can still get taunted. I don't know man I'm mostly a newbie.
 
Hryodbe said:
Also, if you're hypothetically going to have four speed boosts by the time you BP to Lucario, why bother with dumping any EVs into Speed?
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Ninjask doesn't always get speed boosts passed more than once, if my chain gets broken by something.


Hryodbe said:
Personally, I think you should slap a sash on Ninjask and give HIM the ability to SD, since right now your only attack boosting link is a semi-unreliable Smeargle.
Click to expand...

I've tried that in the past, and Ninjask doesn't get near as much speed passed on average. Also, Focus sash is ruined by the ever-popular sandstream. (T-tar and Hippowdon)


Hryodbe said:
I also would recommend a Scizor, Blaziken, or Ape in the place of Umbreon, just in case your original sweeper gets shut down. And even putting Yawn in the 4th slot on Vaporeon can potentially shut down an opponent that was considering roaring to end your chain, but you'd have to get them on the switch AND you can still get taunted. I don't know man I'm mostly a newbie.
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I'll consider those. Having a back-up wouldn't be a bad idea, though I'm still looking for someone with Taunt.

Yawn on Vaporeon could work, though it would be more effective if I could get some sort of entry hazards of my own down. Or maybe if I kept Umbreon and immediately Mean-looked them.
 
There's a good article in C&C on baton passing. One of the points is that every member should have Substitute, to prevent critical hits from ruining the chain. But I doubt that you can fit them in.

It might be better to have another receiver, since Baton Passing doesn't always work out the way you want it to. I suggest removing Umbreon and adding something like Scizor.

Scizor@Life Orb
Adamant
Technician
252 Atk, 252 HP, 4 Spe
-Swords Dance
-Bullet Punch/X-Scissor
-Baton Pass
-Roost

This gets you some Attack boosts, and it can use the Speed passed by Ninjask to Baton Pass quickly. It can hit very hard as well. Since you are going to boost attack with SD, you can probably put those attack EV's into defence.

On Vaporeon, try using Ice Beam over Surf. You have no way of beating Dragons except Lucario, and that's pretty unreliable, since he has been EVed assuming he gets some speed boosts. Vaporeon gets rid of your Dragon weakness.

I would seriously recommend using Grass Knot on Celebi. There is a reason it is the superior option in the sets: it's targets in OU are heavy. Think Hippowdon and Tyranitar.
 
Erazor said:
There's a good article in C&C on baton passing. One of the points is that every member should have Substitute, to prevent critical hits from ruining the chain. But I doubt that you can fit them in.
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Yeah, I've read the article. To put more substitutes on my team, I'd need to get rid of either healing or my sole attack move.


Erazor said:
It might be better to have another receiver, since Baton Passing doesn't always work out the way you want it to. I suggest removing Umbreon and adding something like Scizor.

Scizor@Life Orb
Adamant
Technician
252 Atk, 252 HP, 4 Spe
-Swords Dance
-Bullet Punch/X-Scissor
-Baton Pass
-Roost

This gets you some Attack boosts, and it can use the Speed passed by Ninjask to Baton Pass quickly. It can hit very hard as well. Since you are going to boost attack with SD, you can probably put those attack EV's into defence.

On Vaporeon, try using Ice Beam over Surf. You have no way of beating Dragons except Lucario, and that's pretty unreliable, since he has been EVed assuming he gets some speed boosts. Vaporeon gets rid of your Dragon weakness.


I would seriously recommend using Grass Knot on Celebi. There is a reason it is the superior option in the sets: it's targets in OU are heavy. Think Hippowdon and Tyranitar.
Click to expand...



I'll try those suggestions out and see how it works.
 
I've tried out your suggestions. Scizor is working pretty good as a team member, bar the new Zapdos weakness. (I'll have to find a way to counter it. It's swept me way too many times today with some critical hits.)

Grass Knot over Energy Ball, I haven't seen that much difference yet (or maybe I just don't notice), but Grass Knot has more PP anyway, so it's all good.


I'm still trying out Ice Beam on Vaporeon, but so far, no dragons have stayed in on him. The only major difference in coverage I've noticed have been against rain teams, in which I now hit Ludicolo and Kingdra for neutral damage, instead of 4x resist, and I lose Heatran coverage (who I can still wall decently)
 
The reason that dragons don't stay in are because Vaporeon frequently runs Ice Beam on it's sets. That allows you to Wish. Speaking of which, don't use Aqua Ring. Wish Passing is much more beneficial to the team.

On Smeargle, just run 252 HP and 252 speed.
 
skyfox500 said:
I've tried out your suggestions. Scizor is working pretty good as a team member, bar the new Zapdos weakness. (I'll have to find a way to counter it. It's swept me way too many times today with some critical hits.)

Grass Knot over Energy Ball, I haven't seen that much difference yet (or maybe I just don't notice), but Grass Knot has more PP anyway, so it's all good.

I'm still trying out Ice Beam on Vaporeon, but so far, no dragons have stayed in on him. The only major difference in coverage I've noticed have been against rain teams, in which I now hit Ludicolo and Kingdra for neutral damage, instead of 4x resist, and I lose Heatran coverage (who I can still wall decently)
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Zapdos is hard for BP chains to beat. I would reccommend Hypno. If you need a special wall, he is your one stop shop. You can try him over Celebi, as their roles are largely the same. Hypno also gives an answer to MixMence and Infernape, which can be trouble.

As for your finisher, Medicham does the job well too. A simple 252/252 spread with BP/ Brick Break/ Fire Punch/ Return deals with everything in OU, if you have a Substitute up. I would do about 15% damage to Cresselia to make sure that Medicham can kill her, as there is a chance if your opponent is running some really retarded defensive spread you won't kill. For the item, use Lum Berry. This not only makes sure you can get Medicham in, even if your opponent has Toxic Spikes, but it also stop status from ruining your sweep, in case you have to pass early without all your boosts, and Cresselia isn't quite KOed. The advantage of using Medicham is that you can take care of certian threats without having to use the "all or nothing" approach that Lucario often has. If you keep Lucario though, use Ice Punch over HP Ice and Brick Break over Close Combat. You still kill everything, and don't have to worry about some pritory user ruining your Lucario when its defenses drop from CC.

As for the Substitute suggestion, it is a good idea, although I can see what you are trying to do. I would, however, reccommend to put Substitute on Vaporeon. That way, when you finally pass to Lucario, you can make sure that Blissey can't break your Substitute with Secismic Toss. Aqua Ring/ Wish isn't as big of a deal when all of your BP users have healing moves! Also, move about 100 EVs from Defense to Special Defense on Vaporeon, as Acid Armor helps boost your defenses.

Ignore the suggestion of the person who suggested to change Smeargle's EV spread. With this spread, you get the best overall defenses, and with 252 HP/ 252 Spe, you don't. Also, I would go ahead and remove LO from Scizor, and just use Leftovers. You might also want to consider using Iron Head over Bullet Punch, and Iron Head hits harder, you should have speed, and the flinch rate can come in handy.

Your BP team does look good. Good luck!
 
I've tried out Substitute and Hypno. They're both working pretty well, my only big issue now is that without healing available, sometimes they don't get off the boosts they need to.
 
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