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Ubers National Dex Ubers Metagame Discussion (active survey @ post #339)
- Thread starter entrocefalo
- Start date
Grim is gonna get one tapped by Dialga or Xerneas. Lugia is big boi. Deoxys-s is a suicide lead.(as far as I know) isn't that good in NDUbers.
definitely isn't good in NDUbers. And since when does
run Tera Electric?
Since when isor :deoxys-s:? Also I haven't tried
Survey results
Hi! Thanks again to everyone who participated in the survey. We received a total of 33 votes with 14 people that reached the threshold to be eligible as qualified voters. Here are the results:
- Average: 7.75 and 6.5 respectively. 1 means greatly dislike (very unbalanced) and 10 represents very enjoyable (very balanced). We have observed a decrease in the overall averages compared to the previous survey here, where both answers averaged 8. Consequently, the need for action has been growing over time.
Terastallization
- Average: 4.18 and 3.85 for what regards Terastallization. The numbers seem to indicate a significant dissatisfaction with the mechanics of the current generation.
Xerneas
- Average: 4.09 and 4.28. While still being very low, we denote a slight increase with respect to the last survey (namely 3.9 and 3.72).
Zygarde-C
- Average: 5.78 and 5.93. Zygarde's average surpasses 5, highlighting the importance of prioritizing the two previous responses.
Thanks for your dedication! If you have any questions feel free to ask in the National Dex Ubers discord here, in this thread, or PM me or Weirdhamster.
Tahz
Banned deucer.
WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
Okay, after doing a ton of C&C work for this metagame, I've come to a realization:
is unhealthy.
Why? Everyone is well aware of Geomancy, coverage options to hit everything and its only limitations really are potential limitations of Terastallizing and not having the moveslots to cover everything, but the only two legitimately viable (sorry
pink blob) checks to it are 
and , and basically every single viable team that isn't hyper offense (which in itself has its own issues) requires having at least one of those two to be good, and even then those two can be circumvented, namely in itself is required to check a good portion of the metagame, and given it has no reliable recovery it's not too difficult to overwhelm long term, and just dies to anything involving Teras unless it Terastallizes itself, which is just a mind game where 
is actively on an advantage, as it can just safely switch to something else over using Geomancy or try to fish for a paralysis with Thunder, Z-Geomancy + Ingrain sets also just invalidate it as a check.
As mentioned before, hyper offense teams do "check" Xerneas, but basically rely on applying offensive pressure to prevent it from using Geomancy without becoming easy to revenge kill by priority, although sets involving Tera Ghost or screens support aren't unheard of.
Actually, I'll go over the rest of so-called counterplay in the provided list here:
: Mostly limited to stall (and are quite niche otherwise), Ferro also doesn't do much back especially against Substitute variants.
: Substitute being up means it's a dead slot, and it can't OHKO Xerneas even after the chip of doing a Substitute, so at best it's a trade where Xerneas actively has the advantage.
: Niche in general, relegated to matchup-fishy Trick Room teams (a subset of offense BTW) and also lacks reliable recovery, Mag itself falls as a soft-check as all it wants to do here is set TR and pivot to a breaker like 
, 
or 
, as Fleur Cannon can't 2HKO after Geomancy, and if you're a mad lad running Heart Swap there's a blatant opportunity cost. There's also the matter of Tera Electric Thunder after Geomancy OHKOing after Stealth Rock, lol.
: Why is this thing here? It's not even ranked on the VR nor tiered as Uber, Bullet Punch may seem intuitive, but Tera Electric flips the match-up and it's just the one being KOed instead.
: Limited to act as a revenge killer as +2 Moonblast after Stealth Rock just OHKOes (with it being a roll otherwise), and even then Extreme Speed can only 2HKO with some chip after Tera Normal, so in the best case scenario left a mark on your team if you have to rely on the llama to finish it off, and that's ignoring Substitute preventing the llama from properly nuking the deer if it's up.
: This is quite an opportunity cost as an Arceus forme as it loses to a ton of top threats like , 
, 
, 
, 
and 
, if it wasn't for I'd rather just use 
, which speaks by itself.
: As it does not invest on bulk at all, Xerneas can overwhelm it even more easily than , as +2 Tera Electric Thunder just OHKOs even without entry hazards. With Intrepid Sword intact, Play Rough can OHKO Xerneas after Stealth Rock (otherwise being a very low roll), but given the above it's not a consistent answer beyond offense teams when it can just keep applying offensive pressure alongside the rest of its team.
: Good option on paper but given the raise of Tera Electric , it's way more of a soft check these days, and +2 Tera Electric Thunder just OHKOes unless it's specially defensive, which does quite little besides checking and maybe .
Notice a pattern? Xerneas is mainly held back by the accuracy of Thunder to circumvent most of its counterplay, which in itself isn't competitive as the match is decided a good amount of the time on if it hits, with that being actively on Xerneas's favor, and the above is ignoring that Xerneas has teammates to circumvent the stuff that at this point is "meant" to lose to, this is one of those mons that can pick its counterplay and not in a good way.
I may as well do comments on the other stuff in the survey:
: With 
gone it's no longer forced to run Tera Fairy, and it sure benefits from that, between acting as a physical with the obscene bulk when you think you're about to KO it, let alone having a surprisingly good movepool to complement the fact it only needs one offensive move as it hits the entire meta but Terastallized Grass-types at least neutrally, it's a quite strong mon, but what arguably breaks it in particular alongside those traits is Glare, as it can cripple anything whatsoever, with the only real immunities (Electric-types) being weak to its own STAB move, and so it can try to fish for multiple paralysis-forced passivity turns to break past some of its checks, or act as a wincon itself with Coil or Dragon Dance.
I wouldn't oppose some tiering action to this mon as you can no longer consistently force it out with Ice coverage.
: Teras have definitely rendered a good chunk of stuff that'd otherwise be fine into a thin line at best, however, Teras were already suspected and deemed fine to stay, and I don't think the Stellar-type has really changed that status quo, with the main abuser of that being either way.
The Ubers tiering policy does favor complex bans over doing "collateral damage", so there's also a possibility the Pokemon above are complex banned as being unable to Terastallize, but I don't think everyone would be comfortable with that these days.
is unhealthy.Why? Everyone is well aware of Geomancy, coverage options to hit everything and its only limitations really are potential limitations of Terastallizing and not having the moveslots to cover everything, but the only two legitimately viable (sorry
pink blob) checks to it are and , and basically every single viable team that isn't hyper offense (which in itself has its own issues) requires having at least one of those two to be good, and even then those two can be circumvented, namely in itself is required to check a good portion of the metagame, and given it has no reliable recovery it's not too difficult to overwhelm long term, and just dies to anything involving Teras unless it Terastallizes itself, which is just a mind game where is actively on an advantage, as it can just safely switch to something else over using Geomancy or try to fish for a paralysis with Thunder, Z-Geomancy + Ingrain sets also just invalidate it as a check.As mentioned before, hyper offense teams do "check" Xerneas, but basically rely on applying offensive pressure to prevent it from using Geomancy without becoming easy to revenge kill by priority, although sets involving Tera Ghost or screens support aren't unheard of.
Actually, I'll go over the rest of so-called counterplay in the provided list here:
: Mostly limited to stall (and are quite niche otherwise), Ferro also doesn't do much back especially against Substitute variants.: Substitute being up means it's a dead slot, and it can't OHKO Xerneas even after the chip of doing a Substitute, so at best it's a trade where Xerneas actively has the advantage.: Niche in general, relegated to matchup-fishy Trick Room teams (a subset of offense BTW) and also lacks reliable recovery, Mag itself falls as a soft-check as all it wants to do here is set TR and pivot to a breaker like , or , as Fleur Cannon can't 2HKO after Geomancy, and if you're a mad lad running Heart Swap there's a blatant opportunity cost. There's also the matter of Tera Electric Thunder after Geomancy OHKOing after Stealth Rock, lol.: Why is this thing here? It's not even ranked on the VR nor tiered as Uber, Bullet Punch may seem intuitive, but Tera Electric flips the match-up and it's just the one being KOed instead.: Limited to act as a revenge killer as +2 Moonblast after Stealth Rock just OHKOes (with it being a roll otherwise), and even then Extreme Speed can only 2HKO with some chip after Tera Normal, so in the best case scenario left a mark on your team if you have to rely on the llama to finish it off, and that's ignoring Substitute preventing the llama from properly nuking the deer if it's up.: This is quite an opportunity cost as an Arceus forme as it loses to a ton of top threats like , , , , and , if it wasn't for I'd rather just use , which speaks by itself.: As it does not invest on bulk at all, Xerneas can overwhelm it even more easily than , as +2 Tera Electric Thunder just OHKOs even without entry hazards. With Intrepid Sword intact, Play Rough can OHKO Xerneas after Stealth Rock (otherwise being a very low roll), but given the above it's not a consistent answer beyond offense teams when it can just keep applying offensive pressure alongside the rest of its team.: Good option on paper but given the raise of Tera Electric , it's way more of a soft check these days, and +2 Tera Electric Thunder just OHKOes unless it's specially defensive, which does quite little besides checking and maybe .Notice a pattern? Xerneas is mainly held back by the accuracy of Thunder to circumvent most of its counterplay, which in itself isn't competitive as the match is decided a good amount of the time on if it hits, with that being actively on Xerneas's favor, and the above is ignoring that Xerneas has teammates to circumvent the stuff that at this point is "meant" to lose to, this is one of those mons that can pick its counterplay and not in a good way.
I may as well do comments on the other stuff in the survey:
: With gone it's no longer forced to run Tera Fairy, and it sure benefits from that, between acting as a physical with the obscene bulk when you think you're about to KO it, let alone having a surprisingly good movepool to complement the fact it only needs one offensive move as it hits the entire meta but Terastallized Grass-types at least neutrally, it's a quite strong mon, but what arguably breaks it in particular alongside those traits is Glare, as it can cripple anything whatsoever, with the only real immunities (Electric-types) being weak to its own STAB move, and so it can try to fish for multiple paralysis-forced passivity turns to break past some of its checks, or act as a wincon itself with Coil or Dragon Dance.I wouldn't oppose some tiering action to this mon as you can no longer consistently force it out with Ice coverage.
either way.The Ubers tiering policy does favor complex bans over doing "collateral damage", so there's also a possibility the Pokemon above are complex banned as being unable to Terastallize, but I don't think everyone would be comfortable with that these days.
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I would probably say if making xerneas unable to tera is a tabled option, it would be supported by vast majority of the playerbase, alongside with zygarde and shedinja (and unban it afterwards).: Teras have definitely rendered a good chunk of stuff that'd otherwise be fine into a thin line at best, however, Teras were already suspected and deemed fine to stay, and I don't think the Stellar-type has really changed that status quo, with the main abuser of that being
The Ubers tiering policy does favor complex bans over doing "collateral damage", so there's also a possibility the Pokemon above are complex banned as being unable to Terastallize, but I don't think everyone would be comfortable with that these days.
But NO, it just won't happen, and its clearly not because the public don't like it.
Okay, after doing a ton of C&C work for this metagame, I've come to a realization:
Why? Everyone is well aware of Geomancy, coverage options to hit everything and its only limitations really are potential limitations of Terastallizing and not having the moveslots to cover everything, but the only two legitimately viable (sorry
As mentioned before, hyper offense teams do "check" Xerneas, but basically rely on applying offensive pressure to prevent it from using Geomancy without becoming easy to revenge kill by priority, although sets involving Tera Ghost or screens support aren't unheard of.
Actually, I'll go over the rest of so-called counterplay in the provided list here:
View attachment 607382
Notice a pattern? Xerneas is mainly held back by the accuracy of Thunder to circumvent most of its counterplay, which in itself isn't competitive as the match is decided a good amount of the time on if it hits, with that being actively on Xerneas's favor, and the above is ignoring that Xerneas has teammates to circumvent the stuff that at this point is "meant" to lose to, this is one of those mons that can pick its counterplay and not in a good way.
I may as well do comments on the other stuff in the survey:
I wouldn't oppose some tiering action to this mon as you can no longer consistently force it out with Ice coverage.
View attachment 607381: Teras have definitely rendered a good chunk of stuff that'd otherwise be fine into a thin line at best, however, Teras were already suspected and deemed fine to stay, and I don't think the Stellar-type has really changed that status quo, with the main abuser of that being
The Ubers tiering policy does favor complex bans over doing "collateral damage", so there's also a possibility the Pokemon above are complex banned as being unable to Terastallize, but I don't think everyone would be comfortable with that these days.
This is a great post and I agree with most of what you've written. Also thank you for your work in C&C. I'm really looking forward to having fleshed out strategy dex pages for the tier and that wouldn't be possible without the time and effort put in by yourself and others.
I wrote a fair bit aboutWhy? Everyone is well aware of Geomancy, coverage options to hit everything and its only limitations really are potential limitations of Terastallizing and not having the moveslots to cover everything, but the only two legitimately viable (sorry
the other week and at times will probably pull some stuff from those posts which can be found in the previous page of this thread. Where we disagree is that I believe is truly the only good check. Ingrain certainly does invalidate it and R8 is a big fan, but at least presently, it is not common and does come with an opportunity cost in the form of valuable coverage. does live any attack and can phase it. +2 Moonblast maxes at 85% which does give a bit of wiggleroom at least. The tera mindgames as you say certainly do come into play, though that speaks to bigger issues with tera itself. I agree that the user is at an advantage as they are rarely obgligated to geomancy and can just chuck out an attack and set up later, something a lot of users are surprisingly reluctant to do. set in my opinion. HP Rock is a coinflip to OHKO from full and is guarenteeed easily by something as simple as toxicing it. It is also not tera reliant, particularly in comparison to . This flexibility allows it slot into a lot more teams. For example it is a fantastic partner for . It also entirely invalidates even defensive entirely as a check should it chose to tera as is taking 6.25% on switchin.On that note,
is a defensive check by the flimsiest of margins. In Smog 32 a check is defined as " Pokémon A checks Pokémon B if, when Pokémon A is given a free switch into Pokémon B, Pokémon A can win every time, even under the worst case scenario, without factoring in hax." Defensive can only consistently do this if it runs roar. Though this is a viable option, it is hard to fit for most teams and requires giving up a generally more useful move. Offensive does revenge it, but requires chip since blades tops out at 74% and heat crash does not OHKO even from 252+. Defensive
only wins the 1v1 under certain conditions with those being is loses. Since cleanly (well 99.6% of the time) 2hkos with +2 moonblast, must be able to OHKO back. It doesn't do this even if has had its sub broken and taken rocks chip.So to actually answer
:a) Can't freely switch in
b) Essentially requires
to have and use c) Still has to actually hit precipice blades
d) Requires
to be heavily chipped if it hasn't e) Has to be fairly healthy in the first place
You touch on the last point in your post and it is perhaps the most important. If you arn't running HO,
is not likely to be in great condition by the time comes out due to needing to do things such as setting hazards and answering other mons. Sure one can invest beyond the baseline of 204 SpD, but that comes with its own issues such as being OHKO'd by +1 EQ and being 2HKO'd by 
. is a good check if it is not running .
is a good set and does invalidate but it comes with lots of drawbacks and isn't something that moves the needle for me. The inability to tera, lack of coverage, and the free turn it provides to switch to counterplay prevent it rising to the unhealthy level of standard geomancy sets even if it can frequently end the game on the spot. This hasn't been updated since April when the tier was in its infancy and I would not be surprised if it was largely copy and pasted from previous generations of ubers with new mons added. As you ask in your post, why is
here? I can't think of another reason why it would be.
checking it is questionable in the first place. As you've mentioned, it struggles immensely with substitute, but more importantly it doesn't really do anything to other maybe annoy it slightly or leech it and switch to teammate which can actually handle it. Most sets either run focus blast and / or a tera which resists gyro ball and this was the case even in April. On another note, gyro ball is as close to an unviable move on that still has some justification for being used and that is being generous. struggles fit moves beyond its standard four and knock off or thunder wave are far more useful than gyro ball. is legitmately probably the best answer we have (I'm not going to pretend psyshock is real). The problem is, well, it is . You can count on a single hand the number of teams it fits on. Agreed. Though it works a bit better in game. It does revenge
if it has taken any chip or hazard damage before subbing. If is your counterplay you are saccing something to allow it to come in and that should generally mean you can prevent it from having a sub up and being out of range in the process. Maybe I'm out of date, but answering
is a massive portion of why is even viable in the first place. It compresses a and 
check for fat balance builds which is a valuable niche. It is dogshit outside of that role, but that compression is invaluable for those types of squads. It is pretty far down the list of TR setters and really its selling point is its 
matchup which otherwise destroys most TR teams.True, but
is most a HO mon anyways which is likely going to leave :xerneas in espeed range as it sets up anyways. It is surprising to not see on the list as the interaction is similar, ableit from a lower in in exchange for not thudding into If
is . Yeah defensive
is mid as hell and is a / check that can't beat / due to having immense difficulty in fitting EQ. Both DD sets, 
and defensive, do a decent job checking it. IMO, most teams these days that run defensive can replace it with defensive DD (same evs but 36 speed) and would be improved. It actually checks the things that is supposed to for the most part and can will ocassionally sweep. I.e. it uses as setup fodder as it will likely eventually miss a fire blast and that lets it get a 2nd DD. I somewhat agree though I'd replace thunder with focus blast.
is 
taken to a new level. The most pressing issue has is how the two flex slots it has matches up into your team. can't blow past every team with those two slots, but it sure as hell will blow past most of them. This is what makes it so hard to answer defensively. You have that lives any hit full and can phase, but even that depends on not having ingrain and actually using geomancy. Plus you still have 5 other mons to deal with. Building a varied 'proof' that is actually good is near if not impossible barring maybe a couple of stalls. You can't reasonably answer all of HP rock, sub, ingrain, focus blast, thunderbolt, and some other move i'm forgetting I don't think
I wouldn't oppose some tiering action to this mon as you can no longer consistently force it out with Ice coverage.
is banworthy even in a tera meta. I'd be fine with a suspect though I'd likely opt not to ban it. A mon of 's caliber in any tier requires prep in the teambuilder and every style of team has a plethora of options at their disposal for doing so without compromising matchups into other threats. Occasionally will win matchups it really has no business winning via obscene para hax, but this is not something that happens with near enough consistency to cross the threshold of banworthy for me. Stall blanks it entirely though a perfectly played dragon tail
can a slight headache. Most often it is just absorbing status and weak hits while its teammates handle the breaking. Balance/BO can run mons such as Taunt, CM, 
, , , (works best as a pivot is also a bit of a tera hog. This isn't a major issue for it due to how effectively it leverages tera, but it often requires tera to reach its full potential. This can be a bit of an issue when other mons need to tera to check threats such as to phase .Frustratingly often I'll see people complain about
being banworthy and after showing their team there is a singular mon that checks when healthy such as or offensive that lose the ability to do so when paralyzed. They'll moan about how 
just stayed in and walls the rest of the team. It is always is broken and never any introspection about what could be changed with the team to address the matchup with this crowd.Unrelated and 100% not suspectworthy,
is a significantly larger headache to play against than . I agree that stellar has not in anyway moved the needle with tera.: Teras have definitely rendered a good chunk of stuff that'd otherwise be fine into a thin line at best, however, Teras were already suspected and deemed fine to stay, and I don't think the Stellar-type has really changed that status quo, with the main abuser of that being
The Ubers tiering policy does favor complex bans over doing "collateral damage", so there's also a possibility the Pokemon above are complex banned as being unable to Terastallize, but I don't think everyone would be comfortable with that these days.
and sometimes run it and that is about it. While a complex ban surrounding tera may fall in line with policy it is something I am staunchly opposed even if the options are between keeping tera and a complex ban. I've come around to liking tera a lot more since the suspect and am open to the possibility that it may be balanced enough to keep around if leaves but that is a conversation to be had when or if the time comes. is the only other mon that makes me go fuck this mechanic it needs to go. Everything else feels 'honest' enough to keep tera around (if the primals could still tera I'd 100% want it gone) even if I think the tier would likely be more competitive without it. The tera should be present in the tier or it shouldn't and the middleground of a tera list a la SS Ubers dynamax is the wrong way to go. For what its worth, I do not want unbanned if tera is axed.Attachments
This and the NDUbers Good Cores pages need updating anyways. Like
for Xerneas, 
for Zygarde and UNecro, even 
for Priority or 
as Anti-Hazard support; they're all outdated/irrelevant nowadays.
Tahz
Banned deucer.
Zygarde isn't that broken, zacian would make sense tho
Banning Tera: Who Loses and Who Wins?
With all the discussion and dissatisfaction with tera and Xerneas lately, I wanted to sort the tier staples on whether or not they lose or gain more from a potential ban of Terastalization. This is a neutral perspective; I'm not trying to argue that the changes that would happen to each of these Pokemon's viabilities are good or bad for the tier. Whether something "wins" or "loses" is based on if I think their viability on the VR would go up or down if/when Tera is banned. None of the rankings are in any particular order, in the text post or the tier list graphic.
Losers
Marshadow exclusively uses Tera offensively with Tera Ghost or Stellar. Because of its perfect neutral STAB combo, defensive Tera to mitigate damage from Marshadow is not usually chosen and most defensive Tera types are instead chosen for other wallbreakers like Zacian, Xerneas, and Primal Groudon + Kyogre. As a result, Marshadow currently greatly enjoys Tera for the boost it gets to its offenses, with Tera Ghost Choice Band Poltergeist being one of the most destructive attacks in the tier. In short, Marshadow being able to offensively Tera is almost exclusively a benefit to it because very few Pokemon run defensive Tera to check it. Losing offensive Tera would hurt Marshadow greatly, but it would still manage to be strong in the tier regardless.
Xerneas is arguably the most broken abuser of Tera, and has the most to lose from it being banned. Xerneas benefits greatly both offensively and defensively from its choices of Tera: Electric offers a Steel resistance and paralysis immunity plus a useful power boost to Thunderbolt/Thunder, Steel offers several useful resistances as well as an immunity to Eternatus' poison attacks, and Fighting offers STAB on Focus Blast which allows Xerneas to power through checks like Zacian and Necrozma-Dusk Mane after Geomancy. Losing all of these options would knock Xerneas down several pegs, mostly through neutering its offensive capability. Xerneas would no longer have any way to OHKO Groudon, Zacian, or NDM barring crits. This loss of variance would make it much easier to revenge kill and greatly limit the amount of KOs it can take in an average match. One saving grace is that I believe Primal Kyogre would become much better in a tera-less metagame (explained later), and Xerneas acts and would still act as a great revenge killer after Kyogre takes a KO with the free Geomancy opportunity it gets.
Arguably the best user of defensive Tera in the game, running three main types (Poison, Fairy, and Water) that cover each others weaknesses and aren't easily guessable from team preview. Not being able to Tera would turn Xerneas and Kyogre into consistent checks to it, where currently it has the means to turn the tables on them with Glare and tera Poison/Water respectively.
Pretty simple: would no longer be able to Tera out of its weaknesses to Water, Electric, and Rock to prevent being OHKO'd by Groudon, Kyogre, Marshadow, Ultra Necrozma, Xerneas, Meteor Beam Eternatus, or +3 Zacian. Other than Xerneas, none of the Pokemon listed use Tera to beat Ho-Oh, making the loss of Tera more of a detriment to Ho-Oh than a benefit.
Also pretty simple, all of their weaknesses become permanent rather than providing the Arceus player the choice to mitigate them with defensive Tera. Darkceus will always be weak to Low Kick and Moonblast rather than being able to turn those into resistances with tera Poison. Same principle applies to Arceus-Poison with its Psychic and Ground weaknesses and Groundceus with its Water weakness. Groundceus is definitely hurt the least of the three here, but it also would lose out on the ability to hit post-Tera Yveltal with its Judgment.
Without Tera Ghost, Extreme Killer would become almost useless as long as Marshadow is alive. It would have to bring back the USUM Ubers set of Chople Berry if it wants to survive Low Kick, which comes with the opportunity cost of not running an offense boosting item like Life Orb or Silk Scarf. Additionally, no tera Ghost means Arceus can't predict and OHKO Marshadow on the switch with Shadow Claw. Banning Tera also removes the option of Tera Normal EKiller, one of the most brutal sets in the game. EKiller's standard Normal/Ground/Ghost coverage works in the tier in a very particular way to make most defensive Tera options not very useful against it (because Extreme Speed hits nothing supereffectively, very few Pokemon choose tera Ghost/Steel specifically for it). As such, Arceus stands to lose a massive amount if Tera is banned.
Losing Tera Ground/Fighting makes Zacian almost completely useless against Primal Groudon. Without Tera Blast Ground, Zacian would have no way of hitting various tier staples supereffectively: Groudon, Eternatus, tera Electric or Steel Xerneas, Necrozma-Dusk Mane, and other Zacian. Non-stab Close Combat just isn't good enough at damaging these targets. Zacian also loses out on the free turn it can get by using its Tera defensively in front of Groudon to survive a supereffective Fire or Ground attack and clicking Swords Dance. Zacian might just be hurt even more than Xerneas if Tera is banned.
Can't ever remove its debilitating 4x weaknesses to two of the most common forms of priority in the tier. Like Marshadow, the lack of resistances to Ghost STAB means that it doesn't benefit much from other Pokemon losing the option of defensive Tera. Also loses out on the option of Tera Fairy Moonblast to power through Yveltal or Arceus-Dark.
Can no longer boost and do massive damage to neutral targets like Ho-Oh and Groudon with Tera Dark, nor opt out of its Stealth Rock weakness. Zacian could no longer Tera out of its Dark resistance to allow Sucker Punch to revenge kill. Defensive Yveltal loses the option of tera types to allow it resistances to Groudon or Xerneas' attacks. The option of other Pokemon's defensive Tera Fairy being lost helps Yveltal slightly. Yveltal still doesn't lose too much compared to other members of the losers category.
Can't Tera out of its horrible defensive typing or boost Glacial Lance with Tera Ice. Still has amazing tools at its disposal, but loses more than it gains from Tera being banned.
Magearna's viability is completely tied to how common Xerneas is. Tera being banned would slash Xern's viability and necessity to check, so Mag would drop in usage as well.
Losing out on the boost to its Steel STAB would greatly damage Melmetal. It would lose out on so many valuable KO ranges, like 2HKOing resists like Ho-Oh, Necrozma-Dusk Mane, and offensive Primal Groudon. Losing damage output under Trick Room would greatly hurt the viability of hard TR teams and possibly put them out of the meta entirely.
Loses out on tera Psychic to make Psycho Boost do absurd damage, Ghost for the Extreme Speed immunity + Shadow Ball boost, or Normal for the immunity to Shadow Sneak. Also loses out on being able to drop Zacian/NDM with Psycho Boost if either terastalized previously. Gains almost nothing in return, but is less Tera dependent than a lot of others in the losers category so it's hurt comparatively less.
Loses out on the ability to tera Steel or Poison and become very difficult to remove with its Ground immunity. Isn't hurt much compared to the other members of the losers category.
I don't see Shuckle much on ladder but on my HO team, defensive tera Water against Groudon, Zacian, and Melmetal was very important for it to function as a lead in some games. Often it made the difference in getting all of rocks, webs, and encore up vs. only webs.
Neutral
I think that Eternatus losing the option of defensive Tera is equally made up for other Pokemon losing their Tera options. NDM or Zacian can no longer Tera out of their Fire weaknesses, Ho-Oh out of its Rock weakness, Xerneas out of its Poison weakness, or Rayquaza out of its Dragon weakness. This comes at the cost of being forced to switch out against full health Primal Groudon, no longer being able to defensively tera out of Eternatus' Ground weakness or out-damage it with Specs Tera Dragon Dynamax Cannon/Draco Meteor.
Mostly just act as sash suicide leads so Tera affects them very little. Maybe slight winners because there are fewer mons who can Tera out of Stealth Rock weakness/Toxic Spikes susceptibility, but I don't think that would swing either much forward in the meta.
Originally, this was just about Mega Salamence before realizing that Mewtwo-Y is in the exact same situation. On paper, they both should benefit from others losing defensive Tera since they don't benefit from Tera directly at all. However, very few defensive Teras are used to resist Flying or Psychic STAB, with the exception of the occasional Tera Steel Xerneas or Giratina. The main reason that they are in the neutral rather than winners category is because no more Tera would result in defensive checks like NDM and Zacian always keeping their original typing. The opportunity to force NDM to tera Water early in the game, losing its 4x Psychic resist and allowing +2 Psystrike to KO it would no longer exist. Same principle applies with Tera Ground/Fighting Zacian being forced to lose its resistances to those two types (although this only affects Salamence sets not running Earthquake).
Winners
Lumping these three together because they all would benefit in the same way. Not being able to Tera themselves, defensive Tera checks the wallbreaking abilities of these three by increasing the variance in any given turn. In a Groudon vs. Ho-Oh scenario, the Ho-Oh user has three options: reading Stone Edge and going tera Grass, reading their prediction of tera Grass and staying Fire/Flying, or switching out. Without the option of defensive Tera, this turns into a mere 50/50 of switching out or being dropped by Stone Edge, which is overall better for the Groudon player. The same scenario applies with Zygarde/Eternatus/Calyrex-Ice in against Kyogre or Zacian in against EQ Ultra Necrozma. Ultra Necrozma also benefits from Marshadow losing Tera Ghost/Stellar and thus any guaranteed OHKO scenarios with Shadow Sneak at full health (Jolly CB Shadow Sneak maxes out at a 25% chance).
No more tera Water -> natural Water resistances required to not get decimated by Kyogre -> Arceus-Water stocks up greatly
Almost exclusively runs Dragonium Z so it benefits a decent amount from Zacian, Ho-Oh, Zygarde, etc. losing defensive Tera while losing nothing itself. Instead of having to worry about opponents switching or popping a defensive Tera, Zekrom only has to consider the former. Its perfect neutral STAB coverage means it doesn't face the same issue that Mega Salamence and Mewtwo-Y do. Still doesn't patch up its issues with power or speed, but no tera would do a decent amount to help it out in matches and in the teambuilder.
The loss of Dondozo being able to defensively tera is made up for by opposing Xerneas and Yveltal no longer being able to offensively tera to hit it harder. Xerneas needs Grass Knot to reliably OHKO without the option of Tera Electric Thunderbolt and Yveltal can't 2HKO with Dark Pulse anymore. Benefits slightly from the absence of Tera Water mons to resist Liquidation/Wave Crash + Avalanche.
Conclusion
I'm on the fence for whether or not banning Tera would make a better or worse metagame. Tera's existence helps the tier handle Primal Groudon, who got amazing new moves in Generations 8 and 9 in the form of Heat Crash, Spikes, and Will O' Wisp. A tera ban would likely make the tier slightly more diverse and certainly nerf the Pokemon who've consistently had complaints about them since the tier's establishment (Zacian, Zygarde-C, and Xerneas). I think that a no-Tera tournament should be held to see how different the meta ends up being and if players prefer it before a formal suspect test takes place. Thank you for reading this. Any responses/commentary would be appreciated.
With all the discussion and dissatisfaction with tera and Xerneas lately, I wanted to sort the tier staples on whether or not they lose or gain more from a potential ban of Terastalization. This is a neutral perspective; I'm not trying to argue that the changes that would happen to each of these Pokemon's viabilities are good or bad for the tier. Whether something "wins" or "loses" is based on if I think their viability on the VR would go up or down if/when Tera is banned. None of the rankings are in any particular order, in the text post or the tier list graphic.
Losers
Marshadow exclusively uses Tera offensively with Tera Ghost or Stellar. Because of its perfect neutral STAB combo, defensive Tera to mitigate damage from Marshadow is not usually chosen and most defensive Tera types are instead chosen for other wallbreakers like Zacian, Xerneas, and Primal Groudon + Kyogre. As a result, Marshadow currently greatly enjoys Tera for the boost it gets to its offenses, with Tera Ghost Choice Band Poltergeist being one of the most destructive attacks in the tier. In short, Marshadow being able to offensively Tera is almost exclusively a benefit to it because very few Pokemon run defensive Tera to check it. Losing offensive Tera would hurt Marshadow greatly, but it would still manage to be strong in the tier regardless.
Xerneas is arguably the most broken abuser of Tera, and has the most to lose from it being banned. Xerneas benefits greatly both offensively and defensively from its choices of Tera: Electric offers a Steel resistance and paralysis immunity plus a useful power boost to Thunderbolt/Thunder, Steel offers several useful resistances as well as an immunity to Eternatus' poison attacks, and Fighting offers STAB on Focus Blast which allows Xerneas to power through checks like Zacian and Necrozma-Dusk Mane after Geomancy. Losing all of these options would knock Xerneas down several pegs, mostly through neutering its offensive capability. Xerneas would no longer have any way to OHKO Groudon, Zacian, or NDM barring crits. This loss of variance would make it much easier to revenge kill and greatly limit the amount of KOs it can take in an average match. One saving grace is that I believe Primal Kyogre would become much better in a tera-less metagame (explained later), and Xerneas acts and would still act as a great revenge killer after Kyogre takes a KO with the free Geomancy opportunity it gets.
Arguably the best user of defensive Tera in the game, running three main types (Poison, Fairy, and Water) that cover each others weaknesses and aren't easily guessable from team preview. Not being able to Tera would turn Xerneas and Kyogre into consistent checks to it, where currently it has the means to turn the tables on them with Glare and tera Poison/Water respectively.
Pretty simple: would no longer be able to Tera out of its weaknesses to Water, Electric, and Rock to prevent being OHKO'd by Groudon, Kyogre, Marshadow, Ultra Necrozma, Xerneas, Meteor Beam Eternatus, or +3 Zacian. Other than Xerneas, none of the Pokemon listed use Tera to beat Ho-Oh, making the loss of Tera more of a detriment to Ho-Oh than a benefit.
Also pretty simple, all of their weaknesses become permanent rather than providing the Arceus player the choice to mitigate them with defensive Tera. Darkceus will always be weak to Low Kick and Moonblast rather than being able to turn those into resistances with tera Poison. Same principle applies to Arceus-Poison with its Psychic and Ground weaknesses and Groundceus with its Water weakness. Groundceus is definitely hurt the least of the three here, but it also would lose out on the ability to hit post-Tera Yveltal with its Judgment.
Without Tera Ghost, Extreme Killer would become almost useless as long as Marshadow is alive. It would have to bring back the USUM Ubers set of Chople Berry if it wants to survive Low Kick, which comes with the opportunity cost of not running an offense boosting item like Life Orb or Silk Scarf. Additionally, no tera Ghost means Arceus can't predict and OHKO Marshadow on the switch with Shadow Claw. Banning Tera also removes the option of Tera Normal EKiller, one of the most brutal sets in the game. EKiller's standard Normal/Ground/Ghost coverage works in the tier in a very particular way to make most defensive Tera options not very useful against it (because Extreme Speed hits nothing supereffectively, very few Pokemon choose tera Ghost/Steel specifically for it). As such, Arceus stands to lose a massive amount if Tera is banned.
Losing Tera Ground/Fighting makes Zacian almost completely useless against Primal Groudon. Without Tera Blast Ground, Zacian would have no way of hitting various tier staples supereffectively: Groudon, Eternatus, tera Electric or Steel Xerneas, Necrozma-Dusk Mane, and other Zacian. Non-stab Close Combat just isn't good enough at damaging these targets. Zacian also loses out on the free turn it can get by using its Tera defensively in front of Groudon to survive a supereffective Fire or Ground attack and clicking Swords Dance. Zacian might just be hurt even more than Xerneas if Tera is banned.
Can't ever remove its debilitating 4x weaknesses to two of the most common forms of priority in the tier. Like Marshadow, the lack of resistances to Ghost STAB means that it doesn't benefit much from other Pokemon losing the option of defensive Tera. Also loses out on the option of Tera Fairy Moonblast to power through Yveltal or Arceus-Dark.
Can no longer boost and do massive damage to neutral targets like Ho-Oh and Groudon with Tera Dark, nor opt out of its Stealth Rock weakness. Zacian could no longer Tera out of its Dark resistance to allow Sucker Punch to revenge kill. Defensive Yveltal loses the option of tera types to allow it resistances to Groudon or Xerneas' attacks. The option of other Pokemon's defensive Tera Fairy being lost helps Yveltal slightly. Yveltal still doesn't lose too much compared to other members of the losers category.
Can't Tera out of its horrible defensive typing or boost Glacial Lance with Tera Ice. Still has amazing tools at its disposal, but loses more than it gains from Tera being banned.
Magearna's viability is completely tied to how common Xerneas is. Tera being banned would slash Xern's viability and necessity to check, so Mag would drop in usage as well.
Losing out on the boost to its Steel STAB would greatly damage Melmetal. It would lose out on so many valuable KO ranges, like 2HKOing resists like Ho-Oh, Necrozma-Dusk Mane, and offensive Primal Groudon. Losing damage output under Trick Room would greatly hurt the viability of hard TR teams and possibly put them out of the meta entirely.
Loses out on tera Psychic to make Psycho Boost do absurd damage, Ghost for the Extreme Speed immunity + Shadow Ball boost, or Normal for the immunity to Shadow Sneak. Also loses out on being able to drop Zacian/NDM with Psycho Boost if either terastalized previously. Gains almost nothing in return, but is less Tera dependent than a lot of others in the losers category so it's hurt comparatively less.
Loses out on the ability to tera Steel or Poison and become very difficult to remove with its Ground immunity. Isn't hurt much compared to the other members of the losers category.
I don't see Shuckle much on ladder but on my HO team, defensive tera Water against Groudon, Zacian, and Melmetal was very important for it to function as a lead in some games. Often it made the difference in getting all of rocks, webs, and encore up vs. only webs.
Neutral
I think that Eternatus losing the option of defensive Tera is equally made up for other Pokemon losing their Tera options. NDM or Zacian can no longer Tera out of their Fire weaknesses, Ho-Oh out of its Rock weakness, Xerneas out of its Poison weakness, or Rayquaza out of its Dragon weakness. This comes at the cost of being forced to switch out against full health Primal Groudon, no longer being able to defensively tera out of Eternatus' Ground weakness or out-damage it with Specs Tera Dragon Dynamax Cannon/Draco Meteor.
Mostly just act as sash suicide leads so Tera affects them very little. Maybe slight winners because there are fewer mons who can Tera out of Stealth Rock weakness/Toxic Spikes susceptibility, but I don't think that would swing either much forward in the meta.
Originally, this was just about Mega Salamence before realizing that Mewtwo-Y is in the exact same situation. On paper, they both should benefit from others losing defensive Tera since they don't benefit from Tera directly at all. However, very few defensive Teras are used to resist Flying or Psychic STAB, with the exception of the occasional Tera Steel Xerneas or Giratina. The main reason that they are in the neutral rather than winners category is because no more Tera would result in defensive checks like NDM and Zacian always keeping their original typing. The opportunity to force NDM to tera Water early in the game, losing its 4x Psychic resist and allowing +2 Psystrike to KO it would no longer exist. Same principle applies with Tera Ground/Fighting Zacian being forced to lose its resistances to those two types (although this only affects Salamence sets not running Earthquake).
Winners
Lumping these three together because they all would benefit in the same way. Not being able to Tera themselves, defensive Tera checks the wallbreaking abilities of these three by increasing the variance in any given turn. In a Groudon vs. Ho-Oh scenario, the Ho-Oh user has three options: reading Stone Edge and going tera Grass, reading their prediction of tera Grass and staying Fire/Flying, or switching out. Without the option of defensive Tera, this turns into a mere 50/50 of switching out or being dropped by Stone Edge, which is overall better for the Groudon player. The same scenario applies with Zygarde/Eternatus/Calyrex-Ice in against Kyogre or Zacian in against EQ Ultra Necrozma. Ultra Necrozma also benefits from Marshadow losing Tera Ghost/Stellar and thus any guaranteed OHKO scenarios with Shadow Sneak at full health (Jolly CB Shadow Sneak maxes out at a 25% chance).
No more tera Water -> natural Water resistances required to not get decimated by Kyogre -> Arceus-Water stocks up greatly
Almost exclusively runs Dragonium Z so it benefits a decent amount from Zacian, Ho-Oh, Zygarde, etc. losing defensive Tera while losing nothing itself. Instead of having to worry about opponents switching or popping a defensive Tera, Zekrom only has to consider the former. Its perfect neutral STAB coverage means it doesn't face the same issue that Mega Salamence and Mewtwo-Y do. Still doesn't patch up its issues with power or speed, but no tera would do a decent amount to help it out in matches and in the teambuilder.
The loss of Dondozo being able to defensively tera is made up for by opposing Xerneas and Yveltal no longer being able to offensively tera to hit it harder. Xerneas needs Grass Knot to reliably OHKO without the option of Tera Electric Thunderbolt and Yveltal can't 2HKO with Dark Pulse anymore. Benefits slightly from the absence of Tera Water mons to resist Liquidation/Wave Crash + Avalanche.
Conclusion
I'm on the fence for whether or not banning Tera would make a better or worse metagame. Tera's existence helps the tier handle Primal Groudon, who got amazing new moves in Generations 8 and 9 in the form of Heat Crash, Spikes, and Will O' Wisp. A tera ban would likely make the tier slightly more diverse and certainly nerf the Pokemon who've consistently had complaints about them since the tier's establishment (Zacian, Zygarde-C, and Xerneas). I think that a no-Tera tournament should be held to see how different the meta ends up being and if players prefer it before a formal suspect test takes place. Thank you for reading this. Any responses/commentary would be appreciated.
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The reason that we won't see a Xern Tera ban is because it's a complex ban.
has been banned from National Dex Ubers! Hated that freak. But now, there's a lot of flexibility for "strong special attacker" on offensive teams, especially Fairy-type ones, so a set I think could see some rise now that the deer is gone is:
Arceus-Fairy @ Pixie Plate
Ability: Multitype
Tera Type: Ground
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Judgment
- Earth Power
- Power Gem / Recover / Refresh / Taunt
This set suffered massive competition from Xerneas as a special attacking Fairy-type, but now that the only competition is Magearna, Mega Diancie and Flutter Mane, I think this set could see some usage once the AG tag is put on Xerneas. It does have some cool things over Xerneas too, such as Earth Power to hit Primal Groudon, NDM and Arceus-Poison in one slot, Power Gem for a more direct way of hitting Ho-Oh, Recover and Refresh for longevity against bulkier teams and Taunt to stop things like Confide Chansey from removing your boosts. Sure it doesn't have the speed that Xerneas did, but with good bulk and still solid natural speed (don't sleep on 120) I can see it being usable on Screens HO or Hazard Stack HO teams.
Okay, this seems like a good time to make a post on other mons I keep seeing being brought up to some degree:
It's no secret that this mon alongside Terastallizing is basically unkillable on the physical side, as its bulk as almost rivals the special bulk of , add to that only really requiring Thousand Arrows as its sole attacking move, and it can play as a mon that can compress setup and utility without being ever passive, however, the thing is that its use of Teras are mainly for defensive purposes, so it's far from being immediately opressive, especially as it shines more against offensive teams as it's not really a wallbreaker out of relying on rather weak setup, being passive if forced to use Rest, and there's a ton of ways to play around it like phazing from Ho-Oh, Marshadow's Spectral Thief, and special attackers in general, personally I don't find this mon as particularly problematic right now.
I can see more of an argument for this mon lately as Intrepid Sword + Terastallizing reaches some ridiculous amount of KOes, more specifically nearly the whole metagame is 2HKOed by a unresisted Tera Fighting Close Combat, Tera Electric Wild Charge also deserves a mention to ensure a OHKO on Ho-Oh, and Tera Blast Ground is also really solid to circumvent checks like Necrozma-DM and Primal Groudon.
On the other hand, arguments can also be made for it being fine as Intrepid Sword only triggers once per battle, so it has to be used carefully, in addition it can't run all the coverage moves and Tera types (no, Stellar isn't good here as the boost isn't sufficient) it'd want, and of course there's the risk of Tera Blast variants having a dead moveslot if the Tera slot was consumed by an ally. I'm rather neutral, but I wouldn't miss it if it was removed either.
Terastallizing
This one is a hot topic even among the council members from the look of things, on one hand it does raise the versatility of the entire metagame, but on the other it's also undeniable that it has made several mons broken, not that this should be a good reason for a mon to be unbanned just because something else is the real culprit, broken checking broken not being a policy in general in the first place and all, in any case, there hasn't been a need to ban too many mons mainly because of this mechanic compared to other tiers, add to that regional gimmicks usually having higher standards to receive tiering action, and it's easy for this one to go either way as the meta develops.
I'll also note that per the last survey, it's clear that the community had a poor reception of Teras in the metagame, but as this was a good while ago, combined with Xerneas being removed recently, it'd be ideal to see if these lines of thought remain to see what should be potentially looked on next, not even necessarily on Teras, but on other stuff potentially concerning such as the mons above.
It's no secret that this mon alongside Terastallizing is basically unkillable on the physical side, as its bulk as
almost rivals the special bulk of , add to that only really requiring Thousand Arrows as its sole attacking move, and it can play as a mon that can compress setup and utility without being ever passive, however, the thing is that its use of Teras are mainly for defensive purposes, so it's far from being immediately opressive, especially as it shines more against offensive teams as it's not really a wallbreaker out of relying on rather weak setup, being passive if forced to use Rest, and there's a ton of ways to play around it like phazing from Ho-Oh, Marshadow's Spectral Thief, and special attackers in general, personally I don't find this mon as particularly problematic right now.I can see more of an argument for this mon lately as Intrepid Sword + Terastallizing reaches some ridiculous amount of KOes, more specifically nearly the whole metagame is 2HKOed by a unresisted Tera Fighting Close Combat, Tera Electric Wild Charge also deserves a mention to ensure a OHKO on Ho-Oh, and Tera Blast Ground is also really solid to circumvent checks like Necrozma-DM and Primal Groudon.
On the other hand, arguments can also be made for it being fine as Intrepid Sword only triggers once per battle, so it has to be used carefully, in addition it can't run all the coverage moves and Tera types (no, Stellar isn't good here as the boost isn't sufficient) it'd want, and of course there's the risk of Tera Blast variants having a dead moveslot if the Tera slot was consumed by an ally. I'm rather neutral, but I wouldn't miss it if it was removed either.
Terastallizing
This one is a hot topic even among the council members from the look of things, on one hand it does raise the versatility of the entire metagame, but on the other it's also undeniable that it has made several mons broken, not that this should be a good reason for a mon to be unbanned just because something else is the real culprit, broken checking broken not being a policy in general in the first place and all, in any case, there hasn't been a need to ban too many mons mainly because of this mechanic compared to other tiers, add to that regional gimmicks usually having higher standards to receive tiering action, and it's easy for this one to go either way as the meta develops.
I'll also note that per the last survey, it's clear that the community had a poor reception of Teras in the metagame, but as this was a good while ago, combined with Xerneas being removed recently, it'd be ideal to see if these lines of thought remain to see what should be potentially looked on next, not even necessarily on Teras, but on other stuff potentially concerning such as the mons above.
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I think both Pokemon have a significant positive influence within the metagame.
One of the best qualities it has is that you can put it in a team and you instantly have a PDon, Mega Salamence, Necrozma-DM switch-in, on top of checking most physical attackers. Not unlike putting Ho-Oh in a team, this opens up quite a lot of slots in the teambuilder, provided you have something to manage the set-up sweepers bearing Taunt. Aromatherapy (rip Xerneas) support is not mandatory but allows the full exploitation of Zygarde's qualities. Being one of the most resilient Pokemon, it is also a terrifying late-game cleaner. The only thing against it IMO is the existence of Tera + Thousand Waves sets, but most of its checks (Whirlwind Ho-Oh, Taunt support Arceus...) are not too bothered by it, and it forfeits a lot of its defensive qualities.
I love Zacian-C, not because of its admittedly excellent ability to punch holes in the opposing team, but because of its excellent speed tier and typing. It gives offensive teams an out versus Extremekiller in particular, while also helping against LO/Meteor Beam Eternatus, Marshadow, and it can even stomach one hit from Deoxys-A, all big threats against offensive teams. It is also one of the only offensive switch-in to LO Yveltal. One weakness which was not mentioned is that it can fall flat against stall, however. Overall, I'm happy about Zacian's place in the metagame, especially considering Xerneas' ban.
I had planned to have a post up on Monday about balance in the Xern era, but being busy irl and the suspect ending sooner than I had expected means that it likely wont happen. As for the topics above:
- I largely agree with what Bob and cdfu12 have mentioned above. I have seen some of the complaints about Zygarde and though I understand to some degree where they are coming from I don't really agree. I've mentioned before that I view Zygarde primarily as a threat in the builder and that might be overstating it a little bit. If you completely ignore it or just have a singular soft check that loses the ability to do so when paralyzed barring extreme hax you are going to have a rough time. That is true of most top tier mons in any tier.
What separates Zygarde from the freshly banned Xerneas or Zacian-Crowned precisely what Bob mentions: it is not immediately oppresive, at least for coil sets. It isn't as simple as finding the right opening, grabbing a coil, and going to town. It is a wincon that requires a decent amount of in game planning and maneuvering to put Zygarde in a position to where it is able to position itself to get those 3-4 turns needed to facilitate a sweep.
Furthermore, though Zygarde does have Blissey level physical bulk once transformed, its bulk in base form is decent, but unremarkable, particularly on the special side. Untransformed, Zygarde is pretty heavily threatened by most of the special attackers in the tier. It can tera to resist some of these attacks, but for the most part Zygarde tera is not allowing Zygarde to set up on the mons which threaten it. Zygarde is certainly one of the best users of tera, but it is an opportunity cost given the frequency at which it wants to use as often another mon needs it for defensive purposes.
Most importantly, I do not view Zygarde as unreasonably oppressive in the builder. Sure there are lots of mons that hate to see it on the other side of the field, but lots of its counterplay such as Taunt Arceus, Primal Kyogre, and Dondozo would still be popular options if Zygarde were to leave the tier. Though I do not currently view Zygarde as remotely suspectworthy, that very well could change depending on what the post Xerneas meta looks like. As such, it is worth keeping an eye on. Trapping and Dragon Tail sets would most likely be the culprits that would push Zygarde to suspect worthy. That being said, I think it is likely that a tera retest should happen before a Zygarde test.
- I've said in the past that if we did not test Xerneas or test, Zacian-C should be the target of the next suspect. Zacian was probably the mon most enabled Xern due to the shared counterplay they had on most non stall teams. Most teams could easily manage one of these, but handling both in addition to their friends was a struggle without sticking to quite limited structures. Notably, Xerneas was the best enabler of the scariest Zacian set, Tera Blast Ground if it ran HP Rock Focus Blast as it rarely needed to tera itself.
Due to the loss of a partner which so efficiently wore down their shared checks it is hard to see Zacian remaining as problematic as it was. It will undoubtedly remain a top mon in the meta, but I think it is likely to be knocked down a peg. This is speculative of course and we will have to see how things develop. Zacian will likely remain the most potent abuser of tera in the tier. While I have seen some tera electric wild charge sets, I've been mostly left unimpressed as they are far too high risk for a minimal reward for my tastes. If I was going that route I'd run tera fire.
The issues that Bob mentioned hold Zacian back from being banworthy in my eyes. The nerfs it recieved this generation are truly noticable. Intrepid Sword only activating once per battle is a signficant issue as Zacian is uniquely punished for prematurely sending it out. This leads to an uneasy feeling whenever one does send it out as its threat level is heavily reduced if you make a misplay. It is also held back by the scariest set, TB Ground, being fairly difficult to comfortably fit on most teams. Zacian already wants all of Play Rough, Behemoth Blade, Wild Charge, and Close Combat. The frequency of games in which Zacian is playing with a dead slot is certainly noticable. The same applies to tera fight CC though that set is more consistent on a game to game basis.
All in all, Zacian suffers from enough consistency issues that I find it to be the normal ubers level of broken rather than AG worthy presently. I don't really have much to add that hasn't been said above.
Tera - Currently I am of the mindset that tera is probably ok for now. What I struggle with is that the tier would likely be more competitive if tera goes, but it also it also is not currently unhealthy enough to axe, considering it is a generational mechanic. Personally I'd perfer that Xerneas remain NDAG even if tera was to be banned, but that is not a common view. I think most people would view tera as what broke Xerneas. The same obviously applies to Shedninja, though from what I have heard that was more of a this is too unhealthy rather than broken ban as I started playing the tier shortly after that. What would sway me towards a tera ban is another mon abusing it to the level that Zacian-C does currently. I don't view Zacian-C as banworthy with tera, but I think it comes very close to crossing the line. If we have multiple mons abusing the mechanic to this degree at that point I'd perfer to toss the mechanic. Everything else is currently honest enough, for lack of a better word, in how they interact with tera.
- I do not think this is a particularly common view, but I would like the council to keep an eye on Gothitelle. This is not an issue in the slightest on ladder, but more for tounaments. This may not be the case moving forward, but during the Xerneas meta Goth had an unsettling level of consistency. A meta in which Goth is consistent rather than a fish is one that I view as unhealthy and I'd like the council to keep an eye on it moving forward.
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Well I did not expect that portion of the post to be as long as it was. The main reason for this post is what are y'all most excited to build and experiment with in our new meta? Personally:
- I like it a lot but hated building with it largely due to Xern. They largely felt 'sameish' and were more frustrating to build than they were fun to play. It felt near impossible to deviate from Tina-O/Defensive Pdon / Arceus - Dark / Zygarde / +2. In particular I am looking forward to seeing if I can get Hex / Dragon Tail to work
CM - It is a mon I've always quite liked, but using a mon which allowed Xern to setup freely while also losing to Pogre (I swear showdown is glitched so thunder has a 100% chance to para) just felt bad a lot of the time. It has enough positive matchups v top tier mons.
Defog - I've been meaning to build with it for a long time, but never had enough motivation to spend the time making the team handle Xerneas while not being weak to other meta threats.
- Not at all related to the Xern ban, but I've wanted to build a knock ferro hazard stack team for a while
- I largely agree with what Bob and cdfu12 have mentioned above. I have seen some of the complaints about Zygarde and though I understand to some degree where they are coming from I don't really agree. I've mentioned before that I view Zygarde primarily as a threat in the builder and that might be overstating it a little bit. If you completely ignore it or just have a singular soft check that loses the ability to do so when paralyzed barring extreme hax you are going to have a rough time. That is true of most top tier mons in any tier.What separates Zygarde from the freshly banned Xerneas or Zacian-Crowned precisely what Bob mentions: it is not immediately oppresive, at least for coil sets. It isn't as simple as finding the right opening, grabbing a coil, and going to town. It is a wincon that requires a decent amount of in game planning and maneuvering to put Zygarde in a position to where it is able to position itself to get those 3-4 turns needed to facilitate a sweep.
Furthermore, though Zygarde does have Blissey level physical bulk once transformed, its bulk in base form is decent, but unremarkable, particularly on the special side. Untransformed, Zygarde is pretty heavily threatened by most of the special attackers in the tier. It can tera to resist some of these attacks, but for the most part Zygarde tera is not allowing Zygarde to set up on the mons which threaten it. Zygarde is certainly one of the best users of tera, but it is an opportunity cost given the frequency at which it wants to use as often another mon needs it for defensive purposes.
Most importantly, I do not view Zygarde as unreasonably oppressive in the builder. Sure there are lots of mons that hate to see it on the other side of the field, but lots of its counterplay such as Taunt Arceus, Primal Kyogre, and Dondozo would still be popular options if Zygarde were to leave the tier. Though I do not currently view Zygarde as remotely suspectworthy, that very well could change depending on what the post Xerneas meta looks like. As such, it is worth keeping an eye on. Trapping and Dragon Tail sets would most likely be the culprits that would push Zygarde to suspect worthy. That being said, I think it is likely that a tera retest should happen before a Zygarde test.
- I've said in the past that if we did not test Xerneas or test, Zacian-C should be the target of the next suspect. Zacian was probably the mon most enabled Xern due to the shared counterplay they had on most non stall teams. Most teams could easily manage one of these, but handling both in addition to their friends was a struggle without sticking to quite limited structures. Notably, Xerneas was the best enabler of the scariest Zacian set, Tera Blast Ground if it ran HP Rock Focus Blast as it rarely needed to tera itself.Due to the loss of a partner which so efficiently wore down their shared checks it is hard to see Zacian remaining as problematic as it was. It will undoubtedly remain a top mon in the meta, but I think it is likely to be knocked down a peg. This is speculative of course and we will have to see how things develop. Zacian will likely remain the most potent abuser of tera in the tier. While I have seen some tera electric wild charge sets, I've been mostly left unimpressed as they are far too high risk for a minimal reward for my tastes. If I was going that route I'd run tera fire.
The issues that Bob mentioned hold Zacian back from being banworthy in my eyes. The nerfs it recieved this generation are truly noticable. Intrepid Sword only activating once per battle is a signficant issue as Zacian is uniquely punished for prematurely sending it out. This leads to an uneasy feeling whenever one does send it out as its threat level is heavily reduced if you make a misplay. It is also held back by the scariest set, TB Ground, being fairly difficult to comfortably fit on most teams. Zacian already wants all of Play Rough, Behemoth Blade, Wild Charge, and Close Combat. The frequency of games in which Zacian is playing with a dead slot is certainly noticable. The same applies to tera fight CC though that set is more consistent on a game to game basis.
All in all, Zacian suffers from enough consistency issues that I find it to be the normal ubers level of broken rather than AG worthy presently. I don't really have much to add that hasn't been said above.
Tera - Currently I am of the mindset that tera is probably ok for now. What I struggle with is that the tier would likely be more competitive if tera goes, but it also it also is not currently unhealthy enough to axe, considering it is a generational mechanic. Personally I'd perfer that Xerneas remain NDAG even if tera was to be banned, but that is not a common view. I think most people would view tera as what broke Xerneas. The same obviously applies to Shedninja, though from what I have heard that was more of a this is too unhealthy rather than broken ban as I started playing the tier shortly after that. What would sway me towards a tera ban is another mon abusing it to the level that Zacian-C does currently. I don't view Zacian-C as banworthy with tera, but I think it comes very close to crossing the line. If we have multiple mons abusing the mechanic to this degree at that point I'd perfer to toss the mechanic. Everything else is currently honest enough, for lack of a better word, in how they interact with tera.
- I do not think this is a particularly common view, but I would like the council to keep an eye on Gothitelle. This is not an issue in the slightest on ladder, but more for tounaments. This may not be the case moving forward, but during the Xerneas meta Goth had an unsettling level of consistency. A meta in which Goth is consistent rather than a fish is one that I view as unhealthy and I'd like the council to keep an eye on it moving forward.---------
Well I did not expect that portion of the post to be as long as it was. The main reason for this post is what are y'all most excited to build and experiment with in our new meta? Personally:
- I like it a lot but hated building with it largely due to Xern. They largely felt 'sameish' and were more frustrating to build than they were fun to play. It felt near impossible to deviate from Tina-O/Defensive Pdon / Arceus - Dark / Zygarde / +2. In particular I am looking forward to seeing if I can get Hex / Dragon Tail to workCM
- It is a mon I've always quite liked, but using a mon which allowed Xern to setup freely while also losing to Pogre (I swear showdown is glitched so thunder has a 100% chance to para) just felt bad a lot of the time. It has enough positive matchups v top tier mons.Defog
- I've been meaning to build with it for a long time, but never had enough motivation to spend the time making the team handle Xerneas while not being weak to other meta threats. - Not at all related to the Xern ban, but I've wanted to build a knock ferro hazard stack team for a while
I think both Zygarde and Zacian are more healthy than Xerneas.
Zygarde: (idk how to use the pokemon icons):
I feel like although I can often complain about how Zygarde may Glare half my team or just coil, I feel like that's just the nature of Zygarde when I don't teambuild with it in mind. There is counterplay, with examples including: Pogre, Ho-oh (to prevent sweep), Taunt arceus, etc. It also makes it nice to build a team with, giving lots of support options while walling most physical attackers before having sweep potential. Unlike Xerneas it takes multiple turns to sweep, needing multiple coils or dds to be effective.
Zacian:
I often feel like having it be an offensive pokemon with many options to deal damage is nice. Although sweeping is nice, the ok-ish bulk can make it difficult to find the opportunity to sweep, sometimes burning tera in order to get 1-2 KOs if in a bad position at most. The main 2 sets: tera fighting and ground, are consistent, even if tera ground sets hog tera. The Zacian nerf also made it easier to play around, making it much harder to sweep if forced out. It also has counterplay, from pdon, Tera Fire Eternatus, other zacian, zygarde, tera grass hook, etc.
Out of the 2, I believe zacian is worse, mainly because of tera making it harder to deal with, but it's manageable.
Also someone please teach me how to use the pokemon icons.
Zygarde: (idk how to use the pokemon icons):
I feel like although I can often complain about how Zygarde may Glare half my team or just coil, I feel like that's just the nature of Zygarde when I don't teambuild with it in mind. There is counterplay, with examples including: Pogre, Ho-oh (to prevent sweep), Taunt arceus, etc. It also makes it nice to build a team with, giving lots of support options while walling most physical attackers before having sweep potential. Unlike Xerneas it takes multiple turns to sweep, needing multiple coils or dds to be effective.
Zacian:
I often feel like having it be an offensive pokemon with many options to deal damage is nice. Although sweeping is nice, the ok-ish bulk can make it difficult to find the opportunity to sweep, sometimes burning tera in order to get 1-2 KOs if in a bad position at most. The main 2 sets: tera fighting and ground, are consistent, even if tera ground sets hog tera. The Zacian nerf also made it easier to play around, making it much harder to sweep if forced out. It also has counterplay, from pdon, Tera Fire Eternatus, other zacian, zygarde, tera grass hook, etc.
Out of the 2, I believe zacian is worse, mainly because of tera making it harder to deal with, but it's manageable.
Also someone please teach me how to use the pokemon icons.
format is :pokemonnamehere: i.e. groudon-primal (with : on each side) -->
You guys might call me crazy, but i have been experimenting with this today:
Arceus-Ground @ Earth Plate
Ability: Multitype
Tera Type: Fire
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Earthquake
- Gravity
- Recover
I am not gonna lie, i feel quite good about it.I do not need stone edge for those pesky birds when i can just kill them with my stab 
What do y'all think? I prolly worded this very poorly cuz i'm tired but oh well
Arceus-Ground @ Earth Plate
Ability: Multitype
Tera Type: Fire
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Earthquake
- Gravity
- Recover
I am not gonna lie, i feel quite good about it.I do not need stone edge for those pesky birds
when i can just kill them with my stab What do y'all think? I prolly worded this very poorly cuz i'm tired but oh well
cook broYou guys might call me crazy, but i have been experimenting with this today:
Arceus-Ground @ Earth Plate
Ability: Multitype
Tera Type: Fire
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Earthquake
- Gravity
- Recover
I am not gonna lie, i feel quite good about it.I do not need stone edge for those pesky birds
What do y'all think? I prolly worded this very poorly cuz i'm tired but oh well
hopping on da trend
Echoing a lot of the prior posts, I think this mon is very fine and healthy, and while I can somewhat see the issue people have with this mon, I feel in practice it requires a significantly higher amount of skill and a more dedicated supporting cast to make it feel “broken”, at least at an Ubers power level. It offers a fuck ton of amazing and useful defensive utility and glues the tier together to a big extent. Maybe Coil SpDef sets could potentially be too much but definitely needs much more exploration, PhysDef sets are most definitely very fine. The TWaves set is most definitely not broken, it punishes greedy plays but if you play safe early on while scouting its set you will be fine. All its usual counterplay beat it normally, and due to its low damage output until it stacks up a ton of boosts, it is not hard to switch around if needed to scout the set. Of course if positioned well and has the right set and Tera it can win, but so can a lot of other mons in this tier honestly, thats the risk you take with playing such a centralised tier.
I definitely think this is a noob killer mon, while its good against other good players, I dont even think its the best breaker nor sweeper in the tier, it genuinely struggles in the mid -> late game unless you break really well early game, which leads to my next point. With the Xern ban it also got significantly worse, losing its best partner on HO means its even harder to pressure its checks / take advantage of it weakening its checks. Early in the match you are forced to Tera to break its checks if its healthy which is a huge limitation for it. The Intrepid Sword nerf was an especially big hit for it that cuts into how well it can break later in the game. I think newer players can struggle with their mons HP conservation, so Zac C is super threatening, but I definitely think this mon is more than fine and shouldnt be considered.
I dont have much to say on this mon, but I dont think its anywhere near as consistent in this new meta, playing 5v6 vs HO is really really bad, and it still needs good positioning to play well vs other teams. At most this mon trades for another mon, but I really think even then its not like you instantly lose to whatever mon whos check got removed, you generally have a secondary check or something like a Ditto or strong priority/speed control. I dont think you can really use the trapping is uncompetitive argument either in this tier, the power level of this tier is far too high and there arent much Pokemon that can be easily trapped, and then let goth trap another mon. I think a 1 for 1 trade is a fair trade, and although this mon is bitchmade sometimes i think shes #valid.
ill edit / make another post about what mons i think r cash money later
Echoing a lot of the prior posts, I think this mon is very fine and healthy, and while I can somewhat see the issue people have with this mon, I feel in practice it requires a significantly higher amount of skill and a more dedicated supporting cast to make it feel “broken”, at least at an Ubers power level. It offers a fuck ton of amazing and useful defensive utility and glues the tier together to a big extent. Maybe Coil SpDef sets could potentially be too much but definitely needs much more exploration, PhysDef sets are most definitely very fine. The TWaves set is most definitely not broken, it punishes greedy plays but if you play safe early on while scouting its set you will be fine. All its usual counterplay beat it normally, and due to its low damage output until it stacks up a ton of boosts, it is not hard to switch around if needed to scout the set. Of course if positioned well and has the right set and Tera it can win, but so can a lot of other mons in this tier honestly, thats the risk you take with playing such a centralised tier.
I definitely think this is a noob killer mon, while its good against other good players, I dont even think its the best breaker nor sweeper in the tier, it genuinely struggles in the mid -> late game unless you break really well early game, which leads to my next point. With the Xern ban it also got significantly worse, losing its best partner on HO means its even harder to pressure its checks / take advantage of it weakening its checks. Early in the match you are forced to Tera to break its checks if its healthy which is a huge limitation for it. The Intrepid Sword nerf was an especially big hit for it that cuts into how well it can break later in the game. I think newer players can struggle with their mons HP conservation, so Zac C is super threatening, but I definitely think this mon is more than fine and shouldnt be considered.
I dont have much to say on this mon, but I dont think its anywhere near as consistent in this new meta, playing 5v6 vs HO is really really bad, and it still needs good positioning to play well vs other teams. At most this mon trades for another mon, but I really think even then its not like you instantly lose to whatever mon whos check got removed, you generally have a secondary check or something like a Ditto or strong priority/speed control. I dont think you can really use the trapping is uncompetitive argument either in this tier, the power level of this tier is far too high and there arent much Pokemon that can be easily trapped, and then let goth trap another mon. I think a 1 for 1 trade is a fair trade, and although this mon is bitchmade sometimes i think shes #valid.
ill edit / make another post about what mons i think r cash money later
I agree pretty much entirely with what was said about /.I'd like to clarify my issue is only really with , or well shadow tag since that is what would likely get a suspect test and then very likely fail to reach the ban threshold. Arena Trap is not broken so I can't say trapping as a whole is, though that is due to the quality of pokemon with Arena Trap rather than Arena Trap being balanced.
I certainly agree that gothitelle plays 5v6 against HO. This also is not a dealbreaker for me. Plenty of mons that are far better in the metagame than Gothitelle play 5v6 into certain styles. Ekiller, Zac-C unless it is the mediocre tera electric set, and non Dragon Tail Zygarde all play 5 v 6 into stall. Palkia-Origin plays 5v6 into stall and close to 5v6 into HO. Lots of mons are mediocre or useless into certain teamstyles yet are excellent mons within the meta because their flaws are easily covered by teammates. Gothitelle is not really any different and it destroys the defensive meta to a degree that few if any other mons can claim. Sometimes it will only go 1 for 1, but oftentimes that is all you need anyways and no other mon can do so with the efficacy that Gothitelle does. Going 5v6 v HO does suck, but you have 5 other mons and it isn't something that is super hard to overcome in the builder when you can dedicate resources to it because you can bank on not having to deal with certain defensive threats.
Looking through the VR for mons that traps
I decided to keep to mons I consider meta relevant. There are a few mons I could add, but it felt like bloating the list beyond more common meta relevent sets and mons. It'd be one thing if Goth just goobed stall which is already a matchup fish and does have the option to run Blissey. However, as you can see above Goth does easily remove a lot of mons which are key components of many if not most balance and BO teams. This is really what puts Goth/ Stag over the edge for me. Goth enables teams which are very consistent with one correct turn against balance and BO while still being strong against HO. Goth's biggest issue is honestly how unfun it is to use on ladder and to some degree in tournament. Even if it was suspected I doubt it would get banned because enough people just get reqs for a badge and the bad HO teams that plague low ladder are the types that goth teams probably don't do well into and it won't seem broken if that is someones experience with it.
/.I'd like to clarify my issue is only really with , or well shadow tag since that is what would likely get a suspect test and then very likely fail to reach the ban threshold. Arena Trap is not broken so I can't say trapping as a whole is, though that is due to the quality of pokemon with Arena Trap rather than Arena Trap being balanced.I certainly agree that gothitelle plays 5v6 against HO. This also is not a dealbreaker for me. Plenty of mons that are far better in the metagame than Gothitelle play 5v6 into certain styles. Ekiller, Zac-C unless it is the mediocre tera electric set, and non Dragon Tail Zygarde all play 5 v 6 into stall. Palkia-Origin plays 5v6 into stall and close to 5v6 into HO. Lots of mons are mediocre or useless into certain teamstyles yet are excellent mons within the meta because their flaws are easily covered by teammates. Gothitelle is not really any different and it destroys the defensive meta to a degree that few if any other mons can claim. Sometimes it will only go 1 for 1, but oftentimes that is all you need anyways and no other mon can do so with the efficacy that Gothitelle does. Going 5v6 v HO does suck, but you have 5 other mons and it isn't something that is super hard to overcome in the builder when you can dedicate resources to it because you can bank on not having to deal with certain defensive threats.
Looking through the VR for mons that
traps| Some Sets | - defensive sets lacking overheat - defensive sets - grouping them all together but most defensive sets lacking taunt - special sets- defensive sets and DD sets which have burnt the Z |
| Most Sets | - sets lacking dragon tail - Offensive sets are not common atm - lacking volt switch (why it is still B is beyond me) |
| All Sets | |
I decided to keep to mons I consider meta relevant. There are a few mons I could add, but it felt like bloating the list beyond more common meta relevent sets and mons. It'd be one thing if Goth just goobed stall which is already a matchup fish and does have the option to run Blissey. However, as you can see above Goth does easily remove a lot of mons which are key components of many if not most balance and BO teams. This is really what puts Goth/ Stag over the edge for me. Goth enables teams which are very consistent with one correct turn against balance and BO while still being strong against HO. Goth's biggest issue is honestly how unfun it is to use on ladder and to some degree in tournament. Even if it was suspected I doubt it would get banned because enough people just get reqs for a badge and the bad HO teams that plague low ladder are the types that goth teams probably don't do well into and it won't seem broken if that is someones experience with it.
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you know, for something supposedly unviable, Lugia is really, really annoying. can someone give me advice on counterplay?
Taunt
besides taunt
my team does not get taunt
the team in question:
https://pokepast.es/483a0cdbfb286ec3
the only one who can get taunt is my arceus. it needs swords dance and extreme speed for obvious reasons, earthquake to kill zacian, and shadow claw to kill marshadow and giratina