Metagame National Dex AG Metagame Discussion

[Rarycaris]

What nature is generally preferred on Zacian-C? I can see that only Jolly is listed in the speed tiers thread, but given that Adamant speed-creeps base 130+ by one point, does it miss any important speed benchmarks? Or is the speed tie against itself just too important to miss?

 

[bigtalk]

What nature is generally preferred on Zacian-C? I can see that only Jolly is listed in the speed tiers thread, but given that Adamant speed-creeps base 130+ by one point, does it miss any important speed benchmarks? Or is the speed tie against itself just too important to miss?

Jolly helps for +1 Dusk Mane and Mega Mewtwo Y, but speed tying with itself is the main reason. Adamant isn't uncommon.

 

[theotherguytm]

What nature is generally preferred on Zacian-C? I can see that only Jolly is listed in the speed tiers thread, but given that Adamant speed-creeps base 130+ by one point, does it miss any important speed benchmarks? Or is the speed tie against itself just too important to miss?

IMO, Adamant is generally the way forward unless you really care about that speed tie. The damage increase is too much to miss out on. I can't recall anything off the top of my head where it specifically helps, but it does increase damage on its checks when they switch-in.
Aside:For Scarf base Zacian however, run Jolly so you beat +1 Ultra Nec.

 

[YaBoiJD]

Groudon-Primal @ Red Orb
Ability: Desolate Land
EVs: 100 Def / 252 SpA / 156 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Eruption/Fire Blast
- Dragon Pulse
- Rock Polish
- Solar Beam

I seem to find this pdon set a really viable set to use, get's mray, potentially pogre, plus other mons, Eruption can be replace with fireblast if you want to lessen the risk of not killing because you don't have full health, otherwise this can be a great powerhouse against all other mons especially since many mons now invest in defense. goes great with a ferrothorn for additional pogre coverage, and goes great with pogre itself for coverage on ditto. so this does require a core of three to work great, but it does. especially my team which also has so many counters for potential ditto encounters, and just dominates most teams (including AGL's annoying webs team if played right).

100 defense is for other pdons, plus better damage resistance against zacian in case if zacian somehow decides to stay in.
252 attack because it's a special attacker
156 speed because we want speed investment as well
modest nature for harder hitting
Eruption/Fire Blast for STAB (main attack to use)
Dragon Pulse to hit mray and other dragon types
Rock Polish to outspeed most mons
Solar Beam to hit pogres and groundceus

if you are wondering how is solar beam going to hit pogres if there is no sun?
Answer it's simple, if they come out the turn you click solar beam, the next turn you can hit pogre.
Otherwise, this is why we have our ferrothorn right? plus our own pogre too?

(sets for the other two mons should be obvious)

 

[Sereg]

Depends if Dragon Ascent was/stays Dexited. If so, np, if not there are two consistent options IMO:
1.Have both Dynamax AND Mega Evolution available for use in battle, but lock out one if the other is used (Obviously don't allow both to be used in the same battle).
Issue: Allows far too much flexibility to Ray, not actually something that would be possible with our current mechanics.
2. Force players to commit to one or the other in the teambuilder, teams already get the option to select either Ray or Mega Ray, and rn they are basically the same thing.
Issue: This would be hard to inform players about in the teambuilder.
The last resort is just to ban Ray Dmaxing. But that is a last-resort only I think.

Maybe ... Ray with Dragon Ascent only gains the ability to dynamax after a teammate has already mega'd, taking away it's own ability to?

 

[GRNBLN]

Solar Beam to hit pogres and groundceus

252+ SpA Groudon-Primal Solar Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Kyogre-Primal: 214-252 (62.7 - 73.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0- Atk Groudon-Primal Precipice Blades vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Kyogre-Primal: 211-250 (61.8 - 73.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 Atk Groudon-Primal Precipice Blades vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Kyogre-Primal: 235-277 (68.9 - 81.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ SpA Groudon-Primal Solar Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Arceus-Ground: 272-322 (61.2 - 72.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Groudon-Primal Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Arceus-Ground in Harsh Sunshine: 282-333 (63.5 - 75%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Imo running Solar Beam on PDon is not worth it at all and only gives you the risk of being exploited. As shown in the calcs above apart from the risk of missing PDon already has good options of hitting Kyogre and Arceus Ground. Solar Beam is in the best case scenario only slightly advantageous cause its 100% Accurate but imagine coming in on Kyogre going for Solar Beam as they switch into Ray giving them a almost free turn to do whatever. I think if you wanna use unconvential anti meta attack on Pdon try running mixed with Stone Edge as Ho-Oh is really common mon that would stop special PDon in its Tracks.
0- Atk Groudon-Primal Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 204+ Def Ho-Oh: 352-416 (84.6 - 100%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
0 Atk Groudon-Primal Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 204+ Def Ho-Oh: 388-460 (93.2 - 110.5%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO

Edit: Also if Kyogre comes in on you especially after you already set up you basically always have to switch out as you cant hit for any significant damage before it ohkos you. 252+ SpA Groudon-Primal Dragon Pulse vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Kyogre-Primal: 75-89 (21.9 - 26%) -- 6.4% chance to 4HKO

 

[YaBoiJD]

252+ SpA Groudon-Primal Solar Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Kyogre-Primal: 214-252 (62.7 - 73.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0- Atk Groudon-Primal Precipice Blades vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Kyogre-Primal: 211-250 (61.8 - 73.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 Atk Groudon-Primal Precipice Blades vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Kyogre-Primal: 235-277 (68.9 - 81.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ SpA Groudon-Primal Solar Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Arceus-Ground: 272-322 (61.2 - 72.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Groudon-Primal Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Arceus-Ground in Harsh Sunshine: 282-333 (63.5 - 75%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Imo running Solar Beam on PDon is not worth it at all and only gives you the risk of being exploited. As shown in the calcs above apart from the risk of missing PDon already has good options of hitting Kyogre and Arceus Ground. Solar Beam is in the best case scenario only slightly advantageous cause its 100% Accurate but imagine coming in on Kyogre going for Solar Beam as they switch into Ray giving them a almost free turn to do whatever. I think if you wanna use unconvential anti meta attack on Pdon try running mixed with Stone Edge as Ho-Oh is really common mon that would stop special PDon in its Tracks.
0- Atk Groudon-Primal Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 204+ Def Ho-Oh: 352-416 (84.6 - 100%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
0 Atk Groudon-Primal Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 204+ Def Ho-Oh: 388-460 (93.2 - 110.5%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO

Edit: Also if Kyogre comes in on you especially after you already set up you basically always have to switch out as you cant hit for any significant damage before it ohkos you. 252+ SpA Groudon-Primal Dragon Pulse vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Kyogre-Primal: 75-89 (21.9 - 26%) -- 6.4% chance to 4HKO

you can always switch out as well, as i did say it's always a possibility to switcho out, as i also did state it being a core, i didnt post the other two mons such as their ev's/moves it's its usually a standard for gen 8.

Thanks though


Groudon-Primal @ Red Orb
Ability: Desolate Land
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Fire Blast/Eruption
- Rock Polish
- Dragon Pulse
- Solar Beam

Ferrothorn @ Leftovers
Ability: Iron Barbs
EVs: 252 HP / 156 Def / 100 SpD
Impish Nature
- Stealth Rock/Spikes
- Knock Off
- Leech Seed
- Protect

Kyogre-Primal @ Blue Orb
Ability: Primordial Sea
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Water Spout
- Origin Pulse
- Thunder
- Ice Beam

(full core pretty much, will release the whole team soon enough)

 

[Khazar]

if you are wondering how is solar beam going to hit pogres if there is no sun?
Answer it's simple, if they come out the turn you click solar beam, the next turn you can hit pogre.

Turn 1: Kyogre switches in, Groudon charges Solar Beam because of rain
Turn 2: Groudon cannot switch out and inflicts less than half the damage it would have if it used Precipice Blades. Since it can't switch out, it autoloses to whatever water move Kyogre uses. This is all assuming that Kyogre is slower than Groudon.

Have you actually pulled of this strategy effectively (using Solar Beam effectively) or am I missing something very obvious? I know P-orge doesn't usually switch in on P-don but every situation I can think of (in addition to P-Ogre switching in) would have Solar Beam as an inferior option to Precipice Blades or Fire Blast or both.

Edit: Would be interested to seeing some replays

 

[YaBoiJD]

Turn 1: Kyogre switches in, Groudon charges Solar Beam because of rain
Turn 2: Groudon cannot switch out and inflicts less than half the damage it would have if it used Precipice Blades. Since it can't switch out, it autoloses to whatever water move Kyogre uses. This is all assuming that Kyogre is slower than Groudon.

Have you actually pulled of this strategy effectively or am I missing something very obvious? I know P-orge doesn't usually switch in on P-don but every situation I can think of (in addition to P-Ogre switching in) would have Solar Beam as an inferior option to Precipice Blades or Fire Blast or both.

yes i have pulled this off @ times, but i have tweaked it a bunch (removing solar beam for thunder, etc), this is still something in development, so be sure to wait for the team drop soon!

 

[theotherguytm]

Ok kids, quiz time!
What OHKOs the entire of Ubers after a Nasty Plot and rocks?
Lucario-Mega @ Lucarionite
Ability: Adaptability
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Nasty Plot
- Steel Beam
- Focus Blast/Aura Sphere
- Vacuum Wave/Aura Sphere/Flash Cannon
"Coverage? What's that?"-Mega Lucario 2014-2019 rip OR SO WE THOUGHT!
Because Lucario survived Dexit. And is the 2nd highest SpA mon that gets Steel Beam and is the only viable user of Steel Beam+Nasty Plot. And that's all before it Mega Evolves.

A complete list of switch-ins in the game for this mon:

Shedinja (though beware smal/cosmic brains running Dark Pulse)

List of mons that get 2HKOed with Rocks assuming ideal set*

Slowking, Mantine, Aegislash-Shield, Magearna

List of mons that can sometimes be OHKOed with Rocks assuming ideal set*

Tentacruel, Jellicent, Toxapex, Muk-Alola, Slowbro (+Mega)

List of mons that get 2HKOed with Boots, OHKOed with Rocks, assuming ideal set*

Ho-Oh, Araquanid, Victini, Volcarona

List of mons that can sometimes be OHKOed with Boots, OHKOed with Rocks, assuming ideal set*

Vaporeon, Kyogre-Primal, Blissey, Delphox, Zapdos, Milotic, Necrozma-Dusk-Mane, Moltres, Gyarados, Quagsire, Chansey, Amoonguss, Charizard-Mega-Y (cannot hold boots and survive)

*Ideal set as defined by set in the calc that takes the least damage ie: the best-case actually viable commonplace set.
Just wow. Some highlights:
+2 252 SpA Adaptability Lucario-Mega Focus Blast vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 564-668 (87.8 - 104%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 SpA Adaptability Lucario-Mega Steel Beam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Zygarde-Complete: 668-788 (105 - 123.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 SpA Adaptability Lucario-Mega Focus Blast vs. 248 HP / 24 SpD Kyogre-Primal: 362-426 (89.8 - 105.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 SpA Adaptability Lucario-Mega Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Unaware Pyukumuku: 166-196 (52.8 - 62.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+2 252 SpA Adaptability Lucario-Mega Steel Beam vs. 252 HP / 52 SpD Ho-Oh: 213-251 (51.2 - 60.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Yeah, you get it, it kills things. It can either sac itself to a glorious 2nd Steel Beam KO that clears the way for an ally to sweep, or receive a Wish/Healing Wish that loads another nuke. Either way, your opponent's defensive core is likely to be a mess on the wall by the time this is done. And if using Nasty Plot is just too much effort or you have to fit 4 attacking moves on one set, well, there's always Baton Pass Shell Smash. To Imposter-proof (ie: not auto-lose to Ditto), run Vacuum Wave and a Ghost (sadly not Mega Gengar).

 

[AV Cosmoem]

Ok kids, quiz time!
What OHKOs the entire of Ubers after a Nasty Plot and rocks?
Lucario-Mega @ Lucarionite
Ability: Adaptability
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Nasty Plot
- Steel Beam
- Focus Blast/Aura Sphere
- Vacuum Wave/Aura Sphere/Flash Cannon
"Coverage? What's that?"-Mega Lucario 2014-2019 rip OR SO WE THOUGHT!
Because Lucario survived Dexit. And is the 2nd highest SpA mon that gets Steel Beam and is the only viable user of Steel Beam+Nasty Plot. And that's all before it Mega Evolves.

A complete list of switch-ins in the game for this mon:

Shedinja (though beware smal/cosmic brains running Dark Pulse)

List of mons that get 2HKOed with Rocks assuming ideal set*

Slowking, Mantine, Aegislash-Shield, Magearna

List of mons that can sometimes be OHKOed with Rocks assuming ideal set*

Tentacruel, Jellicent, Toxapex, Muk-Alola, Slowbro (+Mega)

List of mons that get 2HKOed with Boots, OHKOed with Rocks, assuming ideal set*

Ho-Oh, Araquanid, Victini, Volcarona

List of mons that can sometimes be OHKOed with Boots, OHKOed with Rocks, assuming ideal set*

Vaporeon, Kyogre-Primal, Blissey, Delphox, Zapdos, Milotic, Necrozma-Dusk-Mane, Moltres, Gyarados, Quagsire, Chansey, Amoonguss, Charizard-Mega-Y (cannot hold boots and survive)

*Ideal set as defined by set in the calc that takes the least damage ie: the best-case actually viable commonplace set.
Just wow. Some highlights:
+2 252 SpA Adaptability Lucario-Mega Focus Blast vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 564-668 (87.8 - 104%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 SpA Adaptability Lucario-Mega Steel Beam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Zygarde-Complete: 668-788 (105 - 123.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 SpA Adaptability Lucario-Mega Focus Blast vs. 248 HP / 24 SpD Kyogre-Primal: 362-426 (89.8 - 105.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 SpA Adaptability Lucario-Mega Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Unaware Pyukumuku: 166-196 (52.8 - 62.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+2 252 SpA Adaptability Lucario-Mega Steel Beam vs. 252 HP / 52 SpD Ho-Oh: 213-251 (51.2 - 60.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Yeah, you get it, it kills things. It can either sac itself to a glorious 2nd Steel Beam KO that clears the way for an ally to sweep, or receive a Wish/Healing Wish that loads another nuke. Either way, your opponent's defensive core is likely to be a mess on the wall by the time this is done. And if using Nasty Plot is just too much effort or you have to fit 4 attacking moves on one set, well, there's always Baton Pass Shell Smash. To Imposter-proof (ie: not auto-lose to Ditto), run Vacuum Wave and a Ghost (sadly not Mega Gengar).

Mega Lucario is pretty much a worse Mega Rayquaza. It can't boost it's speed making it way easier to revenge since a lot of faster threats can survive a boosted Bullet Punch and OHKO back, because Mega Lucario has crap bulk. It needs a sack to switch in, which sucks, because you spend so much effort coming in just for Ho-oh to come in and force you out. The meta rn is balance and HO, when Mega Lucario wants to fight stall. You need to find a setup opportunity which good luck with those 70/88/70 defensive stats and that bad defensive typing lol. You're going to need to force a switch, and since it's very obvious you'll set up, this creates a 50/50 of "should I attack or set up" every time you come in (which is also difficult to do). Also this only fits on webs where the much stronger win-con Swords Dance Mega Rayquaza can be used.

 

[theotherguytm]

Bad counterargument (feel free to ignore)

Mega Lucario is pretty much a worse Mega Rayquaza.

Question:What isn't on paper? Pretty sure no-one even looks at Megas not called Ray and Gengar. But it turns out being weak to Fairy is pretty bad rn. Plus every other defensive mon carries Ice Beam to not be setup bait for Mega Ray. And if Mega Mewtwo Y and Mega Blastiose make the VR, pretty sure there's a niche there for other Megas. Admittedly a narrow one, but it's there.

It can't boost it's speed making it way easier to revenge since a lot of faster threats can survive a boosted Bullet Punch and OHKO back, because Mega Lucario has crap bulk.

I think you meant Vacuum Wave. But it can always switch out unless it's Mega Gengar, who can't OHKO or switch in after a Steel Beam.
+1 252+ Atk Zacian-Crowned Wild Charge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Lucario-Mega: 220-259 (78.2 - 92.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock (so if not carrying Fighting coverage or Play Rough (see above on the latter's lack of useage) you need to send in Steel Beam fodder to soften it up)
Also, Baton Pass Shell Smash. Good luck. Yes, it's also gg if you pass that to Mega Ray, agreed. If it wasn't for the fact that every team preps for Mega Ray (though not for +2/+2/+2 Mega Ray).

It needs a sack to switch in, which sucks, because you spend so much effort coming in just for Ho-oh to come in and force you out.

There's this move called Toxic which is being used a lot. Special Lu also doesn't care about getting burned. It comes in for free on SpeDef Necrozma DM lacking EQ (its most common set due to the need to check Xern) and uses it as setup fodder. Lugia can only click Whirlwind and pray. Lots of Zygod run Rest without Sleep Talk atm, so that gives Mega Lu a free turn. Not to mention Ekiller Arceus, which it beats setting up in parallel. And OFC, you would run Knock on your Nec-DM so Ho-oh loses its boots, and then promptly stops being a Mega Lu check (see above).

The meta rn is balance and HO, when Mega Lucario wants to fight stall.

I'd say it likes breaking balance backbones.

You need to find a setup opportunity which good luck with those 70/88/70 defensive stats and that bad defensive typing lol.

See above. Also, this applies to every other fragile setup mon in the game, of which there is more than a few that have been successful.

You're going to need to force a switch, and since it's very obvious you'll set up, this creates a 50/50 of "should I attack or set up" every time you come in (which is also difficult to do).

Again, applies to every other fragile setup mon in the game.

Also this only fits on webs where the much stronger win-con Swords Dance Mega Rayquaza can be used.

Quick reminder that Mega Lu has base 112 speed, putting it above Adamant Mega Ray, full speed Yveltal, Lunala and Xern, not fully invested/not +Spe Arceus forms and even Adamant Duggy. Also, let's see SD Mega Ray OHKO Zygod from full.

Yeah, it's not the most practical. I just found how much damage it did hilarious. And this is the only format it's legal in. *shrug*

 

[AV Cosmoem]

Question:What isn't on paper? Pretty sure no-one even looks at Megas not called Ray and Gengar. But it turns out being weak to Fairy is pretty bad rn. Plus every other defensive mon carries Ice Beam to not be setup bait for Mega Ray. And if Mega Mewtwo Y and Mega Blastiose make the VR, pretty sure there's a niche there for other Megas. Admittedly a narrow one, but it's there.

Not only does MRay carry Scarf a lot, making the Ice Beam argument null since you can just come out and KO Ice Beamers like MMY after at most a bit of chip easily except like Supportceus, the amount of Pokemon that actually do this is low. Also this isn't about opportunity cost: Mega Rayquaza just straight up outclasses Mega Lucario.

I think you meant Vacuum Wave. But it can always switch out unless it's Mega Gengar, who can't OHKO or switch in after a Steel Beam.
+1 252+ Atk Zacian-Crowned Wild Charge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Lucario-Mega: 220-259 (78.2 - 92.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock (so if not carrying Fighting coverage or Play Rough (see above on the latter's lack of useage) you need to send in Steel Beam fodder to soften it up)
Also, Baton Pass Shell Smash. Good luck. Yes, it's also gg if you pass that to Mega Ray, agreed. If it wasn't for the fact that every team preps for Mega Ray (though not for +2/+2/+2 Mega Ray).

No, I meant Bullet Punch because that's a much better priority STAB. Also anything can switch out against it's checks that isn't an argument. After all the work you spent bringing it in, now you're switching out? Also MGar sure as hell can Encore you into a fighting move. What now? Physical can escape this trap due to Bullet Punch however. Steel Beam literally gives you two shots to attack. Why not just use Flash Cannon instead? You're already at +2 and with Adaptability. Also you could SmashPass to literally anything with an attacking move except like Ferro and have it sweep. Also Zacian commonly runs CC.

There's this move called Toxic which is being used a lot. Special Lu also doesn't care about getting burned. It comes in for free on SpeDef Necrozma DM lacking EQ (its most common set due to the need to check Xern) and uses it as setup fodder. Lugia can only click Whirlwind and pray. Lots of Zygod run Rest without Sleep Talk atm, so that gives Mega Lu a free turn. Not to mention Ekiller Arceus, which it beats setting up in parallel. And OFC, you would run Knock on your Nec-DM so Ho-oh loses its boots, and then promptly stops being a Mega Lu check (see above).

Ho-oh's the one switching in, not you. You're targeting its stronger Special Defense and Ho-oh is a mon where you need to hit it SE to kill. Sacred Fire's burn isn't the problem, it's the clean OHKO that is. Every example you mentioned was on stall except Arc, when you later said it breaks balance(?). Pretty sure Zyg lives and then just kills with TArrows, especially if it alredy set up a DD or a Coil. Hell, a lot of Arceus run EQ which cleanly OHKOs. No one runs Knock Necro-DM btw.

I'd say it likes breaking balance backbones.

Then why can you only set up on Stall?

See above. Also, this applies to every other fragile setup mon in the game, of which there is more than a few that have been successful.

Those mons could also force switches and 50/50s, and could run Focus Sash. Mega Lucario can't.

Again, applies to every other fragile setup mon in the game.

This time you see above.

Quick reminder that Mega Lu has base 112 speed, putting it above Adamant Mega Ray, full speed Yveltal, Lunala and Xern, not fully invested/not +Spe Arceus forms and even Adamant Duggy. Also, let's see SD Mega Ray OHKO Zygod from full.

Quick reminder that MRay has base 115 speed, putting it above Adamant Mega Ray, full speed Yveltal, Lunala and Xern, not +Spe Arceus forms and even Adamant Duggy. And Mega Lucario.
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Rayquaza-Mega Dragon Ascent vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Zygarde: 450-530 (107.1 - 126.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

 

[theotherguytm]

Ho-oh's the one switching in, not you. You're targeting its stronger Special Defense and Ho-oh is a mon where you need to hit it SE to kill. Sacred Fire's burn isn't the problem, it's the clean OHKO that is. Every example you mentioned was on stall except Arc, when you later said it breaks balance(?). Pretty sure Zyg lives and then just kills with TArrows, especially if it alredy set up a DD or a Coil. Hell, a lot of Arceus run EQ which cleanly OHKOs. No one runs Knock Necro-DM btw

Agree with what you said. But... I'll repost the above calcs.
+2 252 SpA Adaptability Lucario-Mega Steel Beam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Zygarde-Complete: 668-788 (105 - 123.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 SpA Adaptability Lucario-Mega Steel Beam vs. 252 HP / 52 SpD Ho-Oh: 213-251 (51.2 - 60.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
Ho-Oh switching in on Mega Lu without boots be big rip. Hence Knock Nec-DM, which also lures and Knocks Boots off Lunala, Leftovers off Zy, and many others. Yes, I have seen this set be used several times, including in the recent tour. If you want to lure and remove from the match Ho-oh, or any other Boots reliant mon, Nec-DM does it. Also works great on other Nec-DM, as worst-case scenario you find out they are either SSS, or Ultra. Pretty sure I've seen all of those on balance, in high-level play BTW.
Anyway, as you rightly say, this is all mostly pointless because Mega Ray.

 

[Laminal Nihan]

I don't know about others, but I really hate ditto this gen. THIS THING DOES NOT LET ME SETUP, AND I AM A SUCKER FOR SETTING UP

 

[Bread Sandwich]

I don't know about others, but I really hate ditto this gen. THIS THING DOES NOT LET ME SETUP, AND I AM A SUCKER FOR SETTING UP

Same dude
I just want to use my dynamax gimmicks in peace and then ditto has to ruin my fun

 

[Chloe]

How do I check Dynamaxed Xerneas?
Are you having trouble with Xerneas on the ladder? Do your teams just get bombarded by constant Max Starfalls, Max Lightnings and Max Flares? Well, you're in luck! Here is a comprehensive guide as to how you can defeat it. Unfortunately, Xerneas is, in layman's terms, busted. This makes counterplay incredibly difficult.

Xerneas receives a fantastic upgrade in National Dex, with the ability to Dynamax post-Geomancy and wreak havoc to unprepared teams. By running a set of Geomancy, Moonblast, Thunder and Hidden Power Fire; Dynamaxed Xerneas is able to overcome previous issues and bop the entire metagame. There are of course exceptions to this, which will be listed below.

Part I: Necrozma-Dusk-Mane

While there are not many viable options to check Xerneas, Necrozma-Dusk-Mane stands out as one that is capable of being fit onto virtually any team. Xerneas very often has perfect coverage in order to OHKO the entire metagame whilst in a Dynamaxed state; Necrozma-Dusk-Mane is an exception to this. Unfortunately, with Xerneas's doubled HP, there is room for error.

Necrozma-Dusk-Mane doesn't take Max Flares and Max Lightnings that well in its base forme, meaning it gets at least 2HKOd by either of those, regardless of what set it decides to run. This is alleviated by using your own Dynamax on Necrozma-Dusk-Mane. Both offensive and defensive variants are able to beat Dynamax Xerneas post-Geomancy by Dynamaxing themselves. For example:

+2 252+ SpA Xerneas Max Flare vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Prism Armor Dynamax Necrozma-Dusk-Mane: 369-435 (46.4 - 54.6%)

By clicking Max Guard on your first dynamax turn, followed by Max Steelspike, followed by Max Guard you are successfully able to outstall a Xerneas's dynamax. When facing a competent player, be weary that Xerneas may opt not to Dynamax right after Geomancy in order to waste a turn of Necrozma-Dusk-Mane's Dynamax. This means that even with Dynamax, Necrozma-Dusk-Mane is not a guaranteed check to Xerneas.

Necrozma-Dusk-Mane can run 252 HP / 252 SpD with a SpD boosting nature in order to handle this scenario better, or even run an Occa Berry; however, it should be stated that these options are very very situational and will not be necessary often at all. If the Xerneas player incorrectly predicts the Max Guard, it can take substantial damage from Max Steelspike and fall regardless.

Scenario listing

1) Most likely scenario.
Turn 1 | Xerneas switches in after a teammate has fainted or switches in on a passive Pokemon.
Turn 2 | Xerneas uses Geomancy, Necrozma-Dusk-Mane switches in.
Turn 3 | Xerneas Dynamaxes and uses Max Flare, Necrozma Dynamaxes and uses Max Guard.
Turn 4 | Xerneas uses Max Flare, sets up Sunny Day, Necrozma uses Max Steelspike.
Turn 5 | Xerneas uses Max Flare, Necrozma uses Max Guard. Dynamax ends for both users.
Turn 6 | Xerneas uses Sun-boosted Hidden Power Fire, Necrozma uses Sunsteel Strike and knocks out Xerneas.
Result | Necrozma has knocked out and removed Dynamax Xerneas from play.

2) Suboptimal scenario.
Turn 1 | Xerneas switches in after a teammate has fainted or switches in on a passive Pokemon.
Turn 2 | Xerneas uses Geomancy, Necrozma-Dusk-Mane switches in.
Turn 3 | Xerneas predicts Max Guard and uses Hidden Power Fire, Necrozma Dynamaxes and uses Max Guard.
Turn 4 | Xerneas Dynamaxes and uses Max Flare, sets up Sunny Day, Necrozma uses Max Steelspike.
Turn 5 | Xerneas uses Max Flare, Necrozma uses Max Guard. Dynamax ends for Necrozma.
Turn 6 | Xerneas uses Sun-boosted Max Flare and knocks out Necrozma. Dynamax ends for Xerneas.
Result | Geomancy Xerneas left at ~40% with boosts remaining and Sunny Day set up for two more turns.

It should be noted that against Xerneas, your best play is usually to follow the first scenario, if no alternate counterplay is provided.

Part II: Other Defensive Counterplay
There are alternatives to using Necrozma-Dusk-Mane; however, against non-Xerneas teams they can be considered dead weight. Necrozma-Dusk-Mane is a very viable Pokemon, and hence using these other Pokemon is often a subpar decision. That being said, they do check Xerneas more reliably than Necrozma-Dusk-Mane does, albeit many players would consider them not worth it.


Arceus-Poison can Dynamax itself and take on Xerneas; however, is very inferior to Necrozma-Dusk-Mane, and is virtually useless against any other Pokemon. Max Ooze is also fairly weaker than other Max Moves due to Fighting- and Poison-type moves getting lower boosts. It can also run Psych Up to boost to the same level as Xerneas, stall out Dynamax with Recover, and then do good damage to an opposing team but this is very rarely worth it. Arceus-Poison will be dead-weight against most teams lacking Xerneas.


Assault Vest Amoonguss is a very very solid check for Xerneas, and a soft check for other select Pokemon such as Primal Kyogre and support Arceus, but that is about it. It stops all of Dynamaxed Xerneas's attacks, taking at the very most 95% from the subpar Max Mindstorm (Psychic or Psyshock). It can Clear Smog away Xerneas's boosts and then pivot to a supporting partner such as Ho-Oh to regain health and be usable later. There are issues with this however. If a Xerneas has Psyshock and opts not to Dynamax, it can OHKO cleanly. Thankfully, Psyshock is considered a bad choice for coverage in a metagame where Necrozma-Dusk-Mane and Ho-Oh are on virtually every team.


Chansey is an interesting choice for a Xerneas check, as it does cleanly live two +2 Xerneas Max Starfalls as long as it meets one of two conditions. The first is Chansey having Confide and using it on the turn post-Geomancy. Then using Soft-Boiled in order to stall out Misty Terrain turns. The second is being heavily invested in both HP and Special Defense, in order to tank Max Starfalls without hassle. The former is preferred generally as without adequate Defense investment, Chansey can fall to even the weakest of common physical attackers. Unfortunately, Chansey is difficult to fit onto teams that aren't considered Stall due to how passive it is, and how easily it can be removed or abused.


Nihilego is one of the only semi-semi-semi viable picks remaining. It's able to survive all of +2 Dynamaxed Xerneas's attacks, bar the very rare Max Mindstorm, without an item, without Dynamax and without any defensive investment. Clear Smog + Stealth Rock/Toxic Spikes is solid utility, as Nihilego is able to abuse Xerneas's weakened state to set up useful hazards to aid later in the game. Nihilego also acts as a very solid Ho-Oh check; however, is borderline useless against everything else.

Part III: Berry User Gimmicks
Now we've moved onto the essentially useless picks. You'd have to be very desperate in order to fall to the lows of using these Pokemon, as they very rarely serve in a function other than beating Xerneas, and even then, as we've explored, there are much better options. If someone recognises the gimmick prior to the Pokemon being used, they can fall flat and not provide any utility throughout the match whatsoever.


Magearna is useless. It can take on Xerneas if it runs a very specific set with a very specific item, Occa Berry. By using Heart Swap and Pain Split, Magearna is able to take Xerneas's boosts and bring itself back to full health. It will very rarely have a chance to counter sweep due to Primal Groudon, Ho-Oh, Necrozma-Dusk-Mane and others being omnipresent throughout the metagame. Does this sound worth it to you?


Toxapex can run Wacan Berry to stop Max Lightning and then Haze. Thankfully, Toxapex does have other uses and hence can do other things such as pivot into attacks later or set Toxic Spikes. This still doesn't justify using it though. If you really need a Xerneas, Eternatus, Ho-Oh and Marshadow check then you could potentially justify this, otherwise I'd find something else.

Part IV: Imposter & Offensive Counterplay

Ditto can technically revenge Xerneas once weakened; however, it has trouble doing this while Xerneas is dynamaxed. If whatever Xerneas sets up on is able to sufficiently dent it, then Ditto can Dynamax as it comes in and Max Starfall to KO it. Otherwise, you may have to fodder a few Pokemon prior to switching Ditto in.

Offensive options such as Choice Scarf Zacian can dent Xerneas slightly, but won't be removing it. Priority can be used to overcome Xerneas's massive Speed. Most priority isn't going to be doing much damage while Xerneas is Dynamaxed however, and hence defensive counterplay is recommended.

Conclusion
To sum up, Dynamaxed Xerneas is without a doubt one of the most threatening Pokemon to ever touch the Anything Goes metagame. With very limited counterplay, it's able to overwhelm many teams unless they have a sufficient check. Necrozma-Dusk-Mane is easily the best answer for Xerneas in the metagame, remaining a top-tier threat even without that capability. As you can see, alternatives do exist; however, they are rarely worth it over just running Dusk Mane.

I wrote this post because I received over ten messages in the space of week by new players asking how they can effectively answer Xerneas. Now I can just be lazy and link them this.

 

[theotherguytm]

How do I check Dynamaxed Xerneas?
Are you having trouble with Xerneas on the ladder? Do your teams just get bombarded by constant Max Starfalls, Max Lightnings and Max Flares? Well, you're in luck! Here is a comprehensive guide as to how you can defeat it. Unfortunately, Xerneas is, in layman's terms, busted. This makes counterplay incredibly difficult.

Xerneas receives a fantastic upgrade in National Dex, with the ability to Dynamax post-Geomancy and wreak havoc to unprepared teams. By running a set of Geomancy, Moonblast, Thunder and Hidden Power Fire; Dynamaxed Xerneas is able to overcome previous issues and bop the entire metagame. There are of course exceptions to this, which will be listed below.

Part I: Necrozma-Dusk-Mane

While there are not many viable options to check Xerneas, Necrozma-Dusk-Mane stands out as one that is capable of being fit onto virtually any team. Xerneas very often has perfect coverage in order to OHKO the entire metagame whilst in a Dynamaxed state; Necrozma-Dusk-Mane is an exception to this. Unfortunately, with Xerneas's doubled HP, there is room for error.

Necrozma-Dusk-Mane doesn't take Max Flares and Max Lightnings that well in its base forme, meaning it gets at least 2HKOd by either of those, regardless of what set it decides to run. This is alleviated by using your own Dynamax on Necrozma-Dusk-Mane. Both offensive and defensive variants are able to beat Dynamax Xerneas post-Geomancy by Dynamaxing themselves. For example:

+2 252+ SpA Xerneas Max Flare vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Prism Armor Dynamax Necrozma-Dusk-Mane: 369-435 (46.4 - 54.6%)

By clicking Max Guard on your first dynamax turn, followed by Max Steelspike, followed by Max Guard you are successfully able to outstall a Xerneas's dynamax. When facing a competent player, be weary that Xerneas may opt not to Dynamax right after Geomancy in order to waste a turn of Necrozma-Dusk-Mane's Dynamax. This means that even with Dynamax, Necrozma-Dusk-Mane is not a guaranteed check to Xerneas.

Necrozma-Dusk-Mane can run 252 HP / 252 SpD with a SpD boosting nature in order to handle this scenario better, or even run an Occa Berry; however, it should be stated that these options are very very situational and will not be necessary often at all. If the Xerneas player incorrectly predicts the Max Guard, it can take substantial damage from Max Steelspike and fall regardless.

Scenario listing

1) Most likely scenario.
Turn 1 | Xerneas switches in after a teammate has fainted or switches in on a passive Pokemon.
Turn 2 | Xerneas uses Geomancy, Necrozma-Dusk-Mane switches in.
Turn 3 | Xerneas Dynamaxes and uses Max Flare, Necrozma Dynamaxes and uses Max Guard.
Turn 4 | Xerneas uses Max Flare, sets up Sunny Day, Necrozma uses Max Steelspike.
Turn 5 | Xerneas uses Max Flare, Necrozma uses Max Guard. Dynamax ends for both users.
Turn 6 | Xerneas uses Sun-boosted Hidden Power Fire, Necrozma uses Sunsteel Strike and knocks out Xerneas.
Result | Necrozma has knocked out and removed Dynamax Xerneas from play.

2) Suboptimal scenario.
Turn 1 | Xerneas switches in after a teammate has fainted or switches in on a passive Pokemon.
Turn 2 | Xerneas uses Geomancy, Necrozma-Dusk-Mane switches in.
Turn 3 | Xerneas predicts Max Guard and uses Hidden Power Fire, Necrozma Dynamaxes and uses Max Guard.
Turn 4 | Xerneas Dynamaxes and uses Max Flare, sets up Sunny Day, Necrozma uses Max Steelspike.
Turn 5 | Xerneas uses Max Flare, Necrozma uses Max Guard. Dynamax ends for Necrozma.
Turn 6 | Xerneas uses Sun-boosted Max Flare and knocks out Necrozma. Dynamax ends for Xerneas.
Result | Geomancy Xerneas left at ~40% with boosts remaining and Sunny Day set up for two more turns.

It should be noted that against Xerneas, your best play is usually to follow the first scenario, if no alternate counterplay is provided.

Part II: Other Defensive Counterplay
There are alternatives to using Necrozma-Dusk-Mane; however, against non-Xerneas teams they can be considered dead weight. Necrozma-Dusk-Mane is a very viable Pokemon, and hence using these other Pokemon is often a subpar decision. That being said, they do check Xerneas more reliably than Necrozma-Dusk-Mane does, albeit many players would consider them not worth it.


Arceus-Poison can Dynamax itself and take on Xerneas; however, is very inferior to Necrozma-Dusk-Mane, and is virtually useless against any other Pokemon. Max Ooze is also fairly weaker than other Max Moves due to Fighting- and Poison-type moves getting lower boosts. It can also run Psych Up to boost to the same level as Xerneas, stall out Dynamax with Recover, and then do good damage to an opposing team but this is very rarely worth it. Arceus-Poison will be dead-weight against most teams lacking Xerneas.


Assault Vest Amoonguss is a very very solid check for Xerneas, and a soft check for other select Pokemon such as Primal Kyogre and support Arceus, but that is about it. It stops all of Dynamaxed Xerneas's attacks, taking at the very most 95% from the subpar Max Mindstorm (Psychic or Psyshock). It can Clear Smog away Xerneas's boosts and then pivot to a supporting partner such as Ho-Oh to regain health and be usable later. There are issues with this however. If a Xerneas has Psyshock and opts not to Dynamax, it can OHKO cleanly. Thankfully, Psyshock is considered a bad choice for coverage in a metagame where Necrozma-Dusk-Mane and Ho-Oh are on virtually every team.


Chansey is an interesting choice for a Xerneas check, as it does cleanly live two +2 Xerneas Max Starfalls as long as it meets one of two conditions. The first is Chansey having Confide and using it on the turn post-Geomancy. Then using Soft-Boiled in order to stall out Misty Terrain turns. The second is being heavily invested in both HP and Special Defense, in order to tank Max Starfalls without hassle. The former is preferred generally as without adequate Defense investment, Chansey can fall to even the weakest of common physical attackers. Unfortunately, Chansey is difficult to fit onto teams that aren't considered Stall due to how passive it is, and how easily it can be removed or abused.


Nihilego is one of the only semi-semi-semi viable picks remaining. It's able to survive all of +2 Dynamaxed Xerneas's attacks, bar the very rare Max Mindstorm, without an item, without Dynamax and without any defensive investment. Clear Smog + Stealth Rock/Toxic Spikes is solid utility, as Nihilego is able to abuse Xerneas's weakened state to set up useful hazards to aid later in the game. Nihilego also acts as a very solid Ho-Oh check; however, is borderline useless against everything else.

Part III: Berry User Gimmicks
Now we've moved onto the essentially useless picks. You'd have to be very desperate in order to fall to the lows of using these Pokemon, as they very rarely serve in a function other than beating Xerneas, and even then, as we've explored, there are much better options. If someone recognises the gimmick prior to the Pokemon being used, they can fall flat and not provide any utility throughout the match whatsoever.


Magearna is useless. It can take on Xerneas if it runs a very specific set with a very specific item, Occa Berry. By using Heart Swap and Pain Split, Magearna is able to take Xerneas's boosts and bring itself back to full health. It will very rarely have a chance to counter sweep due to Primal Groudon, Ho-Oh, Necrozma-Dusk-Mane and others being omnipresent throughout the metagame. Does this sound worth it to you?


Toxapex can run Wacan Berry to stop Max Lightning and then Haze. Thankfully, Toxapex does have other uses and hence can do other things such as pivot into attacks later or set Toxic Spikes. This still doesn't justify using it though. If you really need a Xerneas, Eternatus, Ho-Oh and Marshadow check then you could potentially justify this, otherwise I'd find something else.

Part IV: Imposter & Offensive Counterplay

Ditto can technically revenge Xerneas once weakened; however, it has trouble doing this while Xerneas is dynamaxed. If whatever Xerneas sets up on is able to sufficiently dent it, then Ditto can Dynamax as it comes in and Max Starfall to KO it. Otherwise, you may have to fodder a few Pokemon prior to switching Ditto in.

Offensive options such as Choice Scarf Zacian can dent Xerneas slightly, but won't be removing it. Priority can be used to overcome Xerneas's massive Speed. Most priority isn't going to be doing much damage while Xerneas is Dynamaxed however, and hence defensive counterplay is recommended.

Conclusion
To sum up, Dynamaxed Xerneas is without a doubt one of the most threatening Pokemon to ever touch the Anything Goes metagame. With very limited counterplay, it's able to overwhelm many teams unless they have a sufficient check. Necrozma-Dusk-Mane is easily the best answer for Xerneas in the metagame, remaining a top-tier threat even without that capability. As you can see, alternatives do exist; however, they are rarely worth it over just running Dusk Mane.

I wrote this post because I received over ten messages in the space of week by new players asking how they can effectively answer Xerneas. Now I can just be lazy and link them this.

This is great, I just want to add that more offensive versions of Necrozma DM can use Weakness Policy to boost up their firepower after being hit by a Max Flare, letting them do this in Scenario 2:
+2 252+ SpA Xerneas Max Flare (110 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Prism Armor Necrozma-Dusk-Mane: 369-435 (92.7 - 109.2%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Necrozma-Dusk-Mane Max Steelspike (140 BP) vs. 0 HP / 108 Def Xerneas: 1080-1272 (274.8 - 323.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
So you'll still need to Dmax, but it reduces the reliance on prediction a bit. However, 2 Max Lightnings can still kill these variants so it's not a certainty.
+2 252+ SpA Xerneas Max Lightning (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Necrozma-Dusk-Mane: 313-369 (78.6 - 92.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ SpA Xerneas Max Lightning (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Necrozma-Dusk-Mane in Electric Terrain: 408-480 (102.5 - 120.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Necrozma-Dusk-Mane Max Steelspike vs. 0 HP / 108 Def Xerneas: 542-638 (137.9 - 162.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
You need 140 SpD EVs to avoid the 2HKO from Max Lightning after Rocks while Dmaxed (not sure how relevant this is due the fact you should be Max Guarding twice but I suppose if you predict their prediction of Max Guard or something and mess up).
+2 252+ SpA Xerneas Max Lightning (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 140 SpD Necrozma-Dusk-Mane: 276-325 (69.3 - 81.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ SpA Xerneas Max Lightning (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 140 SpD Necrozma-Dusk-Mane in Electric Terrain: 359-423 (90.2 - 106.2%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
+2 116+ Atk Necrozma-Dusk-Mane Max Steelspike (140 BP) vs. 0 HP / 108 Def Xerneas: 986-1164 (250.8 - 296.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Please let me know if I've made any mistakes with the Dmax mechanics, as I don't know them off by heart yet and they still have to be calc'ed manually.
Also, as a last, last resort Zacian-C has a 50/50 to live Max Lightning uninvested as long as there's a blank field. It does drop in one to Max Flare though. After Dmax has ended, Zacian lives anything bar Sun-boosted Hidden Power and Terrian boosted Thunder (which may miss). And ofc Behemoth Blade OHKOs.
+2 252+ SpA Xerneas Max Lightning vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Zacian-Crowned: 300-353 (92.3 - 108.6%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
+2 252+ SpA Xerneas Hidden Power Fire vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Zacian-Crowned: 258-304 (79.3 - 93.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ SpA Xerneas Thunder vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Zacian-Crowned in Electric Terrain: 306-360 (94.1 - 110.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
So not a remotely reliable check, but something to remember if you're out of options.
On another note, is anyone using Z-Crystals other than for Ultra Nec? I tried Solgalium Z on an OTR Nec-DM, and it sucked hard. Not being able to Dmax on one hand saved Dmax for other mons, but I felt when I did get TR off I would have better using Weakness Policy and just Dmaxing through things to win there. I think base Zacian and Eternatus are probably the only mons that have a use for generic Z-Moves just because they can't Dmax anyway, and they have superior item choices like Leftovers, Metronome, and Choices.

 

[HOES MAD]

I really think that yveltal is better than xerneas in the current meta, just due to how quickly it can claim kills compared to xern which can take time to get on the field properly

 

[Chloe]

Hi. Someone datamined Pokemon Home and found a list of TRs and TMs for every single Pokemon, including those not in Sword and Shield. I've been told this will be implemented for NatDex, so there's a cool bunch of additions that we get. It should be noted that most of these are pretty much useless, but they could potentially be used on gimmick sets. I've listed a few notable ones below; however, even these are not amazing honestly.

Overall, a lot of common sense quality of life additions were made. A lot of defensive Pokemon also got access to Body Press, Cosmic Power and/or Stored Power. I'll continue adding things to this as I go through the pastebins, but this is what I've found so far.

Notable
Heat Crash
Flare Blitz, Mystical Fire, Air Slash
Baton Pass, Encore, Stored Power, Rest, Electroweb, Power Swap
Play Rough, Draining Kiss

Somewhat useful
Dragon Dance
Body Press
Nasty Plot
Close Combat, U-turn, Aura Sphere
Cosmic Power, Megahorn
Cosmic Power, Stored Power
Play Rough, Mystical Fire, Baton Pass, Encore, Body Press
Breaking Swipe, Body Slam
Solar Blade
Close Combat, U-turn
Air Slash
Spikes, Toxic Spikes, Dragon Dance, Breaking Swipe, Hex
Cosmic Power, Hydro Pump
Protect, Rest, Body Press, Heat Crash, Darkest Lariat
Body Press
Body Press
Body Press, Heat Crash
Play Rough, Close Combat
Nasty Plot, Weather Ball
Breaking Swipe

Cool Gimmick
Baton Pass, Encore
Close Combat, Darkest Lariat
Heavy Slam, Body Press, Breaking Swipe
Body Press
Weather Ball
Baton Pass, Mystical Fire, Aura Sphere, Air Slash, Breaking Swipe
Baton Pass, Mystical Fire, Aura Sphere, Air Slash, Breaking Swipe
Nasty Plot, Baton Pass, Encore
Cosmic Power
Close Combat
Dragon Dance
Nasty Plot, Stored Power, Body Press
Agility
Bulk Up
Play Rough, Close Combat, High Horsepower, Darkest Lariat
Weather Ball
Nasty Plot, Baton Pass, Encore
Baton Pass, Encore, Mystical Fire
Hurricane, Air Slash, Brave Bird

 

[Zrp200]

It looks like Game Freak put significantly less thought into this round compared to the last, which while not unexpected, also is slightly disappointing. I was looking forward to seeing Dragon Dance Garchomp, Giratina-O, Dialga, and Palkia. Tragic that Giratina didn't get body press, might have been an interesting addition to its movepool. Game Freak give the timespace trio recovery already!

Also, Rayquaza gets Cosmic Power, but Palkia (a literal space dragon) does not. Hmm....

The upside to this is that my worries of Groudon getting Dragon Dance were unfounded, so we can breathe a sigh of relief that the ultimate sweeper is not yet upon us.

 

[MC Squared]

It looks like Game Freak put significantly less thought into this round compared to the last, which while not unexpected, also is slightly disappointing. I was looking forward to seeing Dragon Dance Garchomp, Giratina-O, Dialga, and Palkia. Tragic that Giratina didn't get body press, might have been an interesting addition to its movepool. Game Freak give the timespace trio recovery already!

Also, Rayquaza gets Cosmic Power, but Palkia (a literal space dragon) does not. Hmm....

The upside to this is that my worries of Groudon getting Dragon Dance were unfounded, so we can breathe a sigh of relief that the ultimate sweeper is not yet upon us.

It's just the same as the first round. WE just expected too much

 

[theotherguytm]

On a subject I thought of earlier...
List of viable Z-move users
Eternatus (Cannot Dynamax, so Z moves are its best bet for blowing past the sturdiest walls, and it has a truly Devastating Drake. However, it often prefers to outlast/slowly overwhelm opposing walls rather than blow through them.)
Arceus-Ground (Not a good Dynamaxer, but often needs to in order to defensively check certain threats/not get trapped by Mega Gar. From a purely offensive standpoint, Tectonic Rage is natural, but the consistent power of a Plate is good.)
Lunala (Another weak Dynamaxer, with a signature Z move, but usually needs to hold Boots rather than Lunaluim Z)
Arceus-Ghost (Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure a Z move coming off Shadow Force is the only reason this thing's offensive sets are ok. Edit: I'm wrong lol, even this is listed as Spooky Plate in the set compendium.)
Necrozma-Ultra (Forced to)
Other Arceus forms (Can't be bothered to list every one of them with an offensive set, same story, they like other items more.)
Zacian (Again, cannot Dynamax, but is better off Choiced on most offensive sets. Swords Dance to go with it sounds neat though, but this is theory.)
Kyurem-B (Already niche mon and a bad Dynamaxer.)
Would run a Z move, but prefers Dynamax
Yveltal (Darkium/Flyinium weren't terrible last gen, but weren't exactly optimal. With Max Air being as OP as it is, this should never run a Z move again.)
Necrozma-Dusk-Mane (Solgalium Z is waste of this thing's surprisingly potent semi-defensive Dynamax. With Max Guard to stall out opposing Dynas, Weakness Policy to exploit its ability to take absurd SE hits while Dyna'd, QuakeSpike {copyrighting that right now} to raise both its defences... Yeah. This thing is the 3rd best Dyna mon in the game, which makes Ultra Nec sad.)
Excadrill (QuakeSpike compensates for its terrible defenses, Rockfall lets it set its own sand... Yeah. While it's mainly on the VR as a suicide lead, the Sand Rush set can be a good sleeper pick in the right situations, probably D rank level. SD 3 Attacks blows holes in pretty much everything not called ZyGod under sand. Hard stopped by Primals and Mega Ray though. Dyna or a Z move is pretty mandatory to do anything to tougher opposing mons.)
Kartana (pretty self-explanatory if you looked at OU when Dyna was legal.)
Dugtrio (needs Dyna or a Z move to actually trap things lol)
Naganadel (Yep.)
And that's the lot. Tell me if any of this is inaccurate or there's any mons I missed, because I really want a clear picture of how good/bad Z moves are RN.

 

[Dek]

Hi. Someone datamined Pokemon Home and found a list of TRs and TMs for every single Pokemon, including those not in Sword and Shield. I've been told this will be implemented for NatDex, so there's a cool bunch of additions that we get. It should be noted that most of these are pretty much useless, but they could potentially be used on gimmick sets. I've listed a few notable ones below; however, even these are not amazing honestly.

Overall, a lot of common sense quality of life additions were made. A lot of defensive Pokemon also got access to Body Press, Cosmic Power and/or Stored Power. I'll continue adding things to this as I go through the pastebins, but this is what I've found so far.

Notable
Heat Crash
Flare Blitz, Mystical Fire, Air Slash
Baton Pass, Encore, Stored Power, Rest, Electroweb, Power Swap
Play Rough, Draining Kiss

Somewhat useful
Dragon Dance
Body Press
Nasty Plot
Close Combat, U-turn, Aura Sphere
Cosmic Power, Megahorn
Cosmic Power, Stored Power
Play Rough, Mystical Fire, Baton Pass, Encore, Body Press
Breaking Swipe, Body Slam
Solar Blade
Close Combat, U-turn
Air Slash
Spikes, Toxic Spikes, Dragon Dance, Breaking Swipe, Hex
Cosmic Power, Hydro Pump
Protect, Rest, Body Press, Heat Crash, Darkest Lariat
Body Press
Body Press
Body Press, Heat Crash
Play Rough, Close Combat
Nasty Plot, Weather Ball
Breaking Swipe

Cool Gimmick
Baton Pass, Encore
Close Combat, Darkest Lariat
Heavy Slam, Body Press, Breaking Swipe
Body Press
Weather Ball
Baton Pass, Mystical Fire, Aura Sphere, Air Slash, Breaking Swipe
Baton Pass, Mystical Fire, Aura Sphere, Air Slash, Breaking Swipe
Nasty Plot, Baton Pass, Encore
Cosmic Power
Close Combat
Dragon Dance
Nasty Plot, Stored Power, Body Press
Agility
Bulk Up
Play Rough, Close Combat, High Horsepower, Darkest Lariat
Weather Ball
Nasty Plot, Baton Pass, Encore
Baton Pass, Encore, Mystical Fire
Hurricane, Air Slash, Brave Bird

Why are there megas and primal?

 

[Zrp200]

Why are there megas and primal?

They are there for two reasons:

1. They exist in this meta. This is NatDex after all.
2. They are present in the pastebins we got this info from, likely as artifacts. While the mega/primal formes don't have updated movepools in the pastes, any change to the base forme's movepool is going to affect the mega/primal anyway; as such, they are listed with the base formes in all cases.