Doubles National Dex Doubles OU - Metagame Discussion - Zygarde Banned!

[Glimmer]

Nom post!


UR -> T3
This mon totally owns Offense, and unlike Mega Metagross, it checks Flutter Mane decently consistently. Swords Dance Mega Scizor can win against a lot of these common Mega Metagross and Flutter Mane teams, and is one of the best counters to Mega Metagross and uses it as setup fodder. And because of its sheer bulk it can setup on a lot of other things like Tapu Fini.


UR -> T3
Urshifu-Single-Strike being gone means Cresselia can live pretty much every common attack from the metagame. Even though this mon is pretty Fat specific, it is one of the only mons that can destroy opposing Fat this consistently. Providing recovery for teammates such as Mega Salamence, Kyurem-B, Mega Kangaskhan, Mega Scizor, and Volcanion is really valuable, and it can make advantegous positions using Trick Room or Ally Switch.


T3 -> T2
There's a strong argument for Tornadus being a top 5 mon in the meta, Prankster Tailwind is nothing short of incredible, and because Tornadus started running bulkier sets with Modest, Bleakwind Storm has a lot of damage output. Because of the bulk it started running, it is not easy to get off the field and gets a lot of value by the time you can kill it.


T2 -> T1
I have no idea how this mon wasn't voted Tier 1 last slate but yeah, Rillaboom is one of the best mons in the tier along with Flutter Mane. It glues most of the tier together, checking Iron Bundle, Tapu Fini, Urshifu-Rapid, Diancie; and also providing Terrain control and Fake Out. Rillaboom not only enables a ton of teammates, it is also powerful and threatening with a Grassy Surge boosted Grassy Glide and Wood Hammer.


T3 -> T2
Setup got better with the ban of Urshifu-Single-Strike, and being a Steel-type that doesn't resist Bug hurts much less with Genesect being gone, so Jirachi is really good. It is a great partner to Mega Salamence, Zygarde, Annihilape, and Tapu Fini, which are really potent setup sweepers in the current meta. Jirachi also has access to Encore which further enables these setup sweepers as it punishes Fake Out.


T3 -> T2
It was Tier 2 in the previous meta anyways in my opinion, and with the three Physical Attackers that it couldn't previously check consistently being gone, Landorus-Therian is really good. It is the best Stealth Rock setter, it is really offensively and defensively valuable, and it has pivoting and Taunt, making it overall very good.


T4 -> T3
Kingambit loves Dondozo and Urshifu-Single being gone, especially the latter as it was replaced only by its counterpart which doesnt 4x resist Sucker Punch, making it softer of a check at lower percentages of health. Especially with Mega Salamence also getting better, Kingambit's typing is extremely valuable defensively and offensively.


T4 -> T2
Rapid-Strike immediately replaced its more broken brother. Meanwhile it is not as broken as Single-Strike, it brings a better defensive typing to the table, and is just as strong with Unseen Fist. Again, it is not as broken and has more checks, but this does not make it that much worse. Rapid-Strike checks Mega Scizor, Chi-Yu, Chien-Pao, and Volcanion.

won't talk about it much since I haven't used it but it is probably good enough to be ranked.
​

 

[zee]

ANNIHILAPE IS NOW BANNED FROM NATIONAL DEX DOUBLES!
​

	big pichu	smudgerox	eragon11145	qsns	Spurrific	YoBuddy	zee
Annihilape	ban	ban	do not ban	ban	ban	do not ban	ban

Annihilape's Rage Fist stacking has proven to be too much for the tier to handle, as its ability to make excellent use of Terastalization to invert bad matchups and easy access to support moves like screens, Coaching, Heal Pulse, and Pollen Puff from teammates simply make it too difficult to remove before it can muscle through a significant portion of the opponent's team. Rage Fist and Drain Punch gives it an unwallable offensive combination as well, and Defiant means that it cannot be controlled or slowed down by Intimidate. For how easy it is to get snowballing, and for how unpredictable it can be depending on its choice of Tera type, the council has voted by majority to ban Annihilape from the tier.

Annihilape will be banned for this round of the kickoff tournament, please take note of this!

 

[Glimmer]

Nom post wave 2 because Ape Ban Lol (I will also talk about some overrated and underrated mons)


T4 -> T3
Kyurem-B after the Annihilape ban feels much nicer to use, as it has one of its main competitors and checks gone. Tera makes this behemoth of a mon even harder to fight, getting rid of its awful defensive typing for something like Electric, Fairy, Steel, or even Poison-typing is really nice for both Dragon Dance and Assault Vest sets. And with the addition of Clear Amulet, Dragon Dance no longer loses to Incineroar. And if your team can deal with Incineroar already, you can opt to use Loaded Dice, giving it two consistent 100 BP STAB options.


T2 -> T3
This mon has not seen much use at all and is not that hard to check either, and sacrifices the defensive capabilities and power of other Fighting-types like Urshifu-Rapid-Strike for a slightly better Speed tier and STAB option, which makes it not anything extra in my opinion. This coupled with its poor usage makes Marshadow feel lacking in the meta, so it should not be granted the Tier 2 spot anymore.


T3 -> T4
Zamazenta's ability to utilize Coaching really is not anything special right now, Coaching is good, but this mon feels too reliant on Coaching. While it is technically and statistically the best user of it, other Coaching users have more tools to utilize that is not just limited to the move. Meanwhile its defensive typing is unique, pure Fighting does not do extremely well into that much and is generally and active detriment and Zamazenta has to bulk it out to live stuff, which it cannot all the time due to how strong some of our attackers are.


UR -> T4
One of which is Zeraora, who keeps the insane Speed aspect of Zamazenta, but also gets extra support moves like Fake Out, Electroweb, Taunt, and Snarl. While it is not the best user of Coaching as mentioned above, its higher Speed and access to these moves give it an extra niche above Zamazenta, and makes Zeraora better in some cases.

Now the underrated/overrated Pokémon section!


Feels extremely underexplored. Mon has a good Speed tier, insane damage output, and a lot of bulkier cores falter to its presence. It has a lot of good options in terms of items, Life Orb, Fightinium Z, Steelium Z, Focus Sash, and Clear Amulet are all valid in my opinion. I am only not nominating this due to the lack of usage.


Another underexplored mon that should perform well. Trapping is very good and the abundance of utility this mon can provide is absurd just by having Shadow Tag. Pairs up really well with Mega Kangaskhan, Kartana, Urshifu, and many others. Its access to Fake Out, Trick Room, Heal Pulse, Taunt, and even Hypnosis makes it very worthwhile and very good into bulkier teams.


With the banning of Annihilape I think Kommo-o has a good chance of being the new good setup Fighting-type. With counterplay to Tapu Fini not being ever so high, Kommo-o has a decent shot of being good.


Thoughts about it is the same as previous post, use this mon.


I do not think Landorus-I is that good, quite middling in performance in all honesty. The spread move is not strong enough, Landorus is not fast enough, it in general is not good enough for me to use it above Landorus-T in most cases. Dare I say it could even be Tier 4, but I do not feel that strongly about it. It just feels awkward to use when you could be using its far better forme.


Incineroar feels barely top 5 anymore, I rate Volcanion above it all the time. While its typing is good, it does kinda make it the only Fire-type to be bad into one of if not the best Pokémon in the metagame, Flutter Mane. Covert Cloak and Clear Amulet can also just be slapped onto stuff that Incineroar would normally check so that it would get screwed over. Do not get me wrong, Incineroar is still a very good Pokémon, but it does not feel that good to me nowadays.​

 

[Smudge]

The ladder is now open!

To be completely honest, I didn't expect it to be today, but the current plan is to update the VR within a few days and the samples within a week or so.

If you're a player just joining the tier, and are looking for a cool team to jump on the ladder with, I'd highly recommend checking out the recent weeks of the Teambuilding Competition. The winners should all be solid enough to play with and have fun!

I'd like to especially thank R8 and the rest of the National Dex staff for their incredible support.

 

[Astro Nation Shoe]

Peaked using Zapdos-G Sun https://pokepast.es/f650eaa2a42af84d

 

[Fenghuang]

My (very preliminary) thoughts on the metagame after playing around a bit:

1) Weather is really strong. Sun is really strong because of the powerful combination of Yzard and Chi-Yu. Because of this, sand and particularly rain are really strong to counter it.
2) Hard Trick Room seems really bad, but semiroom feels like it has unexplored potential.
3) Screens and Stealth Rock are both pretty important. I actually feel like cinderace might do well in this meta, though my attempts haven't worked super well.

 

[YoBuddy]

Posting on behalf of our tier leaders:

With a unanimous 7/7 votes Assist has been BANNED from Nat Dex DOU. Assist allows teams to call the move Revival Blessing and bypass its 1PP drawback, enabling dedicated ‘Revivecats’ teams to stall for an excessive amount of time. Assist was tested by the council back in the early days of Nat Dex DOU being a challenge only format but was found to be unreliable. However now that Nat Dex DOU has a ladder there have been users spamming Revivecats on the ladder. While the council does not necessarily believe that Assist is broken we believe it has no positive influence on the tier and leaving Assist legal would be detrimental to the health of the ladder and tournament scene.

 

[Contose]

Where is Dynamax???
New player, just created multiple boxes for top VGC mons from SM-SV Reg D, and this thread, why is there no dmax. was it tested and deemed uncompetitive? is it a technical difficulty? when you can run Z moves, Terra, and Mega.

 

[Smudge]

Where is Dynamax???
New player, just created multiple boxes for top VGC mons from SM-SV Reg D, and this thread, why is there no dmax. was it tested and deemed uncompetitive? is it a technical difficulty? when you can run Z moves, Terra, and Mega.

It's a technical restriction, as I understand it. Personally, I'd love to at least be able to test it, or have it available for a side DUbers format.

Sorry, but I'm not sure what you're talking about with multiple boxes (unless you mean the PS feature) and VGC as this format is played on Showdown! and is 6v6, not on cart.

 

[Contose]

Sorry, but I'm not sure what you're talking about with multiple boxes (unless you mean the PS feature) and VGC as this format is played on Showdown! and is 6v6, not on cart

You can still create showdown boxes, i always use them for say mons w/ a specific move, set of moves, or just whole tiers.

 

[R8]

Where is Dynamax???
New player, just created multiple boxes for top VGC mons from SM-SV Reg D, and this thread, why is there no dmax. was it tested and deemed uncompetitive? is it a technical difficulty? when you can run Z moves, Terra, and Mega.

In a nutshell, the way natdex works is assuming transfers of items/pokemon/moves from the current generation to gen7 (the last gen before the dex cut), adapting mechanics to the way they work the current generation, or the last generation they were available (pursuit works like in gen7, teleport like in gen9, etc). Pokemon are not able to dynamax in gen9, especially since dynamax is not a mechanic linked to a move, held item or ability that is still available in national dex.

If you want to read more about the current identity of National Dex formats, I redirect you to this thread (specifically the post linked). If you have more questions regarding the identity of national dex formats in general, feel free to ask in the short questions - short answers thread or in my PMs.

 

[Smudge]

The viability rankings have been updated! You can see them on post #2, which is where they permanently reside, and you can see each member's votes below. We hope that this will be of use to regular players and new players alike. Thank you for your patience!

 

[AIRedzone]

Having made it pretty deep into the Natdex Kickoff tour, I wanted to express how much I've been enjoying the tier and share some teams that I've been using over the past few weeks. I think this tier is too big for me to do a "state of the meta" kind of post as glimmerrdust and Smudge have before (my brain can't handle much more mons at the moment), but I figured I'd talk about some of the Pokemon that star in my teams. Click on the sprites for team pastes.

Cringe Sun - AIRed edition



Very early on in the meta, qsns built a very elegantly destructive team that featured sun abusers and Kingambit. This team soared in popularity in private challenges and the early rounds of the Kickoff tour (it carried my ass to like three wins), so I piggybacked off of it to create my own cringe sun that destroyed opposing cringe sun. The mon I chose to deal with sun is Nihilego, which when paired with speed control from Tornadus, can nuke any non-resist with Power Herb Meteor Beam. While effectively a single-use anti-sun tool, the special attack boost from Meteor Beam (and the near-guaranteed Beast Boost after) allows it to deal massive chunks of damage with Sludge Bomb and dispatch ground types with Grass Knot. In the majority of my games, however, the real star of the show ended up being Kartana. Grassium-Z allows it to cleave through bulky neutral targets and Rillaboom's omnipresence gives Kartana even more ammunition to nuke stuff as seen on turn 2 of this replay from the Kickoff tour. Kartana and Nihilego thus form a powerful core that can destroy each other's checks and snowball to win games rapidly. The rest are standard sun mons that don't even require coverage to blow anything up. Of note is the double sun + double tailwind structure which provides a failsafe against opposing weather or a poor lead matchup.

This team is fairly limited in its opening options: you're almost always forced to lead Flutter Mane into an opposing Fake Out lead. Further, its only real way to gain momentum is by killing shit lol. However, if you're confident enough in your plays this doesn't have to be that big a limitation. Laddering solely with this team (with the exception of one game) I've reached the top 5 with the highest GXE and no losses (with the exception of that one game lol)

Rocketship Semiroom



If you can't tell by now, I really love the Ultra Beasts. This is an attempt at modernizing my favorite Gen 8 DOU team, and the star of the show is Celesteela. Great natural bulk, solid breaking power with Meteor Beam (again), decent coverage, and a snowbally ability make it an underrated threat that matches up incredibly well into many of the biggest players in the meta, especially the Tier 1 mons Flutter Mane and Rillaboom. Celesteela does require very solid speed control and positioning, though, which is why Salamence and Jirachi are great partners for it. While Tailwind doesn't let it outpace max speed offensive threats, it does push it out of reach of base 110s and the common bulky Choice Specs Flutter Mane set. Jirachi makes most of the magic happen with its utility in Follow Me and a very reliable Trick Room. Urshifu-R is a flexible slot - this was originally the absurdly good Urshifu-S, and while its soggy brother is fearsome in its own right, it simply cannot hit some of the things that Dark Bear could. Suggestions are welcome for improvements - Iron Bundle is an option if you're dealing with rain teams, Marshadow can deal with opposing setup while wallbreaking with its Z-move, and more. Steal this team and make it better! I'd love to see what y'all come up with.


At this point I thought I had more teams, but I'm now realizing my builder is filled with all that I've stolen from actual talented teambuilders: qsns, ratpacker, glimmerrdust, and many others. I'm excited to see this tier take off to further heights in Derby. Thanks for reading!

 

[Howfalcons]

Here's a fun team I have been using with a lot of success on ladder. Its an updated and modified version of one of my old gen 7 teams. I think Kommo-o is a very cool mon and rather unexplored at the moment - it can often win games on its own after a Clangorous Soulblaze as long as you are careful about positioning. In the low-to-mid ladder and against any team that doesn't pack a fairy type, a lot of the time you can just immediately set up kommo and start wrecking house. Currently at 5th on the ladder with this squad.

https://pokepast.es/34e16897116219ab

• A slightly faster incin lets you win fake out wars against opposing incin when needed. Otherwise just does incin things. Good mon for positioning, almost always in the lead pair.
• Miracle seed on rillaboom is to change grassy glide from a near-guaranteed 2hko (even with 252 ada) to a guaranteed ohko against flutter, which catches lots of people off guard. The rest is just in special bulk. A second fake out is also very handy, esp paired with terrain control. Grassy terrain also lets kommo heal while stalling for turns, which you sometimes need to do.
• Bulky Mega Meta is super cool, it lives all sorts of stuff you wouldn't expect, including shadow ball from flutter as well as heat wave from scarf chi yu, while still getting all the ohkos it wants and generally dealing lots of damage.
• Suicune is a very cool TW setter, being extremely bulky and also immune to fake out. This suicune set has enough speed investment to outspeed regielecki in TW, enough spa investment to (~90% of the time) ohko landorus. Modest zard-y solar beam and elecki tbolt both just proc berry.
• Kommo is built to outspeed dragapult-and-slower after a boost, and to live a timid flutter mane dazzle at +1 spd
• G-king is a great way to manage opposing weather, especially sun, and also to keep fairies in check. Scares out flutters that have locked into fairy moves. Nice pivot, helps with positioning.

 

[YoBuddy]

Now that I'm out of kickoffs I've decided to post a bunch of teams and talk a little bit about the meta. I most likely won't be signing up for Derby but if any team wants some advice, ideas, etc. I'm open to helping some teams in an unofficial role.



This is a fairly standard looking team using Howl Zamazenta. I was disappointed people started using Coaching Zeraora over Coaching Zamazenta back in the Annihilape meta so I decided to try Howl Zamazenta instead.



I built this sand team a while back when people thought sun was broken. Diancie in sand can be very difficult to KO. I've decided to go Moonblast on this set over Body Press/Weakness Policy because it's better into Marshadow and Urshifu-S was still legal at the time. Tera Rock Rillaboom lets you turn your fire, flying and poison weaknesses into resists and gives you a sand Spdef boost.



One thing I've always hated about gen 8 and beyond is Prankster Tailwind. I started this team with the core of Choice Band Ice Shard Chien-Pao and Shadow Sneak Marshadow to be able to KO Tornadus-I/Whimsicott with priority moves and deny them Tailwind. Rillaboom and Mega Salamence allow you to put on a lot of pressure with physical moves and Volcanion and Diancie round out the team nicely with a semiroom component.



Here it is: Eeveepass. This is probably my favourite team of the generation. Eevee requires a lot of careful positioning and has such a high reward when you pull it off. I've probably had more 6-0s on the ladder with Eevee in the past week than I had in the entirety of SS. Necrozma is the primary boost recipient with Tera Ground Earth Power to hit the likes of Kingambit and opposing Jirachi as hard as possible. While I tend to prefer Breaking Swipe to Hyper Voice on Mega Salamence it enables Salamence to receive boosts from Eevee and sweep. Iron Hands was originally Wild Charge over Heavy Slam but ensuring you can OHKO Flutter is very important. Ladder tends to run 0 bulk Flutter but if you run into a stronger player you can't ensure that their Flutter will drop to Wild Charge.
Calm Mind on Necrozma is important as it gives you an additional wincon and is quite strong against Expanding Force/Trick Room teams. Stored Power Eevee is a cool tech I've been told about to help the Marshadow matchup that I'll try to add in future revisions of this team.
Also don't use Flamigo with Eevee, it is extremely bad.

UR -> Tier 4

While Eeveepass does have some very bad matchups (Marshadow, Urshifu, Chi-Yu + Flutter) it is a legitimate threat and can play around these matchups. You have enough support slots to pivot around and find an opportunity to boost. Eevee's bulk isn't great but it is enough to take some surprisingly strong special attacks.
252 SpA Choice Specs Tera Fairy Flutter Mane Dazzling Gleam vs. 252 HP / 68 SpD Eevee: 260-308 (82.8 - 98%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Here's some Eevee replays:
Tera Ground Necrozma puts in work against a Marshadow team and Eevee passes to Iron Hands for the win
Eevee scores a 6-0 against a Tornadus sand team
Unfortunately most of the replays I saved are from when Eevee didn't do much (since they are more notable) but Eevee is definitely more viable than a bunch of the stuff in tier 4.

UR -> Tier 4

Friendship ended with Indeedee-F, now Eevee is Necrozma's best friend. An essential component for Eeveepass teams that also is probably usable with Meteor Beam + Expanding Force.

Tier 3 -> Tier 2

Marshadow just got moved down but it is still an excellent pokemon. Being able to shut down setup (Eeveepass aside) is very valuable while also filling a similar role to Flutter Mane, trading spread moves for strong priority and extra bulk. A large portion of the meta needs to play very carefully around Marshadow. Flutter Mane often runs bulk that makes it slower than Marshadow, or is vulnerable to Shadow Sneak when not running bulk. The ability to run Marshadium Z, or HP Ice in addition to the standard Life Orb Shadow Sneak set enables Marshadow to threaten essentially the entire tier. With Chien-Pao support Soul Stealing Seven Star Strike threatens OHKOs on even would-be checks like physically defensive Amoonguss and Tapu Fini.

And finally for some general thoughts on the Metagame:



Kingambit has immensely impressed me since the Annihilape ban. Its bulk, powerful Sucker Punch and Defiant make it an excellent pokemon in the meta. One thing I think that could be more explored on it is Pursuit. Sucker Punch threatens a lot of faster frail pokemon to switch out in fear of a KO and Pursuit would force the opponent into a difficult situation, or just take a surprise KO outright.



I spent half of SS spamming pizza emotes in DOUcord only for people to tell me this thing is broken and it shouldn't drop from DUbers (probably fair enough pre-nerf). Now I swear I'm the only person using it in Nat Dex. Close Combat + Heavy Slam with Zamazenta's speed tier is really valuable and still leaves you 2 slots for Coaching/Howl/Snarl/Wide Guard. I'm not going to nominate it for a higher place on the VR because it only really deserves Tier 3, but please use this guy.



The best mega, in my opinion. You get so much out of one slot with Salamence. It's one of two good Intimidate users (I'm not particularly sold on Lando-T), one of the fastest Tailwind setters and has great damage output with Double Edge.



I don't have too much to say about these pokemon but I feel they are pretty unexplored since regular DOU took away a lot of attention from Nat Dex DOU when Home dropped. If you're thinking of something to build for Derby take a close look at these.

 

[sir jelloton]

As my run in the kickoff tour has come to a close its time I share the teams I used throughout the tour as well as my thoughts on the metagame as a whole. Give em a try!
Psyspam

https://pokepast.es/fa1040bd10b1dac3

This team was my personal favorite to pilot. M-garde is very MU dependent, sometimes it gets 1 hyper voice and dies, sometimes it gets behind a sub turn 1 and wins the game, but marsh and kart are such strong cleaners that even if it goes down the team is very playable.

Gholdengo Balance
https://pokepast.es/631df73dba1b2888

This tier has a lot of reliable set up sweeper win conditions and gholdengo is one of them. This thing never dies, especially with Grassy terrain and Intimidate support. Band zygarde is also just really good at spreading damage and can be a back up win con with Tera ground.
O ya btw the torn set outspeeds proto speed flutter and ohko's shifu while keeping bulk.

Dual terrain M-Gross
https://pokepast.es/f91d47ded4ea1c85

It has to work kinda hard in the sun match up but I do love clicking my 169 BP stab move!

Steela Diance semiroom
https://pokepast.es/37ce646afb67ac6a

Steela has to be one of the most threatening mons in team preview its heavily underrated rn. Diance + coaching from zama is very strong and difficult to deal with as well. Teams very cool

Overall I love the metagame. There's such a wide range of viability among team styles and attackers and it makes for a lot of creativity in building. I think it will be a very very long time before the meta starts to get stale and I believe derby will reflect that. Some nominations I'd like to make while I'm here

T1->T2
I think this mons way overvalued. There are a lot of other strong fast attackers in the format that can compete with it even if it is the best option a lot of the time. It's really good but not "why wouldn't you use this mon" good so I would move it from t1

T2->T1
Why wouldn't you use this mon? Does the exact same thing it does in SS except now it also checks the new best attacker in the generation. Best mon in the format imo


T3->T2
Like I mentioned before set up sweepers are very very strong in this tier. Seed sweeper iron hands, plot gholdengo, dd garde, Z-kommo-o, eevee pass, the list just goes on. Marshadow demanding so much respect from all of these mons before and after they set up is just way too valuable, and on top of that even if you don't run into set up it's just a solid attacker with a good speed tier and surprisingly respectable bulk. Definitely one of the best mons in the format.


T4->T3
I think its one of the best set up sweepers in the format with the plot set. It's typing Is already incredibly strong and it can be even worse to deal with after it Tera's. It also has decent sets otherwise in choice and even some merit in AV. Needs to rise.


UR->T4
How did this thing ever drop to unraked. Meteor beam is incredibly threatening and can run away with games easily if you aren't careful. It only really fits on semiroom but it's dangerous on that playstyle. UR for this mon is a disservice

 

[Smudge]

Hello everyone, we've put together a tiering survey to check on the health of the metagame prior to the Doubles Derby starting.

Please fill it out if you have time. Responses will close in a little less than a week, so make sure to do it sooner rather than later!

https://forms.gle/nsJGx2drLehkjVYe6

 

[vesp]

I think the metagame is really fun rn. Frankly I don't think any of these are necessary bans other than Luna, who id like to see a suspect on.
Darkrai is inconsistent and honestly pretty bad. If you have it you need tailwind so you don't just get bulldozed by flutter mane, and also a Sash for opposing tailwind teams. And even then there's a 25% chance that dark void doesn't hit anything, and fini is already a top pokemon. Mist fini is great on Mega Khan teams, since it blocks Intimidate and it's got icy wind support as well. Essentially I think darkrai is too inconsistent to be worth banning. It's very easy to just block the dark void or kill it outright, especially with Paonite comps or trick room or tailwind or sun or fini or blind luck.

 

[Glimmer]

Hello everyone! It has been a darn while since I have done a metagame post so I will put some of my thoughts of the metagame here since a bunch has changed in regards to my opinions.

Firstly my new top 10 with some extra thoughts!

1.
By far and away the best Pokemon in the metagame. No singular mon does as much Rillaboom does, it has offensive pressure with Grassy Glide, defensive utility with Fake Out, U-turn, Taunt, and Grassy Surge, has a unique typing that makes it stand out amongst the roster. Rillaboom also helps Pokémon like Palafin and Kartana. For Pokémon like Palafin and Urshifu-RS, Rillaboom can create dead turns for them to click moves (or switch out and gain Hero forme in Palafin's case) and remove opposing terrain like Psychic Terrain which blocks Aqua Jet and Jet Punch, or even Electric Terrain to remove Iron Bundle's Quark Drive to Scarf Pokémon can outspeed it. Kartana is an off case that straight up benefits from the Grassy Terrain, making it launch Leaf Blades the power of nuclear warheads. Aside from that Rillaboom is also a really good Chien-Pao partner, and this makes them form the deadly Rillaboom Chien-Pao Kartana core, which makes Kartana effortlessly 2 shot resists with the click of a button. Rillaboom is most commonly used as an Assault Vest pivot, but Sitrus Berry with Taunt or Choice Band with Chien-Pao are very much so usable.

2.
Well some nuclear warheads don't need a damage ruin and terrain support yeah? That nuclear warhead is Flutter Mane. This beast of a Pokémon does not even worry about resists like Kartana does, as it has practically none. Flutter Mane can also be surprisingly bulky, being able to live a Mega Metagross Bullet Punch or even a Tera Dark Black Glasses Kingambit Sucker Punch. A lot of the time Flutter Mane forces Tera to beat it due to its coverage and power and speed, and it is pretty splashable of a Pokemon due to its offensive prowess and close to no terrible weaknesses. Although it does struggle here and there versus SemiRoom teams and Prankster Tailwind, its other traits outweigh these weaknesses greatly. Choice Specs, Booster Energy, Focus Sash, and even Pixie Plate sets are excellent. Non-Specs sets can even be used as a secondary Trick Room setter in SemiRoom teams.

3.
Still the king of megas eh? Salamence just gets so much done for a singular slot its insane. Great damage output, great typing, Tailwind and Breaking Swipes support, ability to setup and sweep. Flying resists are also very sparse to the point of Salamence being able to trade in almost any game if it didn't take an Ice Spinner in the face while trying to get into the field. With the uprise of Jirachi and Chien-Pao, Mega Salamence has solidified its place as the king of megas due to its general synergy with the tier and how it abuses the metagame. With Jirachi it can get up a lot of Dragon Dances or setup Tailwind safely, and its Tailwind set synergizes with Chien-Pao teams greatly while having deadly Double-Edges due to Sword of Ruin. Both Tailwind and Dragon Dance sets are extremely splashable. Tailwind can run bulky, all out physical, or even mixed, and Dragon Dance prefers going bulky to get even more opportunities to setup.

4.
Water/Fire with Water Absorb is just so god damn excellent of a STAB combo and defensive combo, bolstered by Volcanion's great defenses and the power of Steam Eruption, Volcanion is by every meaning of the word incredible. With few and sparse weaknesses it has great staying power and it makes those turns count as it has a really strong STAB water move and a spread STAB fire move to click on the opponent. It also has coverage for itself and Tapu Fini. Resisting Fairy while not being weak to Ghost is also huge in regards to its Flutter Mane matchup as the better steels in the format are either weak to Ghost (Jirachi and Mega Metagross) or are neutral to Fairy (Kingambit) or might as well not resist wink wink Kartana. Assault Vest sets excell at checking Flutter Mane, Chi-Yu, etc, meanwhile Safety Goggles helps it against Amoonguss and Leftovers with Substitute under Grassy Terrain is very hard to take down.

5.
I think number 5 is a toss up between Tapu Fini and Jirachi, but I believe Jirachi has more potential to being broken than Fini. Jirachi is a really annoying utility demon. It cannot get much done by itself, but it enables so much by the power of Follow Me, Encore, Trick Room, and Iron Head flinches. The bulk of it is also absurd, one of the only downsides of it is the Psychic-type tacked onto its perfect Steel-type. But of course, Tera completely fixes this issue, as Tera Water and Tera Fairy Jirachi make Jirachi even more absurb and its partner even harder to take down. The other downside of Jirachi is the lack of variance in sets, as it has 1 set with 3 last move options compared to most of the other top 10 Pokémon which have at least two sets (there being another exception which I suppose you might be able to guess or just read down). But this does not hold back Jirachi as much as you would think it does, as Follow Me is such an unique role to fulfill that Jirachi really does not need the variance to be more than excellent.

6.
Tapu Fini my beloved, as you can guess by my avatar is my favourite Pokemon of all time. Both design-wise and usability in Doubles. Tapu Fini is really fun for me as it can go Support, Setup, or even full on Offensive. Tapu Fini has an expansive movepool especially in the supportive department, it has Nature's Madness, Taunt, Heal Pulse, and Icy Wind. These moves make Tapu Fini great at supporting bulky offensive teammates or teammates with setup moves. On the topic of setup moves, Tapu Fini is the best Calm Mind user in the tier. With a great typing, a lot of bulk, natural Spore immunity, and some Intimidate and redirection help, Tapu Fini can easily sweep a team. Its sweeping capabilities are helped a lot by Tera as one of the main things holding Tapu Fini back is its weakness to Rillaboom. Offensive sets with Choice Scarf and Choice Specs are less common and not as good as the other sets, but they are still very much so usable since Fairy and Water are great STABs and Tapu Fini has the bulk to fire off multiple Choice Specs Muddy Waters.

7.
If Jirachi is the utility demon, Incineroar is the utility satan. Incineroar really has every bit of support in its arsenal. Intimidate, Fake Out, Knock Off, Parting Shot, even Taunt in edge cases. But Miss Glimmer! If Incineroar has so much utility and was so good in previous gens, why is it so much lower??? I hear some of you asking. Well my innocent and young child, it is what I like to call "the Flutter Effect" or "Manes of Doom" if you wanna be metal. Incineroar's typing is good it just is not that great into the meta all things considered. Being a Fire-type that does not resist Fairy also severely damages its Flutter Mane matchup, as it needs to run Assault Vest and give up on Parting Shot and hazard immunity to be a check to Flutter Mane. But this is not to say Incineroar is not fantastic, there's a reason it remains in the top 8. It is still the best Intimidate Pokemon by a good margin, Fake Out and pivotting and Knock Off are great utility. Incineroar's sets are pretty one dimensional with really only a few move changes here and there due to teams. But it has quite a few items it can run. On more offensive teams most Incineroar still opt for Safety Goggles or Sitrus Berry. There are off cases where some like to run a Shuca Berry to better rid of Zygarde and Landorus-T. And on more defensively geared teams Incineroar likes to use Heavy-Duty-Boots to avoid chip while pivotting around spamming Parting Shot, or the aforementioned Assault Vest due to Flutter Mane.

8.
Remember me mentioning Kartana and Flutter Mane as nuclear warheads? Considering they are, Mega Metagross is more like a black hole going nom nom on all the neutrals. Steel Roller does absurd damage with the Tough Claws boost but its honestly kinda awkward. You generally need to run both Rillaboom and Tapu Fini for this to function which may be awkward in and on itself, but Steel Roller also makes it lose out on either consistent Steel-type moves or Bullet Punch. Since we talked about the negatives right away here are the many positives. Steel Roller does massive damage to even the bulkiest of resists, 3hkoing Incineroar with a resisted move from a physical attacker with no extra boosts is a thing that only another mon has done, and Urshifu-SS is currently banned. Movesets which don't carry Steel Roller are still very good as Mega Metagross has coverage for practically everything. Stomping Tantrum for Kingambit, Incineroar, Jirachi, Iron Hands, Stakataka, Chi-Yu, and Volcanion, Ice Punch for Mega Salamence, Rillaboom, and Landorus-T, and Thunder Punch for Urshifu-RS, Tapu Fini, Mega Charizard Y, Basculegion, Palafin, and Volcanion.

9.
Yes dear scroller, this is the other one set wonder I was talking about, you can return to the Jirachi post now. Jokes aside, Chien-Pao is a great Pokemon but unlike in singles, Chien-Pao here is mostly used to boost teammates attacks with its Sword of Ruin to boost the strength of already extremely strong Pokémon like Kartana and Urshifu-RS. This is not so overshadow its offensive capabilities, Ice Spinner is a great move that also removes terrain and Chien-Pao's Sucker Punch is a great and strong cleaning tool. Chien-Pao can get paired with most physical attackers aside from Iron Hands who likes to keep its bulk to itself, so the synergy potential of Chien-Pao is a lot and it forms a lot of offense teams around itself because of this.

10.
Had a really rough time deciding between Unseen Fists, Prankster Tailwind, and Spore + Rage Powder for the number 10 spot, but Urshifu-RS won me over. The only real issue with Urshifu is that it doesn't do super great into some of the other super meta defining Pokémon. Rillaboom, Flutter Mane, Tapu Fini, Mega Salamence, Amoonguss, even Tornadus all kinda destroy it. But aside from that, it is literally the perfect physical attacker. It ignores most traditional forms of fending off physical attackers with big buttons, being Intimidate and Protect. Surging Strikes also goes through Focus Sash which is another way of point blank cancelling other strong Pokémon like Mega Salamence. These traits paired with a good STAB combo and the ability to blow past checks with Tera Water or Tera Grass really sells the top 10 spot to Urshifu. It also has decent set variety, although all of its sets primarily click the same buttons they play a whole lot differently. Bulky sets with Assault Vest or Mystic Water can throw out a ton of damage while having a bunch of defensive utility and staying power, Choice Scarf is solid in Rain or with Chien-Pao, Choice Band and Life Orb do tons of damage to pretty much everything.

Aside from the top 10 I also want to talk about some more Pokémon that I found solid/underwhelming.

Setup Zygarde is really really busted with Tera and Jirachi. Tera Water, Steel, or Fairy sets with Substitute have a really easy time setting up and staying behind the Substitute, Tera Normal becomes immune to Spectral Thief and Shadow Sneak and gains STAB for Extreme Speed. Choice Band Zygarde is still decently notable and is great at dealing chunks of damage at a whim, and becomes even more destructive with Tera and Sword of Ruin.

It sits. It clicks Spikes. Life is good. I really do believe Spikes have incredible value in this format and Ting-Lu is the primary setter of them. With a good typing, incredible bulk, and busted ability, it can easily stack up Spikes and open the ways of tons of Balances. I specifically like it paired with Tapu Fini and Jirachi as Jirachi allows Ting-Lu to set up Spikes more comfortably and since against Tapu Fini + Jirachi you have to switch around a lot to prevent getting swept, both Tapu Fini and Spikes get a ton of value.

Zapdos is surprisingly solid from the time I have used it, it can still pull off the bulky Misty/Psychic Seed Tailwind shenanigans, it also uniquely resists Mega Salamence's Double Edge and Mega Metagross' Steel Ground combo. With a practical AV paired with recovery and Tailwind and Tera, Zapdos can stay on the field and get a lot of value. Obviously it is not included in the list as this tiermaker has mons from current and past Viability Rankings.

I love Stakataka. You may say it takes a lot of commitment which it does, but it is absolutely worth it. A Tera Water or Tera Flying Stakataka is so ridiculously hard to take down while doing great damage and boosting its damage output even more. The only downside of Stakataka is the Tera and Trick Room investment which honestly, I am more than willing to give it for how good Tera Stakataka is.

Basically a way less commital version of Stakataka, Diancie does not need Trick Room up, already has decent typing, but Tera Diancie is almost as ridiculous as Tera Stakataka. Diamond Storm + Body Press is only held back by Marshadow who I am not super high on and Urshifu-RS who is annihilated whenever Diancie decides to Tera. It is also a more self-sufficient Trick Room setter than Stakataka so I overall like it more.

Yes I have been praising Trick Room mons but, Ursaluna is not as self sufficient or good outside of Trick Room, while Stakataka and Diancie can function really good in SemiRoom and set Trick Room for themselves. But Ursaluna is still one of the best abusers of Trick Room so I am not gonna put it that low. Im just not super high on Pokémon who only work under Trick Room and have a hard time outside of it while not being able to set it, and Ursaluna is one of these Pokémon.

The other one of these aforementioned Pokémon is Mega Camerupt which honestly has a good case for being UR. It just has the same weaknesses as Ursaluna and does a way worse job at it due to lack of burst and not being able to Tera. Mega Camerupt is also more strictly used in FullRoom which is honestly quite bad in the current state of the meta. If I need a mega for my Trick Room team I am either picking up one of the top 3 or Mega Gardevoir.

 

[mono117]

The other one of these aforementioned Pokémon is Mega Camerupt which honestly has a good case for being UR. It just has the same weaknesses as Ursaluna and does a way worse job at it due to lack of burst and not being able to Tera. Mega Camerupt is also more strictly used in FullRoom which is honestly quite bad in the current state of the meta. If I need a mega for my Trick Room team I am either picking up one of the top 3 or Mega Gardevoir.

I dont agree with you here in all Points.
Yes, its completly restricted to full Trick room teams due to its very low speed. I dont think that Full Trick room is completly bad in the Meta, but with Rillaboom and especially Amonguss and Kingambit it has a few common checks. Expecially Kingambit can cause real pain here. But it was good enough to reach the 1500 Elo with full trick room only and maybe TR will see a lot more better times. :D
Despite it flaws, Mega-Camperupt has a great stab Combo, backed up by 145 SpA + Sheer force. Heat Wave and Earth Power hit together a good amount of the Meta , notably OKHOING Mega-Metagross, Non Terra Heatran, and most variants of Rillaboom, Amonguss and Chi-yu. In the third slot you have a lot of Options like Anicent Power for Mega-Chari Y, Hidden Power Ice for most flyers, Landorus + Mega-Salamence, Fireblast, Eruption, stealth Rock or Nature Power. Expecially Nature Power can help vs the Water Weakness due to the Prevalence of Rillaboom.
Furthermore, it threatens Amonguss massively in TR due its 20 speed tier, what is a big bonus against other Megas. It profitates massively from Sun, which is quite Common too. Switching in this thing can be rly painful.
It differate itself from Ursaluna through beeing not hindered by Intimidate, a neutrally to Grassy Glide and the Ability to work as a strong spread Attacker.
But the damage output of Ursaluna is unmatched.
But you can even use both in 1 Team. I did it with a good amount of sucess.
Yes, it has its flaws, but it can do massive Work in TR teams and wreck Havoc in very few turns. I think tier 4 is well deserved here.


Another Mon i want to highlight for TR is this
Its maybe the most aggressive TR Setter with a super low speed (and under the important 30 Speed benchmark) and can only be played with with together, due to the support through Psychic Terrain, Trick room and Helping hand it can provide. But man, Hatterene hits like a truck with Expanding force and has the typing and movepool to play around most of its checks. Magic bounce makes it immune to spore and taunt, what limits the opportunities for the enemy to shut it down to imprison or KO it fast. It completly counters non sludge bomb amonguss and once the Terrain and TR is up, it can be a big pain to switch into it.
Its lack of bulk and reliance of support can be annoying, but under the right conditions, can end games very fast and brutal and makes it for me the best expanding force user for full TR teams in this tier.
I dont know if Tier 4 would be the right thing for it, but this thing hits like a truck and can set up partially itself. A great spice pick for sure!

 

[ClevelandGamingYT]

Out of interest, is there a reason why Mega Alakazam and Deoxys aren't tiered? They're not as strong in doubles but they still seem like maybe they could be tiered.

 

[Smudge]

Out of interest, is there a reason why Mega Alakazam and Deoxys aren't tiered? They're not as strong in doubles but they still seem like maybe they could be tiered.

A lot of people have tried them, but they're just too frail to really do much of anything, which is why they're not ranked. No real tour results or notable games to speak of, that I'm aware of anyways.

 

[Smudge]

The results of our first survey are here!

We received 32 responses, and I'd like to thank everyone who responded.
​

First off, enjoyment:

Averaging 4.125 on a scale of 5, most people enjoy this tier quite a lot, which is excellent to see! Not much to say here, I'm glad this is the case as we have put a lot of work into it.

Regarding balance, it scored a bit worse at 3.78. For a new format that's only a few months old, not bad. There was a decent correlation between people who voted lower on the scale and people who believed Darkrai is an issue. Which brings us to...

The significant majority of people who had an opinion on Darkrai believed it should be voted on or is straight up broken.

The overwhelming majority of responses wished for us to take action on Dark Void over Darkrai.

The council has indeed taken action, as we also believed it to be an issue, and the result is... a Dark Void ban!

While not being the most reliable, it was restrictive on building & the game state, and was uncompetitive and unhealthy for the metagame.

Dark Void is basically impossible to switch in to reliably, and even sleep checks such as Tapu Fini's Misty Terrain aren't the most reliable as the presence of many terrain setters can make it difficult to maintain terrain control.

	big pichu	smudgerox	eragon11145	qsns	Spurrific	YoBuddy	zee
Dark Void	ban	ban	ban	ban	ban	ban	~

It was by far the most contentious issue on this survey.

None of the following responses were enough to make us take action, but here are the results. For the time being we plan to monitor public opinion and the way the meta shapes up during the Doubles Derby, as the meta needs more time for development.

We may consider suspect tests at a later date, and only after the conclusion of the aforementioned Doubles Derby, but we are not planning any currently.

If you've read this far, thank you! I also have some exciting news that was shared on the Discord, but not here.

Our ladder reached an incredible 38,283 games last month! Thank you again to everyone who's been playing the tier, I never expected this level of engagement.

Here are the usage stats for each ELO bracket:
The most interesting ones are probably Unweighted and 1760.

Unweighted
1500
1630
1760

 

[jack_]

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9nationaldexdoubles-1918478917

solo dozo

 

[Smudge]

We've created the National Dex Doubles Resources Thread!

It contains a roles compendium and speed tiers, by Glimmer and YoBuddy respectively! Thank you very much!

Since we have our own subforum now, we're thinking about splitting it into separate threads and allowing posts, with suggestions/submissions from the community, but for now this will do.

Also, National Dex Premier League IV player signups are live, and it features our tier, be sure to sign up if you want the chance to play! If you've never signed up for a Premier League on Smogon before, each team's manager will nominate in a draft order and then bid on players in a live draft.