Announcement National Dex Other Tiers Spotlight League II - Format discussion

What metagames would you be interested to see included? (All are NatDex)

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Welcome to the second edition of the National Dex Other Tiers Spotlight League Team Tournament! This is a team tournament aiming to give more tournament representation to some lesser seen NDOTs. However, we will have to discuss what tiers to include - the priority being of course given to tiers that get the less representation, but that still get enough interest to attract signups. The formats currently up to consideration (<- up to change depending on community support) are all the metagames currently eligible for the National Dex Spotlight Ladder project that were not featured in the last NDPL, which are:
Ubers:
/

Doubles:
Gen 9 National Dex Doubles Ubers

Monotype:
Gen 9 National Dex Monotype Ubers
Gen 8 National Dex Monotype
Gen 9 National Dex Monotype (No Z-Moves)

UU:
Gen 8 National Dex UU

RU:
Gen 9 National Dex RU (Featured in the last NDPL)
Gen 8 National Dex RU

OMs:
Gen 9 National Dex Balanced Hackmons
Gen 9 National Dex Camomons
Gen 9 National Dex Convergence
Gen 9 National Dex Godly Gift
Gen 9 National Dex Little Cup
Gen 9 National Dex Mix and Mega
Gen 9 National Dex NFE
Gen 9 National Dex Ubers UU
Gen 9 National Dex AAA
Gen 9 National Dex Stabmons
Gen 8 National Dex AG
LC
STAB
AAA
NFE
GG
BH

The following two tiers will also be included if they get enough signups:

MnM
Convergence
This thread will also be about the number of slots we should include in the tournament.

Of course, some of these tiers already have a lot of tournament representation, while some others did not see any discussion/play for a while - this will of course be taken into account when the format will be decided. Happy posting!:psyglad:
 
not sure about the last fews slots, but I feel like STAB, NFE, LC, AAA, and BH should all find a spot as they are the top OMs. Personally, I think branching out to some other OTs like UUBers/NU/PU could work asw, or include other OMs like GG (emphasis on this), MnM, or Convergence. 8 slots maybe? We’ll see

Also I swear to god you better change it to NDOTPL R8 this is not a joke
 
@NU lovers:
Even though I run the tier, I don't really care if it gets in or not because I am more inclined to side against a tier that receives near zero recognition or support from National Dex staff.

Will make an actual post regarding the other formats later.
 
A. Why is this just not NDOTPL

B. I feel like we that we shoudn’t just stack up on the popular OM’s just because their popular and have at least 4-5 tiers that barely gain any recognition by the NDOT community, as since this is supposed to be a “spotlight“ league, it just wouldn’t make sense, and that would most likely breathe new life into these tiers. Going into more detail on why these popular metagames (like BH, NFE, LC, AAA, Etc,) should be restricted, these already see buzz surrounding the metagame, constant tournaments, and overall recognition in the community, and to have just a team tournament full of these would take a spot from an unknown tier that rarely sees tournament play, recieves no recognition from the NDOT community, and most people in the ND community probably woudn’t know about (Doubles Ubers, Monotype Ubers, Etc.). Having more of these tiers would bring light into these tiers, and, hopefully, let these tier gain a new boost in players, usage, and the like.

C. For the size, I honestly agree with what people here have said, I think 8 slots is a perfect balance in which you can have popular metagames and unknown metagames, but I wouldn't be opposed to 6 if most of the slots were unknown metagames.

D. I feel like one problem in the first NDOTSL is that it entirely consisted of OM’s, and sure, OM’s do contain a sizable majority of NDOT’s I feel like some actual actual OT‘s would make it overall better, to showcase that it’s just not all OM’s. Just to name an example, Natdex Ubers UU and NatDex Z-Less Monotype would be perfect metagames to add to NDSL, as they are OT’s that have seen enough use for at least some players to have prior experience jumping into these tiers, but not enough usage to that most people in the NDOT space for people to know, and I believe that these are fairly interesting metagames so that they deserve a spot.
E. I’m not the most popular or revered or respected person, but I just want to share what I think, so take my opinions with a small grain of salt.
F. I’m a yapper, so
 
Happy to see DUbers included as a potential option. Even though it hasn't been played as much as some other metas, we do play it sometimes in roomtours / via challenge and I'm happy to open the thread for it sooner rather than later if there's an interest in including it here / run more regular roomtours of it/perhaps a forum tour. There's been _some_ meta development as well, just not really on the forums. I think there's at least some kind of demand for it - I know quite a number of people who would most likely sign up for it.

NDPIC has zero development at this time and should not be considered, there isn't a ruleset for it and that tier requires a ton of tiering, whereas DUbers only has one tiering question to answer, Shedinja, and even that is really not an issue.
 
Lightniong said:
A. Why is this just not NDOTPL

B. I feel like we that we shoudn’t just stack up on the popular OM’s just because their popular and have at least 4-5 tiers that barely gain any recognition by the NDOT community, as since this is supposed to be a “spotlight“ league, it just wouldn’t make sense, and that would most likely breathe new life into these tiers. Going into more detail on why these popular metagames (like BH, NFE, LC, AAA, Etc,) should be restricted, these already see buzz surrounding the metagame, constant tournaments, and overall recognition in the community, and to have just a team tournament full of these would take a spot from an unknown tier that rarely sees tournament play, recieves no recognition from the NDOT community, and most people in the ND community probably woudn’t know about (Doubles Ubers, Monotype Ubers, Etc.). Having more of these tiers would bring light into these tiers, and, hopefully, let these tier gain a new boost in players, usage, and the like.

C. For the size, I honestly agree with what people here have said, I think 8 slots is a perfect balance in which you can have popular metagames and unknown metagames, but I wouldn't be opposed to 6 if most of the slots were unknown metagames.

D. I feel like one problem in the first NDOTSL is that it entirely consisted of OM’s, and sure, OM’s do contain a sizable majority of NDOT’s I feel like some actual actual OT‘s would make it overall better, to showcase that it’s just not all OM’s. Just to name an example, Natdex Ubers UU and NatDex Z-Less Monotype would be perfect metagames to add to NDSL, as they are OT’s that have seen enough use for at least some players to have prior experience jumping into these tiers, but not enough usage to that most people in the NDOT space for people to know, and I believe that these are fairly interesting metagames so that they deserve a spot.
E. I’m not the most popular or revered or respected person, but I just want to share what I think, so take my opinions with a small grain of salt.
F. I’m a yapper, so
Click to expand...
8 slots sounds nice but I don't think it's exactly sustainable to fill out the teams. Including more seperate communities like DUbers might be enough to bolster the numbers but the signups last year dont make me highly optimistic. Could try out the flexible option again and include the tiers if only there are enough signups, potentially.

Regarding prioritising unpopular tiers, while it is nice to see and try to develop lesser known, but promising tiers, it shouldn't actively take away from developing other promising tiers. Even the NDOTs mentioned here are not really highly developed, at the very least for AAA I can say so. All of the tiers here are rather niche and would love the spotlight to get more development. To disregard some of the more promising tiers that can attract players for this small pool and potentially develop the community the most seems unwise. For example, I like some of the more niche tiers like National Dex Convergence and it'd be nice to see it get development but I could hardly ever support it being within the league given the playerbase practically doesn't exist and is very unlikely to bring many players or much attention.

Regarding the preference of "OMs" within the spotlight league (though not technically as NFE/LC are UMs), I don't really care. Ubers UU or like DUbers or w/e seem more than fine and have their unique communities and merit though I don't think they should explicitly be given preference just because they're not OMs. Though Z-Less Monotype seems like a very odd choice considering NDMono already has the privilege of having their own section and to take away precious slots from other tiers vying for the spotlight seems bad, especially for what sounds like a suspect slot-esque of a tier that already has their own seperate community and support.

Overall for my preference I don't care too much (except for the fact that AAA gets in...) but it should be based on each tiers merit. NFE, LC, AAA, BH, STAB are the most prominent and promising tiers out of the "OM" bunch that all have some pre-established development and interest. Ubers UU and DUbers I don't know anything about personally but branching out to these communities seems more than fair if there's interest. The only other one I'd support is NDGG (due to personal bias) which would be nice but definitely is the lesser pick.
 
Seconding hidinn's post about some sort of incentive, honestly a banner or a custom would be awesome even if it is a little bit out of the realm of possibility, but it would be nice to have a go at trying anyway.

Formats i'd like to see:
AAA, BH, STAB, GG, Doubles Ubers, LC, NFE, UUbers

AAA, BH, STAB feel like must haves for me. I feel like these are pretty obvious enough.

I'm also pretty set on of GG Doubles Ubers and LC. I do love NDNFE, but they recently got their own slot in NFEPL, so I'm not sure if they should be prioritised here, over GG, DUbers, or LC - none of which have a slot anywhere else, notably DUbers not being in Derby and LC not being in LCPL.

I've italicised NFE and UUbers because they could be considerations over some of the other slots, like LC, however more likely I'd like to see them promised as slots for "if we get enough signups", like last year. It's entirely possible with the tour pulling from different communities (UUbers, OMs, Doubles, LC) that we would get enough signups for 8 slots, especially if there is some sort of incentive prize thingy, but we can't promise that given the sorry state of signups last year.

e: btw i'm calling dibs on the artwork
 
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Cutting to the chase, the formats I'd suggest are:
AAA
BH
STAB
LC
NFE
UUbers

These are my picks if we're limited to 6 slots. AAA and STAB are the two most popular formats by far when taking the ladder into account. BH and LC have more niche player bases, but those player bases are consistent and can be counted on to show up. NFE has the most up-to-date resources of all the formats listed (bar maybe STAB and AAA) and the only thing missing is a set compendium. UUbers shows promise as a format as I have seen many OU and Ubers players have a keen interest in the format, even if the UUbers player base isn't as large or active as monotype or doubles.

However, I do think the number of slots should be flexible, so here is how I think an 8 slot format should look like:
AAA
BH
STAB
LC
NFE
UUbers
Gen 9 Doubles Ubers
GG

I don't think Monotype formats should be included since NDMPL fits that niche a lot better and that tour already has a significant amount of following. I am intrigued at the possibility of exploring Gen 9 National Dex DUbers since it has player base to tap into and has only 1 salient tiering issue. While it would be cool for PiC to pick up some steam, there is no consensus on a code, let alone what the metagame look likes.

I want to run back ND GG again since I've eliminated most of the other options. As much I like Camomons and Convergence, both formats had very little engagement in tours and spotlight ladder votes. Mix and Mega is a cool format, but the new code is unwieldy and simply not practical for a tour setting. I'd love to see NU/PU be included since that increases the potential player pool, but I won't risk it on formats aren't recognized by Nat Dex staff. Lastly, I'm against including old gen formats if possible.

Admin if we're going with 8

NDOTSL had poor turn-out last year partly because of its awkward timing, and partly because it was the inaugural tournament and people weren't clued in on National Dex Other Tiers as a whole. However, over the past year we have garnered more attention to NDOT thanks to the Spotlight ladders and seasonals. Despite this, I still think we will run into issues concerning the pool of players. Having a reward sweetens the deal, but I'm not sure if it will guarantee a player pool that would make a 6x10 a viable format.

I propose that we keep the options open in the sign-up threads by allowing 8 metagames to be included, 6 core plus 2 more, to gauge interest. We could measure this by having an extra question in the sign-ups, something like "Are you interested in playing X or Y or Neither?" or by tabulating the sign-ups for the 2 extra formats differently. We had an issue last time where people who wanted to play Mix and Mega being drafted into tiers that they weren't motivated to play in. Accounting for this at the sign-up stage will give us the tools to deal with this situation if this happens again. I'll outline the changes to tabulating below.

Lets say, for the sake of argument, we have 3 core formats plus 2 extra formats and we have to sort 8 players. Here's how that would look like:

STABAAABHConvergenceCamomonsAll
CharizardFan2000CharizardFan2000Mike MilliganKing Edward IStrongZonezIsomer
VelcrocMike MilliganVelcrocTyruntJhoTyruntJho
zIsomerStallLordzIsomer
zIsomerVelcrocMike Milligan
zIsomerzIsomer

The table would work normally for CharizardFan2000 and StallLord since they only signed up for the core formats. Mike Milligan, zIsomer and Velcroc signed up for both the cores and extras, so they will be listed on the table separately. This is done to ensure we can easily identify users that have signed up only for the extras. Mike, Velcroc and zIsomer will not be significantly impacted if the 2 extra formats were to get axed.

Both King Edward I and StrongZone signed up for one of the extra formats. This would be a problem if Convergence and Camomons were to be axed. We would either remove them from the pool entirely come auction or allow for them to be selected as miscellaneous support. I prefer the latter. The same thing would apply to TyruntJho as they only signed up for the extra formats.
 
suggesting the addition of SS tiers is utterly ridiculous. those metagames do not fit this tour. monotype has its own PL, i see no reason to include those tiers in this tour as well. i also dont think an 8 tier PL is realistic (and i DO NOT support this, 6 is the best) considering, iirc, we got like just ~50 signups last year. the metagames that definitely should be in this tour:
  • National Dex LC
  • National Dex AAA
  • National Dex BH
  • National Dex STAB
  • National Dex NFE
i think GG can be removed for another tier. gg ssnl had a mere 11 signups, which is frankly too low, and the channel in the NDOMcord is also pretty inactive and not much productive discussion takes place nowadays. however, it has a historical significance, so u could definitely make a case for it. now for the alternatives:
  • National Dex UUbers
  • National Dex DUbers
I really hate DUbers as a slot here and i think it should be a non-starter if we go ahead with a 6 tier tour. not only does it have 0 historical significance, it is too new and underdeveloped (starting with PL right off the bat is just ???? at least get a kickoff first). i think we are so keen on including it cuz we think doubles mains r gonna fetch us extra signups, but thats not the way to go. it is still far too early for this. wait.
this leaves us with UUbers, and yea, it's a decent tier. it also has quite a bit of development and had a kickoff+ladder recently. it's definitely a good option.
so, for a 6 tier PL, we do:
  • National Dex LC
  • National Dex AAA
  • National Dex BH
  • National Dex STAB
  • National Dex NFE
  • National Dex UUbers
remove camo conv and shit lol no one plays those tiers.

TL;DR DON'T do 8 tiers, stick to 6, uubers>gg
 
Hello, i added a poll at the top of the thread with all the eligible formats that got support so far, to see how much support there is for each format - if you think one more should be mentioned it's not too late to make a case for it!
 
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Squeezing in a post here since I remembered DLC1 SS NDAG was brought up as a potential format if we reached 8 slots and it seems somewhat popular. Frankly I think the idea of having not only an old-gen in a spotlight league but a DLC1 oldgen SS NDAG meta included is a bit ridiculous. This tour is going to be a highlight for a lot of the metas here to grow and develop with the limited time they do have under this generation. A DLC 1 SS NDAG hardly has a future and doesn't promise to develop much of anything. People can find it fun and maybe want to play it, but they can also just do that in their own tours if they really wished to play (or even develop it further). Even DUbers, though it lacks any development or as much appeal as SS DLC1 NDAG, is more preferable to me (if you had to choose) as it can actually develop and grow while still retaining decent promise and interest (so I am told by Doubles players anyway)

Speaking of that, 8 slots does still seem a bit unrealistic to me but last year I remember there being a system where you could sign up for 8 formats but the tour would only start with 8 slots if the borderline formats (Conv, MnM last year) had enough signups. Seems like a decent way to hedge for either scenario. As for formats, I'd have to agree with Evie's post above for 8 slots, though if we're stuck with 6 probably STAB, AAA, NFE, LC, BH, UUbers. NFE could maybe be replaced? It is one of the promising communities and tiers but still small and has a large portion of its players pre-occupied with the ongoing NFEPL. Don't think any of the other tiers mentioned or polled are worth talking about.
 
Icemaster said:
Speaking on behalf of the Natdex AG Council of Players -- we only care if it's Natdex AG DLC 1.

https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/agpl-iv-format-discussion.3701625/post-9209900
Click to expand...
Considering this metagame is not currently supported by our subforum and that the inclusion of gen8ndag dlc2 is already controversial as is, including it in this NDOTSL edition is officially off the table. That being said, if there are people interested in running it, i would not be opposed for this metagame to receive support at some point in the future.
-------

With signups being around the corner, i am planning to bring this thread to its conclusion soon, so i am making this post to clarify what we are now heading towards. There has been some difference of opinions among the community, mostly on if we should have 6 or 8 slots and on the inclusion of some formats, but most people seem to agree on including the metagames below, so regardless of the other details we should probably have them in. I have to stress that this is not set in stone yet and can still be discussed in this thread if necessary, i am just trying to assess what seems to be the consensus here.

AAA
STABmons
LC
NFE
Ubers UU
BH

There has been some concerns about ND NFE since this metagame is part of a currently ongoing team tour (NFEPL), which is a concern i share, however there still doesn't seem to be very strong opposition to ND NFE despite that. Among all the metagames up to consideration in this thread it is also one of the most active ones, has complete resources, and there is still strong community support for it, so i believe including it makes sense.

Now on deciding the number of slots, i propose we do something similar to what we did in the first edition of the tournament, which is deciding on two metagames that will be included if there is enough signups (for each of them and in total, exact numbers TBD). In my opinion we only really have three possible candidates:

Doubles Ubers
GG
Gen8 National Dex AG (DLC 2)

Of course we can only pick two of them. I made a form you can find at the bottom of this post to have some idea of how much signups they could potentially get, although to be clear this will not be the only deciding factor, especially if there is a community push for an other format to be included, and the thread is still open for any points to be made. On a more minor note, if one of the first 6 formats does really badly in terms of signups, swapping it with one of these three formats should not be off the table imo, although i believe this is very unlikely to happen anyway.
 
Good morning NDOTs, here are the tiers that will be featured in NDOTSL II:

AAA
STABmons
LC
NFE
Ubers UU
BH

The following two tiers will also be included depending on the number of signups:

Doubles Ubers
GG

Signups coming soon! :pimp:
 
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