Resource National Dex Ubers Viability Rankings [Update #5 at post 188!]

[Runo]

You have provided some decent arguments, but none of them demonstrate why it should be ranked above C+, let alone B+.

" (Keep in mind that this nomination is heavily stall biased) "
maybe you missed this but this is probably why he would nom it so high.

Regardless I do agree this is a very high nom for a mon that is realistically only going to be seen on one playstyle only for the most part, which is generally the main purpose of C Tier whereby a mon either requires a lot of support to function, see Buzzwole, or is playstyle specific, see Mega Sableye. Personally I would agree more with this nom if it was to C/C+. Your reasoning seems valid enough but how applicable is this mon on more standard playstyles such as balance or bulky offense for instance, and if its just on stall (which in it of itself isn't a great playstyle) then how splashable is it on there? You said it yourself that Arc-Dark and Yveltal gave it competition as an Ultra Necrozma check for stall and that Stall2 had specific niches that made it stand out and lets you role compress things, but if we are using Stall2 for very specific things such as burning Tauntceus forms and beating Glimmora leads (emphasis on very specific here since Glimmora isn't even ranked on the VR and isn't even that good in general as you already mentioned in your post, this would be akin to saying that we should rank Tyranitar because it beats Lugia), then does that really seem like a B+ tier mon or even in the B ranks in general? Excuse me for grossly paraphrasing but what you basically is "This mon has good qualities over Arceus-Dark...but you can only fit it on stall teams..." Personally that is quite the deal breaker when trying to nominate it to a rank as high as B+ which it why I think it should be nominated for a lower rank such as C/C+, but ranked nonetheless.

There is another issue that I have with your argument is your comparison to other mons such as Smeagle and Gothitelle when they don't share similar niches at all with Mewtwo and ends up missing the nuances as to why they are viable in the first place. Smeargle for instance is ranked for its niche capabilities as an HO lead, being able to set untauntable hazards with Stone Axe and Ceaseless Edge, being able to spread status for HO teams via Spore or Nuzzle, is able clear opposing hazards with Mortal Spin or Rapid Spin, and can safely pivot to mons such as Ultra Necrozma and Koraidon with U-turn which is incredibly valuable on HO. Gothitelle is another example in which you just label off as a mon that's only quality is to mu fish vs stall teams, which is not the case at all. It does have a great matchup towards stall and borderline cteams the entire playstyle, but one must also consider the great qualities it has against more standard teams: Mons like Ho-oh or Necrozma Dusk Mane or most defensive Arceus forms without Taunt hate facing this mon because they are basically hindered for most of the game until its removed since something like Koradion clicking U-turn on the switch in spells instant death for them if Goth is present. Goth being able to remove those mons from the game is really valuable at enabling breakers, such as the aftormentioned Koraidon. It feels insincere to support a Mewtwo rise by going after mons that don't relate to its viablity whatsoever.

Finally there was minor point you bring up is how [x] mon isn't used alot on the high ladder and therefore should be discounted: Usage does not equate to viability, but rather loosely correlates. For example in NatDex UU, despite being an A rank threat, Slowbro isn't used that much on the high ladder. Should that mon be discounted from NatDex UU then? How about a more apt comparison where Arceus-Poison doesn't see high ladder play despite being an A- rank threat on par with Necrozma Dusk Mane and Ultra Necrozma? Should that be discounted as well?

Anyways I know this is quite the long response so...
TLDR: -> C/C+

 

[bumboclaat]

I want to start with saying I think your original post on a modern version of Stalltwo is very interesting. The C ranks of this VR, frankly most VRs, are updated sporadically and generally are not going to get a ton of scrutiny by the voters unless something is glaringly out of place or a nomination has been made. There are a fair few mons in the C's where i've wondered what in the world does this thing even do, yet alone what does it do that isn't better done by something else? and are two that come to mind where someone explained their niches and I thought ok fair enough. C rank mons are generally anything beyond beyond incredibly niche options, secondary options on already inconsistent playstyles, or suicide leads anyways.

I wouldn't consider stall as a whole to be B+ playstyle to begin with. Good teams/playstyles generally do not need to make considerable concessions in the builder for a stall matchup. I could certainly be considered otherwise, but I would be hard pressed to rank stall as a whole above / HO. Though I would consider it to be somewhere around there in terms of viability. I'm not sure if or is the general representative of stall on the VR, but between them is where I'd rank stall as a whole. It'd be around the dividing line for B/B- if I was forced to cast a vote.

Where you entirely lose me is nomming for B+. As I mentioned above, I don't consider stall a B+ playstyle, but even if I did I completely disagree with a nomination of to anywhere near B+. In your nom you've mentioned the various potential niches that has to warrant its inclusion on a stall team. The key word being niches. Your post goes into the various niches can fill compared to other options, but there are many reasons why is at best a sidegrade rather than a staple on stall teams. If Stall is a B+ playstyle as a whole, than any mon that is not considered mandatory or near mandatory on it needs to be at least one subrank lower. That is the situation finds itself in at the moment.

I can't comment to the validity of the points that you raise about 's place within stall. I have not and do not intend to build for it and would perfer to leave that for those who do. Assuming your post is accurate comes across as a C mon to me. It has a niche on an already somewhat niche playstyle and that is generally what C rank pokes tend to be.

As a last aside I do have two things to point specifically with your post that I do disagree with. First, Could be an A+ rank mon and still is rarely going to see any ladder play. This is due to the styles of teams it tends to fit on in addition to it generally not being particularly fun to play with or against. I guarentee if you were to peek into the usage stats for Gen 8 Ubers for the month before shadow tag was banned you'll find a slew of mons that were way worse than it at the time that had far higher usage.

Second, as I'm sure you know useage =/= viability, particularly in Natdex formats. To even consistently get a view of what the meta actually looks like you need to be playing at 1600 on the ladder at an absolute minimum, arguably higher. If you've topped to ladder you know how many players bring shitmons just to have fun and mess around with, even at the top of the ladder. High ladder can be considered high level play, but based on my experinces there that is not consistently the case. We've all faced far to many at high ladder. Just because people like to use for whatever reason doesn't it has carved a niche for itself worthy of bringing it out of the D ranks.

 

[Weirdhamster]

" (Keep in mind that this nomination is heavily stall biased) "
maybe you missed this but this is probably why he would nom it so high.

Regardless I do agree this is a very high nom for a mon that is realistically only going to be seen on one playstyle only for the most part, which is generally the main purpose of C Tier whereby a mon either requires a lot of support to function, see Buzzwole, or is playstyle specific, see Mega Sableye. Personally I would agree more with this nom if it was to C/C+. Your reasoning seems valid enough but how applicable is this mon on more standard playstyles such as balance or bulky offense for instance, and if its just on stall (which in it of itself isn't a great playstyle) then how splashable is it on there? You said it yourself that Arc-Dark and Yveltal gave it competition as an Ultra Necrozma check for stall and that Stall2 had specific niches that made it stand out and lets you role compress things, but if we are using Stall2 for very specific things such as burning Tauntceus forms and beating Glimmora leads (emphasis on very specific here since Glimmora isn't even ranked on the VR and isn't even that good in general as you already mentioned in your post, this would be akin to saying that we should rank Tyranitar because it beats Lugia), then does that really seem like a B+ tier mon or even in the B ranks in general? Excuse me for grossly paraphrasing but what you basically is "This mon has good qualities over Arceus-Dark...but you can only fit it on stall teams..." Personally that is quite the deal breaker when trying to nominate it to a rank as high as B+ which it why I think it should be nominated for a lower rank such as C/C+, but ranked nonetheless.

There is another issue that I have with your argument is your comparison to other mons such as Smeagle and Gothitelle when they don't share similar niches at all with Mewtwo and ends up missing the nuances as to why they are viable in the first place. Smeargle for instance is ranked for its niche capabilities as an HO lead, being able to set untauntable hazards with Stone Axe and Ceaseless Edge, being able to spread status for HO teams via Spore or Nuzzle, is able clear opposing hazards with Mortal Spin or Rapid Spin, and can safely pivot to mons such as Ultra Necrozma and Koraidon with U-turn which is incredibly valuable on HO. Gothitelle is another example in which you just label off as a mon that's only quality is to mu fish vs stall teams, which is not the case at all. It does have a great matchup towards stall and borderline cteams the entire playstyle, but one must also consider the great qualities it has against more standard teams: Mons like Ho-oh or Necrozma Dusk Mane or most defensive Arceus forms without Taunt hate facing this mon because they are basically hindered for most of the game until its removed since something like Koradion clicking U-turn on the switch in spells instant death for them if Goth is present. Goth being able to remove those mons from the game is really valuable at enabling breakers, such as the aftormentioned Koraidon. It feels insincere to support a Mewtwo rise by going after mons that don't relate to its viablity whatsoever.

Finally there was minor point you bring up is how [x] mon isn't used alot on the high ladder and therefore should be discounted: Usage does not equate to viability, but rather loosely correlates. For example in NatDex UU, despite being an A rank threat, Slowbro isn't used that much on the high ladder. Should that mon be discounted from NatDex UU then? How about a more apt comparison where Arceus-Poison doesn't see high ladder play despite being an A- rank threat on par with Necrozma Dusk Mane and Ultra Necrozma? Should that be discounted as well?

Anyways I know this is quite the long response so...
TLDR: -> C/C+

When making the post, I was mainly trying to describe mewtwos niches over higher rated pokemon. First of all, foultwo is not the only set it has. It can still run other sets that don’t need as much support as the foultwo set does, such as nasty plot life orb. I was mainly talking about the foultwo set as it’s the “least outclassed set”. Nasty plot mewtwo has some niches such as being able to ohko ho-oh 56% of the time compared to mmys 10% chance, and mewtwos ability to terastalize and give a mega slot to and other pokemon. But I chose to not talk about it as the few niches it has, does not outweigh the niches that mmy has over it. On stall, mewtwo is quite a splashable pokemon. With more rest cm modest kyogres running around, pokemon such as chansey or eternatus no longer provide as good counterplay against it. Mewtwo is one of the only pokemon that fit on stall which can threaten it after a rest. You don’t need to use it against ndm either. Using a darkceus, you can allow mewtwo to fit toxic over willowisp. This way you can badly poison taunt arceus forms mentioned before instead of burning them which ho-oh already can. Whilst it isn’t an auto-add pokemon on stall such as chansey/dozo/ho-oh, it is still a premier pokemon to use on stall. Additionally, even though glimmora is not seen on the vr, the september usage stats show that it was in fact the most common lead on the ndubers high ladder. Even if a pokemon isn’t listed on the vr, you should still prep for it if it’s the most common lead in the metagame.

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Whilst you may argue that deoxys speed, grimmsnarl and other leads are higher in the “leads” category, that only shows the amount of times that they were sent out first on the battlefield. Glimmora is still the most common dedicated lead that is on a team.

If tyranitar have more and better niches than gothitelle in the metagame, then yes, it should be put higher than gothitelle. I’m not gonna say that tyranitar should be put in B+, but if it is better (more viable) than the pokemon in B, it should be in B+. That’s the whole point of a viability ranking.

I will admit that smeargle does have good redeeming qualities and that there is a good argument for it being better than mewtwo, but your argument about Gothitelle does not even being to make sense. First of all, gothitelle does not cteam stall. The only set that begins to have a good matchup against stall is the fungoth set with leppa berry recycle. This set however, has big flaws. First of all, you’re not gonna be able to taunt pokemon outside stall, and you’ll be practically useless, and if you do run standard taunt goth, chances are that you’ll only knock out 1-2 pokemon, and only have a chance to win. In case of doubt, I do have an old replay against this particular taunt set, where it was only able to knock out 1 pokemon due to rest pp issues, leaving me still in the game and able to win. https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9nationaldexubers-1926500462

On top of that both necrozma dusk mane and arceus forms don’t even enjoy switching into koraidon. There is a case where arceus fairy may wanna come in on a koraidon, but basically every single set outside stall on arceus fairy is taunt/rocks/recover/judgement. And defensive necrozma only takes up 25% of necrozma dusk mane sets, meaning that 75% of the time, you won’t be able to trap it if it does switch into koraidon.

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Of course, 32% does not look like a lot, but people who regularly play on the high ladder know that taunt rocks is by far the most common set to run into. Even if the arceus isn’t taunt, anyone should be able to deduce that switching in an arceus on a koraidon where gothitelle is on team preview, may not be the best idea. At best you’re gonna bait in a ho-oh which actually loves to switch in koraidon, trap it with gothitelle and then play a 5v5 where both goth and ho-oh are basically dead.

The last argument you have is just straight up incorrect. A team that fairs well into 20 pokemon with 20%+ usage, but a c ranking on the vr will preform way better than a team that fairs well into 20 pokemon with 5% usage but A rank on the vr. The argument that you should prep for lesser used pokemon since they’re higher on that vr is just not a good argument. If arceus poison is A rank, but you never see it on the ladder, but chi-yu is C rank and you always see it on ladder, it’s of course better to prep for chi-yu.

If some less viable pokemon such as the aforementioned gothitelle gets bumped down lower on the vr, then yes, mewtwo should be put lower too. But as it stands right now, it’s very difficult to say that gothitelle or ursaluna are better than mewtwo.

 

[bumboclaat]

One thing I should have mentioned in my previous post was my surprise at the lack of suggesting taunt somewhere on the moveset. Overall I don't think you've particularly added much of anything new in this post.

When making the post, I was mainly trying to describe mewtwos niches over higher rated pokemon. First of all, foultwo is not the only set it has. It can still run other sets that don’t need as much support as the foultwo set does, such as nasty plot life orb. I was mainly talking about the foultwo set as it’s the “least outclassed set”. Nasty plot mewtwo has some niches such as being able to ohko ho-oh 56% of the time compared to mmys 10% chance, and mewtwos ability to terastalize and give a mega slot to and other pokemon. But I chose to not talk about it as the few niches it has, does not outweigh the niches that mmy has over it.

Something being the "least outclassed set" is not a particularly great place to start for any nomination, yet alone one for B+. The original post outlined some genuine reasons why one would want to consider putting on a stall squad and those were niches to begin with. I'm not convinced that does anything as a special wallbreaker that would give you a reason to use it over other options. Yes, the chance to OHKO at +2 is nice. However, if you look at every special attacker ranked at least B they all have the means to beat without making significant concessions. needs to force something out to get the +2 and then chips itself pretty significantly to do so which is a big issue seeing as

STAB is pretty bad and horrible defensively. Yeah, as you've said it doesn't really have any niche over and the niche it has over it, freeing up the mega slot is not really much of a benefit given it is usually fairly free. Really the only mega is going to compete with is which has its own issues in being hard to fit at the moment.

Additionally, even though glimmora is not seen on the vr, the september usage stats show that it was in fact the most common lead on the ndubers high ladder. Even if a pokemon isn’t listed on the vr, you should still prep for it if it’s the most common lead in the metagame.

This should be an argument to add to the VR which is one i'd agree with. I wouldn't rank it higher than C+ at most, but I think it deserves to be there. I think the best comparison is something like in previous gens of OU. is a notorious slayer of Big Stall. The problem is that it rarely does much of anything against else. If you arn't running stall, as long as you are running an actual good team and not some meme, you're probably already handling it without giving it much thought. Hence why generally finds itself somewhere in the Cs. Glimmora is in the same boat in Natdex Ubers. A good team is already going to have to be able to deal with the things it brings to the table to some degree thanks to and . If you can deal with those you can deal with . If it is that devastating into stall that is something worth being on the VR.

Whilst you may argue that deoxys speed, grimmsnarl and other leads are higher in the “leads” category, that only shows the amount of times that they were sent out first on the battlefield. Glimmora is still the most common dedicated lead that is on a team.

These are both dedicated leads that function in the same vein as and outclass it. may have a second chance to put up one screen against some teams mid game and is nearly always going to be KO'd setting up hazards. In the case of , the only time it isn't going to be a lead is v stall where screens are not going to matter. Even v where should on paper be better than ends up being better in game. either guarentees or prevents hazards depending on what the user decides to do whereas struggles to achieve its objectives.

I will admit that smeargle does have good redeeming qualities and that there is a good argument for it being better than mewtwo, but your argument about Gothitelle does not even being to make sense. First of all, gothitelle does not cteam stall. The only set that begins to have a good matchup against stall is the fungoth set with leppa berry recycle. This set however, has big flaws. First of all, you’re not gonna be able to taunt pokemon outside stall, and you’ll be practically useless, and if you do run standard taunt goth, chances are that you’ll only knock out 1-2 pokemon, and only have a chance to win. In case of doubt, I do have an old replay against this particular taunt set, where it was only able to knock out 1 pokemon due to rest pp issues, leaving me still in the game and able to win. https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9nationaldexubers-1926500462

This looks like a game that you won because of an unecessary

and to a degree a coin flip on that rest turn. Without that

would have solo'd rest of the team especially given is

so it is much more difficult if not impossible to stall out last mon . The thing with is that it only often ever really needs to knock out 1-2 pokes to effectively do its job. Trapping and removing one of or is enough but it could also remove easily as well. The only long term threat to a sweep was and a sweep was . This replay is more on your opponent making mistakes than being bad at its job.

Of course, 32% does not look like a lot, but people who regularly play on the high ladder know that taunt rocks is by far the most common set to run into. Even if the arceus isn’t taunt, anyone should be able to deduce that switching in an arceus on a koraidon where gothitelle is on team preview, may not be the best idea. At best you’re gonna bait in a ho-oh which actually loves to switch in koraidon, trap it with gothitelle and then play a 5v5 where both goth and ho-oh are basically dead.

You are highly understating the value of a guarenteed removal of . For example, even in the replay you provided removing opens up an sweep. Picking and chosing what traps is what makes it as threatening as it is, especially against stall. That gives the user an advantage in both the teambuilder and the battle. You have no idea what that is going to do until it actually switches in whilst your opponent does and that massively affects how you play the game. Can trap everything? No, but it can trap more than enough things to enable some massive threats. Yeah it has some consistency issues and you can be playing 5v6, but it is amazing at what it does.

The last argument you have is just straight up incorrect. A team that fairs well into 20 pokemon with 20%+ usage, but a c ranking on the vr will preform way better than a team that fairs well into 20 pokemon with 5% usage but A rank on the vr. The argument that you should prep for lesser used pokemon since they’re higher on that vr is just not a good argument. If arceus poison is A rank, but you never see it on the ladder, but chi-yu is C rank and you always see it on ladder, it’s of course better to prep for chi-yu.

If some less viable pokemon such as the aforementioned gothitelle gets bumped down lower on the vr, then yes, mewtwo should be put lower too. But as it stands right now, it’s very difficult to say that gothitelle or ursaluna are better than mewtwo.

What does usage matter if the mon is never doing jack shit. To use your example, I've run into them a million times and it never really actually accomplishes much of anything because it is never on webs, the only playstyle where it is actually good. By making sure you're alright against HO general you'll probably be fine against by extension because of the extent it relies of webs to outspeed things. Otherwise it is going to going to just get outsped and KO'd. Against stall? Yeah it probably does shred stall, but that is just, pun intended, a matchup fish. It doesn't have to concern itself with its numerous, significant number of issues and can just focus on blowing shit up.

Following this logic there would be a lot of changes just looking at the 1760 stats released yesterday that any reasonable person would sideye you for suggesting. That is without looking into the 1630 and 1500's which are going to incredibly silly. Actually I couldn't help myself so I took a peak at the 1630 and is #15.

Nomming C+ -> A /s

melts everything under TR and is obviously amazing right now and is really hardto deal with. Its usage has skyrocked due to it being amazing and fixing all of it and TR's flaws and this is definitely not because a bunch of people are trying to get quick reqs for the suspect w/ TR teams.

^^^ This is what that ends up looking like. Maybe try using and seeing what you think about it rather than saying it has 0 usuage so it isn't very viable. Lots of mons have polar opposite viability and usage, especially in Natdex. Always have, always will.

 

[BrakeSeer]

Nomming Dragapult for B+


A Case For Dragapult

As of late, I have stumbled upon a hidden gem that most of the player base has overlooked. In a meta where HO often defaults to a Deo-S hazard or screen suicide lead, they often ignore the other common option in regieleki, since its explosion has little impact and can become setup fodder for sweepers like Double Dance Primal Groudon, Ultra Necrozma/Necrozma Dusk Mane, Mega Salamence with its base forms Intimidate, Zygarde, and Z-Geomancy Xerneas. this makes sense, as it's only benifits over Deo-S is a slightly higher speed stat that will often not matter, and the ability to remove itself with big boom, which is not too powerful sinc it lacks stab and comes of an often uninvestedd base 100 atk

I have noticed that screens Deo-S often becomes setup fodder as well. Because it is forced to hold the item Light Clay, Light Screen, And Reflect. The 3rd move slot is nearly always Stealth rock, as the Hyper Offense playstyle will heavily appreciate the chip damage they support, and dealing with pesky focus sash users excellently. However, this leaves the HO player with an issue, the 4th move slot. There are many good options for this slot, such as skill swap to thwart Magic Bounce users, Taunt to stop defog and setup sweepers, Thunder Wave to cripple fast threats, Spikes for additional hazard support, and Magic coat to bounce back opposing Deo-S’ taunts. But these moves cannot all fit at once. This can often lead to pokemon like Zygarde who are immune to T-Wave setting up in your face with nothing you can do to stop them. Additionally, if you successfully manage to get up your screens and hazards without an issue, you are still left with 1 issue; Switch initiative. Any competent player would be able to take advantage of the now useless Deo-S in front of it, leaving the HO player on the backfoot, something that the playstyle never wants to happen. But, as I went searching for an alternative, I think I may have found one. Enter, Dragapult

After seeing that Pult learned both reflect and light screen, I decided to see if it had anything else to offer over Deo-S. The first thing that caught my eye was its blazing speed stat of base 142, translating to a speed stat of 421. This is fantastic even by Ubers standards, as it is able to outspeed and set up screens on threats like +1spd NDM, MMY, Flutter mane, Adamant Zacian-Crowned, Eternatus, Marshadow, Ultra Necrozma, Arceus forms, Jolly Mega Salamence, Palkia Origin Form, Mega Lucario, and many, many more. This piqued my interest even further. I thought to myself, “well, surely i must be missing something, if it is this good, surely people would be using it. I must be missing something!”. So I thought of Dragapults flaws i was already aware of, and thought that perhaps it had too poor of bulk to set up screens in front of priority moves. Then I decided to run some calcs against the only priority move in Ubers that could touch it, marshadow’s shadow sneak. To my amazement, this was the result;
252 Atk Life Orb Technician Marshadow Shadow Sneak vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Dragapult: 315-374 (82.8 - 98.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
This is using life orb, not focus sash, and Pult is still bulky enough to set up at least a reflect, allowing a teammate to come in for free after and start mowing through the opponent. For comparison, this is how standard Deo-S handles that attack
252 Atk Life Orb Technician Marshadow Shadow Sneak vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Deoxys-Speed: 273-322 (89.8 - 105.9%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
This means that Dragapult is actually BULKIER than the standard Deo-s.
After seeing that, I began to think I had discovered a new niche for Screens leads. The only real competition for Deo-S alternatives I can think of is Grimmsnarl. Grimm may have a better defensive typing, but its ability Prankster is a double edge sword. While it may be able to set screens before any attack, it is also complete fodder for dark types, since it cannot pivot out with parting shot, or paralyze it with Thunder Wave. this is a major downside, and can add unnecessary mind games to an otherwise straightforward and consistent pokemon, especially with the new prevalence of Arceus-Dark thanks to koraidon leaving, along with Yveltal being a much more stable defensive and offensive pokemon, making it more used as well. This leads to an unfavorable matchup you will see a lot of the time, leading me to conclude that the downsides grimm comes with outweigh the benefit that comes with using it over Dragapult or Deo-S.

And now, I will bring a few more pros that come with using Pult. To start on the more tame side, Dragapult is a Ghost type, meaning that Espeed and rapid spin attempts from arceus and rapid spin suicide leads respectively will be quite ineffective, as then Dragapult can hinder them by setting up screens again, or using other methods i will discuss later. The second pro i have is Dragpult’s access to the move Curse. This move will do 25% of the opponents maximum health each turn until they switch out, heavily discouraging hazard setting attempts from the likes of Primal Groudon, and NDM. On top of that, Curse has a drawback, at least at first glace. If Curse is successful, then it cuts the user's HP by 50% of their maximum health. But, a suicide lead can use this to their adavantage. Since Curse gives off immense pressure, you will often be able to force switches with it, and taking advantage of the 50% recoil to intentionally kill yourself, letting you immediately bring in a powerful threat, without having to waste a turn switching out without giving off some sort of pressure when doing so. And even if you run a regular offense team, Pult can still be of use thanks to its access to the move U-Turn, letting you switch out to a teammate while exerting pressure by breaking focus sashes, and by finishing off low health pokemon that had been weakened by teammates or by your own curse. By this point, I was convinced Pult had what it took, before I remembered its signature move, dragon darts. This 50 base power 100% acc move always hits 2 times, allowing it to bypass focus sash like the double kick Terrakion before it, ruining opposing leads that try to shut it down with taunt. This gives it a good matchup into smeargle, with an optimized ev spread of 252hp, 20atk, and 240 speed and a timid nature keeps its place in the speed tier and giving it enough power to OHKO smeargle 50% of the time (20 Atk Dragapult Dragon Darts (2 hits) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Smeargle: 288-338 (91.7 - 107.6%) -- approx. 50% chance to OHKO). There is another way to run it as well, with Will-O-Wisp and a bit of bulk investment or extra speed investment, giving it extra options to cripple physical threats, even after the screens fade, Giving it an extra edge against Deo-S, who cannot burn targets.

This all sounds well and good in theory, but does it work in practice? After all, many ideas begin to fall apart once they are put in place? Well, I may have the answer. I created a team that utilized Will-O-Wisp Curse Pult dual screens with max speed and hp, and a tiny bit of def EVs for marshadow Shadow sneaks, and I managed to peat at 1711 ELO, or top 50 in the tier. I doubt this makes me an authority to speak on the matter of viability, but I have enough experience to know when something has potential.

So in conclusion, thanks to a combination of good typing for denying rapid spin, a good stat spread to tank priority moves and set up screes, and excellent utility movepool in curse for forcing a ko, wisp for disrupting setup, p good pivoting moves, the ability to bypass focus sash on other hazard leads, places it at the same level, if not higher, as fellow screen setter Grimmsnarl, which would as of writing, land Pult in B+ in the ranking.

No TLDR if you wanna be informed on tier contribution you can put in the effort to read a 3 page document (but seriously I summarized my points in the conclusion if you don’t wanna read this 1400 word doc)

• Brakeseer / Goltres / Malice Incarnate

 

[Fracterra]

I am very late to this, but banning Koraidon was a good idea. I was able to win every game I played with this gut, and I am not good

 

[Cancel cult]

I am very late to this, but banning Koraidon was a good idea. I was able to win every game I played with this gut, and I am not good

first of all, that probobly wont work in higher ladders
second of all so this isnt a one liner, when i first started playing this format, i used pult. it was a bad call, a lot has changed since then, and i cant remember how well it preformed, but it wasnt terrible iirc. also, it wouldve been a decent counter to korai, with it outspeeding and killing, but that no longer matters. i think it still has potential, because it has a lot of useful qualities. worth considering imo.

 

[BrakeSeer]

first of all, that probobly wont work in higher ladders
second of all so this isnt a one liner, when i first started playing this format, i used pult. it was a bad call, a lot has changed since then, and i cant remember how well it preformed, but it wasnt terrible iirc. also, it wouldve been a decent counter to korai, with it outspeeding and killing, but that no longer matters. i think it still has potential, because it has a lot of useful qualities. worth considering imo.

i have been swayed to have it a c rank since i further optimized it to always live life orb marsh shadow sneak and always OHKO smeargle with dragon darks, at the cost of having to speed creep eternatus instead of mmy

Dragapult @ Light Clay
Ability: Cursed Body
Shiny: Yes
Tera Type: Dark
EVs: 212 Atk / 136 Def / 160 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Light Screen
- Reflect
- Curse
- Dragon Darts

 

[mullet boy games]

i think that xerneas should s tier it is really strong and it has geomancy and power herb which boasts sp def sp atck and speed by two with tera steel can tank most hit like plus one Behemoth Blade form Zacian-Crowned and z geomancy boasts all stats by one than next turn it boasts sp atk sp def and speed and has a great match up aginst zygarde core arceus dark koraidon yveltal and so many more it has been on all of my national dex ubers team.

 

[BrakeSeer]

i think that xerneas should s tier it is really strong and it has geomancy and power herb which boasts sp def sp atck and speed by two with tera steel can tank most hit like plus one Behemoth Blade form Zacian-Crowned and z geomancy boasts all stats by one than next turn it boasts sp atk sp def and speed and has a great match up aginst zygarde core arceus dark koraidon yveltal and so many more it has been on all of my national dex ubers team.

run tera electric. boosts tbolt for ho oh which tnaks to modest natures is an OHKO iirc and you keep the steel resist. but yeah S rank is almost low imo modest xern is on the same level as pdon to me. instead of the glue mon, it is the corrosive acid mon

 

[S0A0M0I0]

So... for D Tier then?

Like it's main niche in OU was denying hazard removal options like Rapid Spin and Defog, but Rapid Spin isn't seen much in this tier, with only using it. I guess Mortal Spin from could also count but I don't think neither of them are that viable anyways. But Defog is pretty common in NDUbers. The problem however, is that pretty much all the common defoggers in the tier DESTROY one-on-one.

and can both hit for STAB super-effective moves, forcing it to terastalize, which limits other pokemon like and , both of which really want to terastalize also. Tera Water against also makes it weak to 's thunder/bolt, and speaking of , on or sets, it can sometimes run Defog also. And unless Gholdengo is running itself, it's gonna get outsped. There's also a few others, like , , and even .

vs Ho-Oh

0 Atk Ho-Oh Sacred Fire vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gholdengo: 284-336 (90.1 - 106.6%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
0 Atk Ho-Oh Sacred Fire vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Gholdengo: 284-336 (75.1 - 88.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 Atk Ho-Oh Sacred Fire vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gholdengo: 204-240 (53.9 - 63.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

192+ Atk Ho-Oh Sacred Fire vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gholdengo: 360-426 (114.2 - 135.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
192+ Atk Ho-Oh Sacred Fire vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Gholdengo: 360-426 (95.2 - 112.6%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
192+ Atk Ho-Oh Sacred Fire vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gholdengo: 258-306 (68.2 - 80.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Worst part is that, unless it's , Gholdengo can't even OHKO Ho-Oh with POWER GEM, of all things.

252 SpA Gholdengo Power Gem vs. 248 HP / 52 SpD Ho-Oh: 236-280 (56.8 - 67.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Gholdengo Power Gem vs. 248 HP / 52 SpD Ho-Oh: 352-416 (84.8 - 100.2%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Tera Rock Gholdengo Power Gem vs. 248 HP / 52 SpD Ho-Oh: 528-624 (127.2 - 150.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

vs Yveltal

0- Atk Dark Aura Yveltal Foul Play vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gholdengo: 168-200 (53.3 - 63.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Dark Aura Yveltal Dark Pulse vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Gholdengo: 486-577 (154.2 - 183.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
0- Atk Life Orb Dark Aura Yveltal Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gholdengo: 307-367 (97.4 - 116.5%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO

I know sets don't run Defog, but I just felt like mentioning it.

252 SpA Gholdengo Make It Rain vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Yveltal: 204-240 (44.8 - 52.7%) -- 22.7% chance to 2HKO

Power Gem doesn't do more than Make it Rain.

vs Xerneas

252 SpA Xerneas Thunder vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Tera Water Gholdengo: 260-308 (82.5 - 97.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Xerneas Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Tera Water Gholdengo: 214-252 (67.9 - 80%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Choice Specs Xerneas Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Tera Water Gholdengo: 318-376 (100.9 - 119.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252+ SpA Xerneas Thunder vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Tera Water Gholdengo: 572-674 (181.5 - 213.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ SpA Xerneas Thunder vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Gholdengo: 286-337 (90.7 - 106.9%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
+2 252+ SpA Fairy Aura Xerneas Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Gholdengo: 245-288 (77.7 - 91.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ SpA Fairy Aura Xerneas Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Gholdengo: 174-204 (46 - 53.9%) -- 49.2% chance to 2HKO

252 SpA Gholdengo Make It Rain vs. +2 0 HP / 0 SpD Xerneas: 204-242 (51.9 - 61.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
It does OHKO without the Geomancy boost though.

vs Giratina-Origin

208+ SpA Griseous Core Giratina-Origin Hex (65 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Gholdengo: 276-326 (87.6 - 103.4%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
208+ SpA Griseous Core Giratina-Origin Hex (130 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Gholdengo: 552-650 (175.2 - 206.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

"How would Gholdengo get statused??" Secondary Effects idk

184+ Atk Griseous Core Giratina-Origin Poltergeist vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gholdengo: 444-524 (140.9 - 166.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Gholdengo Shadow Ball vs. 248 HP / 52 SpD Giratina-Origin: 254-300 (50.4 - 59.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Gholdengo Shadow Ball vs. 248 HP / 52 SpD Giratina-Origin: 378-446 (75.1 - 88.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

vs Arceus Formes

0- Atk Dread Plate Arceus-Dark Foul Play vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gholdengo: 122-146 (38.7 - 46.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
8 SpA Dread Plate Arceus-Dark Judgment vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Gholdengo: 326-386 (103.4 - 122.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Gholdengo Make It Rain vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Arceus-Dark: 171-202 (38.6 - 45.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

0 SpA Earth Plate Arceus-Ground Judgment vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Gholdengo: 326-386 (103.4 - 122.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Gholdengo Make It Rain vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Arceus-Ground: 171-202 (38.6 - 45.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

0 SpA Splash Plate Arceus-Water Judgment vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Gholdengo: 163-193 (51.7 - 61.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Gholdengo Shadow Ball vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Arceus-Water: 114-135 (25.7 - 30.4%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

vs Lunala

0 SpA Lunala Hex (65 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Gholdengo: 200-236 (63.4 - 74.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Lunala Moongeist Beam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Gholdengo: 306-360 (97.1 - 114.2%) -- 75% chance to OHKO

252 SpA Gholdengo Shadow Ball vs. 148 HP / 0 SpD Shadow Shield Lunala: 254-300 (56.1 - 66.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Gholdengo Shadow Ball vs. 148 HP / 0 SpD Shadow Shield Lunala: 378-446 (83.6 - 98.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

What does this guy even do if it just loses to all the defoggers in the tier? Status absorb? That's stupid. It MIGHT be seen on stall, but to be honest it looks like a waste of a slot even there, where , and should be able to carry it. I don't see what it can do without heavy team support, so I feel like D Tier is a good place for it.

 

[bumboclaat]

Since was banned from NDOU it would be D tier by default since it is an actual uber now. It going any higher would require someone to nom it and show whatever niche it has.

 

[ANinjaDude]

phermosa sometimes uses spin

That requires you to use Pheromosa. The number one issue with using Pheromosa is that you're using Pheromosa, and not a good pokemon.

 

[entrocefalo]

Apologies for the delay but here the new update!

Rises:

Hide

from S-2 to S2
from S-3 to S3
from A+1 to S-2
fromA+2 to A+1
from A+3 to A+2
from A+4 to A+3
from A4 to A+5
from A5 to A3
from A-1 to A2
from A-4 to A-2
from A-5 to A-4
from A-6 to A+4
from B+ to A-1
from B+ to A-5
from B+ to A-6
from B to B+
from B to B+
from C+ to B-
from C+ to B
from C+ to B-
from UR to C+
from D to C-
from D to C-
from UR to C

Drops:

Hide

from S2 to S-1
from S-1 to S-3
from A2 to B+
from A3 to A4
from A-2 to B+
from B+ to B
from B to C
from B- to C
from B- to C
from C+ to C
from C to D
from C- to D
from C to UR
from C to UR
from C to UR
from C- to UR
from C to UR

If you have any question, feel free to ask Eledyr or me here or on Discord.

 

[bumboclaat]

It is really nice to see the VR updated to reflect the post Koraidon meta so first thank you to all the voters for putting the time and energy in to do a full slate.

The big thing that stands out to me is , whom I presume is a representative of screens, not changing at all. In my experience screens are in a significantly worse spot in the post era and have fallen significantly behind other other forms of HO, namely webs/hazard stack. Would it be possible to give an expanded opinion on this?

Also would it be possible to expand on 's place in the meta? I can see its upsides as a t spikes absorber with some anti meta qualities but I've never used it and rarely face it so it'd be nice to have some more detail beyond theorymon in my head

Edit: Also very happy to see trick room be unranked. There are good stand alone users but the style as a whole is unviable imo

 

[Oculars]

UR --> B
This mon can prove vital in Stall vs Stall matchups and offers extra longevity to long term threats such as spikes groudon through wish passing and tera poison offering a way to consistently remove tspikes
Take this expertly played tournament game from NDFL with WeirdHamster vs R8 two highly skilled stall players where Alomomola frequently found entries against Arceus-Dark, Ho-oh, Eternatus and Magearna and proved to be a nuisance all game passing wishes to Yveltal and P Groudon off of slow pivots.

Replay:

Insane 317 Turn Stall Off - R8 vs Weird Hamster

Shoutout Taka for help building this week too greatly appreciate it.

 

[R8]

Hello, I would like to nominate Alomomola probably for somewhere in the C ranks, idk where bcz I have no idea what most of those C mons do lol.

In a nutshell, here is what it does:
-Spreads toxic + pivot against most arceus formes (defensive, CM, helps a lot vs some taunt arc forms as well), or most defensive pokemon in the tier like Ho-Oh
-Immune to hazards thanks to boots + regenerator helps a lot with its longevity, and constantly keeping its team healthy - double regen w/ ho-oh helps a lot against bulky teams as well
-Can tera poison slow pivot vs stall/toxic clickers and absorb tspikes
-Wishpasses to pdon (or whatever else you want probably)
-scouts band marshadow

It does have some minuses like tera poison being more vulnerable to Pdon (although they have to respect the threat of toxic) or whirlwind ho-oh being annoying (keep in mind that protect blocks that move though, so you can rack up toxic damages to force the wishpass), but still is a mon I think is at least viable

Replay:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9nationaldexubers-1998903048 my ndfl game (Worked well in testing too vs other archetypes but I unfortunately didn't save the games)

The team https://pokepast.es/3a2c4781ee5bf443 (make the marsh specthief probably?) Better version: https://pokepast.es/1fa5ec43bd771524 (you can make arceus power gem to pressure ho-oh if you believe in your abilities to go god mode vs zygarde lol, it's a rough but not an impossible mu)

EDIT: woops oculars sniped me

 

[mangolol]

Apologies for the delay but here the new update!

Rises:

Hide

from S-2 to S2
from S-3 to S3
from A+1 to S-2
fromA+2 to A+1
from A+3 to A+2
from A+4 to A+3
from A4 to A+5
from A5 to A3
from A-1 to A2
from A-4 to A-2
from A-5 to A-4
from A-6 to A+4
from B+ to A-1
from B+ to A-5
from B+ to A-6
from B to B+
from B to B+
from C+ to B-
from C+ to B
from C+ to B-
from UR to C+
from D to C-
from D to C-
from UR to C

Drops:

Hide

from S2 to S-1
from S-1 to S-3
from A2 to B+
from A3 to A4
from A-2 to B+
from B+ to B
from B to C
from B- to C
from B- to C
from C+ to C
from C to D
from C- to D
from C to UR
from C to UR
from C to UR
from C- to UR
from C to UR

You can see the slate here. If you have any question, feel free to ask Eledyr or me here or on Discord.

VR UPDATE WOOOO!!!!!!

Also where's ? It's ubers by tiering so it should go into D rank by default, correct? (unless i'm blind as hell which could be a possibility)

Edit: Couldn't find either, despite it being ubers by tiering.

 

[TheGreenistofVortexs]

Why is mega alakazam in ubers? It wasn't in normal gen 6 and 7 ubers. So why is it here?

 

[Joseph Gomes]

Why is mega alakazam in ubers? It wasn't in normal gen 6 and 7 ubers. So why is it here? View attachment 577502

Nasty Plot

 

[S0A0M0I0]

Nominating Tapu Lele from UR to C-

Tapu Lele's unique ability in Psychic Terrain can assist many teammates in wallbreaking and sweeping in a game, as it blocks all forms of priority in the field, whilst boosting the power of Psychic moves. This helps out a lot of offensive pokemon, such as , , and more importantly, , as well as generally helping pokemon like , Rock Polish and .

Blocking all forms of priority gives it many switch-ins against and Ekiller , with Tera Normal being able to punish incoming ghost moves, to use Moonblast, Taunt, etc. Tera Normal can even wall certain sets that lack Earthquake, especially with this set:

Main set I've ran

Tapu Lele @ Terrain Extender
Ability: Psychic Surge
Tera Type: Normal
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Psychic
- Moonblast
- Nature's Madness
- Taunt

This is actually the USUM set for Tapu Lele, where it was ranked as C+ on the VR, so I feel like it has potential here (despite making life a little harder for Lele). To summarise, STAB Psychic and Moonblast do solid damage to pokemon like , , and most Dragon types in the tier. Nature's Madness is able to significantly chip pokemon like and , and paired with Taunt, can become a nuisance for fatter teams or even stall. Taunt also prevents and / from Defogging away the terrain, which is very valuable for teammates, which lasts longer through Terrain Extender. 's 95 speed stat conveniently outspeeds both Primals, and with the investment, too, so it has relatively fast Taunts, stopping opposing setup.


works very well on offensive teams, but she works especially well with other Psychic types, such as , who can abuse Psychic Terrain to dodge priority, which paired with its 150 speed stat, makes it hard to revenge kill without mons. Also, NOW HAS EXPANDING FORCE THROUGH DLC2, so it's capable of doing absurd damage thanks to and her Psychic Terrain. Other candidates for PsySpam shenanigans could be , with an even stronger *Psystrike and solid speed stat, and , who can setup on Taunted s that switches out from, making for a solid wallbreak/sweep.

Overall I believe that being able to setup Psychic Terrain is a solid offensive benefit for many offensive teams, especially PsySpam teams who are afraid of 's Shadow Sneak, or could do with an extra power boost to their STAB. I think PsySpam has potential, like Trick Room, as an offensive playstyle, with all the switches it makes.

This is the main team I've used to gather the replays for this nomination:
My attempt at PsySpam

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9nationaldexubers-2015120496-mw8p2zm3hhafv68oh5l20gt4m6hj2iipw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9nationaldexubers-2016045478
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9nationaldexubers-2016619785
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9nationaldexubers-2016055407
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9nationaldexubers-2016740661-2mwyo8euisfxo5yckltyhsd4ab38e8vpw

also is way better than what does this mon even do​

 

[kanato]

personal ranking

S+
1.
2.

S
1.
2.
3.

S-
1.
2.
3.

A+
1.
2.
3.
4.

A
1.
2.
3.
4.

A-
1.
2.
3.

It is likely to be biased because it is a meta from the perspective of HO.

 

[S0A0M0I0]

personal ranking

S+
1.
2.

S
1.
2.
3.

S-
1.
2.
3.

A+
1.
2.
3.
4.

A
1.
2.
3.
4.

A-
1.
2.
3.

It is likely to be biased because it is a meta from the perspective of HO.

How on earth is S Tier material? Sure it's strong, but being an Ice type sucks in general, and both its STAB are walled by Steel types, forcing it to run coverage, alongside being either Trick Room reliant or a slow, bulky attacker.

shouldn't be S Tier either, it's very frail, and its offenses and speed, while solid, don't make up for it that well against priority. Also it is a bit item reliant ( and ) because it isn't that strong for Ubers standard.

 

[kanato]

How on earth is S Tier material? Sure it's strong, but being an Ice type sucks in general, and both its STAB are walled by Steel types, forcing it to run coverage, alongside being either Trick Room reliant or a slow, bulky attacker.

First of all, please understand that the context is not smooth because I use a translator. ( It may sound rude because of the translator. sorry)

With the exception of , there are almost no steel types in the meta. Even the that exists can be easily overcome by with Tera Fight or Tera Ground.

Also, the mention of being trick-room dependent is personally unacceptable. Are pokemon that outspeed all pokemon containing after Agility dependent on Trick room?

I think it's almost a perfect pokemon, except that it relies on Tera.

shouldn't be S Tier either, it's very frail, and its offenses and speed, while solid, don't make up for it that well against priority. Also it is a bit item reliant ( and ) because it isn't that strong for Ubers standard.

Obviously I think I overrated . Thank you for your good opinion.

 

[Runo]

personal ranking

S+
1.
2.

S
1.
2.
3.

S-
1.
2.
3.

A+
1.
2.
3.
4.

A
1.
2.
3.
4.

A-
1.
2.
3.

It is likely to be biased because it is a meta from the perspective of HO.

No offense, but some of these rankings are a little outlandish (S+ Xerneas, S Caly-I, A- Zacian Crowned, etc). It would be helpful to both yourself and the people reading to explain your rankings.

I truly think that Calyrex-I is not S-rank caliber because it requires a lot of support than usual in order to pull off, more than you can say of any S-rank mon. Yes it is borderline impossible to wall (especially with Tera) but like most Ice-types in any tier, its typing becomes an insane crutch outside of Trick Room and also makes it hard to setup with Agility, which kills it's splashability. I also want to follow up on another point you made, "I think it's almost a perfect pokemon, except that it relies on Tera." This is the second nail in the coffin on why I think you're severely overrating Calyrex-I because it's too much of a Tera hog. If I can't Terastalize Xerneas or Arceus formes or Ho-Oh in order to support something that will be a deadweight then that is something I don't really want to use in most instances.

-> A- [1] / A [4]
The other day I was looking at the wonderful Kingdom of National Dex Ubers and saw that the King himself wasn't even in the A ranks. This is just an egregious error that I recommend should be rectified as soon as possible. Anyways getting to the actual point here, the reason I think Ditto is worth it so much over literally anything else in A- is that its simply one of the best speed control options in the metagame by far. Other revenge killers such as Zacian-Crowned, and Deoxys-A make for good natural speed control but they tend to notably fumble into nearly every speed boosted sweeper in this tier such as Arceus-Ground, Primal Groudon, Xerneas, Mega Salamence, Ultra Necrozma, etc. Ditto very clearly does not have this issue for obvious reasons and it even tends to blow other Choice Scarf users out of the water such as Xerneas and Yveltal (I would go so far as to say that these two Scarfers are terrible at it but that's a talk for another day). Splashability isn't an issue, in case you're wondering, since this is a Ditto. Fit it on whatever team composition you'd like. I've seen Ditto on Screens HO, Bulky Offense, Balance, Fat, Stall, Trick Room, Rain Cheese, Webs HO, Spikes HO, basically if you can think of a team composition here then Ditto can fit on it most likely. Now something I fear people might ask themselves is, "do I really need an extreme speed control option such as this?", and I would argue yes to be honest. While it's true that you can forego speed control and attempt to bulk everything out with defensive Primal Groudon, Ho-Oh, Zygarde-C, etc cores you can't account for everything and it also requires you to more or less play like an expert since once something like Ultra Necrozma nukes your Zygarde-C with a boosted Light That Burns The Sky or a Xerneas obliterates your Ho-oh with Hidden Power Rock or Thunder then these cores can fall apart and get overwhelmed by the rest of the dumb sweepers in this tier. Ditto offers this added security and is a much needed glue to teams by being a very reliable revenge killer that I feel is heavily warranted.