Project National Dex OU Victim of the Week - Week 17: Gengar

Kate

formerly Kaitlyn
is a Tiering Contributor
approved by Jordy
OP shamelessly stolen from this thread with some minor changes


Metagames are constantly changing, and National Dex is no exception. Each generation, we are beheld to tier staples, absolute top threats, and the like.
The concept of this project is to find countermeasures to said threats in the current National Dex metagame. Every week, I will submit a victim for you so that you can submit checks or counters to the pokemon. Then, after submissions are placed in, voters will vote which ones are the most effective in their eyes.


Rules:
1. When nominating your check/counter take a gander at The Smog:

Pokémon A checks Pokémon B if, when Pokémon A is given a free switch into Pokémon B, Pokémon A can win every time, even under the worst case scenario, without factoring in hax.

Pokémon A counters Pokémon B if Pokémon A can manually switch into Pokémon B and still win every time, even under the worst case scenario, without factoring in hax.

There are some parts of those definitions that may be confusing to the unfamiliar, so now I'm going to make sure we're all on the same page. "Hax" does not mean cheats or codes used to win. "Hax" means, loosely, things that have a chance of happening but usually don't, for example, critical hits (under most circumstances), Ice Beam freezing, and Fire Blast missing. This means that we don't take into account these types of things when we analyze if one Pokémon checks or counters another. Despite this, it's unwise to declare that one Pokémon checks another when the victorious Pokémon relies on hitting Focus Blast three times in a row, or something like that. Basically, you're often okay ignoring hax unless something that doesn't have a high chance of happening must happen in order for a Pokémon to check or counter another.

There are some things, like flinching, which you would normally consider to be hax but aren't always so. For example, Jirachi has a 60% chance to flinch a slower opponent with Iron Head, so in this case, flinching is not hax because it happens over half the time. For things such as missing or secondary effects, such as a Scald burn or Special Defense drop from Seed Flare, that have a decently high chance of happening, you need to think about them when you analyze checks or counters. Even though they might fit the standard definition of hax, they happen often enough for you to expect to see them in real situations somewhat commonly. There's no official or best guideline, but in my opinion, if some form of "hax" has a 30% chance or higher of happening, you should keep it in the back of your mind because it's not a negligible occurrence.

2. Only post Pokemon sets that are viable in National Dex. Try to stick to the mons on the Viability Rankings.
3. Reservations are allowed, however if you don't complete your post within 24 hours someone else is free to take your Pokemon.
4. You can correct people, but obviously be nice.
5. Calcs are incredibly helpful, but not necessary.
6. Give explanations. Not a thesis or anything, but more than one sentence should be fine.
 

Zneon

Ya like jazz?
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Our first victim is none other than our most potent football rabbit, Cinderace!

:ss/cinderace:

Cinderace @ Darkinium Z
Ability: Libero
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Bulk Up
- Sucker Punch
- Zen Headbutt
- High Jump Kick

One of the most dangerous sets in the metagame. With Bulk Up alongside its amazing movepool, Cinderace can easily break through its limited checks and sweep teams given the opportunity. How will you deal with the rabbit?

Submissions end on Wednesday, September 9th. Good luck!
 

Ainzcrad

The only good thing you can do is to stfu and gtfo
is a Tiering Contributor
Quagsire @ Leftovers
Ability: Unaware
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Relaxed Nature
- Scald
- Recover
- Counter
- Earthquake

Submitting this as a COUNTER. Pretty much cinderace cant beat this 1v1 without counting for hax/free hjks on it.

252 Atk Libero Cinderace Black Hole Eclipse (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 169-199 (42.8 - 50.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Libero Cinderace High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 157-186 (39.8 - 47.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

With rocks up
252 Atk Libero Cinderace Black Hole Eclipse (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 169-199 (42.8 - 50.5%) -- 2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Libero Cinderace High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 157-186 (39.8 - 47.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Only dark z can barely two hit ko with only a again slight 2% chance so without hax u should live hjk and the reason if people want to argue that rocks matter. And bulk up doesnt matter :D
 
reserving ash gren

greninja-ash.png


Greninja (M) @ Choice Specs
Ability: Battle Bond
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Hydro Pump / Surf
- Dark Pulse
- Water Shuriken
- Spikes​

Check. Greninja out speeds and OHKOs with Pump 75% if it's not a fire and always OHKOs if it is. In this case, three scenarios will play out.

1. The most common outcome

Cinderace uses Sucker Punch with Greninja taking 25.2 to 30.1 and dying to Pump.
252 Atk Cinderace Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Greninja: 72-86 (25.2 - 30.1%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Cinderace: 288-340 (95.6 - 112.9%) -- 75% chance to OHKO

2. The second most common

Cinderace uses Sucker Punch and lives Pump allowing it to use Sucker once again.

252 Atk Cinderace Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Greninja: 72-86 (25.2 - 30.1%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Cinderace: 288-340 (95.6 - 112.9%) -- 75% chance to OHKO

3. The least common

Greninja is already Battle Bond making it always OHKO with Pump.
252 Atk Cinderace Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Greninja-Ash: 72-86 (25.2 - 30.1%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja-Ash Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Cinderace: 382-451 (126.9 - 149.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
 
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WOO YES! This is one of my favourite projects. Anyway...

Submitting a counter

:ss/tangrowth:

Tangrowth @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA
Relaxed Nature
- Giga Drain
- Knock Off
- Sleep Powder
- Hidden Power [Ice]

Normally this tangrowth would get murdered by Pyro Ball but the set posted above lacks Pyro. Unlike hippowdon, tangrowth doesn't get bulked up on due to the threat of sleep powder.

+1 252 Atk Libero Cinderace Black Hole Eclipse (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tangrowth: 195-231 (48.2 - 57.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock.

Tangrowth comes in on bulk up and tanks the Z move like a god, puts it to sleep and chips it slowly.
 
Submitting Azumarill as a CHECK

Azumarill @ Normalium Z
Ability: Huge Power
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Belly Drum
- Aqua Jet
- Play Rough
- Knock Off

Azu makes a nice check to this Cinderace set, as it resists HJK and Sucker Punch and takes a modest amount of damage from even a boosted Zen Headbutt. Thanks to Z-Belly Drum, it can heal up and boost its attack in one turn, allowing for a counter sweep. +6 Aqua Jet OHKOs with rocks or a layer of spikes up 100% of the time when Cinder is at +1 Def. I say Azu is a check because on the off chance that it gets flinched while trying to set up, then Cinder can KO with any of its. Also in my experience most of them are running Gunk Shot, so you'd have to scout for that too. But still a reliable answer to that monster.
252 Atk Libero Cinderace Zen Headbutt vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 145-172 (42.3 - 50.2%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO
+1 252 Atk Libero Cinderace Zen Headbutt vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 219-258 (64 - 75.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
 

Zneon

Ya like jazz?
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Hi all, sorry about the hiatus!

Anyway, lets move onto another Pokemon shall we? That one being our favourite hermit crab:

:ss/slowbro:
Slowbro @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Scald
- Future Sight
- Teleport
- Slack Off

Slowbro is easily one of the best defensive pivots in the metagame, if not the best. With a great defensive typing, Regenerator and Teleport, Slowbro can provide amazing amounts of defensive utility and momentum to teams. How will you deal with it?

Submissions end on September 22nd. Good luck!
 
Submitting Bisharp as a check.

:sm/Bisharp:

Bisharp @ Darkinium Z/Lum Berry
Jolly/Adamant Nature
Ability: Defiant
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
- Swords Dance
- Knock Off
- Iron Head
- Sucker Punch

Bisharp is a great answer to Slowbro as it not only uses it as setup fodder, but can completely obliterate its common defensive teammates, such as Teleport Blissey as well as Corviknight/Zapdos/Mega Scizor(if utilizing a Z-Crystal). Bisharp can be brought in after a sack or by a pivot move (though Bisharp usually only sees play on HO) and proceed to setup as Slowbro tries to switch out while not fearing Future Sight. Bisharp can then proceed to punch holes in the opponent's team with Knock Off and Sucker Punch killing slower and faster targets respectively. Scald can be annoying due to status and Bisharp's meh bulk, but Lum Berry can fix this as an alternative to Darkinium but can leave Bisharp a bit weak against mons it could otherwise pressure well.
 
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Submitting Hoopa-Unbound as a check.


Hoopa-Unbound @ Choice Specs/Life Orb
Ability: Magician
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Dark Pulse
- Psyshock
- Focus Blast
- Psychic/Nasty Plot

Because of Hoopa-Unbound's massive attacking stats, as well as very powerful STAB moves in Hyperspace Fury and Dark Pulse, as well as a monstrous special defense stat that allows it to only take 22.9-27.2% from a scald, without fearing a burn if it's a special set, Hoopa-Unbound acts as a great switch-in to Slowbro, and it easily scares it off before even revealing its set, in most cases not even allowing it to use teleport to safely pivot in a teammate, as Hoopa threatens to OHKO if he stays in. And because he scares off Slowbro so immediately, something on the defending team is going to have to switch in, which is not an easy task, giving the player a very meaty punish for switching in Slowbro, as even Chansey doesn't want to switch in on a Choice Specs Psyshock, and if it's a Life Orb set utilizing nasty plot, it can tear through common defensive teammates of Slowbro with ease. Even physical Hoopa-U and mixed Hoopa's immediately threaten Slowbro, as a 252 EV Choice Banded Hyperspace Fury has an 87.5% chance to KO max HP max Def Bro then and there, and once again, most common teammates of Slowbro aren't too eager to switch in to an attack as brutally powerful as a Choice Banded Hyperspace Fury. Here are some of the calcs that show just how brutally one-sided this matchup is -
252 Atk Choice Band Hoopa-Unbound Hyperspace Fury vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 386-456 (97.9 - 115.7%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Hoopa-Unbound Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Slowbro: 576-678 (146.1 - 172%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Hoopa-Unbound Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Slowbro: 499-588 (126.6 - 149.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
4 SpA Slowbro Scald vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Hoopa-Unbound: 69-82 (22.9 - 27.2%) -- 53.8% chance to 4HKO

And a few more calcs that show how much he punishes the Slowbro user for even switching in -
252 SpA Choice Specs Hoopa-Unbound Psyshock vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 318-375 (45.2 - 53.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Choice Specs Hoopa-Unbound Dark Pulse vs. 240 HP / 0 SpD Scizor-Mega: 240-283 (70.3 - 82.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Choice Specs Hoopa-Unbound Dark Pulse vs. 248 HP / 244 SpD Scizor-Mega: 190-225 (55.3 - 65.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Choice Specs Hoopa-Unbound Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 84 SpD Corviknight: 249-294 (62.2 - 73.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Hoopa-Unbound Hyperspace Fury vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 379-447 (53.9 - 63.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Choice Band Hoopa-Unbound Hyperspace Fury vs. 240 HP / 0 Def Scizor-Mega: 213-252 (62.4 - 73.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Choice Band Hoopa-Unbound Hyperspace Fury vs. 252 HP / 172+ Def Corviknight: 213-252 (53.2 - 63%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
 
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Submitting Magnezone as THE check.

:sm/magnezone:

Magnezone @ Choice Specs
Ability: Magnet Pull
Hidden Power: Fire
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Thunderbolt
- Flash Cannon
- Volt switch
- Hidden Power [Fire]

Alot of people only view zone as a tool to trap steels with and as such look over its potential to be an actual offensive threat with its amazing 130 base special attack and hard hitting special STABs like Thunderbolt and Flash cannon.

I think Magnezone is a great Check to Slowbro because despite it not liking switching into scald, if you can manage to position yourself in a situation where your zone comes in on the Slowbro when its not clicking scald or teleport you can put yourself in a great position.

Because your opponent is forced to switch out into something that takes a Volt switch from Zone you just have to mindlessly click your move, see what your opponent goes into and switch into something that threatens whichever mon your opponent went into. Unless they have a ground type, in which case you can for sure afford to click flash cannon into the hard switch to said ground type because Slowbro is never staying in as it is too risky.

While Magnezone does not beat Slowbro and Its teammates, It beats Slowbro and pivots out into something that beats Slowbros teammates.

This was all from me, real happy victim of the week is back.
 
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Submitting Greninja-Ash as a check.

:ss/greninja-ash:

Greninja-Ash @ Choice Specs
Ability: Battle Bond
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Surf
- Dark Pulse
- Water Shuriken
- Spikes

I know Greninja was done last edition but I find there are few better answers to Slowbro than Greninja. It can threaten it out with Dark Pulse, which even in its base form is a guaranteed OHKO and threatens a transformation to its Ash form. Moreover, because of this, Greninja also can take advantage of a predicted Slowbro switch and set up Spikes, or potentially punch a hole through the next switch-in regardless. In return, Slowbro cannot really do much to it, being immune to Future Sight (which also works to its advantage in being able to be switched in to take a delayed Future Sight attack), and taking little from Ice Beam / Scald without folding to a burn. Granted, switching into status is definitely not ideal, but with sufficient prediction, Slowbro is exactly the type of Pokemon that Greninja can prey on to gain momentum.
 
Magnezone By Far out of all of them imo but Hoopa-Unbound isnt far either, Ash-Gren doesnt like to switch into T-Wave and Bisharp doesnt want to eat that or a Scald Burn, Same goes for Hoopa-Unbound if your using a physical set, special ones only fear para but out of these 4 i choose zone as the best out of them, even if it doesnt setup spikes on a free switch or setups to kill everything else like the other 2
 

Zneon

Ya like jazz?
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With the lack of votes, I'm going to simply limit this to 1 check, and since Magnezone got the most votes, the winner for this week is Saladae's Magnezone! Moving to the next victim on the table, Mega Mawile!


Mawile @ Mawilite
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 92 HP / 252 Atk / 164 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Play Rough
- Sucker Punch
- Knock Off
Mega Mawile is one of the most dangerous Pokemon in the metagame, with its ludicrous power, great coverage options and of course Swords Dance and Sucker Punch, its defensive and offensive answers are very limited, what tricks do you have for this Pokemon?

Submissions end on Tuesday 29th. Good luck!
 

Chazm

Ch
is a Live Chat Contributoris a Tiering Contributor
:ss/melmetal:

Melmetal @ Choice Band
Ability: Iron Fist
EVs: 240 HP / 252 Atk / 16 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Double Iron Bash
- Earthquake
- Thunder Punch
- Superpower

Doesn't take a damn thing from most moves and OHKOs with either Earthquake or Double Iron Bash. Pretty simple counter.
 

Piley

formerly Dragonpiley007
:sm/magnezone:

Magnezone @ Electrium Z
Ability: Magnet Pull
EVs: 80 HP / 72 Def / 216 SpA / 140 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Substitute
- Thunderbolt
- Flash Cannon
- Hidden Power [Fire]

The spread allows magnezone to always take a +2 sucker punch after rocks:

+2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mawile-Mega Sucker Punch vs. 80 HP / 72 Def Magnezone: 239-282 (79.4 - 93.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

and OHKO with ease

216+ SpA Magnezone Gigavolt Havoc (175 BP) vs. 92 HP / 0 SpD Mawile-Mega: 321-378 (121.5 - 143.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

for what its worth it can even take a fire fang after two rounds of rocks

252+ Atk Huge Power Mawile-Mega Fire Fang vs. 80 HP / 72 Def Magnezone: 224-264 (74.4 - 87.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

The speed outpaces uninvested mega scizor, uninvested heatran (although those are uncommon nowadays) and obviously the mawile spread that was posted above. If you're worried about any max speed jolly mawile with fire fang (lol) you can run 80 HP / 72 Def / 104 SpA / 252 Spe with modest which still allows you to OHKO comfortably (104+ SpA Magnezone Gigavolt Havoc (175 BP) vs. 92 HP / 0 SpD Mawile-Mega: 295-348 (111.7 - 131.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO).

Obviously mawile cannot simply knock on the switchin to put you in +2 sucker range and switch out to set up later because of magnet pull, and knock does less damage than sucker thanks to z so even if the mawile is faster it can't beat you. The only way mawile can win in this scenario is if it doubles on zone 4 times while rocks are up to put it in +2 sucker range and even then it has to win sucker punch mindgames. Submitting sub z magnezone as a counter.
 
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Aggron-Mega @ Aggronite
Ability: Filter
EVs: 248 HP / 56 Atk / 196 SpD / 8 Spe
Careful Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Heavy Slam
- Earthquake
- Toxic / Ice Punch / Fire Punch

Mega Aggron beats nearly any non-Focus Punch Mega Mawile in the 1v1 (barring stuff like SD Brick Break if you switch in on the SD), making it a decent pick for (Semi)Stall and BO teams that need an answer to one of the scariest wallbreakers in the game.

+2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mawile-Mega Sucker Punch vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Aggron-Mega: 137-162 (39.9 - 47.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

0 Atk Aggron-Mega Heavy Slam (120 BP) vs. 92 HP / 0 Def Mawile-Mega: 144-169 (54.5 - 64%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

0 Atk Aggron-Mega Earthquake vs. 92 HP / 0 Def Mawile-Mega: 158-188 (59.8 - 71.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

FYI once Body Press Aggron comes out with the DLC (well, hopefully), Mega Aggron will absolutely want to run it as it covers Ferrothorn, (Mega) Tyranitar, Mega Gyarados, Mega Lopunny, Bisharp, Kartana, Mamoswine, and other stuff.
 
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