Announcement NP - Alice: SV ND DOU Suspect Process 6: Shadow Tag

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Alice in her party dress

Suspect Reasoning - written by eragon

Shadow Tag has a long infamous history in competitive doubles, whether it be Mega Gengar in generations 6 and 7 or Gothitelle in every generation after it was released with the ability in generation 5. Shadow Tag’s ability to trap both opponents on the field and prevent switches has immense potential in Doubles, allowing teammates to more definitively capitalize on favorable positions and convert small positional advantages into game-defining win conditions. Mega Gengar has had a controversial history throughout its existence, remaining legal in XY and being banned in SM DOU and Natdex. Gothitelle was a relatively constant but generally accepted presence across DOU tiers until Generation 8, when its entire evolutionarily line received access to Fake Out, a powerful tool that completely upended the traditional constraints on the way the pokemon functioned. Shadow Tag was quickbanned shortly after the release of Generation 8’s second DLC in October 2020, and remained banned following a suspect test a few months later in 2021. A few years later, Shadow Tag was banned almost immediately after the release of Scarlet and Violet as the Gothitelle line retained access to Fake Out and were deemed far too oppressive for the tier to handle. However, when National Dex Doubles was created in early 2023, Shadow Tag was freed for the start of the format alongside every other Pokemon/Ability that had ever been legal in any DOU format.
Shadow Tag immediately made a splash in Natdex with Mega Gengar, whose high stats and access to new tools like Encore quickly proved to be far too much for the format to handle. Mega Gengar was the first Pokemon banned from Natdex, being unanimously quickbanned at the end of April 2023. However, Shadow Tag itself remained on the Gothitelle line as only Mega Gengar itself had been shown to be an issue. Gothitelle maintained a consistent albeit generally minimal presence for over a year, making great use of its access to Shadow Tag in conjunction with other tools like Fake Out and Z-Trick Room plus Hypnosis. However, Gothitelle and Shadow Tag typically avoided scrutiny due to the other powerful Pokemon like Urshifu-Rapid, Mega Metagross, Zygarde, and others that attracted more attention thanks to their more direct game-ending potential. That being said, Shadow Tag was almost always considered to be on the table for tiering action and was often present on tiering surveys during this time.

However, with the removal of many of the other elements that were more overtly broken than Gothitelle and Shadow Tag, the two came to become much more prominent topics of discussion in the last few months. Gothitelle’s (and its entire evolutionary line’s) toolkit is extremely deep, affording it great flexibility on a variety of team compositions. Gothitelle has seen success on almost every archetype present in natdex, ranging from Sun to Rain to Sand to even the more recent Electric Terrain compositions. Fake Out is one of the primary points of contention, although Z Trick Room is another set that has repeatedly drawn ire. As such, many active players and observers have expressed frustration with the legality of Shadow Tag.

Despite this Shadow Tag is not without some counterplay. Ghost types like Flutter Mane and Marshadow cannot be trapped and can threaten Gothitelle for massive damage, while strong pivots like Rillaboom and Incineroar can escape the trapping and still reposition in the face of Gothitelle. Further, Gothitelle’s bulk, while decent, can still be reasonably overcome thanks to the extremely high power level of the tier. Players can attempt to pin down and remove Gothitelle before it gets a chance to take over a game or enable its teammates. However, it can still be difficult to be fully prepared for Gothitelle thanks to the variety of options in its movepool and its ability to be paired with many of the other strong Pokemon legal in Natdex.

Regardless, on the most recent tiering survey, Gothitelle ranked particularly high with a score of 2.45/5, finishing second behind only Stakataka’s 2.66/5. While the council anticipated that tiering action would be needed for both elements, the council chose to suspect test Stakataka first, thanks in large part to Stakataka having a slightly higher score and having had a longer time in the spotlight. While neither Shadow Tag’s or Stakataka’s survey scores may seem particularly high at a glance, it is worth noting that Stakataka was banned with over 75% of the suspect vote, suggesting that tiering surveys may be slightly underrepresenting dissatisfaction with certain parts of the metagame. With Shadow Tag’s survey score being only just behind Stakataka and Gothitelle itself already leaving a huge mark on the first few weeks of the ongoing Doubles Derby III (a teamtour with two natdex doubles slots), the council thinks the time is right for a Shadow Tag suspect. The council is choosing to suspect Shadow Tag rather than Gothitelle due to precedent and the fact that many of Gothitelle’s dominant traits can be replicated by its preevolutions, as shown in previous DOU formats (and Shadow Tag itself has always been the topic shown on surveys and in discussion, rather than Gothitelle).


As usual, 60% of the vote must be in favor to ban Shadow Tag.

NOTE: THIS TEST WILL BE USING THE NEW SUSPECT PROCESS!


The instructions to participate in this test are as follows:
  • Create a new account on PS. You do not have to follow any specific naming convention, but your suspect account must have never played a game in Natdex DOU before this suspect test went up or you will not receive valid requirements (resetting W/L does not count for this - the account you use must never have played DOU before the test, full stop.)
  • At any point on your new account, use the command /linksmogon on Pokemon Showdown! You will receive instructions on what to do once you run this command.
  • Double check that you're listed as a voter here! If you aren't listed as a voter despite having valid reqs, please contact myself, sealoo, or Runo, or a member of staff.
  • If you have any questions about this new process, feel free to PM Smudge , big pichu, or eragon - or post here!
The requirement to vote in this suspect test is a COIL value of 2900 (and a B value of 5 - you do not need to worry about this it is just for the formula).
The suspect laddering period is now underway and the deadline for getting requirements is Sunday, April 6th 6:00 PM Pacific Time (GMT-7).

Shadow Tag will be legal during this suspect.

Suspect Test Ladder Rules:
  • Laddering with an account that impersonates, mocks, or insults another Smogon user or breaks Pokemon Showdown! rules may be disqualified from voting and infracted. Moderator discretion will be applied here. If there is any doubt or hesitance when making the alt, just pick another name. There are infinite possibilities and we have had trouble for this repeatedly. If you wish to participate in the suspect, you should be able to exhibit decent enough judgement here. We will not be lenient.
  • We will be using the regular National Dex Doubles ladder for this suspect test. We will not be creating a new Suspect Ladder. At the beginning of every battle, there will be an announcement denoting the ongoing suspect with a link to this thread.
  • The element being tested, Shadow Tag, will be allowed on the ladder.
  • Any form of voting manipulation will result in swift and severe punishment. You are more than welcome to state your argument to as many people as you so please, but do not use any kind of underhanded tactics to get a result you desire. Bribery, blackmail, or any other type of tactic used to sway votes will be handled and sanctioned.
  • Do not attempt to cheat the ladder. We will know if you did not actually achieve voting requisites, so don't do it. Harsh sanctions will be applied.
Discussion Thread Rules:
  • No unhelpful one liners nor uninformed posts;
  • No discussion on other potential suspects -- if you wish to discuss another Pokemon, we encourage you to do so in the metagame discussion thread, but this thread is strictly to discuss if Shadow Tag is banworthy or not - not other elements of the metagame;
  • No discussion on the suspect process -- this includes testing Shadow Tag vs other potential suspects;
  • Do not use the argument of broken checking broken. Should your argument rest on your opinion that banning the Pokemon or mechanic being tested in this suspect test will make a Pokemon or mechanic broken, overpowered, and/or uncompetitive; don't. If something needs to be banned because of the result this suspect, then so be it.
  • You are required to make respectful posts; Do not flame, belittle, or be disrespectful to users in this thread. While not everyone will read this post in its entirety nor will everyone have an informed opinion, please be sure not to be disrespectful. If there's an issue, bring it up to a moderator.
  • Failure to follow these simple guidelines will result in your post being deleted and infracted without any prior warning.
Sample Teams
 
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I will be voting ban. Shadow tag has always been the most broken Ability in pokemon, and goth having both fake out and psychium z gives it too many safe options. Most goth teams are fundamentally built on the idea of trapping incin and taunting it, or trapping rilla in with a faster killer like heatran or mega mence. The other limited counterplay options are typically very easy to mitigate simply by not leading goth into them, and forcing a more unfavorable trap later in the game.

This mechanic is fully uncompetitive and has made the tier such a chore to play since people started running goth weather teams.
 
Leaning DNB rn.
we have UNGODLY amounts of Shadow tag counterplay, like U-turn, smacking tf out of the gothitelle, Parting shot, Ghost types, ghost types smacking the hell out of gothitelle, out-offensing or out-defensing the Gothitelle lineup, like Gothitelle is a skill-demanding pokémon, that is not overpowered or unhealthy. It's a good neat strat. I once faced Entrainment Truant Durant with Gothitelle with QD sweeper VOlc in the back, and still won by out-offensing it, with mons that dont even have Gothitelle-specific MUs. tbh I feel like action on Blursa or stuff is more important and ND WCoP is Coming with ND DOU slots that should give us a clear answer, and Goth is not even trending rn like nothing is wrong with it.
 
and Goth is not even trending rn like nothing is wrong with it.
I may address the rest of your post at some point, but this is factually incorrect. It's also winning a majority of the games it's brought to.

Over the first two weeks of Derby:

| 4 | Gothitelle | 6 | 25.00% | 66.67% |
flutter_mane.png
National Dex Doubles
flutter_mane.png

Code:
+ ---- + ------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| Rank | Pokemon            | Use  | Usage % |  Win %  |
+ ---- + ------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| 1    | Flutter Mane       |   11 |  45.83% |  45.45% |
| 2    | Rillaboom          |    8 |  33.33% |  50.00% |
| 2    | Iron Hands         |    8 |  33.33% |  50.00% |
| 4    | Heatran            |    6 |  25.00% |  83.33% |
| 4    | Gothitelle         |    6 |  25.00% |  66.67% |
| 4    | Chien-Pao          |    6 |  25.00% |  66.67% |
| 4    | Amoonguss          |    6 |  25.00% |  50.00% |
| 4    | Raging Bolt        |    6 |  25.00% |  33.33% |
| 4    | Charizard          |    6 |  25.00% |  16.67% |
| 10   | Tornadus           |    5 |  20.83% |  80.00% |
| 10   | Marshadow          |    5 |  20.83% |  40.00% |
| 12   | Salamence          |    4 |  16.67% |  50.00% |
| 12   | Tapu Koko          |    4 |  16.67% |  50.00% |
| 12   | Gardevoir          |    4 |  16.67% |  50.00% |
| 12   | Diancie            |    4 |  16.67% |   0.00% |
| 16   | Landorus           |    3 |  12.50% | 100.00% |
| 16   | Mawile             |    3 |  12.50% | 100.00% |
| 16   | Incineroar         |    3 |  12.50% |  33.33% |
| 16   | Volcanion          |    3 |  12.50% |  33.33% |
| 16   | Landorus-Therian   |    3 |  12.50% |   0.00% |
| 21   | Zeraora            |    2 |   8.33% |  50.00% |
| 21   | Kyurem-Black       |    2 |   8.33% |  50.00% |
| 21   | Ogerpon-Cornerstone |    2 |   8.33% |  50.00% |
| 21   | Tapu Fini          |    2 |   8.33% |  50.00% |
| 21   | Tyranitar          |    2 |   8.33% |  50.00% |
| 21   | Dracovish          |    2 |   8.33% |  50.00% |
| 21   | Ogerpon-Hearthflame |    2 |   8.33% |  50.00% |
| 21   | Jirachi            |    2 |   8.33% |  50.00% |
| 21   | Dragonite          |    2 |   8.33% |  50.00% |
| 30   | Dragapult          |    1 |   4.17% | 100.00% |
| 30   | Aerodactyl         |    1 |   4.17% | 100.00% |
| 30   | Victini            |    1 |   4.17% | 100.00% |
| 30   | Roaring Moon       |    1 |   4.17% | 100.00% |
| 30   | Kangaskhan         |    1 |   4.17% | 100.00% |
| 30   | Ursaluna           |    1 |   4.17% | 100.00% |
| 30   | Gouging Fire       |    1 |   4.17% | 100.00% |
| 30   | Kingdra            |    1 |   4.17% | 100.00% |
| 30   | Politoed           |    1 |   4.17% | 100.00% |
| 30   | Archaludon         |    1 |   4.17% | 100.00% |
| 30   | Scizor             |    1 |   4.17% | 100.00% |
| 30   | Camerupt           |    1 |   4.17% |   0.00% |
| 30   | Porygon2           |    1 |   4.17% |   0.00% |
| 30   | Smeargle           |    1 |   4.17% |   0.00% |
| 30   | Farigiraf          |    1 |   4.17% |   0.00% |
| 30   | Celesteela         |    1 |   4.17% |   0.00% |
| 30   | Gholdengo          |    1 |   4.17% |   0.00% |
| 30   | Ting-Lu            |    1 |   4.17% |   0.00% |
| 30   | Deoxys-Attack      |    1 |   4.17% |   0.00% |
| 30   | Indeedee-F         |    1 |   4.17% |   0.00% |
| 30   | Walking Wake       |    1 |   4.17% |   0.00% |
| 30   | Tapu Lele          |    1 |   4.17% |   0.00% |


This usage is extremely outsized compared to previous eras of the tier, even the Circuit Championship which ran in December.
| 36 | Gothitelle | 3 | 4.05% | 33.33% |
salamence.png
???
salamence.png

Code:
+ ---- + ------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| Rank | Pokemon            | Use  | Usage % |  Win %  |
+ ---- + ------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| 1    | Salamence          |   35 |  47.30% |  51.43% |
| 2    | Rillaboom          |   26 |  35.14% |  61.54% |
| 3    | Tapu Fini          |   22 |  29.73% |  40.91% |
| 4    | Flutter Mane       |   21 |  28.38% |  61.90% |
| 5    | Incineroar         |   20 |  27.03% |  60.00% |
| 6    | Chien-Pao          |   19 |  25.68% |  31.58% |
| 7    | Stakataka          |   16 |  21.62% |  62.50% |
| 7    | Amoonguss          |   16 |  21.62% |  50.00% |
| 9    | Tornadus           |   14 |  18.92% |  42.86% |
| 10   | Landorus           |   12 |  16.22% |  58.33% |
| 10   | Diancie            |   12 |  16.22% |  50.00% |
| 10   | Iron Hands         |   12 |  16.22% |  41.67% |
| 10   | Heatran            |   12 |  16.22% |  33.33% |
| 14   | Jirachi            |   11 |  14.86% |  81.82% |
| 15   | Volcanion          |   10 |  13.51% |  50.00% |
| 16   | Raging Bolt        |    9 |  12.16% |  44.44% |
| 17   | Sinistcha          |    8 |  10.81% |  75.00% |
| 18   | Xurkitree          |    7 |   9.46% |  71.43% |
| 18   | Kartana            |    7 |   9.46% |  14.29% |
| 18   | Marshadow          |    7 |   9.46% |   0.00% |
| 21   | Archaludon         |    6 |   8.11% |  66.67% |
| 21   | Charizard          |    6 |   8.11% |  66.67% |
| 21   | Gardevoir          |    6 |   8.11% |  33.33% |
| 24   | Kangaskhan         |    5 |   6.76% |  80.00% |
| 24   | Gouging Fire       |    5 |   6.76% |  40.00% |
| 24   | Landorus-Therian   |    5 |   6.76% |  40.00% |
| 24   | Kingambit          |    5 |   6.76% |  20.00% |
| 24   | Mawile             |    5 |   6.76% |  20.00% |
| 24   | Indeedee-F         |    5 |   6.76% |   0.00% |
| 30   | Dracovish          |    4 |   5.41% | 100.00% |
| 30   | Kommo-o            |    4 |   5.41% |  75.00% |
| 30   | Zeraora            |    4 |   5.41% |  50.00% |
| 30   | Tyranitar          |    4 |   5.41% |  50.00% |
| 30   | Ogerpon-Hearthflame |    4 |   5.41% |  50.00% |
| 30   | Glimmora           |    4 |   5.41% |  25.00% |
| 36   | Politoed           |    3 |   4.05% | 100.00% |
| 36   | Ogerpon-Wellspring |    3 |   4.05% |  66.67% |
| 36   | Volcarona          |    3 |   4.05% |  66.67% |
| 36   | Mew                |    3 |   4.05% |  66.67% |
| 36   | Ting-Lu            |    3 |   4.05% |  66.67% |
| 36   | Gothitelle         |    3 |   4.05% |  33.33% |
| 36   | Kyurem-Black       |    3 |   4.05% |  33.33% |
| 36   | Gholdengo          |    3 |   4.05% |  33.33% |
| 36   | Basculegion        |    3 |   4.05% |  33.33% |
| 36   | Ogerpon-Cornerstone |    3 |   4.05% |  33.33% |
| 36   | Blastoise          |    3 |   4.05% |  33.33% |
| 36   | Tapu Lele          |    3 |   4.05% |   0.00% |
| 48   | Farigiraf          |    2 |   2.70% | 100.00% |
| 48   | Ninetales-Alola    |    2 |   2.70% |  50.00% |
| 48   | Zapdos             |    2 |   2.70% |  50.00% |
| 48   | Scizor             |    2 |   2.70% |  50.00% |
| 48   | Pelipper           |    2 |   2.70% |  50.00% |
| 48   | Ursaluna-Bloodmoon |    2 |   2.70% |  50.00% |
| 48   | Celesteela         |    2 |   2.70% |  50.00% |
| 48   | Ogerpon            |    2 |   2.70% |   0.00% |
| 56   | Cresselia          |    1 |   1.35% | 100.00% |
| 56   | Porygon2           |    1 |   1.35% | 100.00% |
| 56   | Kyurem             |    1 |   1.35% | 100.00% |
| 56   | Manectric          |    1 |   1.35% | 100.00% |
| 56   | Chi-Yu             |    1 |   1.35% | 100.00% |
| 56   | Zapdos-Galar       |    1 |   1.35% | 100.00% |
| 56   | Meloetta           |    1 |   1.35% | 100.00% |
| 56   | Swampert           |    1 |   1.35% | 100.00% |
| 56   | Ferrothorn         |    1 |   1.35% | 100.00% |
| 56   | Terrakion          |    1 |   1.35% | 100.00% |
| 56   | Wo-Chien           |    1 |   1.35% | 100.00% |
| 56   | Moltres            |    1 |   1.35% | 100.00% |
| 56   | Venusaur           |    1 |   1.35% | 100.00% |
| 56   | Dracozolt          |    1 |   1.35% |   0.00% |
| 56   | Deoxys-Attack      |    1 |   1.35% |   0.00% |
| 56   | Grimmsnarl         |    1 |   1.35% |   0.00% |
| 56   | Sinistcha-Masterpiece |    1 |   1.35% |   0.00% |
| 56   | Pheromosa          |    1 |   1.35% |   0.00% |
| 56   | Ursaluna           |    1 |   1.35% |   0.00% |
| 56   | Hoopa-Unbound      |    1 |   1.35% |   0.00% |
| 56   | Aerodactyl         |    1 |   1.35% |   0.00% |
| 56   | Regidrago          |    1 |   1.35% |   0.00% |
| 56   | Lucario            |    1 |   1.35% |   0.00% |
| 56   | Dragonite          |    1 |   1.35% |   0.00% |

I will be voting ban on Shadow Tag. I've wanted this out of this tier for over a year and I'm glad we've somehow finally collectively realized it's uncompetitive and has no place in the tier.

P.S.

I'll also remind you that posting this is not allowed - it's at least the second time you've done it in a suspect thread, next time it's an infraction.
I feel like action on Blursa or stuff is more important

No discussion on other potential suspects -- if you wish to discuss another Pokemon, we encourage you to do so in the metagame discussion thread, but this thread is strictly to discuss if Shadow Tag is banworthy or not - not other elements of the metagame;
 
As it stands now, I am going to vote to keep Shadow Tag in Natdex Doubles.

Gothitelle (the only relevant user of Shadow Tag right now) is rarely used on ladder. The usage stats are so low that you could easily get reqs for the Shadow Tag suspect test without having to deal with Shadow Tag.

And as pointed out earlier in this thread Gothitelle has an abundance of counters, many of them so viable that they are even common on a ladder where Gothitelle is barely used (i.e. the PS Natdex Doubles ladder).

Shadow tag is not restrictive in team builder, it is not overpowered, it is not luck-based, and it does not fish for match-ups. It barely is a thing to prepare for on ladder since you will rarily see it used and will likely pack counters against Gothitelle accidentally anyway. I am not saying it is bad, but it definitely can be played around like any other decent competitive strategy. Banning Shadow Tag would just be needlessy banning a viable competitive option.
 
Ban Gothitelle (shadow tag).

Gothitelle has too many possible applications to too many teams- it's very difficult to cover for this pokemon in a competitive tournament setting and removing is a step in the right direction. It might not have the highest usage rate or be overtly broken in the same way as something like Stakataka but the issue here more comes from Gothitelle amplifying matchup advantages and making winning matchups borderline unusable. If Gothitelle could do that while only being good on like one team maybe that'd be one thing, but we've seen Gothitelle be strong on almost every major archetype in the format. Banning shadow tag will greatly improve the competitive integrity of the tier so I will be voting to ban my favorite ability.
 
I'll also remind you that posting this is not allowed - it's at least the second time you've done it in a suspect thread, next time it's an infraction.
I'm sorry I forgot about that

And yea I didn't check tour usage, I had no Idea derby was going on, my bad on this one too.



I think Shadow tag has decent counterplay and there are very strong strong ghost types, most notably Flutter mane and marshadow. but Tera ghost is also incredibly strong in Doubles, and Gothitelle is the only good user of shadow tag. Obviously it lets strong techs exist, but so does Rain, and it's not unhealthy. Gothitelle has respectable Bulk and good support movepool, but no heal, no breaking power, and needs its partner to REALLY put in work to be efficient. Moreover, there is no RNG or uncompetitiveness in Shadow tag Beyind Gothitelle's Psychic Sp.Def drops. Shadow Tag is imo a competitive, strong yet very okay currrently. 1 active mon can only be so dangerous, and Gothitelle is not a monster of longevity. Gothitelle has utility for sure, but Not anything groundbreaking.
Ban Gothitelle (shadow tag).

Gothitelle has too many possible applications to too many teams- it's very difficult to cover for this pokemon in a competitive tournament setting and removing is a step in the right direction. It might not have the highest usage rate or be overtly broken in the same way as something like Stakataka but the issue here more comes from Gothitelle amplifying matchup advantages and making winning matchups borderline unusable. If Gothitelle could do that while only being good on like one team maybe that'd be one thing, but we've seen Gothitelle be strong on almost every major archetype in the format. Banning shadow tag will greatly improve the competitive integrity of the tier so I will be voting to ban my favorite ability.
Homie
I got top 5 With Z trick room Wyrdeer like that's a strong tech Not a Gothitelle or shadow tag issue that's cope.
Gothitelle is Not more MU fishy than the next mon, does Not imply more RNG than the next mon, and is Not the best nor unhealthiest support in the tier.
That is all.
 
Topped the ladder with a Rain Perish Team that I built 7 years ago for a VGC format. The problem most certainly isn't Shadow Tag, the problem is people are straight booty cheeks in the builder and are being punished for it. Tera Ghost is the most common tera, Ghost types pretty much in general are strong and plentiful, and switch moves are on nearly every team, AND you actually have access to all 6 of your Pokemon (VGC Players removing their ankle weights). There's no excuse, banning it is just weak sauce lol.

Voting no. Build better, play better.
 

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Topped the ladder with a Rain Perish Team that I built 7 years ago for a VGC format. The problem most certainly isn't Shadow Tag, the problem is people are straight booty cheeks in the builder and are being punished for it. Tera Ghost is the most common tera, Ghost types pretty much in general are strong and plentiful, and switch moves are on nearly every team, AND you actually have access to all 6 of your Pokemon (VGC Players removing their ankle weights). There's no excuse, banning it is just weak sauce lol.

Voting no. Build better, play better.
Please keep in mind that suspects are based mostly off of tournament play. the disparity between ladder play quality and tournament play quality is really large. You should keep an eye out for the next tournament to get a better idea of what popular teams look like and maybe you'll see the issue
 
Please keep in mind that suspects are based mostly off of tournament play. the disparity between ladder play quality and tournament play quality is really large. You should keep an eye out for the next tournament to get a better idea of what popular teams look like and maybe you'll see the issue
I'm a VGC player. We don't ban things, we build around them. Shadow Tag may have very successful tournament results, that doesn't surprise me at all, but banning it because its good isn't a solution, and I feel its impossible to consider a strat "broken" when there's so much counterplay available.

If your team is weak to Shadow Tag, its a bad team and was never worthy of winning a tournament to begin with.

Edit: Also consider at the end of the day, this is a competitive community. "They shouldn't be allowed to use this" is a very poor competitive mindset to "Alright how can I improve this matchup".

One breeds confidence and helps progress the format, the other robs players of unique playstyles and team comps to learn to overcome.
 
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For all I know, that aint shadow tag. Not because it's Not a character, But because shadow tag has viable and common counterplay. I agree that we should ban things here and There, But shadow tag is a victim of sudden tour results + history of being broken. We have one (1) real abuser of shadow tag, and it's... Gothitelle... Like sure it's got fake out But so does purrugly, and that's about it. Gothitelle isn't frail, but it aint surviving Chian-pao, Marsh, flutter, chiyu, heck, even Yard sun gives it a Hard time staying alive. It gets obloterated by taunt, It gets mauled offensively by half the tier (rilla wood hammer smacks It too, and such a mon on the field actually hinders shadow tag because you have to abuse It With one and a half mons on the field vs 2 that might smack both of yous, might Not even be trapped, might outspeed OHKO yous, and honestly I dont find anything uncompetitive avout shadow tag, it's a victim of circumstances that led to its sus
 
Voting no ban because gothitelle is not strong realy, in nddou exist so many checks to gothitelle (the shadow tag usser). U turn, parting shot, Ghost types, tera Ghost, flip turn etc.
252 SpA Beads of Ruin Chi-Yu Overheat vs. 252 HP / 80 SpD Gothitelle in Sun: 373-441 (108.4 - 128.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Beads of Ruin Chi-Yu Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 80 SpD Gothitelle: 306-362 (88.9 - 105.2%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
196 Atk Aerilate Salamence-Mega Frustration vs. 252 HP / 172+ Def Gothitelle: 168-198 (48.8 - 57.5%) -- 94.1% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Rillaboom Wood Hammer vs. 252 HP / 172+ Def Gothitelle in Grassy Terrain: 219-258 (63.6 - 75%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery
252 SpA Charizard-Mega-Y Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 80 SpD Gothitelle in Sun: 220-261 (63.9 - 75.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
 
Voting do not ban:

With Mega-Gengar already being banned, the only viable shadow tag mon is Gothitelle. Lacking the offensive presence of Mega-Gengar, Gothitelle is a bulky support mon that gets countered by a lot of things that should already be found on a well-built team:

- Pivoting moves (u-turn, volt switch, parting shot)
- Ghost types/Tera ghost
- Taunt

With all 6 pokemon available to use in this format, it only takes a few of these tools on a team to hard-check gothitelle. Having 2-3 pokemon with tools to address shadow tag makes this matchup very playable. These "concessions" are also generally helpful into a lot of strategies and can improve your ability into a lot of the meta. For example: pivoting moves can help gain tempo and punish your opponent, tera ghost provides an immunity to fake out, and taunt can lock down strategies such as Trick Room or Spore.

If a team does not have the tools to beat a shadow tag gothitelle, it is a poorly constructed team which would likely struggle into common archetypes. Shadow tag is a strategy that is beaten in the team builder (before the game even starts), and this ban would reward less skillful teambuilding that fails to acknowledge this.
 
The tone deafness of this thread is actually insane. I don’t even play this tier but man, I don’t know how anyone would vote do not ban seeing the arguments that focus on insulting the players more than the actual element being suspected. Please be more respectful and try to look into the deeper side of things, one quick ladder run will not provide you with a concrete opinion; how about some tournament replays/proof instead?
 
If you only play this tier on ladder you simply do not play the tier at a high enough level to have an informed opinion on the topic. I hate to come out swinging like that but it really needs to be said because I think some people are underestimating this Pokemon's potential based on low quality ladder games and questionable usage statistics.

It is true that you can use pivot moves, but these are actions you must take on the turn which means you are potentially acting after Gothitelle/its partner, hopefully you see the issue there. You can use Taunt... until it reveals either Mental Herb or Psychium Z, both some of the better items for it. You may also use Tera Ghost, however, that is a pivotal resource to spend to switch out of Shadow Tag, not to mention that it takes an additional turn before you are given the option to switch.

As for the VGC argument: this is a Smogon Doubles tier, things are fundamentally different here. 6 Pokemon changes a lot about how the game is played, namely relevant to Gothitelle you are cutting off way more resources that the opponent intended to have smooth access to while teambuilding. To add onto this, we are playing in a National Dex environment which currently operates at a higher power level than anything VGC is used to. Almost every threatening pokemon becomes even stronger when added next to Gothitelle, and with the power level as high as it is in this tier I am convinced Gothitelle should be banned. I urge those of you that have only played the tier on ladder to peruse some tournament replays or chat with some of the tier's active tournament players on discord.
 
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gothitelle is completely gamebreaking, and i didn't realize people needed that spelled out for them. to help illustrate my point, i'll share what i think is the strongest current team in natdex dou, which helps illustrate why gothitelle is broken! if you'd like to use this team on ladder, go for it, and then vote ban!

https://pokepast.es/91e12184a07f3006

this team is pretty sick, imo. raging bolt in terrain and/or sun can ohko a lot of pokemon, iron hands in terrain is cracked, zard with speed control is able to run over most neutral targets, and koko can shoot a guy if there's a problem that needs to be removed. the main terrain resetters are fini and rillaboom, who both get nuked by one of the team's axes (electric or fire, respectively). the main weather resetters are pelipper and tyranitar, who get cleared out by electric types or iron hands. however, these trades all require gothitelle in order to be executed, otherwise the opponent is free to switch out and ruin our day.

natdex dou is filled with pokemon who are gamebreaking under the right conditions. many of them are tied to field effects (dracozolt, dracovish, archaludon, deoxys-a or any other expanding force user, sun abusers) and they're otherwise underwhelming, and gothitelle breaks all of them because it allows the user to remove the opponent's counterplay and then go to town. banning the payoff mons misses the point; these mons are only broken when they're in their element, and natdex dou is supposed to be a playground where you run your brokens into other people's brokens. gothitelle is the kid on the playground who holds your hands behind your back while the bully beats you up. it's inherently an unfair fight; there is nothing you could do to fight back.

Voting no ban because gothitelle is not strong realy, in nddou exist so many checks to gothitelle (the shadow tag usser). U turn, parting shot, Ghost types, tera Ghost, flip turn etc.
252 SpA Beads of Ruin Chi-Yu Overheat vs. 252 HP / 80 SpD Gothitelle in Sun: 373-441 (108.4 - 128.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Beads of Ruin Chi-Yu Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 80 SpD Gothitelle: 306-362 (88.9 - 105.2%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
196 Atk Aerilate Salamence-Mega Frustration vs. 252 HP / 172+ Def Gothitelle: 168-198 (48.8 - 57.5%) -- 94.1% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Rillaboom Wood Hammer vs. 252 HP / 172+ Def Gothitelle in Grassy Terrain: 219-258 (63.6 - 75%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery
252 SpA Charizard-Mega-Y Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 80 SpD Gothitelle in Sun: 220-261 (63.9 - 75.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

not trying to pick on this person specifically, just using them as a proxy to respond to everyone who has said that u-turn is a gothitelle answer.
  • you can't u-turn to save a mon if it dies first
  • you can't u-turn to save a mon if you're getting faked out
  • the point of gothitelle is not trapping for the sake of trapping, it's trapping for the sake of targeted removal of specific problematic mons
  • spending tera ghost on a mon to save it from goth 1) is very slow, 2) is a significant investment, 3) usually will nerf its effectiveness in the matchup (tera ghost tyranitar is much less effective at checking zard-y, etc). it can be worth doing anyways, because gothitelle is oppressive enough that gimping your mon is still the best path forward.
the counterplay options given in this thread are all cope, they don't actually win games against well constructed goth teams.

I'm a VGC player. We don't ban things, we build around them. Shadow Tag may have very successful tournament results, that doesn't surprise me at all, but banning it because its good isn't a solution, and I feel its impossible to consider a strat "broken" when there's so much counterplay available.

If your team is weak to Shadow Tag, its a bad team and was never worthy of winning a tournament to begin with.

Edit: Also consider at the end of the day, this is a competitive community. "They shouldn't be allowed to use this" is a very poor competitive mindset to "Alright how can I improve this matchup".

One breeds confidence and helps progress the format, the other robs players of unique playstyles and team comps to learn to overcome.

i'm a vgc player too! the point of banning things isn't admitting weakness, it's that the format is less interesting when there are clear power outliers. "use them or lose to them" isn't the peak of competitive balance, actually! i think that 2v2 pokemon has the greatest resilience to broken factors out of any game that i've played (i've got a lot of competitive gaming experience), but that fact doesn't mean that we can't make the game better by removing problematic elements. urshifu is banned in this format while it terrorizes vgc, just like it has since the day it was released. dou and vgc should not be treated the same.
 
so people have no excuse to base it solely off ladder play. Also I am bad, but I will desperately try to make reqs.

Build better, play better.
That sounds great! let's look at the best builders and players in the tier!

SeaLife vs Terekusai
:charizard-mega-x::flutter-mane::farigiraf::ogerpon-cornerstone::Tapu-Fini::landorus-therian: vs :Charizard-mega-y::Tapu-Koko::iron-hands::gothitelle::flutter-mane::raging-bolt:

First, we have SeaLife and Terekusai, Sea Life has brought Landorus-T and Flutter Mane to "beat Gothitelle." On Turn 4, we see Gothitelle switch into the duo of Flutter Mane and Ogerpon-Wellspring. Well, oh golly, you beat Gothitelle with Flutter Mane! right?
The opposing Gothitelle used Fake Out!
It's not very effective...
(Ogerpon lost 3% of its health!)

Flutter Mane used Shadow Ball!
It's super effective!
(The opposing Gothitelle lost 57% of its health!)
(The opposing Gothitelle ate its Sitrus Berry!)
The opposing Gothitelle restored HP using its Sitrus Berry!

Ogerpon flinched and couldn't move!

The opposing Iron Hands used Drain Punch!
It's super effective!
(Ogerpon lost 97% of its health!)
Ogerpon had its energy drained!

Ogerpon fainted!
SeaLife lost one of their best defensive checks to the other Electric types that Terekusai brought, and a good offensive checks to Zard-Y. But they still have Lando-T and Zard-X!!! Yes, but Lando-T has to also be able to beat Zard-Y at the same time, and Zard-X doesn’t have the best match-up into Bolt and Koko. And let’s say Cornerstone had U-Turn to beat Gothitelle, Gothitelle still had fake out!

LogIce vs eragon
:rillaboom::Diancie::zeraora::gholdengo::salamence-mega::ting-Lu: vs :Mawile-mega::gothitelle::rillaboom::victini::roaring-moon::flutter-mane:

So LogIce has Ting-Lu and Gholdengo to “beat Gothitelle.” Gholdengo is KOed on Turn 7 by Mega Mawile. Then Gothitelle is brought out Turn 10, next to Mega Mawile. This allows for even if you want to U-Turn or Volt Switch, eragon could just KO one of those Pokemon with Sucker Punch. Ting-Lu could just be KOed by Play Rough. So Gothitelle enables the win for eragon, and rises above its own counterplay.

Spurrific vs SeaLife
:deoxys-attack::indeedee-f::walking-wake::Charizard-mega-y::Tapu-lele::flutter-mane: vs :salamence-mega::marshadow::rillaboom::volcanion::gothitelle::Ursaluna:

So Spurrific brings Flutter Mane and two really strong attackers in Walking Wake and ZardY to “beat Gothitelle.” They also bring psy terrain, which gets rid of fake out. The Indeedee also has imprision. Ig Z-Trick Room breaks through it tho! Because now Gothitelle traps, with Ursaluna, and trick room up. And then Gothitelle puts Flutter Mane, its biggest check according to y’all, asleep with Hypnosis. Ursaluna proceeds to rampage through Spurrific’s team as Gothitelle spams Hypnosis.

eragon vs Nails
:volcanion::salamence-mega::flutter-mane::rillaboom::Diancie::landorus-therian: vs :scizor-mega::Tapu-Fini::Gothitelle::Chien-Pao::flutter-mane::Dragonite:

Eragon brings Flutter Mane and Lando-T as ways to get around Gothitelle. On Turn 4, we actually see eragon use one of the ways to “manuver around Gothitelle” by switching out Flutter and brings in Lando-T. However, Dragonite has already used Tera Normal and starting killing stuff. Even something like Volcanion, who has great physical bulk, because of Helping Hand. Dragonite proceeded to KO Lando-T before getting KOed by Diancie. However, the damage was done, Volcanion was a great check to Scizor, Tapu Fini, and Chien-Pao, but because it was unable to switch out, Gothitelle severely hindered eragon’s ability to win the game.

Hopefully this brings some much needed tour perspective. I do think it’s a little unfair to say that ladder shouldn’t be considered when making tiering decisions; HOWEVER, in this type of smaller meta, ladder doesn’t reflect the meta whatsoever. I mean like:
Topped the ladder with a Rain Perish Team that I built 7 years ago for a VGC format.
I feel like the current DNB players should at least watch these tournaments games, please.
 
just don’t play into goth smh
I would like to state that I am not a NDDOU main and first got into it around when the Stak suspect started. I am however a avid VGC player so I have doubles knowledge.

I am currently on the fence between DNB and Ban.

DNB is tantalizing to me for many reasons, with some being the fact that destroying noobs with Gothitelle is very funny. Shadow Tag funny

Babis probably stronger because of what said above, so I won’t steal anyone’s thunder.

Also is it just me or does this conversation feel more like a Gothitelle discussion over a Shadow Tag discussion? I get that it is the primary user of the ability but I feel this feels like a Gothitelle argument over a Shadow Tag debate.

Bye gamers
 
So if I understand correctly Stag is sus'd solely bc of tour play.
Tour play where it's neither the most used nor the one with the highest winrate.
Look-- this ain't singles. You need the opp to misplay/have TERRIBLE MU for it to be strong.
the "strongest team" argument is Bizarre because why would Goth be the only broken one here??
The replays are fun, but that's just how Doubles work. at high play, you'll have your mons KO Each other's checks, and obviously Using strong megas with a strong support gon be strong. Goth ain't broken, it's strong
 
Edit: Also consider at the end of the day, this is a competitive community. "They shouldn't be allowed to use this" is a very poor competitive mindset to "Alright how can I improve this matchup".
This statement applies to only VGC. Pokemon that are inherently broken in tournament play and have complete control over the meta tend to get banned. It's not just " oh, build around it. You'll figure it out". Building around it doesn't do much either because those other teams will evolve as well. It in fact is not a poor competitive mindset. A poor competitive mindset would be seeing a threat and quitting.
If your team is weak to Shadow Tag, its a bad team and was never worthy of winning a tournament to begin with.
This statement is baffling, as anything could be weak to Shadow Tag. The variability and versatility of it is what people want to get banned. People want it banned not because they have a bad matchup, but rather because it is unhealthy for the tier.

I'm a VGC player. We don't ban things, we build around them. Shadow Tag may have very successful tournament results, that doesn't surprise me at all, but banning it because its good isn't a solution, and I feel its impossible to consider a strat "broken" when there's so much counterplay available.
I have two issues with this. First is that you are trying to represent the whole entire VGC community. As stated before, some VGC mainstays in the space such as nails and zee believe that Shadow Tag is broken. This should not influence your vote, but trying to take the whole VGC community by the horns and lead it into this argument feels wrong.

The second issue I have is that you mention that there is counterplay but fail to name that counterplay.

With that all said and done, I have officially chosen sides and have decided to join the ban side of this debate. I don't want to come off as rude or anything, sorry for the rant and don't mean to discredit you NatuaPKMN.

Have a good day!
 
Lmao damn I've been getting cooked in here. Happy to admit my brash approach to stating my opinions on the subject was a bit too much. I'm an avid Shadow Tag user who has been building teams with it for many years now across multiple generations of competitive doubles. I've made conceded Shadow Tag throughout several Smogon formats that felt it was too much for the tier, to my chagrin.

That said, with a format like this where the power level is so crazy high, and the counterplay seemingly plentiful, I got my hopes up that perhaps the player base would conceded a place for Shadow Tag among the rest of the metagame. Even on ladder, I've been able to play some crazy good Pokemon after my opponent decides to reveal a well positioned Tera Ghost that completely throws off my Perish Trap. I very much wish I'd been an active member of this tournament scene long before this suspect test so I could have that first hand experience. I would've likely helped lead to it being tested much sooner :bat:

I've read through everyone's reasoning, including my fellow VGC goats with whom I harbor a great deal of respect for, and yet from personal experience in using Shadow Tag I still 100% believe the currently format is more than well equipped to deal with/thrive into Gothitelle comps. I'm sure its difficult/annoying for many players, but that's a challenge I'd rather rise up to meet.

I appreciate the discourse, and respect everyone's opinion. I'm very much looking forward to whatever result the vote yields.

I hope everyone enjoys their evening!
 
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