Newton's Jury [Gravity RMT]

[Maxim]

Introduction:

After a rather long "break" from Pokemon battling [with the exception of making one whole team], I decided that I wanted to build a unique team that was fun to play with and unexpected, while not being gimmicky. After searching for a few weeks for something to start the team off, I ended up looking at a guide for building teams with the Gravity field. The effects of Gravity seem to mess up most of the metagame. Here are the effects in case you are not familiar with them.

• Makes Earthquake and other Ground moves hit all targets, including flyers and levitators.
• Moves like Fly and High Jump Kick fail [well...yeah]
• The accuracy of all moves becomes 1.67 times their usual amount

After a few more weeks of theorymonning and testing, this is what I came up with.

By the way, I'm testing this out on Shoddy Battle, but I plan to use it on Wi-Fi, so please do not reccomend very hard to obtain pokemon [shaymin's the exception]. Also, I intend to play in modes that have the item clause, so keep that in mind.





Metagross

Metagross @ Lum Berry
Ability: Clear Body
EVs: 252 HP/236 Atk/10 Def/12 Spe
Nature: Adamant
Moves:

• Stealth Rock
• Meteor Mash
• Bullet Punch
• Gravity

Why Metagross?: Metagross is an excellent lead, being able to KO most leads and come out on top of the few leads he cannot take out. I chose him because he is one of the only pokemon that are able to set up both Stealth Rock and Gravity.

Item, EVs, and Nature: His Lum Berry allows him to beat leads that try to inflict status on him, like Roserade. His nature and EVs are typical of most Metagross leads, albeit with more EVs in speed to prevent other Metagross leads from hitting me with Earthquake before I set up SR.

General Strategy: When Metagross comes out, my actions depend on the lead. If the opposing lead is a suicide lead, like Azelf, I always try to take it out with Meteor Mash+Bullet Punch. If it is a bulky lead, I typically start off with SR. If it's a fire type lead, I switch to Starmie. Typically I switch out Metagross after the lead is dead or after I've set up Stealth Rock, and then use him to set up Gravity [and SR if they've been spinned] and possibly do damage.


Starmie

Starmie @ Expert Belt
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 6 HP/252 SpA/252 Spe
Nature: Timid
Moves:

• Hydro Pump
• Thunder
• Blizzard
• Gravity

Why Starmie?: Starmie is an incredible special attacker, packing three moves with high attack power and a good special attack stat. He also serves as a second Gravity supporter, able to take a fair amount of hits and set it up.

Item, EVs, and Nature: Starmie utilizes an Expert Belt simply because he does not have recover on this set, and Life Orb would whittle Starmie down too much. The EVs and Nature are what you expect from a Starmie, outpacing much of the metagame and hitting hard.

General Strategy: Starmie has two purposes, come in and sweep, or set up Gravity, then sweep. Typically, I use Starmie to set up Gravity only when both Metagross and Forretress have bit the dust. After he gets in, it's simply a matter of using the appropriate attack depending on the situation.

Heatran

Heatran @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 6 HP/252 SpA/252 Spe
Nature: Naive
Moves:

• Magma Storm
• Earth Power
• Dragon Pulse
• Explosion

Why Heatran?: Heatran is my revenge killer, and my go to guy when something is faster than most of my other Pokemon. He has the powerful Magma Storm, which is as powerful as Fire Blast, but with the added bonus of also trapping and doing additional damage.

Item, EVs, and Nature: All of these are standard on a Scarfed Heatran, Naive increases my speed without hampering the power of Explosion, and the EVs let Heatran pack a really big punch with a high speed.

General Strategy: His entire reason for existence is to take down any pokemon that might be causing me problems. If Rotom is threatening the team, Heatran simply Earth Powers it [under Gravity]. If a team with Blissey has taken down my physical sweepers, Heatran explodes on her. If I'm not sure what to expect, my first move is usually Magma Storm.


Flygon

Flygon @ Choice Band
Ability: Levitate [not that it will do me much good]
EVs: 6 HP/252 Atk/252 Spe
Nature: Adamant
Moves:

• Earthquake
• Outrage
• U-Turn
• Stone Edge

Why Flygon?: Flygon is my STAB Earthquake user on the team, and is designed to hit as hard with it as possible. He is the second fastest non-Uber user of EQ and has the attack and typing to use it effectively. Honestly, if Garchomp wasn't an Uber, I'd use him, but Flygon is effective enough. His other moves are good too, with U-Turn making him an excellent scout.

Item, EVs, and Nature: As I've said before, Flygon's main purpose is to hit as hard with EQ as possible, so these stats give him an obscene attack score and let him move reasonably fast.

General Strategy: In the early game, Flygon makes an effective scout with a powerful U-Turn. In the mid- to late-game though he shows off his Banded Earthquake and Outrage when necessary and wrecks the opposing team. If something switches in that is faster than Flygon, I switch to the appropriate counter. Honestly though, I almost never use Outrage or Stone Edge, those two are just filler.

Shaymin[I know the orange doesn't fit, but I didn't have much else left]

Shaymin @ Life Orb
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 32 HP/252 SpA/226 Spe
Nature: Timid/Rash
Moves:

• Seed Flare
• Hidden Power Ice/Earth Power
• Grasswhistle
• Rest

Why Shaymin?: I needed an obligatory Grass type to prevent opposing EQ users from blasting my team to smitherines under Gravity, and Shaymin was my first choice, with the same base stats as Celebi and Seed Flare and Grasswhistle, Shaymin makes a brilliant special sweeper.

Item, EVs, and Nature: Life Orb gives Shaymin a large boost to his attack power, with the HP EVs allowing Shaymin to use the Life Orb once more. Other than that, the EVs are to make sure that Shaymin can sweep fast and effectively.

General Strategy: Shaymin is used simply as an offensive Grass type. Shaymin usually comes in when somebody tries to use EQ, or when Swampert pops up. At that point, I use a move depending on the situation; if I want to cripple a pokemon, I can put it to sleep with Grasswhistle, or if I want to KO it, I can use Seed Flare or HP Ice.

Note: I've included slashes because I have already recieved my two Shaymins [one for Pre-Platinum, and one for Oak's Letter] and my best one has a Rash nature with a Poison Hidden Power [the other one has a Naughty nature I believe]. So basically, I have to use the second thing on Wi-Fi.

Forretress

Forretress @ Shed Shell
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 252 HP/144 Def/114 SDef
Nature: Calm
Moves:

• Spikes
• Rapid Spin
• Gravity
• Zap Cannon

Why Forretress?: Forretress provides a defensive backbone to the team and can provide valuable support, including Gravity. His typing gives him many resistances and only one weakness. The oddball move of this set is Zap Cannon, which is used as a less accurate Thunder Wave.

Item, EVs, and Nature: This might require a bit of explaining. Shed Shell is used to escape from the clutches of the dreaded Magnezone. The EVs and Nature were changed from Forretress' Physically Bulky Set. Because I am using Zap Cannon, I figured that I should put the attack EVs normally in the set into Special Defense to keep a simple Thunderbolt from taking it out. I also changed the nature to Calm because I needed a bit more Sp. Def.

General Strategy: Come in and set up Gravity when possible. If I can, I'll also use Spikes, Zap Cannon, and Rapid Spin when I can.



So, there you have it, my Gravity themed team, however, it is not without it's problems:

• Forretress is good, but I find that I never use his support options to my advantage, he takes a few hits, sets up Gravity once or twice, then dies, so I'm in the market for a new Gravity supporter [heck, I'm even thinking about using Regigigas for crying out loud].
• Both of my Pokemon with physical attacks typically take a lot of attacks, which may open me up to being walled by Blissey.
• Three words: Electivire...owns...team
• No Dark type moves to take out Latias and friends.

Be sure to rate my team, Thanks.




​

 

[Maxim]

Team Building Process:

When I started building this team, I had a somewhat foggy goal in mind, to abuse Gravity while not limiting myself to things like Rhyperior that tend to need a lot of support to get going. After staring at the Gravity guide for ideas, I took a page from the way to make stall teams and came up with this outline in my head.

Lead​

Goal: Set up Gravity and preferably stealth rocks at the beginning of the match.

​

Physical Sweeper​

Goal: Attack with moves such as Earthquake to prevent Blissey from walling me.

​

Special Sweeper​

Goal: Attack with high powered and low accuracy moves to abuse Gravity.

​

Wall-Breaker​

Goal: Prevent well-played stall teams from trumping my team.

​

Grass Type​

Goal: Because Gravity makes Earthquake hit everything, a grass type is required to resist it.

​

Supporter​

Goal: Come in and set up Gravity several times in one match.

​

With that outline in mind, I started building the team:
First, I knew I wanted to use a combination of Metagross and Starmie who could both set up and make use of Gravity, so I came to the conclusion to make them my physical sweeper and my lead respectively.

With that, I needed a grass type, and I almost instantly went to Shaymin, who has a great Grass attack in Seed Flare and Grasswhistle to make any one pokemon a non-issue.

Next, I needed a good supporter for the team that had a good typing, and I instantly went to Forretress, who has some good support moves, like Spikes and Zap Cannon and can set up Gravity.

The last two pokemon for the team were the hardest to come up with, I still needed a stealth rocker, and something to blast stall into tiny pieces. For my stealth rocker, I thought about it, and realized that I had a Water type and a Grass type, and so to complete a water-grass-fire trio, I chose a life orb Heatran with Stealth Rock.

Finally, I needed a stall-crusher for the team, I had used mixed attackers in the past, with mixed results, so I took a look at the wall-breaking guide here at Smogon and figured that I could use a choice bander/specs person to make it work, and after thinking about it, I found Flygon and there was my complete team.

After a few matches though, I found a few problems. First, Starmie was a unspectacular lead, especially when it foregoes rapid spin and grass knot. Second, my fastest pokemon was in the lead position, and likely to faint early in the match. Third, Metagross was not as good at sweeping as I thought [though most of that was user error]. Fourth, I found that I never used stealth rock with Heatran. To fix these problems, I gave Metagross the lead position [with stealth rock], Starmie a special sweeping position, and Heatran a Choice Scarf.


Threat List [Borrowed from Haunter in the How to make an RMT thread]:

Key:
Black-Not a problem
Orange-It won't sweep my team, but it can be a problem
Red-Help
Offensive Threats

Aerodactyl -Leads fall to a Meteor Mash+Bullet Punch from Metagross. All others are never seen.

Azelf -Same as Aerodactyl, though Fire Blast can hurt. Non-leads can be revenged by Heatran.

Breloom - Metagross can absorb the sleep and hit back with Meteor Mash. Non-leading ones can be handled by Heatran.

Dragonite -Starmie can outspeed all but the DD variants and OHKO back with Blizzard. DD variants can potentially cause a headache.

Electivire -If it gets a Motor Drive boost, I'm done for.

Empoleon -Honestly, I've never figured out how to deal with this thing. Shaymin is my best bet if it has Grass Knot over Ice Beam, and Starmie is my best bet if it's vise versa. If it has both, I'm screwed.

Flygon -Choiced variants can be predicted around, if it EQs, Shaymin, if it Outrages, switch in Forretress. Non-choiced variants are outsped by Starmie.

Gengar -Usually I just switch in Heatran and Earth Power it [in Gravity] or Magma Storm.

Gyarados - I can switch to Starmie and OHKO it with Thunder, but fast DD ones can be a real pain, as I have to rely on Flygon to take it out with Stone Edge.

Heatran - Come in with my own Heatran and hit it with Earth Power, but Starmie and Flygon also work.

Heracross -As long as Heatran doesn't switch into a fighting type move, he can easily defeat it. Forretress can set up on most variants.

Infernape -Starmie can easily take him out so long as he avoids Grass Knot. Heatran can also deal with him so long as he isn't an NP Vaccum Wave variant.

Jirachi -Leads get switched into Heatran who can take anything Jirachi throws, all others also get dealt with by Heatran.

Jolteon -A pain in the neck, If Heatran cannot outspeed it, my only hope is to switch in Flygon on an electric attack.

Kingdra -As long as he's outside the rain, Flygon can Outrage it out of existience.

Latias - It became Uber, so it's not a problem anymore, I guess dreams really do come true :P.

Lucario -Flygon outspeeds and OHKO's Lucario, but an SD Extremespeed can really hurt. Heatran can also easily dispose of it so long as it doesn't carry Vaccum Wave or use CC on the switch in.

Machamp - Dynamic Punch can be a problem, but everybody can deal major damage to him, particually Flygon and Heatran.

Magnezone -If he traps Forretress, I can switch out and massacre him with Heatran, though he can dispose of Metagross easily.

Mamoswine -As long as Heatran avoids an EQ, he can take Mamoswine out, otherwise, Starmie and Shaymin can also get him.

Metagross -Heatran has numerous ways to take him out, again, as long as he avoids EQ. Shaymin can also take him out with Earth Power [online].

Ninjask -Well, I cannot really stop him from getting speed boosts, but I can harm him with bullet punches from Metagross.

Roserade -Meteor Mash as she tries to put Metagross to sleep, then Bullet Punch if needed.

Salamence -Mix Mences are easily disposed of by Starmie, but DD variants seem to have no counters.

Scizor -Heatran makes a good counter, but he must watch out for superpower.

Smeargle -Meteor Mash him and then Bullet Punch. How is this thing OU anyway?

Starmie -Haven't seen it yet, but my best bet is to switch to my own Starmie and hope I win the speed tie.

Togekiss -Flygon is immune to Thunder Wave, and can take her out with Stone Edge. In a pinch, Starmie can also take her out.

Tyranitar - Flygon is my best answer to this, as he outspeeds all but the scarfed variants and OHKO's with EQ [I think]. Scarfed variants must be predicted around.

Weavile - Heatran easily cooks him so long as he doesn't switch into Low Kick.

Defensive Threats

Blissey -Flygon easily takes her out with any of his moves.

Bronzong -Under Gravity, Flygon can take him out.

Celebi -Flygon can U-Turn on Celebi [seeing a pattern here?]

Dusknoir -Shaymin or Heatran can take him out depending on his moveset.

Forretress -Heatran roasts him like a chestnut on an open fire.

Gliscor -Starmie can freeze him with Blizzard, but if he's down I have to use shaymin, but since Shaymin won't have HP Ice on Wi-Fi well...

Hippowdon -Shaymin can take just about anything and pulverize him with Seed Flare.

Rotom-A -Under Gravity, most Rotoms can be easily dealt with, though the fridge can theoretically cause problems.

Skarmory -Flygon can hurt it in Gravity, but Starmie also does well against it.

Snorlax -Without any fighting moves at my disposal, I cannot even touch him, my best bet is exploding with Heatran.

Suicune -Can also cause problems, my best bet is to use Flygon on it.

Swampert -Shaymin can easily blast is away with Seed Flare.

Tentacruel -Flygon easily disposes of it with EQ.

Vaporeon -Shaymin or Starmie can take it down depending on the moves that it is using.

Zapdos -Under Gravity, Flygon can hit it with EQ, and Starmie can hit it with Blizzard.

Please note that most of these are theories, please tell me if I have something wrong.

Here’s a battle log to show you how I use this team:

Hide

Rules: Ladder Match, Sleep Clause, Freeze Clause, OHKO Clause, Evasion Clause, Species Clause, Strict Damage Clause, Soul Dew Clause
w00th00t sent out Slowbro (lvl 100 Slowbro ?).
Maxim_6 sent out Metagross (lvl 100 Metagross).
Metagross used Stealth Rock.
Pointed stones float in the air around the foe's team!
Slowbro used Trick Room.
Slowbro twisted the dimensions!
---
Slowbro used Surf.
Metagross lost 44% of its health.
Metagross used Gravity.
Gravity intensified!
---
Maxim_6 switched in Starmie (lvl 100 Starmie).
Slowbro used Surf.
It's not very effective...
Starmie lost 30% of its health.
---
w00th00t switched in Steelix (lvl 100 Steelix ?).
Pointed stones dug into Steelix.
Steelix lost 3% of its health.
Starmie used Hydro Pump.
It's super effective!
Steelix lost 97% of its health.
w00th00t's Steelix fainted.
---
w00th00t switched in Houndoom (lvl 100 Houndoom ?).
Pointed stones dug into Houndoom.
Houndoom lost 25% of its health.
Maxim_6 switched in Metagross (lvl 100 Metagross).
Houndoom used Dark Pulse.
Metagross lost 41% of its health.
The twisted dimensions returned to normal!
---
Houndoom used Flamethrower.
It's super effective!
Metagross lost 15% of its health.
Maxim_6's Metagross fainted.
Gravity returned to normal!
---
Maxim_6 switched in Flygon (lvl 100 Flygon ?).
w00th00t switched in Slowbro (lvl 100 Slowbro ?).
Pointed stones dug into Slowbro.
Slowbro lost 12% of its health.
Flygon used U-turn.
It's super effective!
Slowbro lost 61% of its health.
Maxim_6 switched in Shaymin (lvl 100 Shaymin).
Slowbro's leftovers restored its health a little!
Slowbro restored 6% of its health.
---
Shaymin used Seed Flare.
It's super effective!
Slowbro lost 33% of its health.
w00th00t's Slowbro fainted.
Shaymin lost 10% of its health.
---
w00th00t switched in Donphan (lvl 100 Donphan ?).
Pointed stones dug into Donphan.
Donphan lost 6% of its health.
Maxim_6 switched in Starmie (lvl 100 Starmie).
Donphan used Rapid Spin.
Donphan blew away the pointed stones!
Starmie lost 10% of its health.
Donphan's leftovers restored its health a little!
Donphan restored 6% of its health.
---
w00th00t switched in Electabuzz (lvl 100 Electabuzz ?).
Starmie used Gravity.
Gravity intensified!
---
Starmie used Hydro Pump.
Electabuzz lost 72% of its health.
Electabuzz used Thunderbolt.
It's super effective!
Starmie lost 60% of its health.
Maxim_6's Starmie fainted.
Electabuzz lost 10% of its health.
---
Maxim_6 switched in Heatran (lvl 100 Heatran ?).
Heatran used Earth Power.
It's super effective!
Electabuzz lost 18% of its health.
w00th00t's Electabuzz fainted.
---
w00th00t switched in Donphan (lvl 100 Donphan ?).
Maxim_6 switched in Forretress (lvl 100 Forretress ?).
Donphan used Superpower.
Forretress lost 23% of its health.
Donphan's attack was lowered.
Donphan's defence was lowered.
---
w00th00t switched in Houndoom (lvl 100 Houndoom ?).
Forretress used Spikes.
Spikes were scattered around the foe's team!
Gravity returned to normal!
---
Maxim_6 switched in Heatran (lvl 100 Heatran ?).
Houndoom used Substitute.
Houndoom lost 25% of its health.
Houndoom made a substitute!
---
Heatran used Earth Power.
It's super effective!
A critical hit!
The substitute took damage for Houndoom!
Houndoom's substitute faded!
Houndoom used Dark Pulse.
It's not very effective...
Heatran lost 21% of its health.
---
w00th00t switched in Togekiss (lvl 100 Togekiss ?).
Heatran used Earth Power.
It doesn't affect Togekiss...
---
Maxim_6 switched in Flygon (lvl 100 Flygon ?).
Togekiss used Thunder Wave.
It doesn't affect Flygon...
---
Flygon used Stone Edge.
It's super effective!
Togekiss lost 89% of its health.
Togekiss used Substitute.
But it failed!
Togekiss's leftovers restored its health a little!
Togekiss restored 6% of its health.
---
w00th00t switched in Donphan (lvl 100 Donphan ?).
Donphan was hurt by Spikes!
Donphan lost 12% of its health.
Flygon used Stone Edge.
It's not very effective...
Donphan lost 18% of its health.
Donphan's leftovers restored its health a little!
Donphan restored 6% of its health.
---
Maxim_6 switched in Forretress (lvl 100 Forretress ?).
Donphan used Rapid Spin.
Donphan blew away the spikes!
It's not very effective...
Forretress lost 2% of its health.
Donphan's leftovers restored its health a little!
Donphan restored 6% of its health.
---
w00th00t switched in Houndoom (lvl 100 Houndoom ?).
Forretress used Gravity.
Gravity intensified!
---
Houndoom used Substitute.
Houndoom lost 25% of its health.
Houndoom made a substitute!
Forretress used Zap Cannon.
A critical hit!
The substitute took damage for Houndoom!
Houndoom's substitute faded!
---
Maxim_6 switched in Heatran (lvl 100 Heatran ?).
Houndoom used Flamethrower.
Heatran's Flash Fire raised its fire power!
---
w00th00t switched in Togekiss (lvl 100 Togekiss ?).
Heatran used Earth Power.
Togekiss lost 17% of its health.
w00th00t's Togekiss fainted.
---
w00th00t: o right, gravity
w00th00t switched in Donphan (lvl 100 Donphan ?).
Maxim_6 switched in Shaymin (lvl 100 Shaymin).
Donphan used Earthquake.
It's not very effective...
Shaymin lost 26% of its health.
Gravity returned to normal!
Donphan's leftovers restored its health a little!
Donphan restored 6% of its health.
---
Donphan used Ice Shard.
It's super effective!
Shaymin lost 26% of its health.
Shaymin used Seed Flare.
It's super effective!
Donphan lost 88% of its health.
w00th00t's Donphan fainted.
Shaymin lost 10% of its health.
---
w00th00t switched in Houndoom (lvl 100 Houndoom ?).
Shaymin used Seed Flare.
It's not very effective...
Houndoom lost 26% of its health.
w00th00t's Houndoom fainted.
Maxim_6 wins!
Maxim_6: gg
w00th00t: gg
w00th00t has left the room.

Sorry for the wait, my threat list did not copy from Microsoft Word correctly, so I had to do it manually.

 

[Eggbert]

You have two special life orbers, and really only one solid physical attacker (metagross with be hurt most times as a lead). A good way to set up gravity would be a trickscarf starmie lead; lock them to SR, then gravity. Metagross can get taunted. This allows for two physical main attackers. Metagross can take advantage of 100% accurate CB meteor mash much better on the core. Flygon could then be scarfed to deal with DDmence, who defeats your entire team after a dance. The only thing I see forry helping against is gyarados, and really you don't have much time to worry about spikes and spin blocking, only hyper offense with gravity. A gliscor with accurate stone edge, thunderfang, ect would be more helpful, and can SD more massive attack.

 

[Pratty]

For Shaymin, I recommend Earth Power over HP Ice as the primary option. Rash LO Shaymin does 23.6% - 27.5% to MixMence switchins, for example, effectively neutering Salamence with Stealth Rocks. Physically defensive Zapdos take 33.2% - 39.2% from Seed Flare, so you're hitting them hard on the switch-in. You also outspeed Zapdos and have a 40% Sp. DEF drop chance, which will let you 2HKO a Zapdos after Rocks. Specially Defensive still take 24% - 28.2% from Flare, or enough to force a Roost after one switch-in, and can 2HKO with little prior damage after a Sp. DEF drop.

Other common flying types include Gyarados(OHKO'd after Rocks by Flare, takes more from Flare), Aerodacyl(Lead only), Dragonite(19.8% - 23.5%) and Gliscor(83.3% - 98.3%...if you hit under Sandstorm). Pokemon that would be hit by HP Ice, but are not flying, like Flygon(92.7% - 109.6%) and Latias(30.8% - 36.1%) either don't care much about HP Ice and/or Shaymin anyway or are hit hard by Seed Flare. You're also unlikely to outspeed Salamence or Latias and HP Ice them, while they can both OHKO you. Because of this, Earth Power for Heatran, Magnezone and other random fires/steels is better coverage IMHO.

How is Grasswhistle working for you? It cripples a Pokemon, but the 55% accuraccy might be offputting in tight situations. Another option might be Sleep Talk, which allows Shaymin to Rest and continue putting pressure on foes or work as an even better status absorber, or Aromatherapy to heal your team of nasty burns and paralysis it dislikes. I would suggest an offensive move there, but Shaymin's movepool is dissapointingly small and HP Poison doesn't offer a lot of type coverage. Feel free to keep Grasswhistle, since it DOES get a Gravity accuraccy boost(I think) and thus might be more reliable than I think under it.

 

[Maxim]

You have two special life orbers, and really only one solid physical attacker (metagross with be hurt most times as a lead). A good way to set up gravity would be a trickscarf starmie lead; lock them to SR, then gravity. Metagross can get taunted. This allows for two physical main attackers. Metagross can take advantage of 100% accurate CB meteor mash much better on the core. Flygon could then be scarfed to deal with DDmence, who defeats your entire team after a dance. The only thing I see forry helping against is gyarados, and really you don't have much time to worry about spikes and spin blocking, only hyper offense with gravity. A gliscor with accurate stone edge, thunderfang, ect would be more helpful, and can SD more massive attack.

The touble with that is, I lose SR and only have one Gravity user. Also, I was trying to make a bulky offense team, not a hyper offensive team, though admittedly TrickScarf Starmie sounds interesting.

For Shaymin, I recommend Earth Power over HP Ice as the primary option. Rash LO Shaymin does 23.6% - 27.5% to MixMence switchins, for example, effectively neutering Salamence with Stealth Rocks. Physically defensive Zapdos take 33.2% - 39.2% from Seed Flare, so you're hitting them hard on the switch-in. You also outspeed Zapdos and have a 40% Sp. DEF drop chance, which will let you 2HKO a Zapdos after Rocks. Specially Defensive still take 24% - 28.2% from Flare, or enough to force a Roost after one switch-in, and can 2HKO with little prior damage after a Sp. DEF drop.

Other common flying types include Gyarados(OHKO'd after Rocks by Flare, takes more from Flare), Aerodacyl(Lead only), Dragonite(19.8% - 23.5%) and Gliscor(83.3% - 98.3%...if you hit under Sandstorm). Pokemon that would be hit by HP Ice, but are not flying, like Flygon(92.7% - 109.6%) and Latias(30.8% - 36.1%) either don't care much about HP Ice and/or Shaymin anyway or are hit hard by Seed Flare. You're also unlikely to outspeed Salamence or Latias and HP Ice them, while they can both OHKO you. Because of this, Earth Power for Heatran, Magnezone and other random fires/steels is better coverage IMHO.

How is Grasswhistle working for you? It cripples a Pokemon, but the 55% accuraccy might be offputting in tight situations. Another option might be Sleep Talk, which allows Shaymin to Rest and continue putting pressure on foes or work as an even better status absorber, or Aromatherapy to heal your team of nasty burns and paralysis it dislikes. I would suggest an offensive move there, but Shaymin's movepool is dissapointingly small and HP Poison doesn't offer a lot of type coverage. Feel free to keep Grasswhistle, since it DOES get a Gravity accuraccy boost(I think) and thus might be more reliable than I think under it.

Yeah, Grasswhistle has 92% accuracy under gravity, but Earth Power sounds good. I'll try that.

 

[Eggbert]

The touble with that is, I lose SR and only have one Gravity user. Also, I was trying to make a bulky offense team, not a hyper offensive team, though admittedly TrickScarf Starmie sounds interesting.

True. If you had lead starmie, you would have one user. Next, you could actually try a jirachi over forretress, incredibly bulky, 60% paralysis thunder without using bodyslam or t-wave, and of course iron head. That leaves two. Aftering tricking something, heatran, who has excellent synergy with starmie, can jump in and SR easily, not to mention roar to help with the spikes if you keep forry.

 

[Maxim]

True. If you had lead starmie, you would have one user. Next, you could actually try a jirachi over forretress, incredibly bulky, 60% paralysis thunder without using bodyslam or t-wave, and of course iron head. That leaves two. Aftering tricking something, heatran, who has excellent synergy with starmie, can jump in and SR easily, not to mention roar to help with the spikes if you keep forry.

That does sound interesting, but Jirachi gives me 3 Ground weaknesses, which I want to avoid if possible, even so, I may decide to try it out sometime.

 

[Gallade711]

Because of the pokemon that you are having trouble with and the fact that you say that you don't take advantage of Forretress' support moves, I recommend that you switch Forretress with Regice. The moveset for the Regice would be Gravity, Counter, Blizzard, and Thunder/Zap Cannon, with a Bold nature, Leftovers, and 252 HP, 252 Def, 4 SDef Evs. You listed Dragonite, Electivire, Empoleon, Gyarados, Jolteon, Latias, Machamp, Salamence, Starmie, Gliscor, and Snorlax as threats. Regice can beat all of these, except maybe Curselax, and still set up Gravity for your team.
-Against Dragonite, a +1 Dragon Dance + Life Orb Outrage will almost never OHKO Regice. Regice can then use either Counter or Blizzard to KO.
-Electivire will most likely use Cross Chop or Fire Punch against Regice. An Expert Belt Cross Chop and Fire Punch will never OHKO Regice, and Regice can use Counter for the KO.
-Empoleon will do the most damage with a +1, Torrent boosted Hydro Pump. However, it still cannot OHKO. Against Empoleon, Zap Cannon is best to use because the paralysis guarantees that Regice can 2HKO Empoleon. If Empoleon can Attack twice, then it has a very, very slim chance of KO'ing Regice.
-Gyarados without Stone Edge can be easily defeated with Zap Cannon/Thunder/Counter after Gyarados uses Dragon Dance. With Stone Edge, the problem is that after Dragon Dance and with Life Orb, Gyarados has a chance of Ko'ing Regice. Without the Dragon Dance, Stone Edge can't OHKO without being a Critical Hit. Countering can beat out the +1, Life Orb boosted Stone Edges, Waterfalls (without flinching), and Earthquakes.
-Jolteon's Choice Specs boosted Thunderbolts can only 3HKO Regice, while Regice will always 2HKO with Blizzard.
-Latias' Choice Specs Draco Meteor will never OHKO and will 5HKO on the very wierd occasion that the Latias stays in after using Draco Meteor. Choice Specs Dragon Pulse is a 3HKO. Regice 2HKOs Choice Specs Latias, and Regice can 3HKO +1 Calm Mind Latias, and Calm Mind Latias can only 3HKO-4HKO Regice with Dragon Pulse, so, no matter what, Regice would win.
-Machamp can't OHKO Regice with DynamicPunch and Regice could use Counter. However, confusion inflicting damage on Regice would cause Regice to lose. Against Machamp, it really is a 50%-50% chance for either to defeat the other.
-Salamence will very, very rarely OHKO Regice with a +1, Life Orb boosted Outrage, and Regice could use Counter or Blizzard for the OHKO. Regice laughs at Flamethrowers and Draco Meteors and KO's back with Blizzard.
-Starmie's Life Orb Hydro Pump will barely 3HKO Regice, and Regice will always 2HKO back with Thunder or Zap Cannon. With Zap cannon, Starmie will only use Hydrop Pump once because of the paralysis lowering its speed.
-Defensive Gliscor can't do much to Regice, and Regice can OHKO Gliscor with Blizzard 100% of the time, even when Gliscor uses Roost. Offensive Gliscor can't OHKO Regice after they use Swords Dance and a +2 Stone Edge, and Regice can use Counter or Blizzard to KO.
-Choice Band Snorlax and Curselax may use Fire Punch, or, if the Snorlax lacks Fire Punch, Return or Body Slam, to defeat Regice. Regice won't be OHKO'ed, even after a +2 boost from Curse or the boost from Choice Band, and Regice can just counter the damage right back. The bad news is that with standard Curselax, Fire Punch/Return won't do enough damage for a counter KO on Snorlax, so Curselax could win.

Regice can set up Gravity for your team and would easily counter the threats your team faces. You could change the Bold nature to a Calm nature to add more special bulk, but bold is better because it stops +1 Dragon Dance Dragonite, Salamence, and Gyarados from OHKO'ing with Outrage/Stone Edge. Regice could easily fit into this team.

 

[george182]

Flygon is not actually the fastest non uber user of EQ. Dugtrio is, dugtrio also has the ability arena trap and combined with gravity is borederline broken. Arena trap means all grounded pokemon are trapped. He has 372 speed max, and with choice band can trap and even sweep through teams.

 

[Maxim]

Because of the pokemon that you are having trouble with and the fact that you say that you don't take advantage of Forretress' support moves, I recommend that you switch Forretress with Regice. The moveset for the Regice would be Gravity, Counter, Blizzard, and Thunder/Zap Cannon, with a Bold nature, Leftovers, and 252 HP, 252 Def, 4 SDef Evs. You listed Dragonite, Electivire, Empoleon, Gyarados, Jolteon, Latias, Machamp, Salamence, Starmie, Gliscor, and Snorlax as threats. Regice can beat all of these, except maybe Curselax, and still set up Gravity for your team.
-Against Dragonite, a +1 Dragon Dance + Life Orb Outrage will almost never OHKO Regice. Regice can then use either Counter or Blizzard to KO.
-Electivire will most likely use Cross Chop or Fire Punch against Regice. An Expert Belt Cross Chop and Fire Punch will never OHKO Regice, and Regice can use Counter for the KO.
-Empoleon will do the most damage with a +1, Torrent boosted Hydro Pump. However, it still cannot OHKO. Against Empoleon, Zap Cannon is best to use because the paralysis guarantees that Regice can 2HKO Empoleon. If Empoleon can Attack twice, then it has a very, very slim chance of KO'ing Regice.
-Gyarados without Stone Edge can be easily defeated with Zap Cannon/Thunder/Counter after Gyarados uses Dragon Dance. With Stone Edge, the problem is that after Dragon Dance and with Life Orb, Gyarados has a chance of Ko'ing Regice. Without the Dragon Dance, Stone Edge can't OHKO without being a Critical Hit. Countering can beat out the +1, Life Orb boosted Stone Edges, Waterfalls (without flinching), and Earthquakes.
-Jolteon's Choice Specs boosted Thunderbolts can only 3HKO Regice, while Regice will always 2HKO with Blizzard.
-Latias' Choice Specs Draco Meteor will never OHKO and will 5HKO on the very wierd occasion that the Latias stays in after using Draco Meteor. Choice Specs Dragon Pulse is a 3HKO. Regice 2HKOs Choice Specs Latias, and Regice can 3HKO +1 Calm Mind Latias, and Calm Mind Latias can only 3HKO-4HKO Regice with Dragon Pulse, so, no matter what, Regice would win.
-Machamp can't OHKO Regice with DynamicPunch and Regice could use Counter. However, confusion inflicting damage on Regice would cause Regice to lose. Against Machamp, it really is a 50%-50% chance for either to defeat the other.
-Salamence will very, very rarely OHKO Regice with a +1, Life Orb boosted Outrage, and Regice could use Counter or Blizzard for the OHKO. Regice laughs at Flamethrowers and Draco Meteors and KO's back with Blizzard.
-Starmie's Life Orb Hydro Pump will barely 3HKO Regice, and Regice will always 2HKO back with Thunder or Zap Cannon. With Zap cannon, Starmie will only use Hydrop Pump once because of the paralysis lowering its speed.
-Defensive Gliscor can't do much to Regice, and Regice can OHKO Gliscor with Blizzard 100% of the time, even when Gliscor uses Roost. Offensive Gliscor can't OHKO Regice after they use Swords Dance and a +2 Stone Edge, and Regice can use Counter or Blizzard to KO.
-Choice Band Snorlax and Curselax may use Fire Punch, or, if the Snorlax lacks Fire Punch, Return or Body Slam, to defeat Regice. Regice won't be OHKO'ed, even after a +2 boost from Curse or the boost from Choice Band, and Regice can just counter the damage right back. The bad news is that with standard Curselax, Fire Punch/Return won't do enough damage for a counter KO on Snorlax, so Curselax could win.

Regice can set up Gravity for your team and would easily counter the threats your team faces. You could change the Bold nature to a Calm nature to add more special bulk, but bold is better because it stops +1 Dragon Dance Dragonite, Salamence, and Gyarados from OHKO'ing with Outrage/Stone Edge. Regice could easily fit into this team.

You know, Regice might actually be crazy enough to work, I think I'll try that out.

The only issue I see is, SR is going to hurt Regice's survivability. I do have a Jirachi that can use wish and could make a decent lead, does anyone have any suggestions for a Jirachi lead that can use Wish reliably, or anyway to incorporate it into my team?

Flygon is not actually the fastest non uber user of EQ. Dugtrio is, dugtrio also has the ability arena trap and combined with gravity is borederline broken. Arena trap means all grounded pokemon are trapped. He has 372 speed max, and with choice band can trap and even sweep through teams.

Oh yeah, I forgot about that, but Dugtrio has a bad typing and too low of a bulk to be useful for this team, besides, who would I replace him with.

 

[Gallade711]

If you substitute Jirachi in as a lead, I would recommend a moveset of Stealth Rock, Wish, Gravity, and U-Turn/Iron Head with Leftovers. U-Turn is a good choice because it allows you to safely switch in a pokemon for Wish support, and Iron Head could be used to add STAB and a 60% flinch rate (with Serene Grace). The EVs would be 240 HP/160 Def/76 SDef (or 108 SDef)/32 Speed (or 0 Speed) with an Impish or Defense raising nature. Also, you could choose a Timid nature, but you lose some bulk. Also, you could use a Choice Scarf lead, but you'd lose out on either Stealth Rock or Gravity. The set for that would be 80 HP/252 Atk/176 Speed with a speed raising nature (besides Timid), Choice Scarf, and the moves Stealth Rock/Gravity, Wish, Trick, U-Turn/Iron Head. For the Choice Scarf set, you could get rid of attacks and use Stealth Rock, Gravity, Wish, and Trick with a speed boosting nature so that you can use Trick on a lead and force them to be stuck on Stealth Rock/Taunt/other supporting move. If they use Taunt, they'll have to switch and you could then switch out Jirachi. The EVs would be 252 HP/82 Def/176 Speed for the attack-less set.

 

[Maxim]

If you substitute Jirachi in as a lead, I would recommend a moveset of Stealth Rock, Wish, Gravity, and U-Turn/Iron Head with Leftovers. U-Turn is a good choice because it allows you to safely switch in a pokemon for Wish support, and Iron Head could be used to add STAB and a 60% flinch rate (with Serene Grace). The EVs would be 240 HP/160 Def/76 SDef (or 108 SDef)/32 Speed (or 0 Speed) with an Impish or Defense raising nature. Also, you could choose a Timid nature, but you lose some bulk. Also, you could use a Choice Scarf lead, but you'd lose out on either Stealth Rock or Gravity. The set for that would be 80 HP/252 Atk/176 Speed with a speed raising nature (besides Timid), Choice Scarf, and the moves Stealth Rock/Gravity, Wish, Trick, U-Turn/Iron Head. For the Choice Scarf set, you could get rid of attacks and use Stealth Rock, Gravity, Wish, and Trick with a speed boosting nature so that you can use Trick on a lead and force them to be stuck on Stealth Rock/Taunt/other supporting move. If they use Taunt, they'll have to switch and you could then switch out Jirachi. The EVs would be 252 HP/82 Def/176 Speed for the attack-less set.

Hmm. That Jirachi seems a little too much like setup bait to me.

My current idea is to possibly have a TrickScarf Starmie to have an early game rapid spin, give Jirachi a physical sweeping position where Starmie was [and take out Metagross], give Heatran SR, and then have Regice.

Btw, can somebody else confirm if Gallade's calculations are accurate regarding Regice?

 

[Junk]

Because of the pokemon that you are having trouble with and the fact that you say that you don't take advantage of Forretress' support moves, I recommend that you switch Forretress with Regice. The moveset for the Regice would be Gravity, Counter, Blizzard, and Thunder/Zap Cannon, with a Bold nature, Leftovers, and 252 HP, 252 Def, 4 SDef Evs. You listed Dragonite, Electivire, Empoleon, Gyarados, Jolteon, Latias, Machamp, Salamence, Starmie, Gliscor, and Snorlax as threats. Regice can beat all of these, except maybe Curselax, and still set up Gravity for your team.
-Against Dragonite, a +1 Dragon Dance + Life Orb Outrage will almost never OHKO Regice. Regice can then use either Counter or Blizzard to KO.
-Electivire will most likely use Cross Chop or Fire Punch against Regice. An Expert Belt Cross Chop and Fire Punch will never OHKO Regice, and Regice can use Counter for the KO.
-Empoleon will do the most damage with a +1, Torrent boosted Hydro Pump. However, it still cannot OHKO. Against Empoleon, Zap Cannon is best to use because the paralysis guarantees that Regice can 2HKO Empoleon. If Empoleon can Attack twice, then it has a very, very slim chance of KO'ing Regice.
-Gyarados without Stone Edge can be easily defeated with Zap Cannon/Thunder/Counter after Gyarados uses Dragon Dance. With Stone Edge, the problem is that after Dragon Dance and with Life Orb, Gyarados has a chance of Ko'ing Regice. Without the Dragon Dance, Stone Edge can't OHKO without being a Critical Hit. Countering can beat out the +1, Life Orb boosted Stone Edges, Waterfalls (without flinching), and Earthquakes.
-Jolteon's Choice Specs boosted Thunderbolts can only 3HKO Regice, while Regice will always 2HKO with Blizzard.
-Latias' Choice Specs Draco Meteor will never OHKO and will 5HKO on the very wierd occasion that the Latias stays in after using Draco Meteor. Choice Specs Dragon Pulse is a 3HKO. Regice 2HKOs Choice Specs Latias, and Regice can 3HKO +1 Calm Mind Latias, and Calm Mind Latias can only 3HKO-4HKO Regice with Dragon Pulse, so, no matter what, Regice would win.
-Machamp can't OHKO Regice with DynamicPunch and Regice could use Counter. However, confusion inflicting damage on Regice would cause Regice to lose. Against Machamp, it really is a 50%-50% chance for either to defeat the other.
-Salamence will very, very rarely OHKO Regice with a +1, Life Orb boosted Outrage, and Regice could use Counter or Blizzard for the OHKO. Regice laughs at Flamethrowers and Draco Meteors and KO's back with Blizzard.
-Starmie's Life Orb Hydro Pump will barely 3HKO Regice, and Regice will always 2HKO back with Thunder or Zap Cannon. With Zap cannon, Starmie will only use Hydrop Pump once because of the paralysis lowering its speed.
-Defensive Gliscor can't do much to Regice, and Regice can OHKO Gliscor with Blizzard 100% of the time, even when Gliscor uses Roost. Offensive Gliscor can't OHKO Regice after they use Swords Dance and a +2 Stone Edge, and Regice can use Counter or Blizzard to KO.
-Choice Band Snorlax and Curselax may use Fire Punch, or, if the Snorlax lacks Fire Punch, Return or Body Slam, to defeat Regice. Regice won't be OHKO'ed, even after a +2 boost from Curse or the boost from Choice Band, and Regice can just counter the damage right back. The bad news is that with standard Curselax, Fire Punch/Return won't do enough damage for a counter KO on Snorlax, so Curselax could win.

Regice can set up Gravity for your team and would easily counter the threats your team faces. You could change the Bold nature to a Calm nature to add more special bulk, but bold is better because it stops +1 Dragon Dance Dragonite, Salamence, and Gyarados from OHKO'ing with Outrage/Stone Edge. Regice could easily fit into this team.

This is assuming that Regice has 364 HP, 269 Defense, 237 Sp Defense. All calculations assume that Regice is at full 364 HP using Psypoke's damage calculator. Also using the sets off of Smogon's dex.

Dragonite: Outrage does 325~385. Sometimes a KO.

Electivire: Cross Chop does 244~288. Not a KO. Fire Punch does 182~216. Not a KO.

Empoleon: Hydro Pump does 235~277. Not a KO.

Gyarados: After Dragon Dance and Life Orb, assuming Offensive Dragon Dance set, 400~472. Definitive KO.

Jolteon: Thunderbolt 112~133. Is a 3 or 4 KO.

Latias: Not going to bother; Latias is in Ubers now.

Machamp: Dynamic Punch. 318~374. Potential KO.

Salamence: Dragon Dance & Life Orb Outrage does 339~400. Potential KO. Flamethrower and Draco Meteor are definitive no-KOs.

Starmie: Hydro Pump does 115~136. 3 or 4 KO.

Gliscor: Swords Dance Stone Edge. 438~516. Is a KO. Unless he's talking about the Dancing Tank, then that can't KO. I'm basing it on the Physical Sweeper set.

Snorlax: Already know that it's not going to KO just from looking at Snorlax's stats versus Regice's defense.

Okay shit. Just realized I ran the tests with Regice on Lonely nature, which lowers his defense. At least we know now that he's more bulky than the calcs I ran on him show. Machamp, Salamence, and Gyarados calculations are off. I just redid the calculations (ignore all the crap I wrote above).

Gallade's calculations are right.

 

[Maxim]

This is assuming that Regice has 364 HP, 269 Defense, 237 Sp Defense. All calculations assume that Regice is at full 364 HP using Psypoke's damage calculator. Also using the sets off of Smogon's dex.

Dragonite: Outrage does 325~385. Sometimes a KO.

Electivire: Cross Chop does 244~288. Not a KO. Fire Punch does 182~216. Not a KO.

Empoleon: Hydro Pump does 235~277. Not a KO.

Gyarados: After Dragon Dance and Life Orb, assuming Offensive Dragon Dance set, 400~472. Definitive KO.

Jolteon: Thunderbolt 112~133. Is a 3 or 4 KO.

Latias: Not going to bother; Latias is in Ubers now.

Machamp: Dynamic Punch. 318~374. Potential KO.

Salamence: Dragon Dance & Life Orb Outrage does 339~400. Potential KO. Flamethrower and Draco Meteor are definitive no-KOs.

Starmie: Hydro Pump does 115~136. 3 or 4 KO.

Gliscor: Swords Dance Stone Edge. 438~516. Is a KO. Unless he's talking about the Dancing Tank, then that can't KO. I'm basing it on the Physical Sweeper set.

Snorlax: Already know that it's not going to KO just from looking at Snorlax's stats versus Regice's defense.

Okay shit. Just realized I ran the tests with Regice on Lonely nature, which lowers his defense. At least we know now that he's more bulky than the calcs I ran on him show. Machamp, Salamence, and Gyarados calculations are off. I just redid the calculations (ignore all the crap I wrote above).

Gallade's calculations are right.

Thanks.

Also, about what I said in my previous post, is there an item that Starmie can use on his Anti-Lead set other than life orb that works [due to item clause]?

 

[Gallade711]

I think that the best item choice for Anti-Lead Starmie would be an Expert Belt. You could use a Choice Specs set with Trick, but Tricking Choice Specs onto an opponent could backfire horribly.

I'd go with Expert Belt.