Metagame National Dex Metagame Discussion

[HunterNeverHere9]

Hollup why did and drop? They were doing fine. could effectively hazard stack and sd sets were terrifying while huge power made almost unwallable if you played well

 

[Ineros]

Hollup why did and drop? They were doing fine. could effectively hazard stack and sd sets were terrifying while huge power made almost unwallable if you played well

Hello and you bring up some very interesting questions and I will do my best to answer them.

Gliscor has still been amazing. Like you have said, it’s great at spiking into a majority of hazards in the tier, making for Gliscor to help its team force tons of progress, and SD has still been very imposing against balance teams in general and I think it’s still very hard to prep for on those structures. In general, it being the ground slot for a majority of balance and fat teams along with it bringing excellent utility and progress making potential along with invalidating a lot of inconsistent and cheesy balance builds makes it still very good. Thats why it’s A+ still. However, in my opinion the reason Gliscor dropped is that the meta became too offensive for it to make a presence in said matchups; Gliscor has always struggled when in an offense based metagame because not only is it overwhelmed quickly with no way to regain momentum besides the niche u turn, but a meta being more offense based means landorus-T is the main choice of ground for such teams, not Gliscor. This lack of momentum Gliscor has also makes it tough to pivot around Pokemon like Ogerpon-W and weavile in my experience; it’s tough to gain mileage out of it in this mu outside stuffing a toxic lando t. That’s another issue; lando has been running taunt, it’s best 4th moveslot on offense, to great effect, and it completely nullifies any kind of utility Gliscor can pull like setting up hazards or clicking toxic or the rarer option in defog. Overall I think it’s also difficult to get Gliscor in against a majority of offensive threats consistently; it’s not bad into them of course and can check the likes of heatran and raging bolt (considering you have a steel in the back and a Tera fairy) pretty decently in my opinion, but it’s difficult trying to do this consistently when Gliscor is usually very passive in the face of offenses. All in all, while Gliscor is still an amazing mon and is still thriving in my opinion, the wave of offense and ho in this metagame makes it sometimes weaken a balance’s matchup into offense. Not like these are issues that a team can’t fix of course, and this is not to say Gliscor is bad and is in fact an amazing defensive cornerstone, but I think this is why it dropped.

As for Mega Mawile, starting off with positives I think the mon is good at breaking balances with the correct support; being able to absolutely demolish the defensive cores in balance and fat teams along with having sucker punch to rkill anything faster gives it an amazing niche as a powerful but slow breaker that is almost guaranteed progress when positioned properly. Sucker punch and a defensive typing that gives it a toxic immunity, giving it more entry points, and the ability to setup on or force progress Pokemon like weavile, Galarian slowking, and Alomomola gives it its uses. 4a sets are also incredibly hard to switch into, using a wide variety of coverage options to also guarantee progress if you are able to reap the rewards of playing right with positioning and momentum. As for issues, mega mawile is as mentioned before very slow, which can make it feel like deadweight in the offense matchup. Although sucker CAN poke holes in an offense team, this is highly unrealistic and more of a thought on paper than something that actually works in practice. In my opinion it’s also very hard to give mega mawile the proper support it needs while making a coherent structure; as lameflame (I’m crediting him for usage of this term because I first heard it from him I think) usually calls mons like these it’s a fake steel which means it can’t do steel type things like check Tapu lele or a moonblast-locked ival consistently, among some other miscellaneous things like say… weavile, for instance. This is tough because stacking another steel eventually leads to big weaknesses vs Pokémon like Volcarona or stuff that uses earthquake like Garchomp and Landorus, depending on your steel. I feel it’s also hard to give mmaw the correct support it needs; the positives I mentioned earlier were all based on if mmaw was positioned correctly which can’t always happen even against balance builds that are able to play around it well enough (although it’s undeniable that the style still struggles against mmaw at points and that it will break holes) due to mmaw’s low speed and reliance on making correct predictions and aggressive plays which is not the most reliable way of positioning a mon that is still very slow and can have trouble setting up depending on the mon it is in against. I have had many games where Mmaw has just fall flat because it only ever gets one shot at being able to setup. Because of this I feel mmaw is still very reactable in the early game, whether that be spikes or forcing offensive pressure against Pokemon not scared against sucker like Urshifu, Lando, and Gliscor. 4A sets have a similar issue to sd but I also think they have another issue (and this also can apply to sd sets too); mega Medicham is the best mega in the tier! Mmedi has much more advantages to Mmaw; not only is it able to not thud into offense structures completely due to its good speed for a breaker of its caliber, it’s also not able to be reacted to consistently and it doesn’t require as much support to position it as a wincon as Mmaw does. I would also say Mmedi is also better at pressuring fatter teams as 4a mmaw feels much more prediction reliant to actually break against a fatter balance team. In short, mmaw has its traits that make it a fine mon, and if you can build and play with it correctly you will almost surely prune its fruits, but an opposing style of team mmaw should do well against being able to react to it and prevent it from acting as a wincon on top of yet again struggling in a more offensive metagame along with Mmedi being less support reliant and having a much better time at being a wincon against fatter balance stuff makes Mmaw not as consistent of a choice as mega Medicham would.

I hope you understand where I’m getting at, if you have any questions my ps name is Ineros and you can shoot me a pm there

 

[HunterNeverHere9]

Hello and you bring up some very interesting questions and I will do my best to answer them.

Gliscor has still been amazing. Like you have said, it’s great at spiking into a majority of hazards in the tier, making for Gliscor to help its team force tons of progress, and SD has still been very imposing against balance teams in general and I think it’s still very hard to prep for on those structures. In general, it being the ground slot for a majority of balance and fat teams along with it bringing excellent utility and progress making potential along with invalidating a lot of inconsistent and cheesy balance builds makes it still very good. Thats why it’s A+ still. However, in my opinion the reason Gliscor dropped is that the meta became too offensive for it to make a presence in said matchups; Gliscor has always struggled when in an offense based metagame because not only is it overwhelmed quickly with no way to regain momentum besides the niche u turn, but a meta being more offense based means landorus-T is the main choice of ground for such teams, not Gliscor. This lack of momentum Gliscor has also makes it tough to pivot around Pokemon like Ogerpon-W and weavile in my experience; it’s tough to gain mileage out of it in this mu outside stuffing a toxic lando t. That’s another issue; lando has been running taunt, it’s best 4th moveslot on offense, to great effect, and it completely nullifies any kind of utility Gliscor can pull like setting up hazards or clicking toxic or the rarer option in defog. Overall I think it’s also difficult to get Gliscor in against a majority of offensive threats consistently; it’s not bad into them of course and can check the likes of heatran and raging bolt (considering you have a steel in the back and a Tera fairy) pretty decently in my opinion, but it’s difficult trying to do this consistently when Gliscor is usually very passive in the face of offenses. All in all, while Gliscor is still an amazing mon and is still thriving in my opinion, the wave of offense and ho in this metagame makes it sometimes weaken a balance’s matchup into offense. Not like these are issues that a team can’t fix of course, and this is not to say Gliscor is bad and is in fact an amazing defensive cornerstone, but I think this is why it dropped.

As for Mega Mawile, starting off with positives I think the mon is good at breaking balances with the correct support; being able to absolutely demolish the defensive cores in balance and fat teams along with having sucker punch to rkill anything faster gives it an amazing niche as a powerful but slow breaker that is almost guaranteed progress when positioned properly. Sucker punch and a defensive typing that gives it a toxic immunity, giving it more entry points, and the ability to setup on or force progress Pokemon like weavile, Galarian slowking, and Alomomola gives it its uses. 4a sets are also incredibly hard to switch into, using a wide variety of coverage options to also guarantee progress if you are able to reap the rewards of playing right with positioning and momentum. As for issues, mega mawile is as mentioned before very slow, which can make it feel like deadweight in the offense matchup. Although sucker CAN poke holes in an offense team, this is highly unrealistic and more of a thought on paper than something that actually works in practice. In my opinion it’s also very hard to give mega mawile the proper support it needs while making a coherent structure; as lameflame (I’m crediting him for usage of this term because I first heard it from him I think) usually calls mons like these it’s a fake steel which means it can’t do steel type things like check Tapu lele or a moonblast-locked ival consistently, among some other miscellaneous things like say… weavile, for instance. This is tough because stacking another steel eventually leads to big weaknesses vs Pokémon like Volcarona or stuff that uses earthquake like Garchomp and Landorus, depending on your steel. I feel it’s also hard to give mmaw the correct support it needs; the positives I mentioned earlier were all based on if mmaw was positioned correctly which can’t always happen even against balance builds that are able to play around it well enough (although it’s undeniable that the style still struggles against mmaw at points and that it will break holes) due to mmaw’s low speed and reliance on making correct predictions and aggressive plays which is not the most reliable way of positioning a mon that is still very slow and can have trouble setting up depending on the mon it is in against. I have had many games where Mmaw has just fall flat because it only ever gets one shot at being able to setup. Because of this I feel mmaw is still very reactable in the early game, whether that be spikes or forcing offensive pressure against Pokemon not scared against sucker like Urshifu, Lando, and Gliscor. 4A sets have a similar issue to sd but I also think they have another issue (and this also can apply to sd sets too); mega Medicham is the best mega in the tier! Mmedi has much more advantages to Mmaw; not only is it able to not thud into offense structures completely due to its good speed for a breaker of its caliber, it’s also not able to be reacted to consistently and it doesn’t require as much support to position it as a wincon as Mmaw does. I would also say Mmedi is also better at pressuring fatter teams as 4a mmaw feels much more prediction reliant to actually break against a fatter balance team. In short, mmaw has its traits that make it a fine mon, and if you can build and play with it correctly you will almost surely prune its fruits, but an opposing style of team mmaw should do well against being able to react to it and prevent it from acting as a wincon on top of yet again struggling in a more offensive metagame along with Mmedi being less support reliant and having a much better time at being a wincon against fatter balance stuff makes Mmaw not as consistent of a choice as mega Medicham would.

I hope you understand where I’m getting at, if you have any questions my ps name is Ineros and you can shoot me a pm there

Oh damn tysm. Here's what I'm getting at. Since is much more common, less passive and runs taunt, gets shut down incredibly hard. suffers due to its low speed and heavy reliance on sucker. It also gets outclassed by or as a breaker overall and it seems like you have to build a while team surrounding in order for it to work well

 

[HunterNeverHere9]

Me being incredibly stupid but why did and rise? Is it bc of kommonium z for and the rise of for ?

 

[omarsgarciav]

Me being incredibly stupid but why did and rise? Is it bc of kommonium z for and the rise of for ?

Kommo-o's rise is mainly bc of defensive sets and how well they deal with ogerpon and darkrai, z move sets are still niche since tapu lele is still a very very common scarfer, although it does appreciate the rise in popularity of scarf urshifu and they retain some extremely useful defensive utility

Raging bolt has been good since it was released but there's more experimentation with bulkier leftovers variants on offense that can check scarf urshifu extremely well

 

[HunterNeverHere9]

Kommo-o's rise is mainly bc of defensive sets and how well they deal with ogerpon and darkrai, z move sets are still niche since tapu lele is still a very very common scarfer, although it does appreciate the rise in popularity of scarf urshifu and they retain some extremely useful defensive utility

Raging bolt has been good since it was released but there's more experimentation with bulkier leftovers variants on offense that can check scarf urshifu extremely well

Oh ty. I always though that was ok but not the best since it could onny run z draco+cm sets or booster cm. My problem with initially was that it got hard checked by though ig with bulkier sets being used for ig isn't too much of a problem for it

 

[NightEmerald]

why's the hail-snowscape stuff with eicue back

 

[NightEmerald]

I’m sorry for posting a one-liner, my bad.
I thought Hail and Snow interacted with Eiscue like this in the past, which were solved somehow (i can’t remember if hail and snowscape were banned from being on the same pokemon, or if eiscue was recoded to not regain its head when switching between the two). However, in a recent match, an Eiscue used the ‘old’ interaction, which frustrated me to the point that I made the above post. At what point was the hail/snowscape switching reintroduced?
Personally, I’d like to see it banned/nerfed where going from hail to snowscape does not reset ice face, but that may be salt.

 

[HunterNeverHere9]

I’m sorry for posting a one-liner, my bad.
I thought Hail and Snow interacted with Eiscue like this in the past, which were solved somehow (i can’t remember if hail and snowscape were banned from being on the same pokemon, or if eiscue was recoded to not regain its head when switching between the two). However, in a recent match, an Eiscue used the ‘old’ interaction, which frustrated me to the point that I made the above post. At what point was the hail/snowscape switching reintroduced?
Personally, I’d like to see it banned/nerfed where going from hail to snowscape does not reset ice face, but that may be salt.

Firstly idt eiscue is even used outside of cheese which is heavily discouraged and secondly iirc I don't think the eiscue recode you talked about actually happened at all. IF it did happen then prob around dlc 2

 

[NightEmerald]

Firstly idt eiscue is even used outside of cheese which is heavily discouraged and secondly iirc I don't think the eiscue recode you talked about actually happened at all. IF it did happen then prob around dlc 2

it was featured in a team bazaar stall team that i had the misfortune of fighting,
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/national-dex-bazaar.3710928/post-10077117
So I suppose it might fall under cheese? Maybe I am wrong about the recode, but I’m almost certain it occurred pre-dlc1, as a result of this pokeaim video causing ladder to flood with them.

 

[HunterNeverHere9]

it was featured in a team bazaar stall team that i had the misfortune of fighting,
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/national-dex-bazaar.3710928/post-10077117
So I suppose it might fall under cheese? Maybe I am wrong about the recode, but I’m almost certain it occurred pre-dlc1, as a result of this pokeaim video causing ladder to flood with them.

Imo cheese is on the same level of cheese as ig hypnosis spam and overall why did they even recode it?

 

[Chilli Dewd]

Ok, It has been a while since I sitred here in the National Dex desk to write something, but here I am once again talking about a potential problem for the metagame. He sees you when you're sleeping, he knows when you're awake, and whether you're bad or good, he is giving you nightmares. Of course, it is non other than Darkrai...

Now for the most part, Darkrai has been concidered a fairly balanced mon in ND OU despite its legendary status. It had remain a rather solid mon in Balanced teams, with a few solid sets. One of it's go to sets is a NP + 3 attack set, which is a pretty customizable set between its coverage options, tera types, and even its Z crystal options. Other options include a Choice Specs set, which sacrifices the ability to switch moves for inmediate power and an additional form of coverage. It is a similar deal with Choice Scarf, which can be effect for dealing with very fast mons like Iron Valiant and other scarfer like Tapu Lele, Landorus-T and Kartana, making it an effective revenge killer. All of these sets, while pretty strong, are not particularly gamebreaking, but there is a set however that seems to be pushing the boundaries a bit, and that is the Z Hypnosis set. With Z hypnosis, it gets a +1 speed on top of the sleeping chance, once the sleep connects, Darkrai can very easily grab a Nasty Plot, which would leave the opponent facing a +1 speed and +2 spatk Darkrai at best. At worse it can potentially grab a 3rd one and run with the whole game. Even if it missed the hypnosis, it is still getting a +1 speed with the ability to switch moves, but that is as reliable as praying your opponent misses Focus Blast. This set imo is a pretty unhealthy one, but outside of this set, I don't think Darkrai itself is a toxic presence, do this does make other sets quite powerful, since they wouldn't be expecting them much, so I would like to propose a voting. During the next suspect votes, I would like for Darkrai to be there, but also sleep as well. Now it is true that by enlarge, sleep isn't that abused in here, outside of Darkrai itself, but there should be something done about this set, and with sleep itself not being commonly used, then it opens up a revenue to allow Darkrai in the tier without feeling nightmarish to handle. I would also like to know people's opinions about this topic, shpuld Darkrai go, sleep, neither of them, both? I would like to know.

 

[HunterNeverHere9]

Ok, It has been a while since I sitred here in the National Dex desk to write something, but here I am once again talking about a potential problem for the metagame. He sees you when you're sleeping, he knows when you're awake, and whether you're bad or good, he is giving you nightmares. Of course, it is non other than Darkrai...
View attachment 650958

Now for the most part, Darkrai has been concidered a fairly balanced mon in ND OU despite its legendary status. It had remain a rather solid mon in Balanced teams, with a few solid sets. One of it's go to sets is a NP + 3 attack set, which is a pretty customizable set between its coverage options, tera types, and even its Z crystal options. Other options include a Choice Specs set, which sacrifices the ability to switch moves for inmediate power and an additional form of coverage. It is a similar deal with Choice Scarf, which can be effect for dealing with very fast mons like Iron Valiant and other scarfer like Tapu Lele, Landorus-T and Kartana, making it an effective revenge killer. All of these sets, while pretty strong, are not particularly gamebreaking, but there is a set however that seems to be pushing the boundaries a bit, and that is the Z Hypnosis set. With Z hypnosis, it gets a +1 speed on top of the sleeping chance, once the sleep connects, Darkrai can very easily grab a Nasty Plot, which would leave the opponent facing a +1 speed and +2 spatk Darkrai at best. At worse it can potentially grab a 3rd one and run with the whole game. Even if it missed the hypnosis, it is still getting a +1 speed with the ability to switch moves, but that is as reliable as praying your opponent misses Focus Blast. This set imo is a pretty unhealthy one, but outside of this set, I don't think Darkrai itself is a toxic presence, do this does make other sets quite powerful, since they wouldn't be expecting them much, so I would like to propose a voting. During the next suspect votes, I would like for Darkrai to be there, but also sleep as well. Now it is true that by enlarge, sleep isn't that abused in here, outside of Darkrai itself, but there should be something done about this set, and with sleep itself not being commonly used, then it opens up a revenue to allow Darkrai in the tier without feeling nightmarish to handle. I would also like to know people's opinions about this topic, shpuld Darkrai go, sleep, neither of them, both? I would like to know.

sleep clause; am I a joke to you?

But fr though, this set is absolute cheese. Imo sleep should go since it's annoying like fuck and like you said is pretty balanced

 

[Ineros]

Hello, I am here to talk about 3 Pokemon in this metagame that I think are interesting and worth discussing, those 3 being



This Pokemon has generally flown under some people’s radar and I don’t think the community as a whole quite understands how it works and functions. I think Primarina is good because it offers quite a lot of defensive utility to offense that is lacking atm; Being able to check Urshifu-R, probably the best speed control option in the tier that annoys offense extremely, and being able to do so effectively along with using it as setup if Primarina is using leftovers is a very good trait to have. Not only that, I think Primarina also has a very uncommon trait among offensive Pokemon ever since the Zamazenta ban, and that is a dark resist. With some bulk invest, Primarina is able to act as surprisingly one of the more effective dark resists in the tier, checking the likes of Hisuian Samurott, Weavile, and Darkrai with some hp investment and leftovers. Being a dark resist for offense isn’t a very high bar for competition since there are none besides Tera fairy iron crown, but that just defines its niche even further. Besides this, there are only a few other Dark resists for BO and Offense teams; Clefable, which only fits on more specific Bo structures and struggles to find opportunity to be a threat to the majority of the tier on the same level as prim, Mega Tyranitar, which is not found on more aggressive offense teams but can fit on BO and is admittedly a very good dark resist, and… what else? Iron Hands? Tapu Fini?! Not only does Primarina have one of the best traits in the tier for offense and Bulky Offense teams alike that the tier most certainly is lacking, it is also a potent wincon against a majority of more balanced or Bulky offense teams in combination with Tera. Primarina is able to act as a potent breaker against a lot of BO teams that have Heatran, Garganacl, and LandoT as defensive pieces, and imo Garganacl BO is one of the best styles to take advantage of atm, with LandoTran still being a tried and true BO defensive core and being very consistent and strangely hard to exploit with the right teammates supporting such teams. Sure, those teams may use something like Raging Bolt or Ogerpon-W as a water resist, but raging bolt does not want to switch into prim consistently and Ogerpon-W, while a fair argument, still is worn down very easily by prim and the combination of hazards given the opportunity; Prim puts many of these Bo teams in very uncomfortable positions, and a lot of these teams using threats like Darkrai, Heatran, and Urshifu-R makes Prim’s matchup into BO and even some balances very nice. Not only this, as mentioned before Prim is very helped out by Tera; it uses Tera Steel very well, gaining opportunities to break against Corviknight and Slowking-G balances on top of using Pokemon like Tapu Lele, one of the tier’s best speed control and breaking options, and Iron Valiant locked into Moonblast as setup fodder, staying consistent in these matchups through the help of some bulk and leftovers. I’ve been talking about Leftovers mainly, but Custap Berry is also a good option on very aggressive offenses or ho teams to also aid in prim’s other role as a trading tool. Prim is very slow, sure, but it’s trading ability against a lot of Lando Offenses and Mlop teams is very good. I would also like to mention Primarina’s great combination with spikes, wearing down checks such as Ogerpon-W and Ferrothorn so Primarina can break easier; a core I like to use is Primarina + Spikes Meowscarada or Ferrothorn, which also provide knock off and provide other miscellaneous utility such as pivoting with meows and leech seed healing + chip with ferro. Psychic noise is also very annoying, due to Primarina preying on a ton of bulkier Pokemon that rely on recovery such as Toxapex (pnoise’s main target), Alomomola, and Ferrothorn (with Tera steel) to do jobs efficiently (and also is very good vs. fatter or stall teams). CM Dkiss is also an interesting option, utilizing Prim’s good defensive traits and making it a potent wincon, but I haven’t tested the set out myself. Encore is also a very good option with the aforementioned spikes, locking the best defogger, Corviknight, into roosts and generally threatening those teams from there while also being a very good option against Alomomola and Tera Water Garganacl. Also, do NOT use liquid voice on this mon; torrent allows Primarina to trade very effectively against offenses and lvoice will only hinder this, not to mention you lose a lot of the offensive pressure something like hydro pump or even scald would bring.


No I did not type in the sprites incorrectly. This Pokemon has been seeing more usage lately and has even achieved a good C+ ranking on the vr after being previously unranked, showing the mon has potential to do even more stuff in the future (maybe during summer ssnl or NdPl? Not sure). But what does it do to separate itself from a variety of other grass types in the tier along with its masked forms? Well, for starters, let’s talk about its item slot, something that differentiates it from its other forms greatly. I have found that the other Ogerpons are prone to hazard chip, which can be an issue for them if they are the desired wincon in a game. Not to say this hinders their viability THAT much, but it is still nice that Tealpon doesn’t have this issue because it is able to run heavy duty boots, which makes it a better wincon against teams that use hazard chip (mainly through spikes) and speed control as a way to deal with Waterpon. I don’t think Meadow Plate is the best option for an item on Tealpon because I think you get more mileage out of heavy duty boots, but it is also an option to break through Gliscor and Toxapex easier, not to mention those 2 are also the backbone of many balance teams so that is still a nice option to have against those teams. Not only is it’s item slot freed, Tealpon also has one of the best traits in the game that no other Pokemon really has; the ability to gain a permanent speed boost after tera. Not only is this a trait no other Pokemon has, and that Ogerpon becomes nigh impossible to revenge kill with the tier’s best speed control options, it is also very good to have in a very offensive metagame. I think these last couple months during Ladder Tour and WC have mainly shown the meta has been leading towards offensive styles because they overwhelm just so much of the tier. These offenses have mainly been defined by Landorus-T, Iron Crown / Gking, and some kind of speed control as their base. Not only does Ogerpon prey on these types of cores due to good coverage in knock off, it also takes full advantage of Landorus-T being the main physdef piece on offensive teams due to defiant instead raising its attack instead of lowering it, making for offense to pivot around and threaten tealpon than something like waterpon (due to not gaining a speed boost). Checks to Grass types on offense, such as Volcarona, Raging Bolt, and Dragonite all have issues that make them not stonewalls into Ogerpon. Volcarona only needs slight chip for +2 Ogerpon to ko with knock off. Dragonite, due to not running recovery on offensive teams, does not like a knock off from ogerpon and hinders dnite’s ability to setup more consistently if it is forced out by, say, ice spinner scarf urshifu or scarf Tapu lele. Raging Bolt, which commonly runs leftovers on offense, doesn’t like being knocked off either and only comes in a few amount of times after being lefties-less. The reason why other grasses (besides the other ogerpons we already discussed what makes tealpon different from them) like Kartana and Rillaboom don’t do the same thing as effectively is for 2 reasons. 1. Ogerpon is able to gain a speed boost, making it far more effective against offenses’s more fast paced nature (the weak priority from Rillaboom and the worse wincon potential of Scarf Kartana not withstanding) and 2. Kartana and Rillaboom are more easily pivoted around by landorus-T, something Ogerpon does not struggle with. All in all, I think Ogerpon is an actually viable Pokemon that is good on offense and bulky offense teams as secondary speed control that can help teams against the swarm of lando offenses in the metagame. Sure, it has a decent amount of rough matchups, but with good hazard management and the good ability to click knock off said matchups are still playable. I can see this thing definitely rising to B- in the future and, if it gets optimized even further, B.


Mega Scizor has been in a rough viability cycle in Natdex these last couple months and is at one of its lowest points at B+. There, we went through the obvious and the statement I have said many times. I do think, however, it is time for Mega Scizor to once more shine in the spotlight in the following tours. Mega Scizor is not a more fringe mon or something that was more recently discovered unlike the last 2, but I mention it in this post because I have tested the mon out and it has seen good success on certain BO and Offense structures alike. Mega Scizor rewards teams that build for its way as a wincon. What I mean by this is that checks to Mega Scizor, such as raging Bolt, gouging fire, Rocky helmet landorus-T, etc are all able to be worn down quite easily throughout the course of a game via hazards or just good progress making teammates in general. This is important because once these checks are worn down they suddenly aren’t checks anymore, paving the way for a dangerous wincon in msciz to be opened up against a variety of gking, utility Gliscor, and Alomomola teams (not all of those 3 on the same team that is a very bad core and you shouldn’t use it, just certain Pokemon that are commonly found on the backbones of certain teams). Bulky Sd knock off sets are very good into balance teams in combination with hazards, as well as knock off msciz being a great way to cripple many checks in gouging fire, Volcarona, Dondozo, and Toxapex. Knock Off also has the added benefit of being able to ohko gking at +2, which means it can’t hinder msciz with twave unless it uses Tera. 2A offensive sets are also good wincons against a variety of teams once Toxapex has been lured or ko’d with teammates like Tapu Koko, dark z Darkrai, or raging bolt. CC is probably the best option on these sets so then things like Heatran, Raging Bolt, and Ferrothorn don’t annoy msciz as much, but with a defined defensive core or highly aggressive teammates Dual Wingbeat is another good option to ohko an offensive check in Waterpon and deal sizable amounts of damage to Toxapex, but no cc does truly hurt it and it doesn’t do very well against Corviknight either, regulating Dwb as an option to more aggressive offense teams. Oh and how could I have forgotten its great defensive utility? It’s an amazing stopgap against Pokemon like Tapu Lele, Dragonite, and Weavile and is very consistent at being so due to its great bulk and roost. It also has some other miscellaneous defensive utility in checking kyurem for balance / standard Bo teams (this will be very important when Kyurem starts to be innovated in the upcoming tours!) and absorbing knock off from Rillaboom, Ferrothorn, and weavile. HO teams also appreciate its ability as a steel type (helping them not auto lose to Tapu lele among other things but Tapu lele is the big one) while also being a good breaker and cleaner against the majority of this BO / Offensive metagame. I suspect Mega Scizor being a good defensive and offensive piece in the future, and I’m sure I only scratched the surface on what it’s role in the metagame will be like once it is developed further with different teamcomps for it being innovated.


Sets for all 3:

Hide

Primarina @ Leftovers / Custap Berry
Ability: Torrent
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 232 HP / 136 SpA / 140 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Psychic Noise / Substitute
- Hydro Pump / Scald
- Moonblast

EVs live a Solar Beam from Mega Charizard Y and outspeed Heatran.


Ogerpon (F) @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Defiant
Tera Type: Grass
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Ivy Cudgel
- Superpower
- Knock Off


Scizor-Mega @ Scizorite
Ability: Technician
Tera Type: Bug
EVs: 252 HP / 92 Atk / 28 SpD / 136 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Bullet Punch
- Close Combat
- Swords Dance
- Roost

EVs creep Raging Bolt (and anything trying to outspeed it) while also taking focus blasts from Tapu lele easier.

Scizor-Mega @ Scizorite
Ability: Technician
Tera Type: Bug
EVs: 248 HP / 112 Def / 116 SpD / 28 Spe
Impish Nature
- Swords Dance
- Knock Off
- Bullet Punch
- Roost

Scizor-Mega @ Scizorite
Ability: Technician
Tera Type: Bug
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Bullet Punch
- Swords Dance
- Close Combat
- Dual Wingbeat

teams I tested with for all 3:

Hide

https://pokepast.es/6c0a839538001269
https://pokepast.es/969af6e39ee02e67
https://pokepast.es/008bc58cd49b7952
https://pokepast.es/1355864b3a296454
https://pokepast.es/ee4a055d78629fbb

Alright I’m done rambling, have a good day!

 

[Epicgamergod69]

Hello, I am here to talk about 3 Pokemon in this metagame that I think are interesting and worth discussing, those 3 being



This Pokemon has generally flown under some people’s radar and I don’t think the community as a whole quite understands how it works and functions. I think Primarina is good because it offers quite a lot of defensive utility to offense that is lacking atm; Being able to check Urshifu-R, probably the best speed control option in the tier that annoys offense extremely, and being able to do so effectively along with using it as setup if Primarina is using leftovers is a very good trait to have. Not only that, I think Primarina also has a very uncommon trait among offensive Pokemon ever since the Zamazenta ban, and that is a dark resist. With some bulk invest, Primarina is able to act as surprisingly one of the more effective dark resists in the tier, checking the likes of Hisuian Samurott, Weavile, and Darkrai with some hp investment and leftovers. Being a dark resist for offense isn’t a very high bar for competition since there are none besides Tera fairy iron crown, but that just defines its niche even further. Besides this, there are only a few other Dark resists for BO and Offense teams; Clefable, which only fits on more specific Bo structures and struggles to find opportunity to be a threat to the majority of the tier on the same level as prim, Mega Tyranitar, which is not found on more aggressive offense teams but can fit on BO and is admittedly a very good dark resist, and… what else? Iron Hands? Tapu Fini?! Not only does Primarina have one of the best traits in the tier for offense and Bulky Offense teams alike that the tier most certainly is lacking, it is also a potent wincon against a majority of more balanced or Bulky offense teams in combination with Tera. Primarina is able to act as a potent breaker against a lot of BO teams that have Heatran, Garganacl, and LandoT as defensive pieces, and imo Garganacl BO is one of the best styles to take advantage of atm, with LandoTran still being a tried and true BO defensive core and being very consistent and strangely hard to exploit with the right teammates supporting such teams. Sure, those teams may use something like Raging Bolt or Ogerpon-W as a water resist, but raging bolt does not want to switch into prim consistently and Ogerpon-W, while a fair argument, still is worn down very easily by prim and the combination of hazards given the opportunity; Prim puts many of these Bo teams in very uncomfortable positions, and a lot of these teams using threats like Darkrai, Heatran, and Urshifu-R makes Prim’s matchup into BO and even some balances very nice. Not only this, as mentioned before Prim is very helped out by Tera; it uses Tera Steel very well, gaining opportunities to break against Corviknight and Slowking-G balances on top of using Pokemon like Tapu Lele, one of the tier’s best speed control and breaking options, and Iron Valiant locked into Moonblast as setup fodder, staying consistent in these matchups through the help of some bulk and leftovers. I’ve been talking about Leftovers mainly, but Custap Berry is also a good option on very aggressive offenses or ho teams to also aid in prim’s other role as a trading tool. Prim is very slow, sure, but it’s trading ability against a lot of Lando Offenses and Mlop teams is very good. I would also like to mention Primarina’s great combination with spikes, wearing down checks such as Ogerpon-W and Ferrothorn so Primarina can break easier; a core I like to use is Primarina + Spikes Meowscarada or Ferrothorn, which also provide knock off and provide other miscellaneous utility such as pivoting with meows and leech seed healing + chip with ferro. Psychic noise is also very annoying, due to Primarina preying on a ton of bulkier Pokemon that rely on recovery such as Toxapex (pnoise’s main target), Alomomola, and Ferrothorn (with Tera steel) to do jobs efficiently (and also is very good vs. fatter or stall teams). CM Dkiss is also an interesting option, utilizing Prim’s good defensive traits and making it a potent wincon, but I haven’t tested the set out myself. Encore is also a very good option with the aforementioned spikes, locking the best defogger, Corviknight, into roosts and generally threatening those teams from there while also being a very good option against Alomomola and Tera Water Garganacl. Also, do NOT use liquid voice on this mon; torrent allows Primarina to trade very effectively against offenses and lvoice will only hinder this, not to mention you lose a lot of the offensive pressure something like hydro pump or even scald would bring.


No I did not type in the sprites incorrectly. This Pokemon has been seeing more usage lately and has even achieved a good C+ ranking on the vr after being previously unranked, showing the mon has potential to do even more stuff in the future (maybe during summer ssnl or NdPl? Not sure). But what does it do to separate itself from a variety of other grass types in the tier along with its masked forms? Well, for starters, let’s talk about its item slot, something that differentiates it from its other forms greatly. I have found that the other Ogerpons are prone to hazard chip, which can be an issue for them if they are the desired wincon in a game. Not to say this hinders their viability THAT much, but it is still nice that Tealpon doesn’t have this issue because it is able to run heavy duty boots, which makes it a better wincon against teams that use hazard chip (mainly through spikes) and speed control as a way to deal with Waterpon. I don’t think Meadow Plate is the best option for an item on Tealpon because I think you get more mileage out of heavy duty boots, but it is also an option to break through Gliscor and Toxapex easier, not to mention those 2 are also the backbone of many balance teams so that is still a nice option to have against those teams. Not only is it’s item slot freed, Tealpon also has one of the best traits in the game that no other Pokemon really has; the ability to gain a permanent speed boost after tera. Not only is this a trait no other Pokemon has, and that Ogerpon becomes nigh impossible to revenge kill with the tier’s best speed control options, it is also very good to have in a very offensive metagame. I think these last couple months during Ladder Tour and WC have mainly shown the meta has been leading towards offensive styles because they overwhelm just so much of the tier. These offenses have mainly been defined by Landorus-T, Iron Crown / Gking, and some kind of speed control as their base. Not only does Ogerpon prey on these types of cores due to good coverage in knock off, it also takes full advantage of Landorus-T being the main physdef piece on offensive teams due to defiant instead raising its attack instead of lowering it, making for offense to pivot around and threaten tealpon than something like waterpon (due to not gaining a speed boost). Checks to Grass types on offense, such as Volcarona, Raging Bolt, and Dragonite all have issues that make them not stonewalls into Ogerpon. Volcarona only needs slight chip for +2 Ogerpon to ko with knock off. Dragonite, due to not running recovery on offensive teams, does not like a knock off from ogerpon and hinders dnite’s ability to setup more consistently if it is forced out by, say, ice spinner scarf urshifu or scarf Tapu lele. Raging Bolt, which commonly runs leftovers on offense, doesn’t like being knocked off either and only comes in a few amount of times after being lefties-less. The reason why other grasses (besides the other ogerpons we already discussed what makes tealpon different from them) like Kartana and Rillaboom don’t do the same thing as effectively is for 2 reasons. 1. Ogerpon is able to gain a speed boost, making it far more effective against offenses’s more fast paced nature (the weak priority from Rillaboom and the worse wincon potential of Scarf Kartana not withstanding) and 2. Kartana and Rillaboom are more easily pivoted around by landorus-T, something Ogerpon does not struggle with. All in all, I think Ogerpon is an actually viable Pokemon that is good on offense and bulky offense teams as secondary speed control that can help teams against the swarm of lando offenses in the metagame. Sure, it has a decent amount of rough matchups, but with good hazard management and the good ability to click knock off said matchups are still playable. I can see this thing definitely rising to B- in the future and, if it gets optimized even further, B.


Mega Scizor has been in a rough viability cycle in Natdex these last couple months and is at one of its lowest points at B+. There, we went through the obvious and the statement I have said many times. I do think, however, it is time for Mega Scizor to once more shine in the spotlight in the following tours. Mega Scizor is not a more fringe mon or something that was more recently discovered unlike the last 2, but I mention it in this post because I have tested the mon out and it has seen good success on certain BO and Offense structures alike. Mega Scizor rewards teams that build for its way as a wincon. What I mean by this is that checks to Mega Scizor, such as raging Bolt, gouging fire, Rocky helmet landorus-T, etc are all able to be worn down quite easily throughout the course of a game via hazards or just good progress making teammates in general. This is important because once these checks are worn down they suddenly aren’t checks anymore, paving the way for a dangerous wincon in msciz to be opened up against a variety of gking, utility Gliscor, and Alomomola teams (not all of those 3 on the same team that is a very bad core and you shouldn’t use it, just certain Pokemon that are commonly found on the backbones of certain teams). Bulky Sd knock off sets are very good into balance teams in combination with hazards, as well as knock off msciz being a great way to cripple many checks in gouging fire, Volcarona, Dondozo, and Toxapex. Knock Off also has the added benefit of being able to ohko gking at +2, which means it can’t hinder msciz with twave unless it uses Tera. 2A offensive sets are also good wincons against a variety of teams once Toxapex has been lured or ko’d with teammates like Tapu Koko, dark z Darkrai, or raging bolt. CC is probably the best option on these sets so then things like Heatran, Raging Bolt, and Ferrothorn don’t annoy msciz as much, but with a defined defensive core or highly aggressive teammates Dual Wingbeat is another good option to ohko an offensive check in Waterpon and deal sizable amounts of damage to Toxapex, but no cc does truly hurt it and it doesn’t do very well against Corviknight either, regulating Dwb as an option to more aggressive offense teams. Oh and how could I have forgotten its great defensive utility? It’s an amazing stopgap against Pokemon like Tapu Lele, Dragonite, and Weavile and is very consistent at being so due to its great bulk and roost. It also has some other miscellaneous defensive utility in checking kyurem for balance / standard Bo teams (this will be very important when Kyurem starts to be innovated in the upcoming tours!) and absorbing knock off from Rillaboom, Ferrothorn, and weavile. HO teams also appreciate its ability as a steel type (helping them not auto lose to Tapu lele among other things but Tapu lele is the big one) while also being a good breaker and cleaner against the majority of this BO / Offensive metagame. I suspect Mega Scizor being a good defensive and offensive piece in the future, and I’m sure I only scratched the surface on what it’s role in the metagame will be like once it is developed further with different teamcomps for it being innovated.


Sets for all 3:

Hide

Primarina @ Leftovers / Custap Berry
Ability: Torrent
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 232 HP / 136 SpA / 140 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Psychic Noise / Substitute
- Hydro Pump / Scald
- Moonblast

EVs live a Solar Beam from Mega Charizard Y and outspeed Heatran.


Ogerpon (F) @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Defiant
Tera Type: Grass
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Ivy Cudgel
- Superpower
- Knock Off


Scizor-Mega @ Scizorite
Ability: Technician
Tera Type: Bug
EVs: 252 HP / 92 Atk / 28 SpD / 136 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Bullet Punch
- Close Combat
- Swords Dance
- Roost

EVs creep Raging Bolt (and anything trying to outspeed it) while also taking focus blasts from Tapu lele easier.

Scizor-Mega @ Scizorite
Ability: Technician
Tera Type: Bug
EVs: 248 HP / 112 Def / 116 SpD / 28 Spe
Impish Nature
- Swords Dance
- Knock Off
- Bullet Punch
- Roost

Scizor-Mega @ Scizorite
Ability: Technician
Tera Type: Bug
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Bullet Punch
- Swords Dance
- Close Combat
- Dual Wingbeat

teams I tested with for all 3:

Hide

https://pokepast.es/6c0a839538001269
https://pokepast.es/969af6e39ee02e67
https://pokepast.es/008bc58cd49b7952
https://pokepast.es/1355864b3a296454
https://pokepast.es/ee4a055d78629fbb

Alright I’m done rambling, have a good day!

I ain't reading allat
Cool teams tho
Primarina is cool

 

[boppydop!]

Hello, I am here to talk about 3 Pokemon in this metagame that I think are interesting and worth discussing, those 3 being



This Pokemon has generally flown under some people’s radar and I don’t think the community as a whole quite understands how it works and functions. I think Primarina is good because it offers quite a lot of defensive utility to offense that is lacking atm; Being able to check Urshifu-R, probably the best speed control option in the tier that annoys offense extremely, and being able to do so effectively along with using it as setup if Primarina is using leftovers is a very good trait to have. Not only that, I think Primarina also has a very uncommon trait among offensive Pokemon ever since the Zamazenta ban, and that is a dark resist. With some bulk invest, Primarina is able to act as surprisingly one of the more effective dark resists in the tier, checking the likes of Hisuian Samurott, Weavile, and Darkrai with some hp investment and leftovers. Being a dark resist for offense isn’t a very high bar for competition since there are none besides Tera fairy iron crown, but that just defines its niche even further. Besides this, there are only a few other Dark resists for BO and Offense teams; Clefable, which only fits on more specific Bo structures and struggles to find opportunity to be a threat to the majority of the tier on the same level as prim, Mega Tyranitar, which is not found on more aggressive offense teams but can fit on BO and is admittedly a very good dark resist, and… what else? Iron Hands? Tapu Fini?! Not only does Primarina have one of the best traits in the tier for offense and Bulky Offense teams alike that the tier most certainly is lacking, it is also a potent wincon against a majority of more balanced or Bulky offense teams in combination with Tera. Primarina is able to act as a potent breaker against a lot of BO teams that have Heatran, Garganacl, and LandoT as defensive pieces, and imo Garganacl BO is one of the best styles to take advantage of atm, with LandoTran still being a tried and true BO defensive core and being very consistent and strangely hard to exploit with the right teammates supporting such teams. Sure, those teams may use something like Raging Bolt or Ogerpon-W as a water resist, but raging bolt does not want to switch into prim consistently and Ogerpon-W, while a fair argument, still is worn down very easily by prim and the combination of hazards given the opportunity; Prim puts many of these Bo teams in very uncomfortable positions, and a lot of these teams using threats like Darkrai, Heatran, and Urshifu-R makes Prim’s matchup into BO and even some balances very nice. Not only this, as mentioned before Prim is very helped out by Tera; it uses Tera Steel very well, gaining opportunities to break against Corviknight and Slowking-G balances on top of using Pokemon like Tapu Lele, one of the tier’s best speed control and breaking options, and Iron Valiant locked into Moonblast as setup fodder, staying consistent in these matchups through the help of some bulk and leftovers. I’ve been talking about Leftovers mainly, but Custap Berry is also a good option on very aggressive offenses or ho teams to also aid in prim’s other role as a trading tool. Prim is very slow, sure, but it’s trading ability against a lot of Lando Offenses and Mlop teams is very good. I would also like to mention Primarina’s great combination with spikes, wearing down checks such as Ogerpon-W and Ferrothorn so Primarina can break easier; a core I like to use is Primarina + Spikes Meowscarada or Ferrothorn, which also provide knock off and provide other miscellaneous utility such as pivoting with meows and leech seed healing + chip with ferro. Psychic noise is also very annoying, due to Primarina preying on a ton of bulkier Pokemon that rely on recovery such as Toxapex (pnoise’s main target), Alomomola, and Ferrothorn (with Tera steel) to do jobs efficiently (and also is very good vs. fatter or stall teams). CM Dkiss is also an interesting option, utilizing Prim’s good defensive traits and making it a potent wincon, but I haven’t tested the set out myself. Encore is also a very good option with the aforementioned spikes, locking the best defogger, Corviknight, into roosts and generally threatening those teams from there while also being a very good option against Alomomola and Tera Water Garganacl. Also, do NOT use liquid voice on this mon; torrent allows Primarina to trade very effectively against offenses and lvoice will only hinder this, not to mention you lose a lot of the offensive pressure something like hydro pump or even scald would bring.


No I did not type in the sprites incorrectly. This Pokemon has been seeing more usage lately and has even achieved a good C+ ranking on the vr after being previously unranked, showing the mon has potential to do even more stuff in the future (maybe during summer ssnl or NdPl? Not sure). But what does it do to separate itself from a variety of other grass types in the tier along with its masked forms? Well, for starters, let’s talk about its item slot, something that differentiates it from its other forms greatly. I have found that the other Ogerpons are prone to hazard chip, which can be an issue for them if they are the desired wincon in a game. Not to say this hinders their viability THAT much, but it is still nice that Tealpon doesn’t have this issue because it is able to run heavy duty boots, which makes it a better wincon against teams that use hazard chip (mainly through spikes) and speed control as a way to deal with Waterpon. I don’t think Meadow Plate is the best option for an item on Tealpon because I think you get more mileage out of heavy duty boots, but it is also an option to break through Gliscor and Toxapex easier, not to mention those 2 are also the backbone of many balance teams so that is still a nice option to have against those teams. Not only is it’s item slot freed, Tealpon also has one of the best traits in the game that no other Pokemon really has; the ability to gain a permanent speed boost after tera. Not only is this a trait no other Pokemon has, and that Ogerpon becomes nigh impossible to revenge kill with the tier’s best speed control options, it is also very good to have in a very offensive metagame. I think these last couple months during Ladder Tour and WC have mainly shown the meta has been leading towards offensive styles because they overwhelm just so much of the tier. These offenses have mainly been defined by Landorus-T, Iron Crown / Gking, and some kind of speed control as their base. Not only does Ogerpon prey on these types of cores due to good coverage in knock off, it also takes full advantage of Landorus-T being the main physdef piece on offensive teams due to defiant instead raising its attack instead of lowering it, making for offense to pivot around and threaten tealpon than something like waterpon (due to not gaining a speed boost). Checks to Grass types on offense, such as Volcarona, Raging Bolt, and Dragonite all have issues that make them not stonewalls into Ogerpon. Volcarona only needs slight chip for +2 Ogerpon to ko with knock off. Dragonite, due to not running recovery on offensive teams, does not like a knock off from ogerpon and hinders dnite’s ability to setup more consistently if it is forced out by, say, ice spinner scarf urshifu or scarf Tapu lele. Raging Bolt, which commonly runs leftovers on offense, doesn’t like being knocked off either and only comes in a few amount of times after being lefties-less. The reason why other grasses (besides the other ogerpons we already discussed what makes tealpon different from them) like Kartana and Rillaboom don’t do the same thing as effectively is for 2 reasons. 1. Ogerpon is able to gain a speed boost, making it far more effective against offenses’s more fast paced nature (the weak priority from Rillaboom and the worse wincon potential of Scarf Kartana not withstanding) and 2. Kartana and Rillaboom are more easily pivoted around by landorus-T, something Ogerpon does not struggle with. All in all, I think Ogerpon is an actually viable Pokemon that is good on offense and bulky offense teams as secondary speed control that can help teams against the swarm of lando offenses in the metagame. Sure, it has a decent amount of rough matchups, but with good hazard management and the good ability to click knock off said matchups are still playable. I can see this thing definitely rising to B- in the future and, if it gets optimized even further, B.


Mega Scizor has been in a rough viability cycle in Natdex these last couple months and is at one of its lowest points at B+. There, we went through the obvious and the statement I have said many times. I do think, however, it is time for Mega Scizor to once more shine in the spotlight in the following tours. Mega Scizor is not a more fringe mon or something that was more recently discovered unlike the last 2, but I mention it in this post because I have tested the mon out and it has seen good success on certain BO and Offense structures alike. Mega Scizor rewards teams that build for its way as a wincon. What I mean by this is that checks to Mega Scizor, such as raging Bolt, gouging fire, Rocky helmet landorus-T, etc are all able to be worn down quite easily throughout the course of a game via hazards or just good progress making teammates in general. This is important because once these checks are worn down they suddenly aren’t checks anymore, paving the way for a dangerous wincon in msciz to be opened up against a variety of gking, utility Gliscor, and Alomomola teams (not all of those 3 on the same team that is a very bad core and you shouldn’t use it, just certain Pokemon that are commonly found on the backbones of certain teams). Bulky Sd knock off sets are very good into balance teams in combination with hazards, as well as knock off msciz being a great way to cripple many checks in gouging fire, Volcarona, Dondozo, and Toxapex. Knock Off also has the added benefit of being able to ohko gking at +2, which means it can’t hinder msciz with twave unless it uses Tera. 2A offensive sets are also good wincons against a variety of teams once Toxapex has been lured or ko’d with teammates like Tapu Koko, dark z Darkrai, or raging bolt. CC is probably the best option on these sets so then things like Heatran, Raging Bolt, and Ferrothorn don’t annoy msciz as much, but with a defined defensive core or highly aggressive teammates Dual Wingbeat is another good option to ohko an offensive check in Waterpon and deal sizable amounts of damage to Toxapex, but no cc does truly hurt it and it doesn’t do very well against Corviknight either, regulating Dwb as an option to more aggressive offense teams. Oh and how could I have forgotten its great defensive utility? It’s an amazing stopgap against Pokemon like Tapu Lele, Dragonite, and Weavile and is very consistent at being so due to its great bulk and roost. It also has some other miscellaneous defensive utility in checking kyurem for balance / standard Bo teams (this will be very important when Kyurem starts to be innovated in the upcoming tours!) and absorbing knock off from Rillaboom, Ferrothorn, and weavile. HO teams also appreciate its ability as a steel type (helping them not auto lose to Tapu lele among other things but Tapu lele is the big one) while also being a good breaker and cleaner against the majority of this BO / Offensive metagame. I suspect Mega Scizor being a good defensive and offensive piece in the future, and I’m sure I only scratched the surface on what it’s role in the metagame will be like once it is developed further with different teamcomps for it being innovated.


Sets for all 3:

Hide

Primarina @ Leftovers / Custap Berry
Ability: Torrent
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 232 HP / 136 SpA / 140 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Psychic Noise / Substitute
- Hydro Pump / Scald
- Moonblast

EVs live a Solar Beam from Mega Charizard Y and outspeed Heatran.


Ogerpon (F) @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Defiant
Tera Type: Grass
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Ivy Cudgel
- Superpower
- Knock Off


Scizor-Mega @ Scizorite
Ability: Technician
Tera Type: Bug
EVs: 252 HP / 92 Atk / 28 SpD / 136 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Bullet Punch
- Close Combat
- Swords Dance
- Roost

EVs creep Raging Bolt (and anything trying to outspeed it) while also taking focus blasts from Tapu lele easier.

Scizor-Mega @ Scizorite
Ability: Technician
Tera Type: Bug
EVs: 248 HP / 112 Def / 116 SpD / 28 Spe
Impish Nature
- Swords Dance
- Knock Off
- Bullet Punch
- Roost

Scizor-Mega @ Scizorite
Ability: Technician
Tera Type: Bug
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Bullet Punch
- Swords Dance
- Close Combat
- Dual Wingbeat

teams I tested with for all 3:

Hide

https://pokepast.es/6c0a839538001269
https://pokepast.es/969af6e39ee02e67
https://pokepast.es/008bc58cd49b7952
https://pokepast.es/1355864b3a296454
https://pokepast.es/ee4a055d78629fbb

Alright I’m done rambling, have a good day!

... im NOT letting this slide. will go on a longer rant of these 3. you are not the larper. I am.
will edit soon for yap sesh. currently in the bathroom.

 

[HunterNeverHere9]

Hello, I am here to talk about 3 Pokemon in this metagame that I think are interesting and worth discussing, those 3 being



This Pokemon has generally flown under some people’s radar and I don’t think the community as a whole quite understands how it works and functions. I think Primarina is good because it offers quite a lot of defensive utility to offense that is lacking atm; Being able to check Urshifu-R, probably the best speed control option in the tier that annoys offense extremely, and being able to do so effectively along with using it as setup if Primarina is using leftovers is a very good trait to have. Not only that, I think Primarina also has a very uncommon trait among offensive Pokemon ever since the Zamazenta ban, and that is a dark resist. With some bulk invest, Primarina is able to act as surprisingly one of the more effective dark resists in the tier, checking the likes of Hisuian Samurott, Weavile, and Darkrai with some hp investment and leftovers. Being a dark resist for offense isn’t a very high bar for competition since there are none besides Tera fairy iron crown, but that just defines its niche even further. Besides this, there are only a few other Dark resists for BO and Offense teams; Clefable, which only fits on more specific Bo structures and struggles to find opportunity to be a threat to the majority of the tier on the same level as prim, Mega Tyranitar, which is not found on more aggressive offense teams but can fit on BO and is admittedly a very good dark resist, and… what else? Iron Hands? Tapu Fini?! Not only does Primarina have one of the best traits in the tier for offense and Bulky Offense teams alike that the tier most certainly is lacking, it is also a potent wincon against a majority of more balanced or Bulky offense teams in combination with Tera. Primarina is able to act as a potent breaker against a lot of BO teams that have Heatran, Garganacl, and LandoT as defensive pieces, and imo Garganacl BO is one of the best styles to take advantage of atm, with LandoTran still being a tried and true BO defensive core and being very consistent and strangely hard to exploit with the right teammates supporting such teams. Sure, those teams may use something like Raging Bolt or Ogerpon-W as a water resist, but raging bolt does not want to switch into prim consistently and Ogerpon-W, while a fair argument, still is worn down very easily by prim and the combination of hazards given the opportunity; Prim puts many of these Bo teams in very uncomfortable positions, and a lot of these teams using threats like Darkrai, Heatran, and Urshifu-R makes Prim’s matchup into BO and even some balances very nice. Not only this, as mentioned before Prim is very helped out by Tera; it uses Tera Steel very well, gaining opportunities to break against Corviknight and Slowking-G balances on top of using Pokemon like Tapu Lele, one of the tier’s best speed control and breaking options, and Iron Valiant locked into Moonblast as setup fodder, staying consistent in these matchups through the help of some bulk and leftovers. I’ve been talking about Leftovers mainly, but Custap Berry is also a good option on very aggressive offenses or ho teams to also aid in prim’s other role as a trading tool. Prim is very slow, sure, but it’s trading ability against a lot of Lando Offenses and Mlop teams is very good. I would also like to mention Primarina’s great combination with spikes, wearing down checks such as Ogerpon-W and Ferrothorn so Primarina can break easier; a core I like to use is Primarina + Spikes Meowscarada or Ferrothorn, which also provide knock off and provide other miscellaneous utility such as pivoting with meows and leech seed healing + chip with ferro. Psychic noise is also very annoying, due to Primarina preying on a ton of bulkier Pokemon that rely on recovery such as Toxapex (pnoise’s main target), Alomomola, and Ferrothorn (with Tera steel) to do jobs efficiently (and also is very good vs. fatter or stall teams). CM Dkiss is also an interesting option, utilizing Prim’s good defensive traits and making it a potent wincon, but I haven’t tested the set out myself. Encore is also a very good option with the aforementioned spikes, locking the best defogger, Corviknight, into roosts and generally threatening those teams from there while also being a very good option against Alomomola and Tera Water Garganacl. Also, do NOT use liquid voice on this mon; torrent allows Primarina to trade very effectively against offenses and lvoice will only hinder this, not to mention you lose a lot of the offensive pressure something like hydro pump or even scald would bring.


No I did not type in the sprites incorrectly. This Pokemon has been seeing more usage lately and has even achieved a good C+ ranking on the vr after being previously unranked, showing the mon has potential to do even more stuff in the future (maybe during summer ssnl or NdPl? Not sure). But what does it do to separate itself from a variety of other grass types in the tier along with its masked forms? Well, for starters, let’s talk about its item slot, something that differentiates it from its other forms greatly. I have found that the other Ogerpons are prone to hazard chip, which can be an issue for them if they are the desired wincon in a game. Not to say this hinders their viability THAT much, but it is still nice that Tealpon doesn’t have this issue because it is able to run heavy duty boots, which makes it a better wincon against teams that use hazard chip (mainly through spikes) and speed control as a way to deal with Waterpon. I don’t think Meadow Plate is the best option for an item on Tealpon because I think you get more mileage out of heavy duty boots, but it is also an option to break through Gliscor and Toxapex easier, not to mention those 2 are also the backbone of many balance teams so that is still a nice option to have against those teams. Not only is it’s item slot freed, Tealpon also has one of the best traits in the game that no other Pokemon really has; the ability to gain a permanent speed boost after tera. Not only is this a trait no other Pokemon has, and that Ogerpon becomes nigh impossible to revenge kill with the tier’s best speed control options, it is also very good to have in a very offensive metagame. I think these last couple months during Ladder Tour and WC have mainly shown the meta has been leading towards offensive styles because they overwhelm just so much of the tier. These offenses have mainly been defined by Landorus-T, Iron Crown / Gking, and some kind of speed control as their base. Not only does Ogerpon prey on these types of cores due to good coverage in knock off, it also takes full advantage of Landorus-T being the main physdef piece on offensive teams due to defiant instead raising its attack instead of lowering it, making for offense to pivot around and threaten tealpon than something like waterpon (due to not gaining a speed boost). Checks to Grass types on offense, such as Volcarona, Raging Bolt, and Dragonite all have issues that make them not stonewalls into Ogerpon. Volcarona only needs slight chip for +2 Ogerpon to ko with knock off. Dragonite, due to not running recovery on offensive teams, does not like a knock off from ogerpon and hinders dnite’s ability to setup more consistently if it is forced out by, say, ice spinner scarf urshifu or scarf Tapu lele. Raging Bolt, which commonly runs leftovers on offense, doesn’t like being knocked off either and only comes in a few amount of times after being lefties-less. The reason why other grasses (besides the other ogerpons we already discussed what makes tealpon different from them) like Kartana and Rillaboom don’t do the same thing as effectively is for 2 reasons. 1. Ogerpon is able to gain a speed boost, making it far more effective against offenses’s more fast paced nature (the weak priority from Rillaboom and the worse wincon potential of Scarf Kartana not withstanding) and 2. Kartana and Rillaboom are more easily pivoted around by landorus-T, something Ogerpon does not struggle with. All in all, I think Ogerpon is an actually viable Pokemon that is good on offense and bulky offense teams as secondary speed control that can help teams against the swarm of lando offenses in the metagame. Sure, it has a decent amount of rough matchups, but with good hazard management and the good ability to click knock off said matchups are still playable. I can see this thing definitely rising to B- in the future and, if it gets optimized even further, B.


Mega Scizor has been in a rough viability cycle in Natdex these last couple months and is at one of its lowest points at B+. There, we went through the obvious and the statement I have said many times. I do think, however, it is time for Mega Scizor to once more shine in the spotlight in the following tours. Mega Scizor is not a more fringe mon or something that was more recently discovered unlike the last 2, but I mention it in this post because I have tested the mon out and it has seen good success on certain BO and Offense structures alike. Mega Scizor rewards teams that build for its way as a wincon. What I mean by this is that checks to Mega Scizor, such as raging Bolt, gouging fire, Rocky helmet landorus-T, etc are all able to be worn down quite easily throughout the course of a game via hazards or just good progress making teammates in general. This is important because once these checks are worn down they suddenly aren’t checks anymore, paving the way for a dangerous wincon in msciz to be opened up against a variety of gking, utility Gliscor, and Alomomola teams (not all of those 3 on the same team that is a very bad core and you shouldn’t use it, just certain Pokemon that are commonly found on the backbones of certain teams). Bulky Sd knock off sets are very good into balance teams in combination with hazards, as well as knock off msciz being a great way to cripple many checks in gouging fire, Volcarona, Dondozo, and Toxapex. Knock Off also has the added benefit of being able to ohko gking at +2, which means it can’t hinder msciz with twave unless it uses Tera. 2A offensive sets are also good wincons against a variety of teams once Toxapex has been lured or ko’d with teammates like Tapu Koko, dark z Darkrai, or raging bolt. CC is probably the best option on these sets so then things like Heatran, Raging Bolt, and Ferrothorn don’t annoy msciz as much, but with a defined defensive core or highly aggressive teammates Dual Wingbeat is another good option to ohko an offensive check in Waterpon and deal sizable amounts of damage to Toxapex, but no cc does truly hurt it and it doesn’t do very well against Corviknight either, regulating Dwb as an option to more aggressive offense teams. Oh and how could I have forgotten its great defensive utility? It’s an amazing stopgap against Pokemon like Tapu Lele, Dragonite, and Weavile and is very consistent at being so due to its great bulk and roost. It also has some other miscellaneous defensive utility in checking kyurem for balance / standard Bo teams (this will be very important when Kyurem starts to be innovated in the upcoming tours!) and absorbing knock off from Rillaboom, Ferrothorn, and weavile. HO teams also appreciate its ability as a steel type (helping them not auto lose to Tapu lele among other things but Tapu lele is the big one) while also being a good breaker and cleaner against the majority of this BO / Offensive metagame. I suspect Mega Scizor being a good defensive and offensive piece in the future, and I’m sure I only scratched the surface on what it’s role in the metagame will be like once it is developed further with different teamcomps for it being innovated.


Sets for all 3:

Hide

Primarina @ Leftovers / Custap Berry
Ability: Torrent
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 232 HP / 136 SpA / 140 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Psychic Noise / Substitute
- Hydro Pump / Scald
- Moonblast

EVs live a Solar Beam from Mega Charizard Y and outspeed Heatran.


Ogerpon (F) @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Defiant
Tera Type: Grass
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Ivy Cudgel
- Superpower
- Knock Off


Scizor-Mega @ Scizorite
Ability: Technician
Tera Type: Bug
EVs: 252 HP / 92 Atk / 28 SpD / 136 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Bullet Punch
- Close Combat
- Swords Dance
- Roost

EVs creep Raging Bolt (and anything trying to outspeed it) while also taking focus blasts from Tapu lele easier.

Scizor-Mega @ Scizorite
Ability: Technician
Tera Type: Bug
EVs: 248 HP / 112 Def / 116 SpD / 28 Spe
Impish Nature
- Swords Dance
- Knock Off
- Bullet Punch
- Roost

Scizor-Mega @ Scizorite
Ability: Technician
Tera Type: Bug
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Bullet Punch
- Swords Dance
- Close Combat
- Dual Wingbeat

teams I tested with for all 3:

Hide

https://pokepast.es/6c0a839538001269
https://pokepast.es/969af6e39ee02e67
https://pokepast.es/008bc58cd49b7952
https://pokepast.es/1355864b3a296454
https://pokepast.es/ee4a055d78629fbb

Alright I’m done rambling, have a good day!

Nice but imo dropped significantly after got banned(iirc the timing correctly) and there are better mons to voltturn with than and also it suffers from 4mss. is rlly good as well embody aspect speed combined with defiant/band hits so fucking hard. Also drop boots since sd sets lack the power boost from masks

 

[Ineros]

Nice but imo dropped significantly after got banned(iirc the timing correctly) and there are better mons to voltturn with than and also it suffers from 4mss. is rlly good as well embody aspect speed combined with defiant/band hits so fucking hard. Also drop boots since sd sets lack the power boost from masks

1. Primarina is only a recent invention at least in National Dex, it didn’t really see usage outside of some gimmick teams people tried to check walking wake with prim in that meta. Primarina still has its uses against a decent chunk of the current metagame and although not the greatest is definitely worth using thanks to its good matchups into a ton of common BO and balance structures. In short, walking wake didn’t really affect it too much.

2. Mega Scizor is not a Volturn machine, and even then if it does use u turn it is not completely outclassed either due to its unique blend of offensive traits in sd + bullet bunch to shred through offensive teams, defensive utility in checking Tapu lele / weavile, and its ability to heal with roost and consistently pivot in a game. Regulating Mega Scizor to a u turn role and not looking at any of its other sets, such as more offensive variants or bulky sd sets with knock off, is not a good picture of msciz as a mon in general and why it is so good.

3. Why not boots? Teams that use sd Tealpon nowadays mainly run it because of hazards being a detriment for Tealpon’s role as a fast wincon. SD boosted 120 base attack moves aren’t lacking too much power outside of the occasional mega scizor or yard matchups either; boots is what separates tealpon from its other forms in being a wincon able to check offense while also being consistent in the face of hazards due to being hazard immune with boots. Meadow Plate is an ok choice but it does not compare to the utility Boots gives as a whole, and with hazard chip tealpon is fine at breaking down both offensive and defensive cores. Not only that, whenever tealpon has seen usage recently it has been all with heavy duty boots. The best examples I can give for this are its usage of boots in both this sample team and these replays in the recent National Dex invitational, with both having good results from good players in the competitive scene.

 

[Lightniong]

Hello, I am here to talk about 3 Pokemon in this metagame that I think are interesting and worth discussing, those 3 being



This Pokemon has generally flown under some people’s radar and I don’t think the community as a whole quite understands how it works and functions. I think Primarina is good because it offers quite a lot of defensive utility to offense that is lacking atm; Being able to check Urshifu-R, probably the best speed control option in the tier that annoys offense extremely, and being able to do so effectively along with using it as setup if Primarina is using leftovers is a very good trait to have. Not only that, I think Primarina also has a very uncommon trait among offensive Pokemon ever since the Zamazenta ban, and that is a dark resist. With some bulk invest, Primarina is able to act as surprisingly one of the more effective dark resists in the tier, checking the likes of Hisuian Samurott, Weavile, and Darkrai with some hp investment and leftovers. Being a dark resist for offense isn’t a very high bar for competition since there are none besides Tera fairy iron crown, but that just defines its niche even further. Besides this, there are only a few other Dark resists for BO and Offense teams; Clefable, which only fits on more specific Bo structures and struggles to find opportunity to be a threat to the majority of the tier on the same level as prim, Mega Tyranitar, which is not found on more aggressive offense teams but can fit on BO and is admittedly a very good dark resist, and… what else? Iron Hands? Tapu Fini?! Not only does Primarina have one of the best traits in the tier for offense and Bulky Offense teams alike that the tier most certainly is lacking, it is also a potent wincon against a majority of more balanced or Bulky offense teams in combination with Tera. Primarina is able to act as a potent breaker against a lot of BO teams that have Heatran, Garganacl, and LandoT as defensive pieces, and imo Garganacl BO is one of the best styles to take advantage of atm, with LandoTran still being a tried and true BO defensive core and being very consistent and strangely hard to exploit with the right teammates supporting such teams. Sure, those teams may use something like Raging Bolt or Ogerpon-W as a water resist, but raging bolt does not want to switch into prim consistently and Ogerpon-W, while a fair argument, still is worn down very easily by prim and the combination of hazards given the opportunity; Prim puts many of these Bo teams in very uncomfortable positions, and a lot of these teams using threats like Darkrai, Heatran, and Urshifu-R makes Prim’s matchup into BO and even some balances very nice. Not only this, as mentioned before Prim is very helped out by Tera; it uses Tera Steel very well, gaining opportunities to break against Corviknight and Slowking-G balances on top of using Pokemon like Tapu Lele, one of the tier’s best speed control and breaking options, and Iron Valiant locked into Moonblast as setup fodder, staying consistent in these matchups through the help of some bulk and leftovers. I’ve been talking about Leftovers mainly, but Custap Berry is also a good option on very aggressive offenses or ho teams to also aid in prim’s other role as a trading tool. Prim is very slow, sure, but it’s trading ability against a lot of Lando Offenses and Mlop teams is very good. I would also like to mention Primarina’s great combination with spikes, wearing down checks such as Ogerpon-W and Ferrothorn so Primarina can break easier; a core I like to use is Primarina + Spikes Meowscarada or Ferrothorn, which also provide knock off and provide other miscellaneous utility such as pivoting with meows and leech seed healing + chip with ferro. Psychic noise is also very annoying, due to Primarina preying on a ton of bulkier Pokemon that rely on recovery such as Toxapex (pnoise’s main target), Alomomola, and Ferrothorn (with Tera steel) to do jobs efficiently (and also is very good vs. fatter or stall teams). CM Dkiss is also an interesting option, utilizing Prim’s good defensive traits and making it a potent wincon, but I haven’t tested the set out myself. Encore is also a very good option with the aforementioned spikes, locking the best defogger, Corviknight, into roosts and generally threatening those teams from there while also being a very good option against Alomomola and Tera Water Garganacl. Also, do NOT use liquid voice on this mon; torrent allows Primarina to trade very effectively against offenses and lvoice will only hinder this, not to mention you lose a lot of the offensive pressure something like hydro pump or even scald would bring.


No I did not type in the sprites incorrectly. This Pokemon has been seeing more usage lately and has even achieved a good C+ ranking on the vr after being previously unranked, showing the mon has potential to do even more stuff in the future (maybe during summer ssnl or NdPl? Not sure). But what does it do to separate itself from a variety of other grass types in the tier along with its masked forms? Well, for starters, let’s talk about its item slot, something that differentiates it from its other forms greatly. I have found that the other Ogerpons are prone to hazard chip, which can be an issue for them if they are the desired wincon in a game. Not to say this hinders their viability THAT much, but it is still nice that Tealpon doesn’t have this issue because it is able to run heavy duty boots, which makes it a better wincon against teams that use hazard chip (mainly through spikes) and speed control as a way to deal with Waterpon. I don’t think Meadow Plate is the best option for an item on Tealpon because I think you get more mileage out of heavy duty boots, but it is also an option to break through Gliscor and Toxapex easier, not to mention those 2 are also the backbone of many balance teams so that is still a nice option to have against those teams. Not only is it’s item slot freed, Tealpon also has one of the best traits in the game that no other Pokemon really has; the ability to gain a permanent speed boost after tera. Not only is this a trait no other Pokemon has, and that Ogerpon becomes nigh impossible to revenge kill with the tier’s best speed control options, it is also very good to have in a very offensive metagame. I think these last couple months during Ladder Tour and WC have mainly shown the meta has been leading towards offensive styles because they overwhelm just so much of the tier. These offenses have mainly been defined by Landorus-T, Iron Crown / Gking, and some kind of speed control as their base. Not only does Ogerpon prey on these types of cores due to good coverage in knock off, it also takes full advantage of Landorus-T being the main physdef piece on offensive teams due to defiant instead raising its attack instead of lowering it, making for offense to pivot around and threaten tealpon than something like waterpon (due to not gaining a speed boost). Checks to Grass types on offense, such as Volcarona, Raging Bolt, and Dragonite all have issues that make them not stonewalls into Ogerpon. Volcarona only needs slight chip for +2 Ogerpon to ko with knock off. Dragonite, due to not running recovery on offensive teams, does not like a knock off from ogerpon and hinders dnite’s ability to setup more consistently if it is forced out by, say, ice spinner scarf urshifu or scarf Tapu lele. Raging Bolt, which commonly runs leftovers on offense, doesn’t like being knocked off either and only comes in a few amount of times after being lefties-less. The reason why other grasses (besides the other ogerpons we already discussed what makes tealpon different from them) like Kartana and Rillaboom don’t do the same thing as effectively is for 2 reasons. 1. Ogerpon is able to gain a speed boost, making it far more effective against offenses’s more fast paced nature (the weak priority from Rillaboom and the worse wincon potential of Scarf Kartana not withstanding) and 2. Kartana and Rillaboom are more easily pivoted around by landorus-T, something Ogerpon does not struggle with. All in all, I think Ogerpon is an actually viable Pokemon that is good on offense and bulky offense teams as secondary speed control that can help teams against the swarm of lando offenses in the metagame. Sure, it has a decent amount of rough matchups, but with good hazard management and the good ability to click knock off said matchups are still playable. I can see this thing definitely rising to B- in the future and, if it gets optimized even further, B.


Mega Scizor has been in a rough viability cycle in Natdex these last couple months and is at one of its lowest points at B+. There, we went through the obvious and the statement I have said many times. I do think, however, it is time for Mega Scizor to once more shine in the spotlight in the following tours. Mega Scizor is not a more fringe mon or something that was more recently discovered unlike the last 2, but I mention it in this post because I have tested the mon out and it has seen good success on certain BO and Offense structures alike. Mega Scizor rewards teams that build for its way as a wincon. What I mean by this is that checks to Mega Scizor, such as raging Bolt, gouging fire, Rocky helmet landorus-T, etc are all able to be worn down quite easily throughout the course of a game via hazards or just good progress making teammates in general. This is important because once these checks are worn down they suddenly aren’t checks anymore, paving the way for a dangerous wincon in msciz to be opened up against a variety of gking, utility Gliscor, and Alomomola teams (not all of those 3 on the same team that is a very bad core and you shouldn’t use it, just certain Pokemon that are commonly found on the backbones of certain teams). Bulky Sd knock off sets are very good into balance teams in combination with hazards, as well as knock off msciz being a great way to cripple many checks in gouging fire, Volcarona, Dondozo, and Toxapex. Knock Off also has the added benefit of being able to ohko gking at +2, which means it can’t hinder msciz with twave unless it uses Tera. 2A offensive sets are also good wincons against a variety of teams once Toxapex has been lured or ko’d with teammates like Tapu Koko, dark z Darkrai, or raging bolt. CC is probably the best option on these sets so then things like Heatran, Raging Bolt, and Ferrothorn don’t annoy msciz as much, but with a defined defensive core or highly aggressive teammates Dual Wingbeat is another good option to ohko an offensive check in Waterpon and deal sizable amounts of damage to Toxapex, but no cc does truly hurt it and it doesn’t do very well against Corviknight either, regulating Dwb as an option to more aggressive offense teams. Oh and how could I have forgotten its great defensive utility? It’s an amazing stopgap against Pokemon like Tapu Lele, Dragonite, and Weavile and is very consistent at being so due to its great bulk and roost. It also has some other miscellaneous defensive utility in checking kyurem for balance / standard Bo teams (this will be very important when Kyurem starts to be innovated in the upcoming tours!) and absorbing knock off from Rillaboom, Ferrothorn, and weavile. HO teams also appreciate its ability as a steel type (helping them not auto lose to Tapu lele among other things but Tapu lele is the big one) while also being a good breaker and cleaner against the majority of this BO / Offensive metagame. I suspect Mega Scizor being a good defensive and offensive piece in the future, and I’m sure I only scratched the surface on what it’s role in the metagame will be like once it is developed further with different teamcomps for it being innovated.


Sets for all 3:

Hide

Primarina @ Leftovers / Custap Berry
Ability: Torrent
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 232 HP / 136 SpA / 140 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Psychic Noise / Substitute
- Hydro Pump / Scald
- Moonblast

EVs live a Solar Beam from Mega Charizard Y and outspeed Heatran.


Ogerpon (F) @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Defiant
Tera Type: Grass
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Ivy Cudgel
- Superpower
- Knock Off


Scizor-Mega @ Scizorite
Ability: Technician
Tera Type: Bug
EVs: 252 HP / 92 Atk / 28 SpD / 136 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Bullet Punch
- Close Combat
- Swords Dance
- Roost

EVs creep Raging Bolt (and anything trying to outspeed it) while also taking focus blasts from Tapu lele easier.

Scizor-Mega @ Scizorite
Ability: Technician
Tera Type: Bug
EVs: 248 HP / 112 Def / 116 SpD / 28 Spe
Impish Nature
- Swords Dance
- Knock Off
- Bullet Punch
- Roost

Scizor-Mega @ Scizorite
Ability: Technician
Tera Type: Bug
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Bullet Punch
- Swords Dance
- Close Combat
- Dual Wingbeat

teams I tested with for all 3:

Hide

https://pokepast.es/6c0a839538001269
https://pokepast.es/969af6e39ee02e67
https://pokepast.es/008bc58cd49b7952
https://pokepast.es/1355864b3a296454
https://pokepast.es/ee4a055d78629fbb

Alright I’m done rambling, have a good day!

I ain’t reading allat, however i wan to yap about a certain set of Pokémon.
U-turn + Swords Dance Msciz can actually work in this metagame. Now, you all might be questioning why would you put a switch move on a sweeping Pokémon. The point is, when you’re cleaning with Msciz, you’re really just clicking Bullet Punch, with the Luther coverage moves being just in case you run into stuff. However, Msciz can also U-turn if a walk comes, and especially with a Swords Dance up,can solidly check the wall that should be coming in, while also keeping the ability to clean with bullet punch. However, there are some big flaws, most notably that it’s prediction reliant and a little bit reliant on the element of surprise as realistically a wall has come in when you have swords danced up, but regular u-turn isn’t that big of a problem, and in the right team, can really work miracles.

 

[HunterNeverHere9]

1. Primarina is only a recent invention at least in National Dex, it didn’t really see usage outside of some gimmick teams people tried to check walking wake with prim in that meta. Primarina still has its uses against a decent chunk of the current metagame and although not the greatest is definitely worth using thanks to its good matchups into a ton of common BO and balance structures. In short, walking wake didn’t really affect it too much.

2. Mega Scizor is not a Volturn machine, and even then if it does use u turn it is not completely outclassed either due to its unique blend of offensive traits in sd + bullet bunch to shred through offensive teams, defensive utility in checking Tapu lele / weavile, and its ability to heal with roost and consistently pivot in a game. Regulating Mega Scizor to a u turn role and not looking at any of its other sets, such as more offensive variants or bulky sd sets with knock off, is not a good picture of msciz as a mon in general and why it is so good.

3. Why not boots? Teams that use sd Tealpon nowadays mainly run it because of hazards being a detriment for Tealpon’s role as a fast wincon. SD boosted 120 base attack moves aren’t lacking too much power outside of the occasional mega scizor or yard matchups either; boots is what separates tealpon from its other forms in being a wincon able to check offense while also being consistent in the face of hazards due to being hazard immune with boots. Meadow Plate is an ok choice but it does not compare to the utility Boots gives as a whole, and with hazard chip tealpon is fine at breaking down both offensive and defensive cores. Not only that, whenever tealpon has seen usage recently it has been all with heavy duty boots. The best examples I can give for this are its usage of boots in both this sample team and these replays in the recent National Dex invitational, with both having good results from good players in the competitive scene.

i thought was only used to check wake and generally i didnt really test it out. same with and while sd+bullet punch is great, 4mss is what holds it back. is imo great with band but there isnt rlly a reason to run sd when is right there and also im still trying out with voltturn since its decent and is imo outclassed by and /

 

[BrisingrDraconis]

i thought was only used to check wake and generally i didnt really test it out. same with and while sd+bullet punch is great, 4mss is what holds it back. is imo great with band but there isnt rlly a reason to run sd when is right there and also im still trying out with voltturn since its decent and is imo outclassed by and /

I'm going to go ahead and give my opinion on msciz vs the things you said can outclass it.

All four of those megas have differing roles. Mega Scizor functions as a bulky set-up sweeper that can heal off damage with roost as well as functioning as a long term check to pokemon like tapu lele as Ineros said. Mtar doesn't have this same utility in checking many of the mons that msciz checks, and it can be worn down over the course of the game because it doesn't have any options for recovery. Mtar also doesn't function as a potential set-up sweeper like Msciz does. Mlop is a great mon for speed control and has the ability to hit everything for at least neutral damage with its two strong stabs, but it doesn't have any of the defensive utility that msciz has nor can it heal off any damage it takes. Mmedi also has very little defensive utility, no way to recover its hp, and unlike being a set-up sweeper and/or defensive check to many mons like msciz is, it's just a fantastic breaker.

Overall msciz can do a lot of jobs with one set since it can check many threatening mons while also being threatening itself. The other megas you listed are certainly all very good, but I don't think that they can really be considered to outclass msciz considering the differences in each of their roles on a team.

 

[Moyashi]

Alright I'll throw my thoughts in since this is a good discussion and all three mons are interesting (and I'm familiar with them).


I do like this mon because it provides a dark resist which is pretty hard to come by these days and it's rather strong while packing that useful defensive value, meaning it doesn't suffer from passivity problems that something like Fini does (and yeah sorry, Fini is passive). That strength is important since Water/Fairy stab is actually harder to pivot around than some other stab combos in the tier, and lets Prim make progress better. CM sets are alright, something like Sub+CM is strong into Heatran/Garg teams while I think general bulky leftovers sets are good for offering that short term security into big dark type threats, and if you feel daring, Flip Turn is an option for maintaining momentum on switch ins that do wall it. It should never be a teams sole dark check though, especially because it does still suffer from an issue I don't like that Fini also had last gen, which is that it tends to be a knock off magnet. Still, I think it's prety cool and hope to see more experimentation with it going forwards.


I'm glad this is finally getting more use because it's always felt underappreciated. It was already touched on but it bears repeating that having an open item slot makes Tealpon more flexible in application, and combined with the inherent speed boost of its Tera form, brings an interesting and practical set of tools in an offensive metagame. Boots SD is good, and abuses the frailer metagame well (especially with tera), but it's also cool because it's a wincon that gets to be more involved in a game and soften up its own checks for later since with Boots, it isn't being easily worn down. +2 Tera Grass Cudgel is deceptively tough to respond to late game when the mon using it also happens to outpace nearly the whole tier thanks to the +1 Speed from Embody Aspect. There's more options for it like Encore on utility sets to disrupt slower set up threats like Curse Garg or SD Garchomp (Loaded Dice not Z sets obviously and provided you're in before it clicks Scale Shot), or a Calm Mind Raging Bolt (again, non Z variants).


Now this one I am split on. I kinda have a love hate relationship with this pokemon because I think in the right circumstances, SD MZor is a very good wincon that can clean up nicely and being a wincon with such strong defensive utility, helps a lot. On the other hand, I think utility sets are honestly ass and not threatening, especially Defog sets which just get abused by so much so easily. Back to SD though, I've been caught more than a few times thinking bulky SD is easy to handle and gotten my back handed to me for it so I definitely respect the threat it poses, especially as Knock Off helping wear down its own checks (and for its teammates potentially) is valuable. It can be frustrating vs Gouging Fire, which often runs Z or Booster which means MZor just gets set up on, but Raging Bolt leaning more into bulk lately (lefties sets anyone?) means Knock can still be useful. I think this mon has potential to make a comeback if it gets reinvented some and applied in more effective, though it's hard to deny right now it's at a low point.

 

[HunterNeverHere9]

I'm going to go ahead and give my opinion on msciz vs the things you said can outclass it.

All four of those megas have differing roles. Mega Scizor functions as a bulky set-up sweeper that can heal off damage with roost as well as functioning as a long term check to pokemon like tapu lele as Ineros said. Mtar doesn't have this same utility in checking many of the mons that msciz checks, and it can be worn down over the course of the game because it doesn't have any options for recovery. Mtar also doesn't function as a potential set-up sweeper like Msciz does. Mlop is a great mon for speed control and has the ability to hit everything for at least neutral damage with its two strong stabs, but it doesn't have any of the defensive utility that msciz has nor can it heal off any damage it takes. Mmedi also has very little defensive utility, no way to recover its hp, and unlike being a set-up sweeper and/or defensive check to many mons like msciz is, it's just a fantastic breaker.

Overall msciz can do a lot of jobs with one set since it can check many threatening mons while also being threatening itself. The other megas you listed are certainly all very good, but I don't think that they can really be considered to outclass msciz considering the differences in each of their roles on a team.

I kinda see your point but then why drop? 4mss was kinda my problem with but overall I still think it's good unless I did a poor job of explaining shit

 

[BrisingrDraconis]

I kinda see your point but then why drop? 4mss was kinda my problem with but overall I still think it's good unless I did a poor job of explaining shit

Assuming you're talking about its recent drop on the vr, the main reason mentioned was an uptick in usage of mons that threaten it like gouging and bolt and people just generally preparing for it more. I think there was also something someone mentioned about it feeling inconsistent in some matchups. It could definitely be considered "worse" now than it was before with an increase in people using mons that just beat it and/or force it out, but it's still considered a very solid pick. It does suffer from 4MSS, but yeah, even with that it's still a good mon.

And also even though it's prepared for more and whatnot like I said, that still doesn't take away from the things it can do that those other megas can't like checking lele, strong prio, etc.

 

[HunterNeverHere9]

And also even though it's prepared for more and whatnot like I said, that still doesn't take away from the things it can do that those other megas can't like checking lele, strong

Hp fire go brrr

Since everyone talking about mons that are actually good rn I wanna talk abt.. !

Literally insane. Sets rocks, pursuit traps and plays mindgames with whether are you clicking knock or pursuit and stone hits hard and imo is a rlly good stallbreaker. Suffers speed issues and insane prediction but overall it's broken. Pls don't run base it's absolutely useless