SS OU My VoltTurn Team, Any help appreciated

[robynxyamada]

So Overall I've been out of the competitive scene for a while, and I just wanted some insights on a team I've come up with with some success. I would appreciate some critique if at all possible to help me improve.

Pokepaste - https://pokepast.es/2c521a9507415e3e

Cinderace @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Libero
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Pyro Ball
- High Jump Kick
- U-turn
- Zen Headbutt

Cinderace is where I started to really get the idea for this team off of the ground. U-turn is obvious there for momentum and a scouting tool. Pyro Ball is because its a powerful move with almost 0 drawbacks. High Jump Kick is there also to give another option to hit Pokemon not weak to fire. Zen Headbutt was chosen over Gunk Shot to deal with Toxapex (I know Gunk Shot helps secure more KOs but I thought an answer to Toxapex would have been better in this instance). Ideally, Cinderace's job early game is to scout and generate enough offensive pressure that will help other teammates finish.

Landorus-Therian (M) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 Atk / 12 Def / 244 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Stone Edge
- Earthquake
- U-turn
- Knock Off

Landorus-Therian was selected to break past problematic Pokemon. Overall the EV Spread and the moveset are pretty standard and forms a decently good physical duo with Cinderace. U-turn allows it to scout and grab momentum, Knock Off is to hinder Pokemon reliant on their items. The EdgeQuake combo is still very good, Earthquake is obvious STAB, and Stone Edge is another hard hitting move that hits flying types like Mandibuzz and Zapdos.

Magearna @ Choice Specs
Ability: Soul-Heart
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Trick
- Fleur Cannon
- Flash Cannon
- Volt Switch

Magearna completes the VoltTurn core with both Cinderace and Landorus-Therian. Other pokemon came to mind but Soul-Heart is such a good ability that it was hard to pass this pokemon up. Also Steel/Fairy is surprisingly a good defensive typing (at least I thought it was surprising) which can come in clutch in certain situations. Volt Switch is self-explanatory. Trick is to cripple tanks and walls and can grab some potentially good items for the match. Fleur Cannon and Flash Cannon provide STAB and in general are good damaging moves.

Tapu Fini @ Leftovers
Ability: Misty Surge
EVs: 60 HP / 252 Def / 196 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Taunt
- Surf
- Draining Kiss

Calm Mind Tapu Fini holds this team together defensively. With it being bulky on both ends of the spectrum after a Calm ,Mind or 2, Tapu Fini compresses the tank roll and is something to fall back on if momentum and pressure is lost. Draining Kiss helps Tapu Fini stay healthy especially after a Calm Mind. Surf is just overall good STAB, but I'm kind of on the fence to replace it with Scald for the burn chance. Taunt helps stop setup attempts and in general just good utility. Also I think Misty Terrain is pretty good.

Excadrill @ Focus Sash
Ability: Mold Breaker
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Earthquake
- Iron Head
- Toxic
- Stealth Rock

This Pokemon is awesome and is the suicide lead of this team. Excadrill is supposed to setup rocks and cripple/chip as much as possible before going down. Earthquake and Iron Head are for STAB and hit a good chunk of Pokemon in OU. Toxic is to cripple any Pokemon that opens against Excadrill and can help secure a KO in some cases.

Zapdos @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Static
EVs: 248 HP / 28 Def / 232 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Defog
- Roost
- Hurricane
- Volt Switch

As I didnt have any hazard removal on this team I saw the need for defog and/or rapid spin. While there are a lot of good options for defog in OU, I felt Zapdos fit this team the best. Zapdos learns Volt Switch which synergizes with the rest of the team nicely. Roost is to keep Zapdos healthy throughout the match since it cant hold leftovers. Hurricane is the best overall STAB Zapdos gets and does a decent amount of damage even uninvested.



Threats: (I dont know every threat but these I know are the 2 I know for sure)
Spectrier: I dont have a solid answer to Spectrier on this team for the most part, but I havent really run in Spectrier to much yet so it really hasnt been an issue yet.

Magearna: Magearna still poses a problem as my 2 defensive answers are Zapdos and Tapu Fini, both of which I realize do not have a lot of ways to damage Magearna. Cinderace is probably the best answer I have, but theres nothing much I can do outside of that.



Conclusion:
Overall I like the team, but I do think it is solid. I know that it has its flaws and is far from perfect.

 

[Smashburn]

Hi! This team is overall "okay," but as you said, it has its flaws. Currently, I like the idea of suicide lead Exca, but its speed tier and weaknesses make it quite susceptible to common threats that can easily deal with it (especially when not having Rock Slide with few faster coverages for the birds and Volcarona), either by momentum or type coverage and power (mons such as Landorus, Urshifu-RS Gapdos, Swampert, Rillaboom, Dragapult, Mandibuzz, Ferrothorn, Kartana, etc.). Overall, I think it works better as the more common spinner mold breaker set. If you want a suicide set, I would recommend trying to build a core around Suicide Lando, it gets a slightly better speed tier, decent bulk, intimidate, coverage, and the ability to come out if needed and be used again, as opposed to Excadrill who has trouble getting in again with so many weaknesses and checks with such little coverage without boosts or the utility of the usual spinner on Sand Teams or fitting in otherwise.

Alternatively, you could use a special bulk to help cover both of the mentioned weaknesses to Spec and Mag, which is Blissey. Blissey also gets Stealth Rock and even Teleport, which I think as a whole being as it walls so much (although not physical leads) makes it a lot better if you would lead something off. It also gets some pretty good common partners and do well with other members of this team, and makes it harder for the opponent to deal with. I think personally my favorite is Toxapex, the godsend defensive mon of the OU. Great typing, coverage, and makes for a good core. It- along with other regen mons- get good use in momentum based teams, and having the coverage from Blissey too to cover for the current weaknesses of team, I think would improve it.

Lastly, I'd say you could probably incorporate both of these changes, but I wouldn't really do that since Suicide Lando + Stall cores doesn't really work well, it is better in more offensively based teams.

 

[glava222]

I do agree with smashburn's toughts about suicide lead excadrill, but I would like to offer a different lead than suicide lando, and that would be skarmory. The reasons for this are that voltturn teams tend to force a lot of switches, and skarmory with access to both rocks and spikes abuses that very well. It's also got a decent MU against a lot of other leads like lando, hippo, any defensive one... oh and it also comes with an inbuilt sash which guarantees at least one hazard up each match, and I think you will get more most of the time. you do lose an electric immunity and gain a weakness, but that shouldn't be as much of a problem as you still have a scarf lando. whirlwind might be a consideration as a last ditch effort to stop spectrier behind sub, but that would leave you without either roost or an offensive move.

 

[Smashburn]

I do agree with smashburn's toughts about suicide lead excadrill, but I would like to offer a different lead than suicide lando, and that would be skarmory. The reasons for this are that voltturn teams tend to force a lot of switches, and skarmory with access to both rocks and spikes abuses that very well. It's also got a decent MU against a lot of other leads like lando, hippo, any defensive one... oh and it also comes with an inbuilt sash which guarantees at least one hazard up each match, and I think you will get more most of the time. you do lose an electric immunity and gain a weakness, but that shouldn't be as much of a problem as you still have a scarf lando. whirlwind might be a consideration as a last ditch effort to stop spectrier behind sub, but that would leave you without either roost or an offensive move.

I would definitely agree, I had Corviknight and Skarmory in my head while looking at this team. Personally though, I would split up Spikes and Rocks just to keep the team going. Realistically, you will want more than 1 turn of hazards since this team has no anti-spin or defogger, and cannot really punish anything that comes in, meaning that once Skarmory is dropped, your chances of keeping around hazards for the team has stopped. Of course, this can be played around with momentum in the team, but personally I think this team would have to waste a spot by putting Skarmory in most matches by using two hazards, based off of its uses and synergy with this team.

Two electric weaknesses,
two fire weaknesses,
two ice weaknesses,
two fire resists (both of which have no reliable form of recovery on those types)
one electric immunity (notice, that with your win con and your hazard setter you see a pattern with Lando)
four ice resists (solid coverage for offensive ice types, but you have to dance around freeze dry and fear taking damage since nothing resists a Specs FD from the uncommon Vanilla Cone or Kyurem)
four grass resists (solid coverage for Rilla)
3 water resists (although still having trouble with Swampart because of dual typing and immunities+resists)
3 ground immunities (well placed due to each of the flying types being able to get some utility usage before needing to come out or keep momentum)

The typing coverages listed above are what I think is important to know when considering what to do for the team, and then I have my usual checklist for OU teams which are just the basics.

Toxapex threats- 4 (very good in terms of keeping things moving and forcing switches)
Magearna threats- 2 (both do well, but can easily be stopped and allow for setup)
Spectrier threats- 0 (very concerning for the team, being as nothing can stop Scarf Spectrier once it gets a KO)
Rain threat checks- 2 (also very concerning, running into Barra seems to be your worst nightmare since it gets momentum and your 2 switch-ins don't exactly complement each other, being as Fini makes it so static is useless. If you keep Zapdos in you risk getting 2-3 KOed by Liquidation and your other party members hate the Flip Turn, so you would be stuck switching into Fini, meaning that you just boosted Barra's ability to wreck your team since you can no longer speed check it. As always you can play around this, but it is tricky with the team)
Hazard checks- 1
Status checks- 3

Other fixes:

having 12 Def Lando isn't bad, but it does allow other scarfers and setups to outspeed it much easier, most Landorus-T are run with 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe now.

That Fini set isn't awful, but typically you want something like the bulky set from Smogon, I forgot most of the EVs but I know it runs 252 HP, not 60.

 

[robynxyamada]

Currently, I like the idea of suicide lead Exca, but its speed tier and weaknesses make it quite susceptible to common threats that can easily deal with it (especially when not having Rock Slide with few faster coverages for the birds and Volcarona), either by momentum or type coverage and power (mons such as Landorus, Urshifu-RS Gapdos, Swampert, Rillaboom, Dragapult, Mandibuzz, Ferrothorn, Kartana, etc.). Overall, I think it works better as the more common spinner mold breaker set. If you want a suicide set, I would recommend trying to build a core around Suicide Lando, it gets a slightly better speed tier, decent bulk, intimidate, coverage, and the ability to come out if needed and be used again, as opposed to Excadrill who has trouble getting in again with so many weaknesses and checks with such little coverage without boosts or the utility of the usual spinner on Sand Teams or fitting in otherwise.

Honestly that idea did come up but I ended choosing Lando-T as a Choice Scarfer but I do see the benefits of Suicide Lead Lando-T. So implementing this change, what team member would be a good fit since I have to switch out the Excadrill slot since Lando-T will be taking over that?

Alternatively, you could use a special bulk to help cover both of the mentioned weaknesses to Spec and Mag, which is Blissey. Blissey also gets Stealth Rock and even Teleport, which I think as a whole being as it walls so much (although not physical leads) makes it a lot better if you would lead something off. It also gets some pretty good common partners and do well with other members of this team, and makes it harder for the opponent to deal with. I think personally my favorite is Toxapex, the godsend defensive mon of the OU. Great typing, coverage, and makes for a good core. It- along with other regen mons- get good use in momentum based teams, and having the coverage from Blissey too to cover for the current weaknesses of team, I think would improve it

What set would be good for Blissey? honestly Blissey does sound like a great idea.

 

[Smashburn]

Honestly that idea did come up but I ended choosing Lando-T as a Choice Scarfer but I do see the benefits of Suicide Lead Lando-T. So implementing this change, what team member would be a good fit since I have to switch out the Excadrill slot since Lando-T will be taking over that?



What set would be good for Blissey? honestly Blissey does sound like a great idea.

For the Landorus change, the core might need some rebuilding. Landorus with the typical sash suicide set is meant to set up momentum for incoming mons (either by Rocks, U-Turn, or Explosion), like in Hyper Offense teams. Currently, this team is more stall based, and changes to the team would essentially turn it into a HO team, rather than the current style. If you want to play with that style you're more than welcome to and I can do that, but with that being said, it would change the core of the team, so I leave it up to you.

For Blissey, you'll want to get some more coverage for it. Since Zapdos and Fini don't complement each other, you could use Clefable in the core. This allows you to try out Zapdos still and have some flexibility with a strong fairy type, as well as get a momentum mon. Clefable could be a way of preventing status and opening up Blissey to be more of a wall with Aromatherapy, and while running this set you can get a mon that stops setup sweepers with its Unaware ability + Aromatherpy. Unfortunately, Teleport isn't available for Clefable when it uses Soft Boiled, so the set will have to be Aromatherapy, Moonblast, Soft Boiled, and the last move can be up to you. In situations where I can't use fini on certain teams, I like to run Clefable with Calm Mind in the last slot. Fini seemed to be your win condition, so having Clefable- who also gets good utility, setup and recovery- is a very nice option. If you choose that set, you can use the Blissey with Teleport, rocks, soft boiled, and Seismic Toss / Shadow Ball (Shadow Ball is used to help check Spectrier). I think the core of Blissey and Clef could help the team move and check more threats, making it harder for the team to be knocked over so easily. This pairs well with Zapdos too due to Static. However, the team now suffers from status loss, so do with that as you will, but I would recommend rounding it out some more.

 

[robynxyamada]

For the Landorus change, the core might need some rebuilding. Landorus with the typical sash suicide set is meant to set up momentum for incoming mons (either by Rocks, U-Turn, or Explosion), like in Hyper Offense teams. Currently, this team is more stall based, and changes to the team would essentially turn it into a HO team, rather than the current style. If you want to play with that style you're more than welcome to and I can do that, but with that being said, it would change the core of the team, so I leave it up to you.

OK thank this is very informative. Honestly I do like the more Offensive style so prob will go with the Lando-T suicide lead. any suggestions to go in a more Hyper Offense route?

 

[Smashburn]

OK thank this is very informative. Honestly I do like the more Offensive style so prob will go with the Lando-T suicide lead. any suggestions to go in a more Hyper Offense route?

In HO teams, it's as the name states, very offensive. It carries a lot of powerful mons in combinations with a lot of momentum and sweepings potential to win matches. Typically, I start with a core of Koko, Rillaboom, Suicide Lando, and Hawlucha, and pair it up with a few other mons. Mainly, Koko is not usually offensive, at least by my use. I use the U-Turn Taunt Dual Screens set of 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 Spe Jolly Nature, which goes well into those setup mons and stops the opponents from getting up rocks first turn as well. Plus, Koko's great speed tier lets it get away from threats that would usually mean no setup for other screen mons. Aside from the four I mentioned, Magearna sets work really well in the team, and Cinderace performs an important job as well, just as a sample team.

Hope this helps, and have fun :)

 

[robynxyamada]

In HO teams, it's as the name states, very offensive. It carries a lot of powerful mons in combinations with a lot of momentum and sweepings potential to win matches. Typically, I start with a core of Koko, Rillaboom, Suicide Lando, and Hawlucha, and pair it up with a few other mons. Mainly, Koko is not usually offensive, at least by my use. I use the U-Turn Taunt Dual Screens set of 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 Spe Jolly Nature, which goes well into those setup mons and stops the opponents from getting up rocks first turn as well. Plus, Koko's great speed tier lets it get away from threats that would usually mean no setup for other screen mons. Aside from the four I mentioned, Magearna sets work really well in the team, and Cinderace performs an important job as well, just as a sample team.

Hope this helps, and have fun :)

Hey so I moved to a more balanced offensive direction and I think its decent.

https://pokepast.es/87170d1c2f48ea36

Still keeping the same offensive core of Specs Magearna and Pivot Cinderace with Suicide Lead Lando-T. Replaced the other 3 with new members that I think have been working pretty well.

Kartana @ Life Orb
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Leaf Blade
- Sacred Sword
- Swords Dance
- Knock Off

I found Kartana to be a really cool addition to the team and its my main answer for the bulky waters that are part of the tier (Swampert for the most part). This is the standard set that I got off of Smogon and I think that ive been having some good fun with this Mon and I think that it is a cool addition to the team.

Hydreigon @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 164 HP / 92 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Earth Power
- Dark Pulse
- Defog
- Roost

Because I needed a Spectrier check on my team since it lacked that last time, I brought on Hydreigon to be a Defogger and to be a pseudo offensive mon in a pinch. I was going to use Mandibuzz but i didnt think it had the offensive power that I was looking for. Again this is from Smogon and I thought it was kind of weird but this has been working as a solid defog mon.

Slowbro @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Scald
- Slack Off
- Teleport
- Future Sight

Some bulk I though would help the team and moved it away from a Hyper Offense direction to a more Balanced VoltTurn Offense. Future sight is actually insane and its been a great source of pressure and support. Regenerator really keeps it healthy and for the most part has been a way to fall back if Offensive pressure has been lost. Although Im not sure if Ice Beam is better than Scald but Scald burns have come in clutch in some situations.

Some of the replays I did with the new team:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1275521701

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1275734862

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1275772342

 

[musiquepkmn]

Hey so I moved to a more balanced offensive direction and I think its decent.

https://pokepast.es/87170d1c2f48ea36

Still keeping the same offensive core of Specs Magearna and Pivot Cinderace with Suicide Lead Lando-T. Replaced the other 3 with new members that I think have been working pretty well.

View attachment 313201
Kartana @ Life Orb
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Leaf Blade
- Sacred Sword
- Swords Dance
- Knock Off

I found Kartana to be a really cool addition to the team and its my main answer for the bulky waters that are part of the tier (Swampert for the most part). This is the standard set that I got off of Smogon and I think that ive been having some good fun with this Mon and I think that it is a cool addition to the team.

View attachment 313202
Hydreigon @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 164 HP / 92 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Earth Power
- Dark Pulse
- Defog
- Roost

Because I needed a Spectrier check on my team since it lacked that last time, I brought on Hydreigon to be a Defogger and to be a pseudo offensive mon in a pinch. I was going to use Mandibuzz but i didnt think it had the offensive power that I was looking for. Again this is from Smogon and I thought it was kind of weird but this has been working as a solid defog mon.

View attachment 313204
Slowbro @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Scald
- Slack Off
- Teleport
- Future Sight

Some bulk I though would help the team and moved it away from a Hyper Offense direction to a more Balanced VoltTurn Offense. Future sight is actually insane and its been a great source of pressure and support. Regenerator really keeps it healthy and for the most part has been a way to fall back if Offensive pressure has been lost. Although Im not sure if Ice Beam is better than Scald but Scald burns have come in clutch in some situations.

Some of the replays I did with the new team:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1275521701

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1275734862

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1275772342

I think you'll do better by changing lead Lando-T to maybe Scarf, or Bulky, or some other non-lead set. Any team with Defog will be able to easily capitalize on the passivity of your new members and remove your rocks, thus making it so you're playing a 5v6. Suicide leads really only belong on Hyper Offense.

 

[adamantazu]

View attachment 313202
Hydreigon @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 164 HP / 92 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Earth Power
- Dark Pulse
- Defog
- Roost

Because I needed a Spectrier check on my team since it lacked that last time, I brought on Hydreigon to be a Defogger and to be a pseudo offensive mon in a pinch. I was going to use Mandibuzz but i didnt think it had the offensive power that I was looking for. Again this is from Smogon and I thought it was kind of weird but this has been working as a solid defog mon.

Now that Spectrier is gone, I suggest swapping out Hydreigon. You chose it as a defogger that had some offensive presence. I think Moltres could work here. U-turn is also more well-suited on Moltres, allowing you to extend the voltturn playstyle. It also forms a good defensive core with Mage (completely dismantles Cinderace if you get the predictions right) and Flame Body would help you get more setup opportunities with Kart.

 

[robynxyamada]

I think you'll do better by changing lead Lando-T to maybe Scarf, or Bulky, or some other non-lead set. Any team with Defog will be able to easily capitalize on the passivity of your new members and remove your rocks, thus making it so you're playing a 5v6. Suicide leads really only belong on Hyper Offense.

That does make sense, I do like the idea of a dedicated lead pokemon but 5v6 isnt prime majority of the time.

Now that Spectrier is gone, I suggest swapping out Hydreigon. You chose it as a defogger that had some offensive presence. I think Moltres could work here. U-turn is also more well-suited on Moltres, allowing you to extend the voltturn playstyle. It also forms a good defensive core with Mage (completely dismantles Cinderace if you get the predictions right) and Flame Body would help you get more setup opportunities with Kart.

I was thinking about switching it out for Zapdos or Tornadus-T, but Ill try out Moltres.