Announcement np: BDSP OU Suspect Process, Round 3 - Ghost Town

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Le Don

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It's no secret that :Gengar: has been terrorizing the metagame with many teams finding themselves completely incapable of switching into its Choice Specs Shadow Ball, being outrun and revenge killed by the Choice Scarf variant, or broken through by a +2 Life Orb Shadow Ball/Sludge Bomb/Focus Blast. While previous attempts to safely check these wide variety of offensive options have produced inconsistent gimmicks such as Shadow Ball :blissey: today I'd like to bring attention to a reliable, consistent answer to Gengar that maintains usefulness even outside of beating Gengar

:ss/muk:
MUK

252 SpA Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Muk: 94-112 (22.7 - 27%) -- possible 5HKO after Black Sludge recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Muk: 142-168 (34.2 - 40.5%) -- 49.5% chance to 3HKO after Black Sludge recovery +2 252 SpA Life Orb Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Muk: 246-290 (59.4 - 70%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 16+ SpD Muk: 304-359 (73.4 - 86.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 88+ SpD Muk: 163-193 (39.3 - 46.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery
4 Atk Muk Payback (100 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gengar: 228-270 (87.3 - 103.4%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
12 Atk Muk Payback (100 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gengar: 230-272 (88.1 - 104.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
156 Atk Muk Payback (100 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gengar: 262-310 (100.3 - 118.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
56+ Atk Muk Payback (100 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gengar: 264-312 (101.1 - 119.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 248 HP / 188 SpD Muk: 163-193 (39.4 - 46.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery

Credits to: 6Roggenrolas, Lord Falinks, AstilCodex, bhkg, 1q2q, jojoreference4444, Had Sweep, and Woopre for their contributions to finding and exploring Muk

The key asset that allows Muk to serve as a legitimate answer to Gengar is its massive base 105 HP and Special Defense along with its access to Payback which has a chance to OHKO Gengar even from uninvested Muk and can be guaranteed with minimal investment and/or chip damage from Stealth Rock or Gengar's own Life Orb. With this Muk manages to reliably switch into any variant of Gengar reliably regardless of the set and pose a serious threat to Gengar in return. This is an achievement not even Calm Mind or Shadow Ball Blissey can boast but why do we care? After all a one trick pony who can only threaten 1 specific Pokémon will always be an inconsistent matchup fishing gimmick that can by no means be argued to be an answer to a potentially problematic Pokémon so what makes Muk different? Well what makes Muk different is quite simple, not only does Muk not require anywhere near maximum investment to answer Gengar allowing it a great deal of flexibility to explore its options outside of Payback but those options also allow it to both answer and threaten a large variety of common metagames staples meaning Muk can remain useful against many of Gengar's partners and teams that don't even have Gengar to begin with.

Seeing as Muks primary asset is its defensive utility we'll start there. Defensively Muk can find many switch in opportunities against common metagame threats such as any variant of Blissey, Breloom, Clefable, Gengar, Magnezone, Roserade, Rotom-Wash (so long as Muk is Sticky Hold), Scizor, Skarmory, Tangrowth, and Togekiss along with most variants of Empoleon, Jirachi, and Heatran,. While this is quite an long list of switch in opportunities that doesn't mean much if Muk can't make anything out of those opportunities. Thankfully Muk's surprisingly deep movepool and flexibility in its EV spread grant it a vast and quite unpredictable list of offensive pressuring methods to threaten the opposing team.

Offensively Muk has the obvious poison STAB in either Poison Jab or Gunk Shot which allow it the threaten the fairies that have risen in response to the potent dragon type onslaught and the bulky grasses such as Tangrowth and Roserade that rose in response to the rise of offensive waters with Poison Jab even having a synergistic combo along side the Poison Touch ability giving it an effective 51% poison rate pressuring even the neutral targets that may try to switch in. As for the coverage Muk has access to Brick Break, Power-Up-Punch, and Focus Punch to punish the steels which may believe Muk is a free switch for them with Brick Break being the reliable option and Focus Punch being more prediction reliant. However given the passivity of most steels and their assumption of safety Focus Punch can be used for a more immediate punish even if you don't call the steel on switch in. That being said not all steels fear fighting move however the only 3 OU steels that posses this quality are Scizor, Skarmory, and Jirachi with Skarmory's need to roost making it vulnerable to fighting moves and Jirachi (as well as the rare Brongzong and Metagross) being punishable by the required Payback. This leaves only Scizor as a steel safe to switch in regardless of prediction.

Or it would if it wasn't for Fire Blast Muk! Now while this seems gimmicky and unreliable Muk actually has just enough Special Attack to 2HKO maximum Special Defense Scizor even with 0 Special Attack investment and a Careful/Adamant nature while also OHKOing the rare fast Swords Dance variant if Muk runs a -Speed Nature such as Sassy, Brave, or even Quiet. Quiet may sound like an odd choice for Muk however running Quiet not only helps the power of Fire Blast but also maximizes the healing of Giga Drain which Muk can use to hit waters (primarily Rotom-Wash) for decent damage even uninvested, but more importantly aids in Muk's unfortunately lacking recovery which is otherwise limited to Rest+Sleep Talk variants or requires support from a teammate which could simply be Wish support or the Rest 3 attacks variant having an Aromatherapy or Heal Bell user or (both of which can be provided by an already excellent Pokémon in Clefable). These are all the primary options we have been able to find for Muk however Muk also possess many other utility options which others may find use for in Haze, Disable, Explosion, Memento, Taunt, and priority Shadow Sneak as well as a handful of other coverage options which will allow Muk to continue adapting to the changing metagame around it.

While that was quiet a long tangent away from Gengar it again shows the capabilities of Muk outside of simply switching into any Gengar and proves that a team using Muk to answer Gengar is not handicapping themselves with some matchup fishing gimmick but is instead utilizing the unique attributes of a truly reliable and threatening Pokémon who holds its own place in the metagame on some of the best playstyles around such as Stall, Bulky Offense, Balance, and even Hyper Offense pivoting into a Gengar seeking the revenge KO and either attacking back or using Memento to allow something like Swords Dance Lucario to safely set up an potentially sweep the opposing team.

As clear as it is that Muk has a genuine place in the metagame allowing teams to switch into Gengar without requiring something as passive and hard to fit for certain playstyles as Blissey it still remains to be seen if this newly discovered threat will be enough to stop Gengar's currently ongoing slaughter. After all Muk is by no means flawless with its awkward recovery options and inability to touch the currently #2 in usage Gliscor requiring its team to keep these limitations in mind and preventing Muk from being mindlessly slapped onto just any team. In spite of this I believe Muk is currently the best option to create a metagame where Gengar can remain in BDSP OU.
nice meme bro:worrywhirl:
 

TyCarter

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It's no secret that :Gengar: has been terrorizing the metagame with many teams finding themselves completely incapable of switching into its Choice Specs Shadow Ball, being outrun and revenge killed by the Choice Scarf variant, or broken through by a +2 Life Orb Shadow Ball/Sludge Bomb/Focus Blast. While previous attempts to safely check these wide variety of offensive options have produced inconsistent gimmicks such as Shadow Ball :blissey: today I'd like to bring attention to a reliable, consistent answer to Gengar that maintains usefulness even outside of beating Gengar

:ss/muk:
MUK

252 SpA Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Muk: 94-112 (22.7 - 27%) -- possible 5HKO after Black Sludge recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Muk: 142-168 (34.2 - 40.5%) -- 49.5% chance to 3HKO after Black Sludge recovery +2 252 SpA Life Orb Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Muk: 246-290 (59.4 - 70%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 16+ SpD Muk: 304-359 (73.4 - 86.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 88+ SpD Muk: 163-193 (39.3 - 46.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery
4 Atk Muk Payback (100 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gengar: 228-270 (87.3 - 103.4%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
12 Atk Muk Payback (100 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gengar: 230-272 (88.1 - 104.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
156 Atk Muk Payback (100 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gengar: 262-310 (100.3 - 118.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
56+ Atk Muk Payback (100 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gengar: 264-312 (101.1 - 119.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 248 HP / 188 SpD Muk: 163-193 (39.4 - 46.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery

Credits to: 6Roggenrolas, Lord Falinks, AstilCodex, bhkg, 1q2q, jojoreference4444, Had Sweep, and Woopre for their contributions to finding and exploring Muk

The key asset that allows Muk to serve as a legitimate answer to Gengar is its massive base 105 HP and Special Defense along with its access to Payback which has a chance to OHKO Gengar even from uninvested Muk and can be guaranteed with minimal investment and/or chip damage from Stealth Rock or Gengar's own Life Orb. With this Muk manages to reliably switch into any variant of Gengar reliably regardless of the set and pose a serious threat to Gengar in return. This is an achievement not even Calm Mind or Shadow Ball Blissey can boast but why do we care? After all a one trick pony who can only threaten 1 specific Pokémon will always be an inconsistent matchup fishing gimmick that can by no means be argued to be an answer to a potentially problematic Pokémon so what makes Muk different? Well what makes Muk different is quite simple, not only does Muk not require anywhere near maximum investment to answer Gengar allowing it a great deal of flexibility to explore its options outside of Payback but those options also allow it to both answer and threaten a large variety of common metagames staples meaning Muk can remain useful against many of Gengar's partners and teams that don't even have Gengar to begin with.

Seeing as Muks primary asset is its defensive utility we'll start there. Defensively Muk can find many switch in opportunities against common metagame threats such as any variant of Blissey, Breloom, Clefable, Gengar, Magnezone, Roserade, Rotom-Wash (so long as Muk is Sticky Hold), Scizor, Skarmory, Tangrowth, and Togekiss along with most variants of Empoleon, Jirachi, and Heatran,. While this is quite an long list of switch in opportunities that doesn't mean much if Muk can't make anything out of those opportunities. Thankfully Muk's surprisingly deep movepool and flexibility in its EV spread grant it a vast and quite unpredictable list of offensive pressuring methods to threaten the opposing team.

Offensively Muk has the obvious poison STAB in either Poison Jab or Gunk Shot which allow it the threaten the fairies that have risen in response to the potent dragon type onslaught and the bulky grasses such as Tangrowth and Roserade that rose in response to the rise of offensive waters with Poison Jab even having a synergistic combo along side the Poison Touch ability giving it an effective 51% poison rate pressuring even the neutral targets that may try to switch in. As for the coverage Muk has access to Brick Break, Power-Up-Punch, and Focus Punch to punish the steels which may believe Muk is a free switch for them with Brick Break being the reliable option and Focus Punch being more prediction reliant. However given the passivity of most steels and their assumption of safety Focus Punch can be used for a more immediate punish even if you don't call the steel on switch in. That being said not all steels fear fighting move however the only 3 OU steels that posses this quality are Scizor, Skarmory, and Jirachi with Skarmory's need to roost making it vulnerable to fighting moves and Jirachi (as well as the rare Brongzong and Metagross) being punishable by the required Payback. This leaves only Scizor as a steel safe to switch in regardless of prediction.

Or it would if it wasn't for Fire Blast Muk! Now while this seems gimmicky and unreliable Muk actually has just enough Special Attack to 2HKO maximum Special Defense Scizor even with 0 Special Attack investment and a Careful/Adamant nature while also OHKOing the rare fast Swords Dance variant if Muk runs a -Speed Nature such as Sassy, Brave, or even Quiet. Quiet may sound like an odd choice for Muk however running Quiet not only helps the power of Fire Blast but also maximizes the healing of Giga Drain which Muk can use to hit waters (primarily Rotom-Wash) for decent damage even uninvested, but more importantly aids in Muk's unfortunately lacking recovery which is otherwise limited to Rest+Sleep Talk variants or requires support from a teammate which could simply be Wish support or the Rest 3 attacks variant having an Aromatherapy or Heal Bell user or (both of which can be provided by an already excellent Pokémon in Clefable). These are all the primary options we have been able to find for Muk however Muk also possess many other utility options which others may find use for in Haze, Disable, Explosion, Memento, Taunt, and priority Shadow Sneak as well as a handful of other coverage options which will allow Muk to continue adapting to the changing metagame around it.

While that was quiet a long tangent away from Gengar it again shows the capabilities of Muk outside of simply switching into any Gengar and proves that a team using Muk to answer Gengar is not handicapping themselves with some matchup fishing gimmick but is instead utilizing the unique attributes of a truly reliable and threatening Pokémon who holds its own place in the metagame on some of the best playstyles around such as Stall, Bulky Offense, Balance, and even Hyper Offense pivoting into a Gengar seeking the revenge KO and either attacking back or using Memento to allow something like Swords Dance Lucario to safely set up an potentially sweep the opposing team.

As clear as it is that Muk has a genuine place in the metagame allowing teams to switch into Gengar without requiring something as passive and hard to fit for certain playstyles as Blissey it still remains to be seen if this newly discovered threat will be enough to stop Gengar's currently ongoing slaughter. After all Muk is by no means flawless with its awkward recovery options and inability to touch the currently #2 in usage Gliscor requiring its team to keep these limitations in mind and preventing Muk from being mindlessly slapped onto just any team. In spite of this I believe Muk is currently the best option to create a metagame where Gengar can remain in BDSP OU.
This whole post should be on Smogon's greatest hits tbh and I love it.

Edit: On a more serious note, I do think Gengar going would prob lead to shit like Lucario getting out of hand and espeed spam being even stronger and at first I did think it was an obvious ban. However, I also realized if Gengar goes, it does give the tier a bit more flexibility and would prob create a butterfly effect for other stuff becoming potentially too much but that's just speculation on my end. The scariest part about gengar is usually trying to figure out the set it's running and yeah some sets are easier to use than others and each set requires different counters. I've been using scarf gengar myself a lot when I was getting reqs and the versatility it brings to the table for what it can run and do is quite potent. As of rn, I'm still leaning towards ban but it's not as convincing of a yes as it was before given what can affect the tier.
 
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This whole post should be on Smogon's greatest hits tbh and I love it.

Edit: On a more serious note, I do think Gengar going would prob lead to shit like Lucario getting out of hand and espeed spam being even stronger and at first I did think it was an obvious ban.
There is some merit to this, Lucario in particular has gotten a lot of talk and attention as a potentially big benficiary of Gar being removed from the tier. And for good reason, CC, Mash, and Espeed is a very potent combination that very few mons can hold up against after a SD. Gar's speed, power and immunity to espeed has been a big factor for offense teams in being able to play around it and maintaining a solid revenge killing check. On paper with Gar out the picture this does seem like prime conditions to make lucario a lot scarier prospect.

However, I don't think Luc will be the broken threat some folks are hyping it up to be in the wake of Gar's departure. Namely because there's a mon who I'm surpised hasn't seen nearly as much discussion is gradually being set to rise up. While it's usage has been largely weighed down by the overwhelming presence of Gar, I highly expect to start seeing pop up a lot more post-suspect: Slowbro.

Bro has been a powerful sleeper pick that likely would be OU proper by now if it weren't heavily pinned down for awhile now by the broken pair of Manaphy and Gengar as the premier breakers of the tier for so long. And while Manaphy's removal has greatly benefitted bro and I've started seeing it noticably more so far during the suspect, it's still held back by the Ghost's griphold on the meta, leading players to favor other defensive waters and other cores that don't involve it because they don't have a weakness to Gar's stab. Once Gar is removed I predict bro's usage to skyrocket and particularly see balance teams, which have been pretty much forced out of viability because of Gengar's constraint in the builder and battle at this point, using it as the backbone rise up and see a lot of experimentation/success.

Circling back to Luc, yea Lucario can opt for Crunch to push damage at +2, but that means cutting one of it's 3 other moves that leave an opening that can be exploited. Luc's definitely gonna have some moveslot choices to make, and I think bro will begin to make enough presence in the tier for folks to make this account for it in the builder and hold the potential brokeness of Lucario back, amongst other things.

Ima wrap this tangent up here tho since anymore would probably be getting a little too off topic, but I think I've made my point. Appreicate someone bringing the Lucario concern up since it has been one of the more popular discussions outside the forum recently and is certainly relevant to bring up regarding Gar's impact on the meta, for better and worse.

it's not as convincing of a yes as it was before given what can affect the tier
It defeinitely does affect the tier, but overall the pros of it being removed from the tier outweigh the few cons. Right now if you're not running raw offense you're pretty much mandated to slot Blissey into your team (or one of the very limited, generally sub-optimal alternatives thats can hold gar off for a bit) and that's extremely constraining and unhealthy. Getting rid of Gar would expand the tier's diversity for the best.
 
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Xilefi

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On a more serious note, I do think Gengar going would prob lead to shit like Lucario getting out of hand and espeed spam being even stronger and at first I did think it was an obvious ban.
For everyone worrying about Alakazam, Luke and what I know else, keep in mind that a suspect test isn't the end of things : if one pokemon becomes broken/unhealthy in turn, it will just be suspect tested. It is obvious that a broken/unhealthy mon is preventing others to compete and it is the purpose of a suspect test : is that prevention an issue for the metagame or not ? For instance, is Gengar abilities to RK Lucario (between others to be fair, especially scarf sets) put Gengar over the top ? Try to stay on rail when talking about the suspected mon, a suspect isn't to evaluate which are the winners/losers of a potential ban.

Edit : This is also true in the other direction, something banned can be unbanned if council thinks it would benefit the tier.

Gengar speed tier makes it able to revenge kill everything under Latios/Latias and there is a lot of things. BDSP isn't fast at all, out offense Gengar isn't easy at all. Scarf set might be the best scarfer with Rotom forms even if it is not its best set : for instance, +2 Adamant Dragonite and Feraligatr are slower than +1 Gengar. It completly ruins hyper offensive strategies where specs damage aren't needed. You could argue that Gengar helps to keep them at bay but i think it is mostly untrue as the format is already really warped into HO/Offense or Stall. In my experience, Scarf Gengar is one of the hardest set to scout and if it is not the most potent set, it is one more to worry about.

A game where Gengar is involved turns into saving as much as possible your potential revenge killers (especially those with priority moves or sash Zam as either scarf Gengar is a thing either those mons are slower than Gengar) which is possible but not in every game even when you stack them. "Play around it" isn't a fair argument at all, it is a polite way to say "Learn to play". Opponent plays also around your stategy that becomes obvious when facing Gengar. Out offense Gengar is easier to say than done even if it is not impossible. Without mentioning its type restricts the amount of potential revenge killers (Mach Punch/Extreme Speed users) that would be potent against also other threats (Water spam I'm looking at you).

I won't repeat the other things that make Gengar broken in my mind, you simply can't play around Gengar effectively, nor in the builder nor in practice.
 
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Finchinator

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Gengar has plenty of fringe counterplay and circumstantial checks, but ultimately you’re forced to go well out of your way or play some guessing games with what it’s actually going to do to reliably contain it.

Most sets have been talked to death already and team structures tried already, so I won’t expand a ton, but ultimately I feel like Gengar goes beyond the normal pressure you get from a top tier, generic “good” Pokemon breaker. It is able to accumulate progress at an unprecedented rate for a frailer Pokemon and requires minimal pivoting support to enter safely.

I find Gengar to restrict teambuilding or make gameplay very limiting with a strong focus on it alone defensively, which warps the metagame and should be enough to ban it.

TL;DR: I miss Pursuit.
 
Running against gengar is an absolute nightmare in lower and upper ladder because the little ways to deal with it properly. The fact that people need to make joke answers like muk or regigigas prove that the problem is quite out of hands.

"Some answers"-

ALAKAZAM-
SP.ATTACK-252
SPEED-252
SP.DEFENSE-4
Item:Choice Scarf
+KO gengar without needing to sacrifice any health not including the stealth rocks
+Gengar has no good priority to deal with choice scarf alakazam
- This doesn't account for alakazam taking any prior damage would be hard to avoid if not impossible to avoid
-Alakazam has absolutely no way to switch in against gengar
-Alakazam can be walled by very strong dark type pokemon like weavile

WEAVILE-
ATTACK-252
SPEED-252
DEFENSE-4
Item:Choice Scarf
+Outspeed gengar and KO with knock off,triple axel or any other move
+Gengar only has one move that can KO weavile on switch in
-Why would you run choice scarf on one of the fastest pokemon possible
-Give up on using literally any good item
-Gengar COULD use focus blast against weavile attempts to switch in

CHANSEY-
DEFENSE-252
HP-252
SP.DEFENSE-4
Item:Evolite
+Walls gengar completely
+Could run a sp.attack set over defense or hp in order to wittle down a gengar
-Can't damage gengar very well in return
-If it loses it's evolite it could be worn down

These negatives only account for a small few possibility and strongly overshine the positives as needing to run a specific pokemon with a specific item counter item makes the game lose all freedoms. These are for people who want to attempt to deal with the problem however I can't promise the results will go well in countering gengar as the scenarios that could lead to their early defeat is vast. PLEASE BAN THIS MENACE!!!
 
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Lalaya

Banned deucer.
Running against gengar is an absolute nightmare in lower and upper ladder because the little ways to deal with it properly. The fact that people need to make joke answers like muk or regigigas prove that the problem is quite out of hands.

"Some answers"-

ALAKAZAM-
SP.ATTACK-252
SPEED-252
SP.DEFENSE-4
Item:Choice Scarf
+KO gengar without needing to sacrifice any health not including the stealth rocks
+Gengar has no good priority to deal with choice scarf alakazam
- This doesn't account for alakazam taking any prior damage would be hard to avoid if not impossible to avoid
-Alakazam has absolutely no way to switch in against gengar
-Alakazam can be walled by very strong dark type pokemon like weavile

WEAVILE-
ATTACK-252
SPEED-252
DEFENSE-4
Item:Choice Scarf
+Outspeed gengar and KO with knock off,triple axel or any other move
+Gengar only has one move that can KO weavile on switch in
-Why would you run choice scarf on one of the fastest pokemon possible
-Give up on using literally any good item
-Gengar COULD use focus blast against weavile attempts to switch in

CHANSEY-
DEFENSE-252
HP-252
SP.DEFENSE-4
Item:Evolite
+Walls gengar completely
+Could run a sp.attack set over defense or hp in order to wittle down a gengar
-Can't damage gengar very well in return
-If it loses it's evolite it could be worn down

These negatives only account for a small few possibility and strongly overshine the positives as needing to run a specific pokemon with a specific item counter item makes the game lose all freedoms. These are for people who want to attempt to deal with the problem however I can't promise the results will go well in countering gengar as the scenarios that could lead to their early defeat is vast. PLEASE BAN THIS MENACE!!!
I appreciate the enthusiasm, but the first two sets are genuinely not worth enough to be usable, and for the third one I must say to you there's no Eviolite in this game, so you need to run Blissey with another item over it because that set can't exist in BDSP
Please have some awareness of the metagame before posting! :)
 
My first Successful suspect reqs. ( the first one I've actually gone for realistically) I was going to go no ban initially because I felt I never had trouble with gengar. But after trying on 5 accs to get these reqs (like I say I am new to this) I have decided to vote BAN

Main reason being I have felt the ubiquitous presence of blissey on my team has saved me vs Gengar waaay too often to be considered a coincidence or just a team building issue. Be it plot, specs, sub etc, blissey has been consistently the only mon on my team able to take Gar on. If I never had that bliss, it would have been game over on multiple occasions. Sorry for the amateur analysis but again it is my first successful suspect test. I love you Gar, but you gotta go. BAN
 

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Hi guys, I’m new to the community and this is my first suspect test. All in all I had great fun laddering with a specific goal in mind, that being to determine the validity of Gengar’s place in the BDSP OU meta.

I used a balance team with a breaker core of life orb mixed Latios and swords dance Lucario for the best part of my run

https://pastebin.com/exbRUX8Z

The team is actually quite weak to gengar, with my only real check being specially defensive Heatran, and even then I have to rely on the shaky accuracy of magma storm to actually kill it. My other option is to revenge kill the ghost with my scarf Rotom. This wasn’t a huge issue as Gengar actually isn’t seen on the ladder nearly as much as the team building staples such as Rotom-W, Gliscor, Scizor and Lati@s, and even when I do see it I can generally manage quite well by baiting it in and aggressive double switching to gain momentum.

I didn’t see it that much on my climb, and I didn’t find it too oppressive either in the team builder or on the ladder. Now that’s just my personal experience, but let me get into some broader meta analysis.

There is a lot of talk of Gengar being centralising to the meta. It has few switch ins, a great speed tier and a diverse move pool that makes checking it only really viable for a few mons like Blissey and Heatran.

But the fact is, not every team needs a defensive counter to Gengar. From an offensive standpoint, 350 speed is good but it’s very easy to bring in a faster mon or one with priority for the revenge kill. Sure they might lose a monster in the process but that’s the name of the game when playing offence. Even heavily offensive mons like Weavile and Crawdaunt can come in on a predicted shadow ball and pick up a KO.

Both balance and stall don’t mind playing Blissey at all, in fact they would probably still run Blissey even without Gengar in the meta. There are also several fine checks such as SpDef Hippowdon, Gastrodon and Chople berry Tyranitar just to name a few that can fit in to these play styles easily.

We do have a centralised meta, but Gengar is far from the main culprit. The fact is that we have a very limited pool of monsters and moves to choose from in BDSP and this naturally creates a centralised environment. Centralisation is characteristic of BDSP and is not the result of Gengar being in the tier.

In fact I would argue that by far the biggest culprits of centralisation in the tier are (in no particular order) Gliscor, Scizor, Rotom-Wash and Latios. These are the most ubiquitous monsters that provide such ridiculous role compression that they can all fit on virtually every team.

In conclusion, while Gengar hits hard and fast with few resists, I feel that it’s power level in no way represents an Uber-tier threat. This monster is, in my opinion, adequately kept in check by the tools currently at our disposal in the BDSP OU metagame. As such, I am voting *DO NOT BAN*

Thanks for taking the time to read my lengthy post, and may the luck of Arceus be with you!
 

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Hi guys, I’m new to the community and this is my first suspect test. All in all I had great fun laddering with a specific goal in mind, that being to determine the validity of Gengar’s place in the BDSP OU meta.

I used a balance team with a breaker core of life orb mixed Latios and swords dance Lucario for the best part of my run

https://pastebin.com/exbRUX8Z

The team is actually quite weak to gengar, with my only real check being specially defensive Heatran, and even then I have to rely on the shaky accuracy of magma storm to actually kill it. My other option is to revenge kill the ghost with my scarf Rotom. This wasn’t a huge issue as Gengar actually isn’t seen on the ladder nearly as much as the team building staples such as Rotom-W, Gliscor, Scizor and Lati@s, and even when I do see it I can generally manage quite well by baiting it in and aggressive double switching to gain momentum.

I didn’t see it that much on my climb, and I didn’t find it too oppressive either in the team builder or on the ladder. Now that’s just my personal experience, but let me get into some broader meta analysis.

There is a lot of talk of Gengar being centralising to the meta. It has few switch ins, a great speed tier and a diverse move pool that makes checking it only really viable for a few mons like Blissey and Heatran.

But the fact is, not every team needs a defensive counter to Gengar. From an offensive standpoint, 350 speed is good but it’s very easy to bring in a faster mon or one with priority for the revenge kill. Sure they might lose a monster in the process but that’s the name of the game when playing offence. Even heavily offensive mons like Weavile and Crawdaunt can come in on a predicted shadow ball and pick up a KO.

Both balance and stall don’t mind playing Blissey at all, in fact they would probably still run Blissey even without Gengar in the meta. There are also several fine checks such as SpDef Hippowdon, Gastrodon and Chople berry Tyranitar just to name a few that can fit in to these play styles easily.

We do have a centralised meta, but Gengar is far from the main culprit. The fact is that we have avery limited pool of monsters and moves to choose from in BDSP and this naturally creates a centralised environment. For example, there’s only 4 mons in the tier that can remove hazards (Gliscor, Scizor, Lati@s and Starmie) so of course they all have crazy high usage. Centralisation is characteristic of BDSP and is not the result of Gengar being in the tier.

In fact I would argue that by far the biggest culprits of centralisation in the tier are (in no particular order) Gliscor, Scizor, Rotom-Wash and Latios. These are the most ubiquitous monsters that provide such ridiculous role compression that they can all fit on virtually every team.

In conclusion, while Gengar hits hard and fast with few resists, I feel that it’s power level in no way represents an Uber-tier threat. This monster is, in my opinion, adequately kept in check by the tools currently at our disposal in the BDSP OU metagame. As such, I am voting *DO NOT BAN*

Thanks for taking the time to read my lengthy post, and may the luck of Arceus be with you!
I have noticed fewer Gengars as well.

Personally, I stopped playing my teams with Gengar in prep for the ban. Wanted to get better at bulky offense playstyles without Gar.

I think you should go back into the builder and rethink your statement regarding what pokemon can remove hazards. Just reading this your lack of citing Donphan, Togekiss, and Skarm was surprising.
 
I have noticed fewer Gengars as well.

Personally, I stopped playing my teams with Gengar in prep for the ban. Wanted to get better at bulky offense playstyles without Gar.

I think you should go back into the builder and rethink your statement regarding what pokemon can remove hazards. Just reading this your lack of citing Donphan, Togekiss, and Skarm was surprising.
Thanks, yeah it was a bad example but the point still stands, I edited my post to remove the false statement.
 
But the fact is, not every team needs a defensive counter to Gengar. From an offensive standpoint, 350 speed is good but it’s very easy to bring in a faster mon or one with priority for the revenge kill. Sure they might lose a monster in the process but that’s the name of the game when playing offence. Even heavily offensive mons like Weavile and Crawdaunt can come in on a predicted shadow ball and pick up a KO.
Weavile and Crawdaunt do not switch in.

+2 252 SpA Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Weavile: 149-176 (53 - 62.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 SpA Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Crawdaunt: 211-249 (79 - 93.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Crawdaunt: 158-186 (59.1 - 69.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Gengar Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Weavile: 892-1052 (317.4 - 374.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Priority doesn't always kill Gengar,
252+ Atk Choice Band Adaptability Crawdaunt Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Gengar: 204-242 (78.1 - 92.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
8 Atk Technician Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Gengar: 123-145 (47.1 - 55.5%) -- 76.6% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Weavile Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Gengar: 139-165 (53.2 - 63.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Mamoswine Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Gengar: 162-192 (62 - 73.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Gengar: 178-211 (68.1 - 80.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

But if your team has more then one prio user that isn't a mach punch,espeed user then yeah you can beat gengar but gengar can probably afford switching out, and coming back in to late game sweep if possible.

anyways, The only pokemon thats going to outspeed gengar is Starmie,Weavile,Alakazam,Azelf, And scarfers, and none of these pokemon switch in well, also gengar can even run scarf to even outspeed scarfers that try to revenge kill it.


Both balance and stall don’t mind playing Blissey at all, in fact they would probably still run Blissey even without Gengar in the meta. There are also several fine checks such as SpDef Hippowdon, Gastrodon and Chople berry Tyranitar just to name a few that can fit in to these play styles easily.
252 SpA Choice Specs Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 248+ SpD Hippowdon: 174-205 (41.4 - 48.8%) -- 8.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Choice Specs Gengar Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 180 SpD Chople Berry Tyranitar in Sand: 220-260 (54.4 - 64.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
(you only check gengar if you get a free switch, otherwise it will fail,)

Now gastrodon can take Gengar's attacks better then the checks you mentioned but this is still relevant.
+2 252 SpA Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Gastrodon: 213-252 (50 - 59.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(k going off of what adem has told me, gastro actually does switch in, but be aware of the ladder gengars that run energy ball, and energy ball bops both hippowdon and gastrodon and eball can fit on specs.)


We do have a centralised meta, but Gengar is far from the main culprit. The fact is that we have a very limited pool of monsters and moves to choose from in BDSP and this naturally creates a centralised environment. Centralisation is characteristic of BDSP and is not the result of Gengar being in the tier.

In fact I would argue that by far the biggest culprits of centralisation in the tier are (in no particular order) Gliscor, Scizor, Rotom-Wash and Latios. These are the most ubiquitous monsters that provide such ridiculous role compression that they can all fit on virtually every team.
Blissey literally runs shadow ball just because of Gengar and When has Blissey ever ran shadow ball???

Gengar can fit on every team (except maybe stall), It has multiple viable sets from being defensive to outright showing broken amounts of power, And it's easily holding the meta in a vice grip. Gengar needs to be banned to allow the meta to grow and diversify and it is easily more centralizing then the 4 you mentioned.
 
Last edited:

Xilefi

is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributor
Moderator
Hi guys, I’m new to the community and this is my first suspect test. All in all I had great fun laddering with a specific goal in mind, that being to determine the validity of Gengar’s place in the BDSP OU meta.

I used a balance team with a breaker core of life orb mixed Latios and swords dance Lucario for the best part of my run

https://pastebin.com/exbRUX8Z

The team is actually quite weak to gengar, with my only real check being specially defensive Heatran, and even then I have to rely on the shaky accuracy of magma storm to actually kill it. My other option is to revenge kill the ghost with my scarf Rotom. This wasn’t a huge issue as Gengar actually isn’t seen on the ladder nearly as much as the team building staples such as Rotom-W, Gliscor, Scizor and Lati@s, and even when I do see it I can generally manage quite well by baiting it in and aggressive double switching to gain momentum.

I didn’t see it that much on my climb, and I didn’t find it too oppressive either in the team builder or on the ladder. Now that’s just my personal experience, but let me get into some broader meta analysis.

There is a lot of talk of Gengar being centralising to the meta. It has few switch ins, a great speed tier and a diverse move pool that makes checking it only really viable for a few mons like Blissey and Heatran.

But the fact is, not every team needs a defensive counter to Gengar. From an offensive standpoint, 350 speed is good but it’s very easy to bring in a faster mon or one with priority for the revenge kill. Sure they might lose a monster in the process but that’s the name of the game when playing offence. Even heavily offensive mons like Weavile and Crawdaunt can come in on a predicted shadow ball and pick up a KO.

Both balance and stall don’t mind playing Blissey at all, in fact they would probably still run Blissey even without Gengar in the meta. There are also several fine checks such as SpDef Hippowdon, Gastrodon and Chople berry Tyranitar just to name a few that can fit in to these play styles easily.

We do have a centralised meta, but Gengar is far from the main culprit. The fact is that we have a very limited pool of monsters and moves to choose from in BDSP and this naturally creates a centralised environment. Centralisation is characteristic of BDSP and is not the result of Gengar being in the tier.

In fact I would argue that by far the biggest culprits of centralisation in the tier are (in no particular order) Gliscor, Scizor, Rotom-Wash and Latios. These are the most ubiquitous monsters that provide such ridiculous role compression that they can all fit on virtually every team.

In conclusion, while Gengar hits hard and fast with few resists, I feel that it’s power level in no way represents an Uber-tier threat. This monster is, in my opinion, adequately kept in check by the tools currently at our disposal in the BDSP OU metagame. As such, I am voting *DO NOT BAN*

Thanks for taking the time to read my lengthy post, and may the luck of Arceus be with you!
I won't try to dismantle point by point this argumentation at this point of the suspect test and of the discussion, we have all stated what we think are facts or not. Though, I want to try show one or two things that are not necessarily obvious while discussing about Gengar (and other suspected mons in general).

First, a number : Gengar has 27.890% of usage in january which put it at the 4th place closed to Rotom-Wash (3rd place) and Garchomp (5th place). Before commenting this number, I think we can agree that Gengar is a pokemon you will encounter a decent amount of time while laddering. Statiscally speaking, it means you would see a Gengar around every 4 games but stats are aggregated samples but it is possible to experience a standard deviation.

Anyway, I've also experienced myself encoutering less Gengar that I've expected these last two weeks and the reason that comes to my mind is that people may not want to play Gengar every time they play even if it is a very good mon. And they are right to so if it is the real reason. Usage isn't necessarily a good argument when considering a ban or not but it can be. If it was the case, Scizor would have been already banned with its 48% of usage (1st) and some mons have been banned with actually very few usage.

What we have to consider is actually what Gengar does during a match, not when it is not here because you can't measure properly its impact. Actually, we could as direct adaptations to Gengar lose their relevance when it isn't around (ie. niches). I want to share a common opinion among a certain amount of people on the BDSP OU Discord (join us !) that is "You don't build around Gengar because it is useless". So yes, you don't actually prepare yourself in the builder for Gengar for the simple exact reason that :

Shadow Ball in BDSP OU is an extremely powerful and spammable STAB move with very limited recourse for such a high-powered Pokemon.
And you don't need to honestly. We can all agree that most mons use to revenge kill Gengar will be good anyway. And it is here that I disagree with your argumentation : Gengar isn't centralizing. The proof is we don't adapt to it. We use the common pattern "sac a mon, attempting to revenge kill" trying to trade better than our opponent. A pokemon with 28% usage that doesn't need to be taken account while still performing ? What a relief ! Doesn't something sound off ? Sorry for being a bit sarcastic here but it is kinda what you said between lines and others did aswell.

I don't want to question your honesty in your says, I think you and others have a wrong prospective looking at Gengar, for good or bad reasons. You don't ask yourself the good questions about Gengar, you don't analyse what it is meaningful talking about Gengar. What is problematic with Gengar isn't its repercussions on the metagame but its own effectiveness during a game. It does what other mons do aswell but it does it better by a fair margin. It doesn't neuter a playstyle neither it forces to play specific counters, it just spams Shadow Ball.
 
Weavile and Crawdaunt do not switch in.

+2 252 SpA Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Weavile: 149-176 (53 - 62.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 SpA Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Crawdaunt: 211-249 (79 - 93.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Crawdaunt: 158-186 (59.1 - 69.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Gengar Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Weavile: 892-1052 (317.4 - 374.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Priority doesn't always kill Gengar,
252+ Atk Choice Band Adaptability Crawdaunt Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Gengar: 204-242 (78.1 - 92.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
8 Atk Technician Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Gengar: 123-145 (47.1 - 55.5%) -- 76.6% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Weavile Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Gengar: 139-165 (53.2 - 63.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Mamoswine Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Gengar: 162-192 (62 - 73.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Gengar: 178-211 (68.1 - 80.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

But if your team has more then one prio user that isn't a mach punch,espeed user then yeah you can beat gengar but gengar can probably afford switching out, and coming back in to late game sweep if possible.

anyways, The only pokemon thats going to outspeed gengar is Starmie,Weavile,Alakazam,Azelf, And scarfers, and none of these pokemon switch in well, also gengar can even run scarf to even outspeed scarfers that try to revenge kill it.




252 SpA Choice Specs Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 248+ SpD Hippowdon: 174-205 (41.4 - 48.8%) -- 8.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Choice Specs Gengar Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 180 SpD Chople Berry Tyranitar in Sand: 220-260 (54.4 - 64.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
(you only check gengar if you get a free switch, otherwise it will fail,)

Now gastrodon can take Gengar's attacks better then the checks you mentioned but this is still relevant.
+2 252 SpA Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Gastrodon: 213-252 (50 - 59.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(k going off of what adem has told me, gastro actually does switch in, but be aware of the ladder gengars that run energy ball, and energy ball bops both hippowdon and gastrodon and eball can fit on specs.)



Blissey literally runs shadow ball just because of Gengar and When has Blissey ever ran shadow ball???

Gengar can fit on every team (except maybe stall), It has multiple viable sets from being defensive to outright showing broken amounts of power, And it's easily holding the meta in a vice grip. Gengar needs to be banned to allow the meta to grow and diversify and it is easily more centralizing then the 4 you mentioned.
This is a fallacy I see a lot of people making in this thread; they are conceptualising a perfect Gengar with all held items at once, with all coverage moves at once and never misses a focus blast. Gengar cannot run life orb, specs, scarf, sash and black sludge all on one set, nor can it click more than one move at a time. Items/moves that give it an easier time in a specific match up will auto lose other match ups. Scarf is easily checked by bulky mons, Specs is weak to fast mons, sash is weak to residual damage, etc.
The fact is Gengar is a frail mon with very little defensive utility. It can only really come in on a predicted switch or after a kill. It’s often choice locked, which makes it easy to counter with the ever common protect. All of its sets die to hazard + priority/fast mon. While no one mon can take on all of Gengar sets at once, there are plenty that deal with the individual sets.while no one mon tanks all of Gengars hits, there are plenty that can tank individual moves (which is relevant when choice locked), especially as all of Gengars moves have immunities and common resistances.
 
I won't try to dismantle point by point this argumentation at this point of the suspect test and of the discussion, we have all stated what we think are facts or not. Though, I want to try show one or two things that are not necessarily obvious while discussing about Gengar (and other suspected mons in general).

First, a number : Gengar has 27.890% of usage in january which put it at the 4th place closed to Rotom-Wash (3rd place) and Garchomp (5th place). Before commenting this number, I think we can agree that Gengar is a pokemon you will encounter a decent amount of time while laddering. Statiscally speaking, it means you would see a Gengar around every 4 games but stats are aggregated samples but it is possible to experience a standard deviation.

Anyway, I've also experienced myself encoutering less Gengar that I've expected these last two weeks and the reason that comes to my mind is that people may not want to play Gengar every time they play even if it is a very good mon. And they are right to so if it is the real reason. Usage isn't necessarily a good argument when considering a ban or not but it can be. If it was the case, Scizor would have been already banned with its 48% of usage (1st) and some mons have been banned with actually very few usage.

What we have to consider is actually what Gengar does during a match, not when it is not here because you can't measure properly its impact. Actually, we could as direct adaptations to Gengar lose their relevance when it isn't around (ie. niches). I want to share a common opinion among a certain amount of people on the BDSP OU Discord (join us !) that is "You don't build around Gengar because it is useless". So yes, you don't actually prepare yourself in the builder for Gengar for the simple exact reason that :



And you don't need to honestly. We can all agree that most mons use to revenge kill Gengar will be good anyway. And it is here that I disagree with your argumentation : Gengar isn't centralizing. The proof is we don't adapt to it. We use the common pattern "sac a mon, attempting to revenge kill" trying to trade better than our opponent. A pokemon with 28% usage that doesn't need to be taken account while still performing ? What a relief ! Doesn't something sound off ? Sorry for being a bit sarcastic here but it is kinda what you said between lines and others did aswell.

I don't want to question your honesty in your says, I think you and others have a wrong prospective looking at Gengar, for good or bad reasons. You don't ask yourself the good questions about Gengar, you don't analyse what it is meaningful talking about Gengar. What is problematic with Gengar isn't its repercussions on the metagame but its own effectiveness during a game. It does what other mons do aswell but it does it better by a fair margin. It doesn't neuter a playstyle neither it forces to play specific counters, it just spams Shadow Ball.
You do prepare for Gengar in the builder. For example, a combo of Heatran + Gengar on your team leaves your opponent in a conondrum; do they click focus blast to hit the Tran, and risk giving your Gengar a free kill? Or do they click shadow ball for the safer play and let your Tran come in and gain momentum?
Even a normal defensive core of Clef Tran leaves your opponent guessing which move to click. 9/10 times they will click shadow ball because it’s so spammable, and that is exploitable with good prediction and solid team building.
 
This is a fallacy I see a lot of people making in this thread; they are conceptualising a perfect Gengar with all held items at once, with all coverage moves at once and never misses a focus blast. Gengar cannot run life orb, specs, scarf, sash and black sludge all on one set, nor can it click more than one move at a time. Items/moves that give it an easier time in a specific match up will auto lose other match ups. Scarf is easily checked by bulky mons, Specs is weak to fast mons, sash is weak to residual damage, etc.
The fact is Gengar is a frail mon with very little defensive utility. It can only really come in on a predicted switch or after a kill. It’s often choice locked, which makes it easy to counter with the ever common protect. All of its sets die to hazard + priority/fast mon. While no one mon can take on all of Gengar sets at once, there are plenty that deal with the individual sets.while no one mon tanks all of Gengars hits, there are plenty that can tank individual moves (which is relevant when choice locked), especially as all of Gengars moves have immunities and common resistances.
No one is saying gengar runs every set. The issue is the variety of sets it can run means what may somewhat check one set cannot check another, or cannot check it consistently.

For instance Ttar can handle specs sets (provided it isn't smacked by focus blast on the way in), but can lose to sub/wisp and NP sets. The bulky mons that check scarf cannot check specs, and if you switch in expecting scarf but get specs instead you are put on a heavy backfoot. Or you switch to your specs check expecting it, only for Gengar to sub up.

As for getting it in, slow uturn/volt switch makes this easier than you think. And there are only a few common protect users in the tier (unless there was an uprising of protect spam in which case someone correct me). Also protecting at the wrong time expecting specs only for Gengar to sub up would be... Pretty bad. And no, priority is not a consistent answer. If we used the priority+hazard chip argument to keep a mon in check, we would have left DeoN unbanned in XY.
 
No one is saying gengar runs every set. The issue is the variety of sets it can run means what may somewhat check one set cannot check another, or cannot check it consistently.

For instance Ttar can handle specs sets (provided it isn't smacked by focus blast on the way in), but can lose to sub/wisp and NP sets. The bulky mons that check scarf cannot check specs, and if you switch in expecting scarf but get specs instead you are put on a heavy backfoot. Or you switch to your specs check expecting it, only for Gengar to sub up.

As for getting it in, slow uturn/volt switch makes this easier than you think. And there are only a few common protect users in the tier (unless there was an uprising of protect spam in which case someone correct me). Also protecting at the wrong time expecting specs only for Gengar to sub up would be... Pretty bad. And no, priority is not a consistent answer. If we used the priority+hazard chip argument to keep a mon in check, we would have left DeoN unbanned in XY.
A lot of monsters in the tier have set variety and the ability to pick and chose their checks. For example Latios can run earthquake to bop Heatran, Scarf to surprise weavile/Starmie/Alakazam or specs to bop Clefable. Scizor can run max speed brick break to take out Heatran. Breloom can run sash, life orb, poison heal or choice band and one wrong predict can get your only counter slept or taken advantage of with rock tomb, or swords dance. Clefable can run life orb with fire blast and ice beam to counter most of it’s traditional switch-ins.

It’s your job as a player to look at the opposing team composition and make a read with the highest chance of success, and adjust your counter play accordingly. Many mons in the tier force a guessing game, not just Gengar. It’s natural for OU mons to have several roles they can fill in team building and nothing exclusive to Gengar.
 
A lot of monsters in the tier have set variety and the ability to pick and chose their checks. For example Latios can run earthquake to bop Heatran, Scarf to surprise weavile/Starmie/Alakazam or specs to bop Clefable. Scizor can run max speed brick break to take out Heatran. Breloom can run sash, life orb, poison heal or choice band and one wrong predict can get your only counter slept or taken advantage of with rock tomb, or swords dance. Clefable can run life orb with fire blast and ice beam to counter most of it’s traditional switch-ins.

It’s your job as a player to look at the opposing team composition and make a read with the highest chance of success, and adjust your counter play accordingly. Many mons in the tier force a guessing game, not just Gengar. It’s natural for OU mons to have several roles they can fill in team building and nothing exclusive to Gengar.
The difference is the effectiveness of those sets and how badly you can be punished for guessing wrong. Most of the mons you listed can run those sets you listef, but only Latios really comes anywhere close to Gengar. And even then, Specs Latios is still the most common because it is splashable and very hard to switch into. Oh and Scizor would need Heatran to be largely chipped to be taken out by unstab brickbreak.

**252+ Atk Life Orb Scizor Brick Break vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 224-265 (69.3 - 82%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery**

So it isn't a good example. Especially since as of now Spdef are its best sets.

Gengar punishes incorrect guesses much too hard, and you cannot easily get off the backfoot you were forced on against Gengar if you guess wrong. For example, running a team with Blissey as your Gengar switch in. Expect specs and switch to your Blissey, only to be met with SubNP. What do you do?
 
The difference is the effectiveness of those sets and how badly you can be punished for guessing wrong. Most of the mons you listed can run those sets you listef, but only Latios really comes anywhere close to Gengar. And even then, Specs Latios is still the most common because it is splashable and very hard to switch into. Oh and Scizor would need Heatran to be largely chipped to be taken out by unstab brickbreak.

**252+ Atk Life Orb Scizor Brick Break vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 224-265 (69.3 - 82%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery**

So it isn't a good example. Especially since as of now Spdef are its best sets.

Gengar punishes incorrect guesses much too hard, and you cannot easily get off the backfoot you were forced on against Gengar if you guess wrong. For example, running a team with Blissey as your Gengar switch in. Expect specs and switch to your Blissey, only to be met with SubNP. What do you do?
Im pretty sure shadow ball blissey still beats Gengar 1v1 even if it subs on the switch
Also Scizor can swords dance on the switch and kill Tran with Brick Break.
 

Xilefi

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Moderator
You do prepare for Gengar in the builder. For example, a combo of Heatran + Gengar on your team leaves your opponent in a conondrum; do they click focus blast to hit the Tran, and risk giving your Gengar a free kill? Or do they click shadow ball for the safer play and let your Tran come in and gain momentum?
Even a normal defensive core of Clef Tran leaves your opponent guessing which move to click. 9/10 times they will click shadow ball because it’s so spammable, and that is exploitable with good prediction and solid team building.
To be fair, you can build a successful team without worrying about Gengar for the simple reason, that many people on the Do Not Ban side have called as a strong argument, that what you need in current meta is what you need against Gengar, namely fast offensive threats or priorities. Its frailty makes it weak to mostly every moves on the offensive side besides Normal, Fighting and Bug moves.

What you mention about Heatran+Gar combo is just the usual burden of any fighting moves in Pokemon since the introduction of steel types without taking into account that for instance you use Gengar against Gengar. Anyway, the format we play isn't 1 versus 1 scenario (so please to all the people out there, stop throwing calcs at each other for the sake of throwing calcs) as you have induced. Switches in and out are viable plays and realistic scenarios. For instance your example I think is really generalisable : would you risk to lose Gengar against an Heatran ?

It is worth mentionning that spec Focus Blast doesn't OHKO a spdef Heatran (~70%-80%) and Shadow Ball does less than half (~35%-40%). Depends of the situation but in a vacuum, the best play in my opinion is to switch out if opposing Heatran isn't in Shadow Ball range. Switch into Heatran isn't particularily tough in current days (thankfully) and your Gengar will come back in better times. However, if it is in Shadow Ball range (and we all know that Heatran doesn't have good recovery) why would you bother to not click Shadow Ball ? Either it KOs Opposing either it 2hKOs at minimum any switch in.

The bigger picture is exactly this example. There are plenty of good pivots (Rotom forms, Gliscor, Scizor to name a few) in the tier that are more than capable to bring Gengar (whatever the set) in favorable position. And it is not the case, it is perfectly fine to use it as a revenge killer itself with the same efficiency. Gengar will force a KO in most scenarios. Eventually as the options you have will be thiner through the course of the game, it will get revenge kill. Sometimes, Gengar will claim one KO, sometimes many KOs, but it will claim KOs. In one sentence, Gengar is your safest choice when it comes to KO something despite its frailty.

I do believe it is too safe for what it does which means claiming KOs with that many opportunities to do so thanks to its speed.
 
Im pretty sure shadow ball blissey still beats Gengar 1v1 even if it subs on the switch
Again, Blissey shouldn't even be running shadow ball, If blissey is shaky at checking a special attacker then that of in itself is a problem in my opnion.


This is a fallacy I see a lot of people making in this thread; they are conceptualising a perfect Gengar with all held items at once, with all coverage moves at once and never misses a focus blast. Gengar cannot run life orb, specs, scarf, sash and black sludge all on one set, nor can it click more than one move at a time. Items/moves that give it an easier time in a specific match up will auto lose other match ups. Scarf is easily checked by bulky mons, Specs is weak to fast mons, sash is weak to residual damage, etc.
The fact is Gengar is a frail mon with very little defensive utility. It can only really come in on a predicted switch or after a kill. It’s often choice locked, which makes it easy to counter with the ever common protect. All of its sets die to hazard + priority/fast mon. While no one mon can take on all of Gengar sets at once, there are plenty that deal with the individual sets.while no one mon tanks all of Gengars hits, there are plenty that can tank individual moves (which is relevant when choice locked), especially as all of Gengars moves have immunities and common resistances.
And this is a fallacy i see many anti ban people make on Gengar. You see, i listed calcs from different Gengar sets to represent how Weavile and Crawdaunt don't switch in, And how multiple sets from Gengar can easily beat them on the switch as a way to address ur point as to how they appearently do switch in. Never once have i hinted that Gengar can run all sets at the same time, But how Gengar can threaten the switchins you mentioned by the different sets that it can run. Im convinced you didn't even think about this heavily and just thought i was mentioning all of the sets as one and called it fallacious.

A lot of monsters in the tier have set variety and the ability to pick and chose their checks. For example Latios can run earthquake to bop Heatran, Scarf to surprise weavile/Starmie/Alakazam or specs to bop Clefable. Scizor can run max speed brick break to take out Heatran. Breloom can run sash, life orb, poison heal or choice band and one wrong predict can get your only counter slept or taken advantage of with rock tomb, or swords dance. Clefable can run life orb with fire blast and ice beam to counter most of it’s traditional switch-ins.

It’s your job as a player to look at the opposing team composition and make a read with the highest chance of success, and adjust your counter play accordingly. Many mons in the tier force a guessing game, not just Gengar. It’s natural for OU mons to have several roles they can fill in team building and nothing exclusive to Gengar.
And all of the Pokémon you've mentioned that run different sets can usually just be scouted for if Ur team is any good. Scouting what set Gengar is, usually means you lose a mon in the process, Or one of ur mons took over 50% and is in the 2hko range, And you've gotta pray that Gengar isn't also scarf. (I MUST SAY that this might not be a broken quality of Gengar as there is the possibility that the mons that you've mentioned can do the same but this is worth mentioning.)
 
Again, Blissey shouldn't even be running shadow ball, If blissey is shaky at checking a special attacker then that of in itself is a problem in my opnion.



And this is a fallacy i see many anti ban people make on Gengar. You see, i listed calcs from different Gengar sets to represent how Weavile and Crawdaunt don't switch in, And how multiple sets from Gengar can easily beat them on the switch as a way to address ur point as to how they appearently do switch in. Never once have i hinted that Gengar can run all sets at the same time, But how Gengar can threaten the switchins you mentioned by the different sets that it can run. Im convinced you didn't even think about this heavily and just thought i was mentioning all of the sets as one and called it fallacious.


And all of the Pokémon you've mentioned that run different sets can usually just be scouted for if Ur team is any good. Scouting what set Gengar is, usually means you lose a mon in the process, Or one of ur mons took over 50% and is in the 2hko range, And you've gotta pray that Gengar isn't also scarf. (I MUST SAY that this might not be a broken quality of Gengar as there is the possibility that the mons that you've mentioned can do the same but this is worth mentioning.)
I said that Weavile and Crawdaunt switch in on shadow ball, which they do. Your calcs even show Crawdaunt living a +2 shadow ball. How Gengar got to +2 is a mystery, but the calcs are cool I guess.

Then you say priority doesn’t beat it but your own calcs show that it dies to Crawdaunt’s Aqua jet after rocks the majority of the time.

You then mention how Gengar has scarf for fast mons, energy ball for Gastrodon, e.t.c.
My point is that Gengar cannot do all of these things at once, and so it isn’t as hard to check it as some people make out.

As for Blissey running shadow ball, who cares if it’s not a traditional move for Blissey to run? The meta game is always changing and adapting to better handle common threats, sometimes move sets have to change to reflect this. This isn’t a sign of an unhealthy meta in any way.
 
I said that Weavile and Crawdaunt switch in on shadow ball, which they do. Your calcs even show Crawdaunt living a +2 shadow ball. How Gengar got to +2 is a mystery, but the calcs are cool I guess.
They switch in, Gengar Lives the priority, and die. That is not a switch in.


Then you say priority doesn’t beat it but your own calcs show that it dies to Crawdaunt’s Aqua jet after rocks the majority of the time.
252+ Atk Choice Band Adaptability Crawdaunt Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Gengar: 204-242 (78.1 - 92.7%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
So basically it is a 31% chance which is the same chance as scald burning you basically. So no, not the majority of the time.


You then mention how Gengar has scarf for fast mons, energy ball for Gastrodon, e.t.c.
My point is that Gengar cannot do all of these things at once, and so it isn’t as hard to check it as some people make out.
And you are still being fallacious.
Gengar indeed has scarf to even damage other scarfers because scarfers are slower then scarfgar.
I also mentioned that gengar has a set that runs energy ball to make gastrodon and hippowdon unable to check it.
Again, never once have i said that it can do all of these things at once (but funnily enough it CAN run energy ball on scarf but usually you'd just run destiny bond on that slot.)


As for Blissey running shadow ball, who cares if it’s not a traditional move for Blissey to run? The meta game is always changing and adapting to better handle common threats, sometimes move sets have to change to reflect this. This isn’t a sign of an unhealthy meta in any way.
So after some research on smogon of blissey's common sets, it indeed ran other moves like ice beam and flamethrower,ect to check common switchins like lucario and dragonite, ect in past gens, but that is a different meta. In this meta, the only time you run a special attack move is if ur calm mind judging by the usage, but shadow ball ultimately is a waste of a moveslot then seismic toss or another special attack.

Blissey is super shaky at checking gengar and gengar is the only reason as to why it runs shadow ball, As blissey could literally just be using seismic toss and hitting the entire meta with that 30% but nah instead its using shadow ball just for gengar. Now you can say it can for zam and latios but blissey already hit's them with toss so it doesn't matter. Movesets changing to handle common threats isn't an unhealthy factor but, it's Blissey. Why is blissey running shadow ball? many people not just me seem to care. After gengar is banned shadow ball blissey won't have any reason to exist so it doesn't matter, This specific factor very much is unhealthy.
 
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I said that Weavile and Crawdaunt switch in on shadow ball, which they do. Your calcs even show Crawdaunt living a +2 shadow ball. How Gengar got to +2 is a mystery, but the calcs are cool I guess.

Then you say priority doesn’t beat it but your own calcs show that it dies to Crawdaunt’s Aqua jet after rocks the majority of the time.

You then mention how Gengar has scarf for fast mons, energy ball for Gastrodon, e.t.c.
My point is that Gengar cannot do all of these things at once, and so it isn’t as hard to check it as some people make out.

As for Blissey running shadow ball, who cares if it’s not a traditional move for Blissey to run? The meta game is always changing and adapting to better handle common threats, sometimes move sets have to change to reflect this. This isn’t a sign of an unhealthy meta in any way.
Weavile reliably switches in once to Gengar if rocks are up. And only once, as without boots it is much more prone to rocks. And Crawdaunt cannot switch in as it is 2HKOed by Gengar and cannot threaten it enough. 31% chance to OHKO with rocks is the furthest thing from consistent.

And again as pointed out to you, no one claims it runs every set at once. The point is to illustrate these sets exist, are all very potent, and it simply isn't possible to check consistently because what may shakily check one set, will just lose to another.

Movesets and builds do adapt and change to better handle some threats. The difference is SB blissey is not a healthy adaptation. There is a difference between something like SwSh Slowbro adapting to Weavile with Colbur and Body Press, which can also have value elsewhere, vs Blissey running shadow ball so it isn't set up fodder, a set that is so much worse in almost every other match up. As has been pointed out, Shadow Ball Blissey would drop off the face of the earth if Gengar was banned.
 
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