OM National Dex Balanced Hackmons

why are we talking about fc steels when fire STAB is probably at its strongest point? seriously fire STAB is broken:

:sv/deoxys-attack:

Deoxys-Attack @ Charcoal
Ability: Orichalcum Pulse
Tera Type: Fire
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- V-create
- Eruption
- Blue Flare
- Electro Drift

generally checks to it are fc waters, which are nigh-mandatory on teams. however, what can you do against a mon with absurdly strong mixed attacking, the highest speed in the meta and no need to predict too much, as erupt+vc/drift kills about everything? band oripulse zacc struggles hard against fc waters and has an iffy pdon matchup, mblaze and pdon are slow (and mblaze is also bad agaisnt fc waters), but eruption/blue flare cleanly 2HKOes pdon, it's definitely not slow (though it's 1 speed point short of tying to fc luna after a vc which pains me) and kills fc waters like nothing. its best checks/improofs? palkia-o and psea zacc. the reason why this set is so hard to switch into? tera. tera gives calcs the extra power necessary, and tera got its best check in zygarde banned. tera is just not healthy for the meta and it's time some people accept it.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9nationaldexbh-1838737092 example match of deoa slaying, some bad luck with a vc miss kinda makes things go south but zacc manages to pull off the win thanks to deoa breaking though the dozo and a speed tie against imposter to compensate my previous horrible rng.

:sv/palkia-origin:

Palkia-Origin @ Lustrous Globe
Ability: Beads of Ruin
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Water Spout
- Dragon Energy
- Strength Sap
- Steam Eruption / Quiver Dance / Tail Glow

this guy has just gotten better, water STAB is very scary with a strong dragon energy to scare pdon and i have been seeing less scales dialga-o recently while scales fairy/groundceus are more popular, and tera water spout is a little chip away from 2HKOing neutral scales arcs. a quad fire resist and knock immunity in this zygardeless meta gives it really nice defensive utility, being actually one of the best pdon checks because of a neutrality to solar beam/edrift.

:sv/lucario-mega:

Lucario-Mega @ Life Orb
Ability: Magic Guard
Tera Type: Fighting
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Steel Beam
- Chloroblast
- Strength Sap
- High Jump Kick

posted this dude on the discord kinda as a meme and i really don't know about it, in some matches it has no switchins and in some others it just does nothing. kinda goofy and tricky to improof but can beat many bulky cores at the same time, its speed is definitely a problem though. not too good but can sometimes do stuff idk

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9nationaldexbh-1831589651 luke doing something

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9nationaldexbh-1834022313 luke doing nothing

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9nationaldexbh-1835101368 here luke's pp issue can be seen, i couldn't just spam steel beam against zacc because of it limited uses and sap rendered hjk useless

overall use it if you want to meme around with something that can actually be useful sometimes idk

also ignore the clod it's goofy but hooh is a better improof tbh
 
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Champion Leon

Banned deucer.
rhydon deez nuts

why are we talking about fc steels when fire STAB is probably at its strongest point? seriously fire STAB is broken:

:sv/deoxys-attack:

Deoxys-Attack @ Charcoal
Ability: Orichalcum Pulse
Tera Type: Fire
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- V-create
- Eruption
- Blue Flare
- Electro Drift

generally checks to it are fc waters, which are nigh-mandatory on teams. however, what can you do against a mon with absurdly strong mixed attacking, the highest speed in the meta and no need to predict too much, as erupt+vc/drift kills about everything? band oripulse zacc struggles hard against fc waters and has an iffy pdon matchup, mblaze and pdon are slow (and mblaze is also bad agaisnt fc waters), but eruption/blue flare cleanly 2HKOes pdon, it's definitely not slow (though it's 1 speed point short of tying to fc luna after a vc which pains me) and kills fc waters like nothing. its best checks/improofs? palkia-o and psea zacc. the reason why this set is so hard to switch into? tera. tera gives calcs the extra power necessary, and tera got its best check in zygarde banned. tera is just not healthy for the meta and it's time some people accept it.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9nationaldexbh-1838737092 example match of deoa slaying, some bad luck with a vc miss kinda makes things go south but zacc manages to pull off the win thanks to deoa breaking though the dozo and a speed tie against imposter to compensate my previous horrible rng.
Why are you struggling to read my post? If I spell it out again that may help you:
Lastly, Rhydon can Tera into Water, giving an advantage over Steelix-Mega, in case they have a Fishous Rend user, or a V-Create user. So it can serve as a Bulky-Water instead of a Bulky Steel.
Meanwhile, the real point was having Ground-type STAB maintained after Tera, so it can still deal enough super effective damage against Pokémon it intended to wall like Zacian-C, rather than just wall passively.
I feel that with Melmetal, Slowbro, and Dondozo they don't offer much of an offensive presence to threaten out Zacian-C, but at least Steelix-Mega and Rhydon do thanks to STAB Ground.
We get it, you wanted an excuse to post your meme Lucario-Mega set, but at least try and acknowledge the point I already made if you plan to respond to it at all...

Moving on to an actually usable set, I think your Deoxys-A is literally just waiting for a Well-Baked Body Mon to wall it.

And you don’t even need a Palkia to wall it, just insert a Primordial Sea user who can handle a neutral Electro Drift without any boost, and your set is trumped.

Honestly, for making a case about how strong Fire is, it is easily shut down, without any regard to relying on FC, it can be negated by weather alone, and not necessarily even by Defensive Pokémon, a Primordial Sea Zacian-C can Easily come in, and shut down 3/4 moves your set includes.

Also, on something so frail, is it really not worth using Life Orb to boost Electro Drift? It’s missing out on Ori Pulse’s boost for Atk, since it’s a SpA, lacks STAB, and has no other boost.

Just add Life Orb so it can at least try to threaten its intended targets.

I think if I was completely concerned about Fire I would not worry about FC on a Steel-type, Bc a well rounded team already has ways of building out Defensive Cores.

Please don’t try and troll just to be rude. “Rhydon deez nuts?“ Really?
 
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Why are you struggling to read my post? If I spell it out again that may help you:
Meanwhile, the real point was having Ground-type STAB maintained after Tera, so it can still deal enough super effective damage against Pokémon it intended to wall like Zacian-C, rather than just wall passively.
We get it, you wanted an excuse to post your meme Lucario-Mega set, but at least try and acknowledge the point I already made if you plan to respond to it at all...

Moving on to an actually usable set, I think your Deoxys-A is literally just waiting for a Well-Baked Body Mon to wall it.

And you don’t even need a Palkia to wall it, just insert a Primordial Sea user who can handle a neutral Electro Drift without any boost, and your set is trumped.

Honestly, for making a case about how strong Fire is, it is easily shut down, without any regard to relying on FC, it can be negated by weather alone, and not necessarily even by Defensive Pokémon, a Primordial Sea Zacian-C can Easily come in, and shut down 3/4 moves your set includes.

Also, on something so frail, is it really not worth using Life Orb to boost Electro Drift? It’s missing out on Ori Pulse’s boost for Atk, since it’s a SpA, lacks STAB, and has no other boost.

Just add Life Orb so it can at least try to threaten its intended targets.

I think if I was completely concerned about Fire I would not worry about FC on a Steel-type, Bc a well rounded team already has ways of building out Defensive Cores.

Please don’t try and troll just to be rude. “Rhydon deez nuts?“ Really?
don't hate on dtc, he's just bringing joy to the thread :D just like gulpin will when ndbh lc comes out

Anyways not the point.

The standard fc wall is easy to exploit. That's because it is extremely passive, the goal of the wall is to make the opposing mon less threatening and then safely switch to a stronger attacker.

Well that's where you realise that you don't have to be strong enough to break the fc wall with head on attacks but something smart enough. Like i said before, they're very passive, which means they don't plan to ohko you, but heal up and slowly chip you or neutralise you and switch out. That's where the exploit comes in

rather than aiming for the 2hko why not just go with even a 5hko as long as you stop them from healing? taunt could be a great set for anti-stall even in this meta

been caught up in studies so i'll post a few sets some other time
 
don't hate on dtc, he's just bringing joy to the thread :D just like gulpin will when ndbh lc comes out
Don't forget slugma.

On the topic of ndbh lc, when's ndbh uu coming out? We need to get tiering so that I can unleash my volcarona in the pits of ndbh nu.

With the memes aside, I figured I might as wellpost my team at this point. It's undergone several revisions since the start of the season and makes for a team that's decent, especially for newbies like me punching up at people who have been at this for generations.

:mewtwo-mega-y::zacian-crowned::slowbro-mega::arceus-ground::giratina::dialga-origin:

Balance team where each piece has a job, so its fairly intuitive while still being effective. Mbro is a physical wall, his job is to deal with physical attackers, shut them down, and move on. Groundceus does the same on the special side. Both have just enough power to threaten 3 or 4 hit kos on things they sit, so between that and recovery, things can't necessarily stay in on you. zacian is fairly standard cb tinted. Tera steel if you don't need to defensive tera and wallbreak. Mmy is some speed control, since it survives any espeed and hits back, and can run a variety of moves. scarf modest armor cannon guarantees to outspeed zac-c and ohko, while headlong rush outspeeds and ohkos cheese regieleki while still threatening dia-o. Collision course can be run over headlong if you want a cleaner kill dia and to threaten darkceus, while headlong rush 2hkos pdon if you predict the switch. Additionally, another choice item can be used to better check walls if zac and deo-a aren't problems, if you're expecting to see more stall, or slower teams. Gira is setup check, fast pivot and secondary hazard control, everything you want from a prank, while dia-o is primary hazrd control and slower pivot.

Libero :mewtwo-mega-x: and ;deoxys-attack: are good mixed breakers that threaten both walls with the right coverage, but if you can get mmy in, both fold like laundry. Slowbro also folds to cb tinted :zacian-crowned: after ashield is knocked off, and the team doesn't have a fantastic koff scout. Additionally, the rare speed boosting nature scarf :mewtwo-mega-x: and :gengar-mega: outspeed mmy and ohko it, which can catch you off guard. Also defensive phealers can be annoying since you don't have a great status absorber, and protects stop your dual choiced attackers in their tracks.

Not sure if it's really worthy of sample, but I've been finding a lot of fun and success with it.
 

Champion Leon

Banned deucer.
don't hate on dtc, he's just bringing joy to the thread :D just like gulpin will when ndbh lc comes out

Anyways not the point.

The standard fc wall is easy to exploit. That's because it is extremely passive, the goal of the wall is to make the opposing mon less threatening and then safely switch to a stronger attacker.

Well that's where you realise that you don't have to be strong enough to break the fc wall with head on attacks but something smart enough. Like i said before, they're very passive, which means they don't plan to ohko you, but heal up and slowly chip you or neutralise you and switch out. That's where the exploit comes in

rather than aiming for the 2hko why not just go with even a 5hko as long as you stop them from healing? taunt could be a great set for anti-stall even in this meta

been caught up in studies so i'll post a few sets some other time
I guess you lost your point 1-1 with me earlier, so hopping on the other person's post where they sexual harass me is your idea of joy?

Please don't sink to his level, I don't think that bodes well for you.

On the rest of your post: Having a passive wall is always optional, that's why some people use Ice Scales Dialga, not just due to the typing but due to the offensive mixed with defensive stats, since it can afford to hit well enough with Core Enforcer or on your set with Doom Desire, on even neutral targets.

Dialga-Origin @ Ability Shield
Ability: Ice Scales
Tera Type: Flying
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Spectral Thief
- Doom Desire
- Teleport
- Heal Order

As for Fur Coat walls, we have seen Fur Coat walls like Lunala with Infernal Parade mix status spreading with solid damage due to, as Chessking pointed out in one of his initial VRs, or as DTC pointed out in one of his team sets:

Lunala @ Ability Shield
Ability: Fur Coat
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Bold Nature
- Heal Order
- Infernal Parade
- Rapid Spin
- Nuzzle

Overall, my point was to highlight Pokemon that seemed nearly forgotten, like Melmetal, and see if their differing pure Steel type, and superior Atk can prevent them from feeling passive. Especially since even Body Press can allow it to avoid the loss of power from Strength Sap.

Rhydon's ability to Tera into Water or Steel, while still being able to hit some of the biggest threats like Zacian-C with STAB Ground-moves, allows their comparable bulk to stay a main highlight, while its disadvantage being the risk of Knock Off on Eviolite. Meanwhile, Steelix-Mega / Slowbro-Mega carry more weaknesses and lack the ability to Tera out of their type, and Dondozo lacks any offensive presence.
 
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I guess you lost your point 1-1 with me earlier, so hopping on the other person's post where they sexual harass me is your idea of joy?

Please don't sink to his level, I don't think that bodes well for you.

On the rest of your post: Having a passive wall is always optional, that's why some people use Ice Scales Dialga, not just due to the typing but due to the offensive mixed with defensive stats, since it can afford to hit well enough with Core Enforcer or on your set with Doom Desire, on even neutral targets.

Dialga-Origin @ Ability Shield
Ability: Ice Scales
Tera Type: Flying
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Spectral Thief
- Doom Desire
- Teleport
- Heal Order

As for Fur Coat walls, we have seen Fur Coat walls like Lunala with Infernal Parade mix status spreading with solid damage due to, as Chessking pointed out in one of his initial VRs, or as DTC pointed out in one of his team sets:

Lunala @ Ability Shield
Ability: Fur Coat
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Bold Nature
- Heal Order
- Infernal Parade
- Rapid Spin
- Nuzzle

Overall, my point was to highlight Pokemon that seemed nearly forgotten, like Melmetal, and see if their differing pure Steel type, and superior Atk can prevent them from feeling passive. Especially since even Body Press can allow it to avoid the loss of power from Strength Sap.

Rhydon's ability to Tera into Water or Steel, while still being able to hit some of the biggest threats like Zacian-C with STAB Ground-moves, allows their comparable bulk to stay a main highlight, while its disadvantage being the risk of Knock Off on Eviolite. Meanwhile, Steelix-Mega / Slowbro-Mega carry more weaknesses and lack the ability to Tera out of their type, and Dondozo lacks any offensive presence.
252 Atk Choice Band Tinted Lens Tera Steel Zacian-Crowned Sunsteel Strike vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Eviolite Tera Water Rhydon: 170-200 (41 - 48.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

yhyh makes a lot of sense, just one teensy problem, you see rhydon has poopy typing from the start so i doubt it should be that much of an idea. I didn't mean to offend you in any way and i'm sorry if i did but can we please just drop the rhydon thing? if it's so good then use it in a battle and you'll realise how unreliable it is due to the existence of knock off. The eviolite will go bye bye and rhydon simply doesn't carry smth too new to the tier. this is all in theory so i will try using it later but i still have some doubts in it. Melmetal on the other hand has potential despite the presence of monsters like pdon and have seen it used pretty well.

as for the funny:

Noticed that pdon has been used more and more but a lot of them lack ground moves, could zacian possibly check pdon without it's tera? because at this point pdon picks shift gear or sbeam/edrift or some other niche/coverage move over it's old ground moves so gotta watch out for that before pdon's potential drops.

Then theres gyarados. Been seeing big mouth a lot more over the tier, its good offenses and defences make a great hazard setter and status spreader, or even sweeper on many teams. i suggest raising it's tier a bit because it is pretty versatile and splashable on teams. honestly it feels like a slower worse typing zacian in some ways but yh, a pretty cool mon overall. I suffer to not have a gyarados in all my teams.

Also stop forgetting to check other zacian sets!!! so what if tinted zacian is dominant? what about the old serence grace confusion hax set? what about the other sets that will come rolling back and hit you and your walls in the face? the dog is too versatile.

Lastly I would like to make a short request to the council to consider banning dire claw? I have some reasoning for this too.

This move is pretty underused so it's hard to understand it but the lack of heal bell and aroma therapy on teams makes this move suspiciously powerful. Now i know that the common statuses can be inflicted by moves like glare or will-o-wisp or mortal spin but the part of dire claw that makes it awfully threatening is sleep. Sleep moves are overpowered and theres also a reason they're banned. If dire claw doesn't seem banworthy atleast add the sleep clause so that not over 1 pokemon can be put to sleep? otherwise dire claw makes the entire team sleep and bullies them a ton. that's all.

Also please don't take jokes too far leon, i don't think anyone here had any intention of offending you, no-one is scheming against you in any way. There is no score to keep, this thread is just to share sets so players can improve at the game and understand stuff better.
 
While this is moreso aimed at a few specific unnamed users, this is a message for everyone in the thread. We aren't going to deal with this kind of off-topic stuff here, so stick to actually helpful metagame development etc. here, thanks. This is your only warning, you're not children. Grow up.
 

Champion Leon

Banned deucer.
In moving forward, I wanted to say I appreciate Clas' post to ensure positive, useful discussion is maintained and kept in mind Before A Post is Typed. After all, the best way to not offend someone, is to not write something offensive...

That being said, an underutilized Pokemon is not automatically a meme, so I appreciate Cta admitting it was theory to assume it wasn't good at all.
We can only discover sets and Pokemon that end up becoming meta as we explore beyond the staples.

I remember I was the user who actually discovered Cramorant-Gorging form last generation, and that literally changed the entire metagame of BH, and even Pure Hackmons, and in BH it was eventually banned. It was discovered about 1 year into the metagame, so things had already felt like they had "settled" since the generation began.

Even so, a seemingly useless Pokemon on paper, is sometimes a Pokemon with unique features that drive its usage where you now need to anticipate your opponent will likely use it.

Once Cramorant-Gorging became common, its usage caused a chain reaction of lesser-used abilities and moves such as Misty Surge and Aromatherapy to suddenly become more common, now establishing new sets as "standard". Being open to what is unexplored keeps the metagame fresh, and allows for more builds to get the attention they deserve.
________
On another note, I agree that Gyarados-Mega and Zacian-C are strong Pokemon to prepare for, although I also feel like Gigaton Hammer is a bit suspect-worthy.

Sure, having a dedicated Fur Coat Ability Shield resist user always helps, but the move is just so easily exploited. I don't think Zacian-C is overpowered, but Gigaton feels a bit.
 
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anaconja

long day at job
is a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributor
that heracross set looks laughably bad. first of all your idea that heracross somehow checks zacian is highly inaccurate when a majority of zacians run fairy or fire moves, or just do this: 252 Atk Choice Band Tera Steel Zacian-Crowned Sunsteel Strike vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Heracross-Mega: 260-308 (71.4 - 84.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

additionally, half of these calcs dont matter because kyurem-b is an uncommon sight, youre using band drain punch against a dia-o who is definitely switching out, youre using drain punch against a gyarados who is definitely switching out, and the horn leech against flutter mane calc doesnt matter because 1) its a very aggressive move to send in a 55/55 bulk mon against a 185 atk mon and 2) youre using 4 atks life orb heracross which is the worst set in existence. its only upside is maybe luring mmy which is done better by stuff like protean pursuit zacc and even band tc pheromosa (which to be clear is almost as bad). as you said its easily improofable by giratina which means its easily beat by opposing giratina, but not only that: fairy-types, ghost-types, fire-types, and imposter all easily switch into this mon. youre trading the ability to possibly beat fully offensive teams (which basically dont exist) for the ability to beat virtually any mon that resists its stabs (which definitely do exist). theres a good reason why heracross has been borderline unviable in every generation its existed in.

as for gigaton hammer the only other mon who has a remotely signifcant usage besides zacc is kartana who has to deal with a much lower speed and bulk which heavily limits its ability to wallbreak. assist might be "annoying" but that doesn't make it overpowered or uncompetitive, and besides if it were then assist would be the one getting suspected/qb'd as v-create has the same effect (i have faced both).

in fact council is considering suspecting zac-c due to its tera steel tinted lens sets somewhat mandating ability shield fc steel resists. the zyg-c ban definitely didnt help as it was one of the best physical walls.
 
although I also feel like Gigaton Hammer is a bit suspect-worthy.

Sure, having a dedicated Fur Coat Ability Shield resist user always helps, but the move is just so easily exploited. I don't think Zacian-C is overpowered, but Gigaton feels a bit.
I think that's a symptom of only running one team more than gigaton itself. Any fc wall that's not fairyceus handles any incoming gigaton fairly well. What allows the tinted zacc set to fluorish is sunsteel striking on fc switchins and flipping the mu into 2hkos. The issue is that the metagame's evolved, and now your single team loses to the most common set of the most common pokemon in the tier. As metas evolve, the threats change, and stall teams like yours have to be really mindful of those changes and react to them to ensure they always have an answer to those big threats, just like how offensive sets need to be reactive to the big walls of the meta. When fc waters became really big, phys attackers started carrying electric and grass coverage to hit them specifically, and it goes both ways.

As for my thoughts on Zac-c, I think the sum of tera steel, tinted and sunsteel are the big issues, since the other sets, like SoR, Protean, Pixilate, Opulse and Primsea aren't really broken. I think tera is the biggest issue, but a tinted/sunsteel restriction like the comatalk restriction might be better, to prematurely ensure that kartana doesn't end up doing the same thing.
 
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Champion Leon

Banned deucer.
I think that's a symptom of only running one team more than gigaton itself. Any fc wall that's not fairyceus handles any incoming gigaton fairly well. What allows the tinted zacc set to fluorish is sunsteel striking on fc switchins and flipping the mu into 2hkos. The issue is that the metagame's evolved, and now your single team loses to the most common set of the most common pokemon in the tier. As metas evolve, the threats change, and stall teams like yours have to be really mindful of those changes and react to them to ensure they always have an answer to those big threats, just like how offensive sets need to be reactive to the big walls of the meta. When fc waters became really big, phys attackers started carrying electric and grass coverage to hit them specifically, and it goes both ways.

As for my thoughts on Zac-c, I think the sum of tera steel, tinted and sunsteel are the big issues, since the other sets, like SoR, Protean, Pixilate, Opulse and Primsea aren't really broken. I think tera is the biggest issue, but a tinted/sunsteel restriction like the comatalk restriction might be better, to prematurely ensure that kartana doesn't end up doing the same thing.
I just double-checked and it shows that:

252 Atk Choice Band Tinted Lens Tera Steel Zacian-Crowned Gigaton Hammer vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Fur Coat Arceus-Water: 186-220 (41.8 - 49.5%) -- 85.5% chance to 2HKO after 1 layer of Spikes

I don’t think a near 2HKO is “fairly” well, especially if even minor chip such as 1 hazard is enough to push it to 2HKO territory.

You made it seem like anything not weak to Steel with Fur Coat can cope, but I don’t agree.

Sure, them being choice locked into Struggle the next turn is far weaker, but they get a free turn to switch to a dedicated teammate on the turn you have to Heal your Fur Coat wall.

So your wall gives them a free switch. The only thing you accomplished was trying to wear down their 8 PP and hope they will use the same attack again when you pivot In your dedicated wall.

If you don’t know if they pack a coverage KO move for your wall, then what else can handle Gigaton Hammer? Most teams don’t include more than 1 FC wall. Therefore Sunsteel Strike combined with Gigaton Hammer is formidable, but Sunsteel Strike isn’t the nuke, it’s just designed for their 1 Fur Coat Wall, and is weaker against anything that doesn’t have Fur Coat.

This allows them to clear your team, barring Fur Coat or 4x resists. And at that point they don’t need Sunsteel Strike, Bc if it was banned they would just be able to replace it with an additional coverage move.

So instead of worrying about having to preserve your Ability Shield, you worry about if they have a super effective move, and with high powered moves like Fishous, Wicked Blow, V-Create, Gigaton, etc. It would be hard to find one that can handle all moves.
 
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It is still Gigaton Hammer off of CB, so its still handling well. You just have to be mindful of Sunsteel instead (which actually does 2HKO w/o ashield, hence why u really want knock support with it or just on it). I'm gonna agree with izlore that the issue is still Zacian itself though.
 
I just want to say, that without Tera, it's not a 2hko at all, and this nightmare ends.

Also, fc waters handle v-create and fishious very well, and while mbro folds to wicked, dozo and waterceus still take it very well bc you aren't dealing with tera+stab, which is what makes the combo so strong.

Edit: After receiving new information, my new take, is that I'm not sure removing Zac necessarily fixes the issue. It's certainly a problem right now, but we'd have to see how the metagame develops without the bonk dog.
 
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Hello I made this team: Kangaskhan-M Team (pokepast.es)
Any reviews and ideas would be greatly appreciated. This is gonna be a project because I am new to this and it probably won’t be very good.
(Btw can you try to build around M-Kangaskhan and not delete it since I want it to be about it)
Kang's best sets use Nature's Madness/Ruination to quarter any mon's hp, followed by either night shade or espeed. I know anaconja's made a fairly good kang team, so they'd probably know more.

Using Chansey as your only setup check is bold. I'd consider adding haze, spthief or topsy turvy to at least the arceus, possibly in place of multiattack, then swapping item to covert cloak to protect vs lumina crash, anchor shot, etc. But adding one of those 3 moves at least one other would be good.

You may want to swap out one of the pieces for a fc wall, given that tinted zac-c is running rampant rn
 
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Hello I made this team: Kangaskhan-M Team (pokepast.es)
Any reviews and ideas would be greatly appreciated. This is gonna be a project because I am new to this and it probably won’t be very good.
(Btw can you try to build around M-Kangaskhan and not delete it since I want it to be about it)
hey so pretty cool team you have, with kang i dont think you should delete it but two points

first, megas can't tera, ive made this mistake a bunch but this second one is more important: kangaskhan is best as a wallbreaker so here is what i think would be an optimal set for it

:sv/kangaskhan:

Kangaskhan (F) @ Kangaskhanite
Ability: Speed Boost
Tera Type: Normal
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Ruination
- Ceaseless Edge/Night Shade/Extreme Speed
- Seismic Toss/Night Shade
- Heal Order

This is an optimal kang set in my opinion because it outspeeds all walls at +1 speed and 2hkos them with the ruination s-toss combo, even blissey can't freely switch on it due to the ruination being powered up. Honestly since you told not to mess with kang im suggesting this but there are better breakers out there too.

Next: as for the team. It seems as if you've just pasted sets that you found lying around the thread like the gyarados, arceus, mgar and zard along with literally copy pasting anaconja's old chansey, but the seem to not have any synergy at all like chansey getting rid of gyarados's pheal... next they also don't seem to defend well against most meta threats with the lack of an fc wall

So here is a revision of all the team members, their problems and possible revision

Kang - note that you have used 3/4 of the moves that are available to kangaskhan naturally, prolly try and use the breaker set i mentioned above if you want it to be able to do better, otherwise i have no problems with kang tbh
Mgar - why is this here again? It kinda takes up the slot usually designated for an fc wall so you should prolly switch it out otherwise no complaints on the set, however it is walled by a standard scales mon, prolly give it trick for that since yours is scarf over specs?
Chansey - this is literally a copy paste of anaconja's old chansey set, drop shore up, get heal order over shore up, heal bell hurts gyarados, perhaps give it metal burst or smth as a filler over heal bell killing gyarados
Gyarados - as much as i love mega gyarados your team can't really stay on the offensive too much and you should prolly add a more passive phealer like my yveltal set or anaconja's xerneas set to be able to defend a little better, something more reliable for defence.
Fairyceus - your phealer already controls hazards, doubt you need spin. It doesn't really need to be fairyceus as there are other choices too but thats not a problem. Also give it spectral thief to deal with setup like tail glow and to improof zard properly
Charizard - yh this set is fine but it needs to be improofed by the team, it improofing kang is a nice finishing touch on the set so i don't really have any issues with it, if you like you could drop that for yveltal for more bulk at the cost of spatk but you also get tera that way. Since tera is expendable on this team keep tera flying yveltal over this thing ig

Heres a revised version, used anaconja's xern since yveltal was already used and there was no need for too many hazards

Edit: you can change the xern to yveltal if you want but then swap out to ray for the triage user if you want, i tested it on ladder and ray is pretty nice, tera steel improofs along with some pretty decent bulk, still less bulky then yveltal but pretty good.

https://pokepast.es/868da6e635636aec
 
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Champion Leon

Banned deucer.
Greetings,
Submitting a Sample Team on behalf of TheRealOne, upon their request:
1681682216867.png

Here is a replay I have after testing it Vs 1522 High Ladder Player
:Gengar-Mega: leads as it safely pivots off high-speed Volt Switches, to send in :Ting-Lu: to set down hazards on the foe's team. :Ting-Lu: also supports the team by spreading Nuzzle Paralysis, so as to ensure any set-up or faster threats are now outsped by :Gengar-Mega:. It's Ice Scales also serves as a nice wall for Special Attackers, including allowing it to Improof :Gengar-Mega: itself. :Arceus-Water: offers the Fur Coat support and its helpful resistances make for an easy switch-in for Fishous Rends that threatens :Ting-Lu:, in addition to Steel / Fire / Ice offense. :Arceus-Water: provides Mortal Spin support to not only clear hazards, but also spread Poison, which allows it to serve as an Improof against enemy :Ting-Lu: as well. Covert Cloak can be replaced by Ability Shield if need be, but Covert Cloak also lets it improof against Imposter :Arceus-Water: too via Mortal Spin.

:Giratina: serves as a standard Prankster Hazer, while Red Orb :Groudon: provides Knock Off support, and handles opposing Fur Coat :Arceus-Water: via Solar Beam. Imposter Eviolite :Chansey: aids as a last resort if the foe has a sweeper, or just a useful Pokemon worth copying, and if the foe has Imposter out you can use its original moveset for Court Change, Aromatherapy, or Whirlwind utility.

:Gengar-Mega::Ting-Lu::Arceus-Water::Giratina::Groudon::Chansey:

Pokemon like MG :Mewtwo-Mega-Y: can pose a threat since it outspeeds :Gengar-Mega:, can opt for Chloroblast on :Arceus-Water:, threaten :Ting-Lu: with physical High-Jump Kick Fighting coverage, and overall feel unpredictable. :Flutter Mane: with Specs and Tera Fairy Boomburst can also pose a threat to Giratina and can hurt Ting-Lu, but are still handled by Imposter, or after Giratina Teras into Steel.
 

Champion Leon

Banned deucer.
Please don’t use my team as an excuse to make your point.

After defeating most Tera Steel Tinted Lens Zacian-C teams, I proved my own team’s merit then and now.

Afterall, you feel it is the most common set on the most common Pokémon. Did you think I only won against teams that don’t use that particular set?
I think that's a symptom of only running one team more than gigaton itself. Any fc wall that's not fairyceus handles any incoming gigaton fairly well. What allows the tinted zacc set to fluorish is sunsteel striking on fc switchins and flipping the mu into 2hkos. The issue is that the metagame's evolved
The metagame is centralizing on Tinted Lens Zacian-C for a reason, and if we removed Sunsteel Strike the reason would still be there…

Teams typically only include Fur Coat on 1 Pokémon, so on anything else the foe would click on Gigaton Hammer.

Even so —

252 Atk Choice Band Tinted Lens Tera Steel Zacian-Crowned Gigaton Hammer vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Fur Coat Arceus-Water: 186-220 (41.8 - 49.5%) -- 85.5% chance to 2HKO after 1 layer of Spikes
Now your single team loses to the most common set of the most common pokemon in the tier. As metas evolve, the threats change, and stall teams like yours have to be really mindful of those changes and react to them to ensure they always have an answer to those big threats.
Vs Wish Forevermore

I handled Tera Zacian-Crowned and won 4-0

I also rematched Vs Wish Forevermore and could easily outstall it with Tapu-Fini alone, as well as actual higher ranked players.

It’s the equivalent of clicking Ori Pulse V-Create except there are no Steel-Immunity abilities… Ori Pulse V-Create is 1.3 x 1.5 = 1.95x damage vs a resist / 2 = 97.5% (similar to Tinted Lens at 100% on a resist).

Zacian-C, and Kartana, however, unlike Blaziken-Mega can Tera to further push the power up, and have more speed. But they werent ever considered for Suspect unless in reference to using Gigaton Hammer.
My point in suspecting Gigaton was also not just limited to Tinted Lens sets, a Fur Coat Pokémon still needs to resist Steel in case it packs Steely Spirit or Swords of Ruin for an even stronger hit on neutral targets.

Having to limit your Fur Coat wall to a Steel resist is for (switching into) Gigaton Hammer, having to add Ability Shield is general utility for Sunsteel Strike and other purposes like Entrainment, Core Enforcer, and MMX Photon Geyser.

The point on suspecting Gigaton Hammer, is there are no replacements for that on a Steel-Type, which means that if a Steel-type is sweeping, it’s due to that move’s overwhelming power.
 
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Greetings,
Submitting a Sample Team on behalf of TheRealOne, upon their request:
View attachment 508238
Here is a replay I have after testing it Vs 1522 High Ladder Player
:Gengar-Mega: leads as it safely pivots off high-speed Volt Switches, to send in :Ting-Lu: to set down hazards on the foe's team. :Ting-Lu: also supports the team by spreading Nuzzle Paralysis, so as to ensure any set-up or faster threats are now outsped by :Gengar-Mega:. It's Ice Scales also serves as a nice wall for Special Attackers, including allowing it to Improof :Gengar-Mega: itself. :Arceus-Water: offers the Fur Coat support and its helpful resistances make for an easy switch-in for Fishous Rends that threatens :Ting-Lu:, in addition to Steel / Fire / Ice offense. :Arceus-Water: provides Mortal Spin support to not only clear hazards, but also spread Poison, which allows it to serve as an Improof against enemy :Ting-Lu: as well. Covert Cloak can be replaced by Ability Shield if need be, but Covert Cloak also lets it improof against Imposter :Arceus-Water: too via Mortal Spin.

:Giratina: serves as a standard Prankster Hazer, while Red Orb :Groudon: provides Knock Off support, and handles opposing Fur Coat :Arceus-Water: via Solar Beam. Imposter Eviolite :Chansey: aids as a last resort if the foe has a sweeper, or just a useful Pokemon worth copying, and if the foe has Imposter out you can use its original moveset for Court Change, Aromatherapy, or Whirlwind utility.

:Gengar-Mega::Ting-Lu::Arceus-Water::Giratina::Groudon::Chansey:

Pokemon like MG :Mewtwo-Mega-Y: can pose a threat since it outspeeds :Gengar-Mega:, can opt for Chloroblast on :Arceus-Water:, threaten :Ting-Lu: with physical High-Jump Kick Fighting coverage, and overall feel unpredictable. :Flutter Mane: with Specs and Tera Fairy Boomburst can also pose a threat to Giratina and can hurt Ting-Lu, but are still handled by Imposter, or after Giratina Teras into Steel.
Yo thanks for helping me!
I really appreciate your effort to put it here
 

Champion Leon

Banned deucer.
One topic I think we should discuss would be ways to Improof your team.

Simple options like Anchor Shot + Salt Cure / Mortal Spin while holding Covert Cloak come to mind.

This is especially true when the moves you use do not compromise the moveset‘s utility outside of Imposter.

For example, PHeal Regigigas Facade is an obvious example of Improofing, but even when Imposter is not a factor, it delivers sweeping, status absorption, Knock Off absorption, and a nice Immunity to Ghost moves so if your foe has Specs Moongeist Beam / Astral Barrage, it can come in to force a switch.

What are some useful Imposterproofing that players should consider when team building?

These can be self-Improof sets like Covert Cloak Mortal Spin, as well as having a teammate Improof it like switching to a Fur Coat Rocky Helmet user on Population Bomb.

I think it can be broken down into 4 Categories:

Tera-Improof: Gaining an immunity or resistance to your set’s main offensive attack while being able to threaten the Imposter into a KO. An easy example would be Tera Fire V-Create Choice Band Zacian-C 1HKOing Imposter. Or at least undermine their strategy, such as Tera Ghost while you trap their non-Ghost Imposter.

Item Improof: Simply switching to a Rocky Helmet wall to tank the opposing Impostered Population Bomb can spell instant KOs. Other items like Focus Sash can ensure the Imposter is a 2HKO, while you 1HKO in return.

Ability Improof: Similar to Rocky Helmet, Liquid Ooze / Magic Bounce can punish Imposter that expects to heal off Strength Sap on a surprise switch. Entrainment on Normalize, Toxic Orb @ Poison Heal are more obvious examples, but others such as Unburden also work.

Move Improof: Poltergeist fails if the user lacks an item, (I.e. after using the consumable Bezerk Gene), and other moves that have restrictions such as Judgement (rather than a regular Ghost Attack) prevent Imposter from being able to mirror your moves’ functionality.

My personal favorite, especially since no one else really uses it or thought of it:

Using a Magic Bounce sweeper and Improofing with a Parting Shot teammate.

Prankster Parting Shot does work on Dark-types Bc the ability Magic Bounce takes precedence over the opponent’s type. Similar to using Prankster Toxic on a Magic Bounce Steel, it still is sent back at the user.

Prankster Haze users are common walls on teams, so it hardly feels like a compromise especially on a sweeper that blocks Strength Sap.

The goal here is to help newer, and any player really, improve their team building - which is the most important skill to have. Once you have a well-built team you understand how to best use, it will be able to use their Imposter to your own advantage, rather than being used by Imposter for the opponent.

Conversely, it will help you better plan how and when to use Imposter yourself. Such as when to use Eviolite or another item, which Tera to give Imposter, etc.
 
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Honestly, Mray isn't that great imo, it's not that fast and the +1 in spatk or atk from download from the base inteprid sword are nowhere close to being threatening, it has some decent bulk but the moment it's forced to switch out it is pathetically weak, mixed sets are just outclasses by stronger variants like mmx/mmy/deo-a who run more power mixed libero sets as mray is disabled thanks to delta stream. However delta stream isn't an awful ability either, it just doesn't really have any place to be in the tier as it gets outclassed a lot sadly

I tried making it work as its my fav mon but that was a failure
 

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