Metagame NP: NU Stage 5 - Levitating [Sigilyph Banned - Post #22]

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Expulso

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I think Bewear is a better Pokemon than Pangoro. It has a higher speed tier and has a much easier time finding opportunities because of its speed and, much more importantly, the crazy bulk offered by Fluffy. Pangoro doesn't switch in freely on much and can't switch into a Pokemon like Copperajah (or, say, min spe Gyro / Body Press Bronzong) more than once.

Thus, checking Bewear is a more urgent task than checking Pangoro. If my fighting checks are good against Bewear but not Pangoro (say, phys def Arcanine), I will be punished less than if my fighting check is 'good' against Pangoro but not Bewear (e.x. Sylveon). That's because Pangoro might not get more than 1 chance to fire off its close to unstoppable attacks without a lot of team support, so being iffy against it might not be the end of the world. If you aren't prepared for Bewear, though, it will be coming in at any time to set up, KO, get back to near full, then take down the scarfer sent in to revenge it.

Tony is correct above that Pangoro is close to impossible to switch into, and I'd definitely be down to see it (alongside all 3 fighters) go. SD Chople Berry Bewear is currently the most dominant and broken Pokemon in the tier in my eyes. If it is banned, though, then Pangoro will almost surely become so dangerous that it needs to be banned too.

Doing this with a suspect test for each of them would take, what, a month and a half? That's so long that I would personally love to see a council vote on all of these Pokemon. They're all pretty broken, it's hard to choose a clear one that is most broken, and banning Bewear would make other mons even less manageable due to its defensive utility. Best to take care of the whole batch together, imo.
 

Oathkeeper

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Alright, time to put my thoughts into this discussion

:ss/pangoro:
This panda definitely needs a test imo. When you think of an overpowering mon in this meta, I immediately think of this. There's hardly any switch ins to this thing, if at all. Knock just hurts so much unless you have an itemless Vileplume

252+ Atk Choice Band Pangoro Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Vileplume: 135-160 (38.1 - 45.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

But, one mon does not justify it being not broken here. It clearly is. It's coverage just puts you in mind game situations to the point where it just doesn't matter what you bring in, it still wins either way due to the towering damage it delivers. It has something for everything. The fact that it has Scrappy too is just proving my point that is just need to be tested and, as TonyFlygon said, banned. I always seem to find myself considering Pangoro way too much when teambuilding and in my experience, when you think way too much about checks to a given mon, it's more than likely an issue. Long story short, I say suspect test Pangoro and send it to NUBL where it can become RU's problem.

:ss/bewear:
It looks like a cute and cuddly bear unlike Panda, but it too is problematic. While I feel it's less of a problem than Panda, it still makes you pay if you bring in the wrong thing. Fluffy just makes it tough for physical wallbreakers to take it down, especially if it has Chople Berry for taking that one Close Combat. There's maybe a handful of mons that can come in on it and live to tell the tale including the likes of Intimidate Arcanine, Cresselia, and maybe bulky Talonflame. If this is the case, it needs to at the very least be considered for a test. I mean, if the list of mons that can switch into it is very small, then heck yes, suspect test this bear. I'll admit, Bewear is not something that I consider a HUGE problem right now but maybe I need to battle some more and get a much clearer opinion on it, but for now, take it into suspect consideration.

:ss/mienshao:
I love this mon being here. Best scarfer in the meta by far and lets all the others know it. It's either clicking CC or U-turn most of the time. This is ok and Knock is nice coverage for when it needs it. As far as being unhealthy or problematic? It's neither. It's manageable imo. Stuff like Vileplume, Mantine, Sylveon, Comfey, and Cresselia are just a few mons that keep this thing in check. Each can recover whatever damage Shao manages to get on them and easily wins the 1v1 outright. I would say eventually, RU will take it from us considering I play that meta as well, but for now, it's settling nicely in the meta and is healthy for it.

:ss/cresselia:
Now, we come to this thing. After some laddering on my suspect alt with Ho3nConfirm3d's team that had a Kee Berry set with CM, I feel Cresselia is definitely a problem here. Speaking of Ho3n, I showed him an SD Decidueye set that can drop this thing at +2 with Poltergeist. Newcomer Drapion also checks Cress very well, but after that the options start to become slim. Dhelmise can win the 1v1, SD Escavalier can too (but I hardly see this mon anymore, let alone an SD set), Golurk, Ninjask "might" be able to win 1v1, and then after that, it becomes slim to none as far as answers to Cress goes. If it were me, I would be in the same boat as Bewear right now and definitely look at it in terms of being tested. I'd rather not have to always have an answer for it in my teams b/c it is stressful with the first two bears mentioned in my post here.


TL;DR:
Suspect Pangoro
Look at Bewear, Cresselia
Mienshao is fine


Rant over!​
 
:mienshao: I do not believe Mienshao is broken right now. Although versatility and splashability make it one of the best pokemon in the metagame, I hardly find it to be restricting. With common answers such as Vileplume, Cresselia and Fairy-types (mainly Sylveon) acting as reliable checks and nicher but also fun options like Runerigus, Weezing and even Corrosive Gas + Toxic Spikes Garbodor around, it is far from a busted, overcentralizing threat.

:bewear: I think this pokemon is far superior to Pangoro in the sense that it provides actual defensive utility thanks to great natural bulk enhanced by Fluffy. It also has easy setup opportunities against fatter teams and can easily devour said teams. Checking the red panda often comes down to unfavourable 50/50s or spamming phys. def Arcanine/Cresselia (which can still lose to SD, btw) in every team (boo!).
I still love this pokemon, tho, very fun to play!
Chople > Silk Scarf btw.
Also, Sitrus Berry > all, personally. Can't remember how many times it saved my life!

:cresselia: Fat annoying duck. As of lately, I've been spamming Leech Life Golisopod a lot as a way to not be caught off-guard by any of Cresselia's shenanigans. It is seriously understated how versatile this pokemon is! Defensive, paraspam, SubCM, itemless, Kee Berry. All sets are veeery annoying to play, specially setup ones (which, admitedly, do take quite a while to get going). Not really broken in my eyes, tho, just a little annoying fat blob.

:tyrantrum: I think this pokemon is very underrated right now. It has literally only 2 reliable defensive checks in Bewear and Mudsdale and devours fatter teams with ease. If the anti-panda movement takes over, I could see this pokemon becoming veeery broken.

:ribombee: Underexplored little critter! Shoutouts to great speed tier, spammable Moonblast, Trick to cripple steels, U-Turn coupled with Shield Dust (gg Effect Spore) and Bug Buzz 2HKOing Vileplume. It can be quite effective with the right team support!

:runerigus: Another shoutout! It checks Mienshao and Bewear pretty well by stealing their abilities, has great utility movepool and dual STAB, provides SR and has good key resistances. Definitely a great pick right now!

I would personally love to see a council vote on all of these Pokemon.
Honestly, agreed?

:torracat: :roselia:
 

Pokeslice

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There's only one thing in the metagame that I feel is in immediate need of a QB or a suspect and that mon is *drumroll* Cress!

Cresselia Shiny sprite from Diamond & Pearl

I mentioned this 1 or 2 months ago right after the final waves of bans that Cress would be busted af, and I was right. As Finch said in his earlier post, Cress literally doesn't die. Like at all. It's tremendous 120/120/130 bulk coupled with Levitate ignoring spikes+a form of recovery means that Cress will sponge anything not a STAB Dark/Ghost/Bug attack with ease, but even then it eats those hits for days. On top of that, it's a speed demon. 85 puts it's speed tier just above our most powerful breakers, such as Goro or TTrum.

As for counterplay, Cress has ways around almost anything you throw at it. Toxic or Trick mons are beat by Sub CM. Strong physical attackers are beat by the new rise of Kee Berry. Steels, except spdef SD Escav the goat, get beat by Stored Power sets. Taunt mons, minus Drapion, can't actually touch it or stop it, especially if it's behind a sub, and the ones that can either can't fit it or aren't actually viable in the metagame. Taunt always feels inconsistent for me. This isn't to say that there isn't counterplay ofc, the aforementioned things along with Haze mons like Mantine, shuffling, Leech Goli, Curse Copper etc exist, but Cress has a way to effectively beat all of them besides Haze, but it's common teammates can almost always take out or abuse all of those threats to Cress. In the end, it's so easy to set up and win for free with this mon, as we saw with suspect reqs this week.

In my eyes, the ability to beat majority of it's counterplay or forcing teams to a very very very short list of usable counterplay that can be easily predictable really pushes it to beyond banworthy in addition to it never ever dying. It's just too much for the tier rn imo and really needs to go now.
Doing this with a suspect test for each of them would take, what, a month and a half? That's so long that I would personally love to see a council vote on all of these Pokemon. They're all pretty broken, it's hard to choose a clear one that is most broken, and banning Bewear would make other mons even less manageable due to its defensive utility. Best to take care of the whole batch together, imo.
As for Goro/Bewear, they probably should go too, and I think Shao is currently healthyish as is and we should wait for it to probably rise or suspect it soon and we should keep a close eye on it, but either way, Expulso raises a great point. Regardless of your stance on any of these problematic mons, we cannot wait 2 months to suspect and get through all of them. A 2 week suspect for all 4, not including other crazy mons like TTrum, would just hold back the tier from growing and developing imo. One more Ban Slate for all of these mons is more than necessary to me.​
 
I've played enough and against all of these buggers enough that hopefully I can articulate my thoughts on these properly. That being said, apologies if this turns into basically echoes of earlier posts.

:sm/bewear:

Like many others in this thread, I totally agree that Bewear is the most oppressive thing in the tier at this time. It's just a monster, with CB and SD sets both seeing use providing it a solid chunk of flexibility. It hits the field and it's taking a kill at the minimum, if not two or three. Thanks to Fluffy and a decent stat distribution, it also has great bulk at a manageable speed tier. Fatter things that try to check it like can lose to SD, and faster things typically cant dispose of it in 1 hit. I would like to see some sort of action taken against this the most.

:sm/cresselia:

My thoughts on Cresselia when I first used it were "man, this thing just gets free wins". Rabia once brought up to me that this pokemon does have serious counterplay that just doesn't see use. It'd be one thing if we're talking about needing Hold Hands Zigzagoon-Galar or whatever to beat this thing, but having to use things like Escavalier, Haze, Roar etc are really not god awful for any team to have. I think that Cresselia is still one of, if not the strongest win condition options in the tier. I just think that action on Cresselia can wait a little until we see some more developments centered around it. I think teching for it can be fine, but not when fat teams need to already pack checks for the fighting breakers in addition to several other potent threats in the tier.

:sm/pangoro:

Pangoro trades a few key elements with Bewear, notably its bulk, for what I'd argue is an even scarier Choice Band set. Fighting + Dark coverage coupled with Gunk Shot and one of Bullet Punch for some speed control or other filler options such as Drain Punch is just incredibly threatening. Pangoro on a free switch most likely forces the other player into a risky situation where a simple read could take out their only Dark resist or something. I'm not as high on the SD set notably because it loses this immediate threat that Pangoro thrives off of while not being as bulky as Bewear to take full advantage of it, but it can still be threatening in its own right and is a strong wincon. I respect all the arguments calling for action on Pangoro, and think it is totally worth the attention its getting even if I think Bewear is the more pressing issue.

:sm/mienshao:

[21:44:23] %zeefable: i really dont think its broken though. its just very good at being good way more often than not. but i dont know if that makes sense or if many people agree with me on that
[21:44:28] quziel: its just
[21:44:30] quziel: really easy to use
[21:44:36] quziel: similar to passimian last gen, or well, lando-t
[21:44:46] quziel: its a bit stronger than either cause regen broke
[21:44:56] quziel: but like, a mon that just is super easy to slot onto every team gets a place

This log is basically how I feel about Mienshao tbh. It's just that good, but I think broken is a stretch. It's frail, can only do so much at a time, and usually comes at the opportunity cost of one of the other two fighting breakers.

I think these are really the only things worth discussing atm, I've seen a few people say that want to do something about Vileplume or Tyrantrum but I don't think those are worth talking about at all until we've reached conclusions on the Fantastic Four here.

I'm new to this, I'm not sure what precedent is on going back to a ban slate after a suspect test. Regardless, I wouldn't be opposed to a slate, but I'd probably like a suspect on the most (if any) pressing of these 4 that survive a ban slate or some other means of balancing executive decisions with community engagement.
 

EonX

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I know we're all focused on the next potential suspects, but I do want to give some love to some other Pokemon that aren't broken or anything, but should definitely be looked at a lot more than they are for use:



This is such a good Pokemon on most teams. Specs Analytic has incredibly few reliable checks and if you don't care for the power, bulky spin support works just fine because it then becomes a pretty consistent Arcanine (I'll get to you later doggy) answer thanks to Natural Cure letting it ignore whatever status the dog might throw at it. Oh, and it still has a fantastic Speed tier that lets it offensively check stuff like Flygon. Sure, having nothing for Blastoise (we'll get to this) sucks ass, but being able to reliably spin with a Spike stack team is an incredible luxury while Specs Analytic is a really fast wallbreaker and the only wallbreaker faster than LO Shao (not that you're ever switching in, but at least it can't either)



I love this mon right now. Even with Copperajah and Bronzong in the tier and running it means you can't deter CC spam from Panda without adding something else, Diancie is great. Body Press was such a huge addition for it since its one Diamond Storm boost on the switch away from making Copper regret life itself. Oh yeah, and +2 Defense Diancie is seriously hell to KO. Diancie + no item Vileplume is seriously one of the best cores out there right now as Diancie is just one boost away from making Copper return for a good rest, and that typically means the opponent won't handle Vileplume well at all the rest of the game. Oh yeah, and did I mention Diancie doesn't care about the spike in Fire-types for Copper + Bear while having outs against these two? Yeah, great mon. Use it more.



Alright, I've referenced it twice. As good as Talonflame is, Arcanine is even better. But not just any Arcanine; Overheat Arcanine. Yeah, I know, Arcanine is a defensive Pokemon, so why would you want Overheat? But what if I told you that you didn't have to care about your health range to beat +2 Bewear? What if I told you that you could all but OHKO Vileplume.... from full with no investment needed and no need to worry about Effect Spore? What if I told you that you could do this while still almost always 2HKOing Copperajah without taking tons of recoil damage? Better yet, what if I said one move could do all of these things? Enter Overheat. Accuracy not withstanding, Overheat accomplishes all of this with 0 investment (well, minus the minor Speed investment you should be running for Jolly Bear anyway) because of its much higher burst damage coupled with the higher overall damage output arcross 2 successive turns than Flamethrower. The obvious negative compared to Flamethrower (other than accuracy) is PP, but take a step back and think about how often you're realistically using Arcanine's Fire move. (I'm going to regret bringing up this tech)



I've kinda scoffed at this mon for a while, but I've finally started to see the light with it. SubSmash is incredibly potent since it can use some trendy Pokemon as setup chances. Getting a free Sub against Bronzong, Arcanine, and spin support Starmie is incredible when these Pokemon are all quite common. Add in the fact that with Modest nature, it still outspeeds Scarf Mienshao by 1 point at +2, and that's all you need. The big kicker is Sub actually helping provide the power boost Blastoise usually needs. Sub helps it reach Torrent to crank up its Water moves to necessary levels against bulkier targets. Just as an example, defensive Sylveon goes from comfortably taking +2 Surf (not even taking 60%) to being clobbered for 73% minimum. It's great on hyper offense teams whether they be spike stack or screens, and it just works well as a great wincon against bulkier teams relying on common bulky Pokemon. Don't worry about Dark Pulse or Aura Sphere; you don't need them.



I know the tier is really heavy on Fighting- and Steel-types right now, but we're really gonna forget these exist? Exploud's switch-ins are, well, what they've always been; very few and one prediction or switch-in away from being 2HKOed by Boomburst later. The speed tier is fine for a wallbreaker since Pangoro typically runs Adamant anyway. Heck, it can even run Sleep Talk since all it really needs is Fire Blast and Hydro Pump (why does it get this?) for coverage. Tyrantrum is utterly terrifying if you don't have a Chople Bewear on your team. If you don't have Chople Bewear, good luck switching into Band Tyrantrum, like ever. Copper? 2HKOed through a resist. Bronzong? Hangs on by the skin of its teeth (bells?) against 2 Head Smashes. And although Scarf might not have the greatest Speed tier, it operates similar to how it did back in ORAS RU; it crushes offense while not being a complete liability against bulkier teams because Head Smash is just that strong on it. Rock Polish is probably viable on Screens, but I'd rather just Smash stuff honestly.
 
Allow me to add my two cents regarding the potential future suspect tests:

:Bewear:

This mon is a threat, nobody is gonna dispute that. Fluffy augmented bulk giving it many switch in opportunities as well as powerful STABs and basically all the coverage it needs in Darkest Lariat makes SD Bewear one of the most potent sweepers in the metagame. Additionally, the item on Bewear makes a huge difference; Chople Berry allows it to take 2 Close Combat's from the likes of Mienshao, Silk Scarf gives its STAB Double-Edge's more immediate power, Choice Band grants nuclear power at the cost of prediction, and Lum Berry can even be used to shrug off burns and poison, just to name a few. That being said, Bewear isn't impossible to answer. Arcanine in particular comes to mind, but other decent checks include bulky Escavalier, Cresselia, and status in general (as Lum Berry is ultimately not that common), as well as exploiting Double-Edge recoil and meh base 60 speed. I could definitely understand a suspect purely based on this things offensive capabilities, but it is worth noting some of the viable counterplay.

:Pangoro:

I have been on the #Bangoro train for a while, and I have yet to be convinced that it isn't broken. It is true that in a stronger, faster metagame, Pangoro can find it tough to get in and then just be forced out, but I think that people basing their arguments around this are omitting some common metagame scenarios. For starters, despite the meta being faster, there are still plenty of slow, bulky mons that are incredibly popular, including Bronzong, Copperajah, Sylveon, and to a lesser extent, Vileplume. While getting Pangoro in can be a chore, as even the bulky meta can threaten it, once it's in, it causes chaos. If all your Pangoro does in a game is click Knock Off, you are still going to deal massive damage and provide a lot of utility for your teams greater wallbreaking efforts regardless of if you're running CB or SD. But wait, you say, Sylveon is one of the more common mons in the tier. Well just to give you an idea of how safe that is as a "counter", ignoring that Sylveon is a nigh guaranteed OHKO from CB Gunk Shot, if it gets Knocked, it must stay in pristine condition to avoid being 2HKOd by Close Combat, as it takes 74.6-87.8% from 2. The fact that I was actually considering running itemless Vileplume to switch in and take the second Knock speaks to how few switches the mon has. The other thing I hear from Pangoro proponents is that its speed isn't good enough, especially since its slower than other mid-speed breakers. Here's the thing... it doesn't care. If you're running speed on faster defensive mons, chances are your running 241 to outspeed Jolly Bewear, so you dont really lose anything by running Adamant and Pangoro still has workable speed, it is only 2 points behind Bewear after all. It needs to go. #Bangoro

:Mienshao:

This mon is good. Really, really good. Scarf is the best speed control in the tier, CB Reckless hits like an 18-wheeler , LO breaks things with effectively no drawback, the list goes on and on. But, this mon is not broken. The biggest difference between when Mienshao first dropped and now in this case is the "discovery" of Vileplume, Talonflame, Charizard, Sylveon, and a few others that really stop it cold. Now of course, it can knock all of its checks and counters and a good player can get through them with team support, but that reasoning applies to all good offensive mons. Great? Yes. S Tier? I'd say yes even though the VR currently has it in A+. Broken? No.

:Cresselia:

Time for the hot take! This mon is not broken. Is it amongst the most devastating sweepers in the tier? Absolutely, but the counterplay to it is everywhere and not all that difficult to fit on teams. The issue with Cress is that it has to boost to pose any kind of threat, and its not that difficult to invalidate those boosts. Haze/Clear Smog, Roar/Whirlwind, Trick, Toxic, and Taunt are moves that have surprisingly high distribution in the current list of NU mons. This means that everything from Copperajah to Drapion can easily fit an anti Cress move, and in most cases they can switch in pretty easily. Just to name a few mons that can beat Cresselia defensively (assuming the tech); you've got Drapion, Copperajah, Escavalier, Comfey, Mantine, and to a lesser extent, Blastoise. Offensively, it's murdered by Drapion and Escavalier, as well as anything that can boost in its face. But wait you say, what about Substitute? That paired with Cresselia's speed can invalidate a good amount of the counterplay. Sure, but that's dependent on speed and doesn't beat phasers/hazers. Furthermore, those sets tend to run Leftovers and can be murdered by Poltergeist users. You can beat that with the newly popular Kee Berry, but then chances are you're not running Sub and then you're just toxic stalled. Well okay there's counterplay to the sweep, you say, but even if you invalidate it defensively, Cresselia still serves its role as a blanket check. Sure, but there's a reason that Cresselia is no longer the "Lugia of OU" as it was in gen4. Being Knock and U-turn weak paired with its 8 PP, weather dependent recovery and lack of offense without boosts makes Cresselia formidably bulky to be sure, but highly flawed. I think the metagame deserves some time to more thoroughly adapt to Cresselia's presence, and if it's still an issue, then we can suspect it. I simply find it overhyped, as calling a mon that's stalled out by Mantine busted is amusing to me.
 

Katy

Banned deucer.
General Thoughts on the NU Metagame:

The great Fighters:
:pangoro: Seems still scary to me, as with a strong CB-boosted Knock Off and a strong CB-boosted Close Combat it can pick off even defensive pokemon like Sylveon off. It also has a great ability in Scrappy which means defensive counterplay such as Arcanine can't use their ability in Intimidate to lower its Attack, furthermore Ghost-types can't switchin at all due to it, so defensive counterplay is rather small. Comfey is the closest I think which can not only defensively threaten it, but also offensively threaten it due to its great speed-tier and typing. But a well times Gunk Shot even picks this off.

:bewear: Another demonic Fighting-type in the tier with an amazing ability in Fluffy which makes it hard to kill without a great special breaker in the team or super-effective coverage options. Bewear doesn't even have to fear the Ghost-types running around as with Darkest Lariat it can take care of them and a Normal- and Dighting-type STAB combination in general is threatening for the tier. Bewear seems more threatening to me in my eyes currently as with a Swords Dance-Boost and its Fighting-coverage in Drain Punch it can give itself also longevity during the battles, whereas the above mentioned Pangoro relies on a strong Close Combat to dent through walls.



Profiteurs from the Sigilyph Ban:
:articuno-galar: Cresselia still stands in the way of Galarcuno as the premier Psychic-type but with Sigilyph banned it has less competition now.
:celebi: Sigilyph was a monstrosity for our favorite onion, but now it has a brigher time ahead of itself with slightly less competition , U-turners and strong Bug-types such as Golisopod and coverage however makes its life still a little difficult.



Generally great Pokemon:
:goodra: Has numerous of Sets which can be very useful and offers itself as a great special sponge in the iter as well with itsw crazygood special defensive and its good typing in Dragon.
:golurk: Still is one of the scariest Pokemon to switch into when it comes to Poltergeist spam.
:rotom-mow: Offers great utility options, plethora of sets, great offensive pivot with U-turn, great typing and Levitate, which is much appreciated as it can beat the most Stealth Rock-setters in the tier.
:starmie: Amazing speed tier, great typing, offensively and defensively alike, recently i've used the bulky spin Starmie and it is great as well as a fast hazard control option which - after a use of Rapid Spin - outspeeds most of the metagame. Flip Turn on this set can be also great, although I'd prefer running Psychic-type STAB on it, so its not entirely walled by Pokemon such as Mantine.
:mienshao: It and the aforementioned Rotom-Mow forme an excellent Volt-TurnCore and it is worth to try out more Volt-TurnCores in the metagame in general
:drapion: with a great dual-typing, plethora of viable Item-choices and a solid Speed-tier is one of the best Pokemon in the tier currently, which has the important trait to offensively check Cresselia, Bronzong, Sylveon, and Comfey. It also has Aqua Tail in case Drapion wants to hit bulky Grounds such as Mudsdale.



Pokemon to further explore:
:decidueye: Swords Dance-Sets are really good right now and in general is a great switchin to Rotom-Mow and can pressure Golurk and Dhelmise.
:braviary: Great Anitmeasure vs Golurk, Dhelmise, and Decidueye as it is immune to both of Golurks STABs, and offers a great defensive typing for a metagame where Poltergeist-spam is so big. Its definitely worth a shot!
 
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Mariannabelle

chill guy
:Pangoro: I'm with EonX on this one; yeah, hard to switch into multiple times, but on the other hand, Pangoro is simultaneously outsped and demolished by the majority of opposing wallbreakers, and doesn't have the defensive utility of something like Bewear or Tyrantrum to compensate. To reiterate, Pangoro can really punish certain critters but it is also one of the easiest things in the tier to punish in return. i'm inclined to say that this is fine.

:Bewear: It's almost as hard to consistently wall as Pangoro, but it also has a notably better Speed tier and has much better set versatility and defensive utility from Fluffy. A much harder critter to defend, if you ask me, especially considering that I've been slapping Arcanine all over the place specifically for and only for Bewear.

:Mienshao: Not overwhelming, but I am convinced that Mienshao is highly restrictive when it comes to building offense, considering the following:
- You're relegated to using either super niche / RNG abilities to try and wear it down (modified by the fact that Sylveon with Heal Bell is one of the easiest mons to justify running atm)
- Many, many offensive critters cannot justify setting up as long as the extremely-hard-to-wear-down Shao is alive. No DD, no SD Vally, no Hone Claws Aerodactyl or whatever. Maybe Dragon Dance Aerodactyl...? :blobthinking:

:Cresselia: Broken, big broken. Whether it's running some extremely specific mon like ass Drapion that just kinda sucks outside the Cress matchup, or (offensive) Escavalier when you know you want Copper or Zong, or spamming Toxic when no other mon requires that counterplay, or using Haze now that we have only one mon instead of two to consistently use it on (bye bye Sigilyph), or running some heatah fajita like Shadow Punch Golurk, you are absolutely bending over backwards to accommodate this numerically insane mon and we really don't need to continue doing that. A bigger problem than Bewear.
To clarify, there's plenty of stuff you can slap on for Cress, but the problem is that a lot of these options are subpar, and in some cases, useless outside the Cress matchup. Whirlwind Drapion (actually, Drapion in general): Only for Cress. Escavalier, pretty much the same boat. Honestly, what am I gonna bother using Haze on Mantine for besides Cress now that Sigilyph is gone? And yes, I say that with confidence- hazers and phazers as they are used now are basically for Cress' sake only and I do not consider that healthy.
 
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Finchinator

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I love this mon being here. Best scarfer in the meta by far and lets all the others know it. It's either clicking CC or U-turn most of the time. This is ok and Knock is nice coverage for when it needs it. As far as being unhealthy or problematic? It's neither. It's manageable imo. Stuff like Vileplume, Mantine, Sylveon, Comfey, and Cresselia are just a few mons that keep this thing in check. Each can recover whatever damage Shao manages to get on them and easily wins the 1v1 outright. I would say eventually, RU will take it from us considering I play that meta as well, but for now, it's settling nicely in the meta and is healthy for it.
While I do agree with a vast majority of your post, I do not think I agree with this. The Choice Scarf set is fantastic for the metagame, but the Life Orb set is where we run into trouble. I would argue that it is on a short list of reasons as to why Vileplume shot up to being one of the top 5-10 Pokemon in the tier. And if you are not running Vileplume or one of a small handful of other Pokemon, then you're in trouble. Poison Jab is able to do more than enough to Sylveon (or Comfey) on the switch-in, Knock Off + U-turn can make it so that Mantine and Cresselia are only very temporary checks, andn there are few things that can revenge kill Mienshao as is, but none can do so while avoiding risking an OHKO after hazard damage.

I feel like being able to outright 1v1 something is not enough to really give you much leverage against it, especially when it is a Pokemon with Regenerator, U-turn, and a ton of base speed in the context of the metagame. I think framing things more in the context of gameplay is of greater importance. Given that, I find LO Mienshao a bit too restrictive (see: forcing Vileplume) and I worry that it will warp the tier over time. I do think that ranking the Fighting types in terms of brokenness is hard, but I do not believe that Mienshao is healthy.
 

shiloh

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going to drop my personal thoughts here.

:dp/cresselia:
i am against a test for cress @ this current point in time. while it has had a fairly recent increase in usage, especially for its cm/rest sets, i believe that a lot of the current problems that people have with it are just due to errors in the builder. cress as a sweeper is just something people arent really used to having to prepare for since it requires different counterplay when compared to other sweepers. while a lot of the current sweepers in the tier are more offensively oriented (think bewear/flygon/salazzle etc) most teams havent really adapted to checking cress and think thats the main reason ppl have been calling for a suspect/ban. most teams pre-cress could get away w/ 3 atks jah/zong being the only steels used and the only ones really needed as a psychic check. while those two do compress a lot of roles, other steels that can check cress/while still doing most of what jah/zong are able to do. other counterplay does exist, and is just not used as well; phazing/trick/haze/taunt are all viable ways to beat cress, and are not exclusive to only beating cress as well. drapion/escavalier are also perfectly viable mons that can do a multitude of other things other than checking cress, and the fact that they are able to check cress is just a boon in their favor and not a sign that cress is unhealthy. escav is able to still check a lot of the other psychic types that jah/zong do, even doing a better job against mons like celebi. drapion as well is just a solid mon all around in my opinion, and while some people may not think its good, the fact of the matter is that even for just checking cress its viable, and even without that its still a great set up mon w/ great typing and swords dance, can support a team w/ tspikes, and can even use choice items to good affect.

cress also has the issue of having to pick and choose its set for some matchups, leading to it not always having the matchup that it wants. while rest sets are good, it has to do without sleep talk most of the time otherwise all dark types will hard wall it since it wont be running moonblast. this means that it has two turns where it cant set up / attack, and those can be used to fish for crits/phaze it out/trick it or even use mons like bewear to darkest lariat and break through since it ignores kee. if its also forced out after using rest, it comes a lot harder to use later on in the game as it has to first wake up without having any boosts. moonlight sets suffer from having to also choose between being weak to status by dropping sub, walled by darks by dropping moonblast, or risk getting pp stalled by some steels by dropping stored power. they also suffer from moonlights lack of pp, and it can easily get run out throughout a game. both rest/moonlight also share the issue of being unideal recovery moves in the fact that they both dont let cress act as a fighting/ground type check or a general wall throughout the game since it either burns through its moonlight pp real quick, or its forced to rest early making it harder to sweep in the late game.

overall while i do think cress is a good sweeper, i still feel it just needs to be adapted to due to the fact its recent rise has left a lot of older teams vulnerable to it. i do not mind looking @ it in the future, but i feel as the counterplay starts to be used (since it is viable outside of just checking cress) cress will still be used, but it will not be broken @ the levels people are saying it is rn.

council vote on all of these Pokemon
explained my thoughts on this in the discord, but i am completely against council votes at this stage, and dont even want to see it discussed atm. in my opinion, council tests should be used sparingly, and only really after major tier shifts / at the beginning of generations. while they have been the norm throughout this generation, all of this can be attributed to the rapid pace that dlc gave us, and the fact the tier wasnt really settled at any point over the last year bc of this. council votes made sense during this period, and we even did 4 of them from the start of december to the start of january, so doing another one after a public suspect test and no major shift due to drops makes no sense to me.

i also disagree with the fact that just bc 4 mons are being "looked at" by council for a suspect means all 4 have to be suspected. i just posted my thoughts on why i would be against a cress suspect atm, and i think most posts in this thread so far are just leaning towards pangoro/bewear. even if it takes a couple months to get through a few more public tests, i do not see the tier in such a problematic stage that we need to continue doing weekly/bi-weekly council votes like we were doing before.
 

Oathkeeper

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While I do agree with a vast majority of your post, I do not think I agree with this. The Choice Scarf set is fantastic for the metagame, but the Life Orb set is where we run into trouble. I would argue that it is on a short list of reasons as to why Vileplume shot up to being one of the top 5-10 Pokemon in the tier. And if you are not running Vileplume or one of a small handful of other Pokemon, then you're in trouble. Poison Jab is able to do more than enough to Sylveon (or Comfey) on the switch-in, Knock Off + U-turn can make it so that Mantine and Cresselia are only very temporary checks, andn there are few things that can revenge kill Mienshao as is, but none can do so while avoiding risking an OHKO after hazard damage.

I feel like being able to outright 1v1 something is not enough to really give you much leverage against it, especially when it is a Pokemon with Regenerator, U-turn, and a ton of base speed in the context of the metagame. I think framing things more in the context of gameplay is of greater importance. Given that, I find LO Mienshao a bit too restrictive (see: forcing Vileplume) and I worry that it will warp the tier over time. I do think that ranking the Fighting types in terms of brokenness is hard, but I do not believe that Mienshao is healthy.
I agree with you here. To be honest though, I rarely (if at all) see wallbreaker variants of Shao either in tour games or on ladder but I do sympathize with it being a problem. I guess at a glance, I find it to be manageable but again, I hardly ever see it to form a decent opinion on whether or not it is unhealthy. Agreeing with you that Vileplume should be high in usage now if it wasn't before simply for Shao alone. Knock does like 30%-ish to get rid of Black Sludge and then after that, Plume just laughs at anything. Outside of Plume however, pickins are slim in terms of checks to it. So yeah, long story short, I did not consider wallbreaker variants simply based on the fact that I hardly ever see them and only see scarf variants. Good points that you brought up. With that being said, kudos to you at convincing me to definitely have Mienshao be looked at for a suspect test at least. It may be hard to tell what set it's running at team preview and if caught off-guard, it'll screw u over.
 
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poh

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damn this is a complex one :smogduck:
i'll only touch upon the mons that i've the best view on, might post about the bears further down the line


i believe the tier does not have enough sufficient, consistent and viable counterplay to cress. it has just the right speedtier to avoid the usual answers one would use to break down such a bulky mon like say a pangoro or a tyrantrum. ofc its immense bulk pre-calm mind/kee berry gives it plenty of opportunities to set up while also still acting as a fighting type check. now, how does one usually tackle this mon;
  • toxic? one of the best ways to deal with it but substitute and smart playing renders this option almost obsolete. not to mention heal bell sylveon is one of the most splashable mons in the tier.
  • setting up alongside it. mons like drapion and decidueye do a decent job at this but must be fairly healthy each time cress tries to tip the game in its favor.
  • defensively checking this is tough. like rozes said, escavalier and drapion are good checks but it kinda ends there. cress can effectively beat all the other steel types and dark types.
  • i firmly believe stat reduction and phazing do not beat cress longterm. idk which mon would run haze without turning into something extremely passive and clear smog gastro falls flat vs substitute. phazing only postpones the inevitable 1v1 scenario where cress is the last mon and can start setting up, and again drapion seems like the only mon who could save the day with a taunt + whirlwind set (drapion has way better things to do than that imo, but thats besides the point). trick cripples it severely yes but how many viable trick mons do we have? 2? 3?
the perceived flaw of it losing to A or B depending on its set is a good argument but can also be easily solved with the right teammates.
subless cress? run heal bell support, play smart, bait a scald and get the burn (lets say a rotom-mow trying to wisp a copper)
mono psy-stab? tweak your team to lure in the dark types, not something impossible to do, our dark types tend to be slow and/or frail.

i tried running bug types as counterplay like ribombee and leech life pod but they each struggle with their own problems in the meta as a whole.
so how do we wanna adapt further to cress? do we have enough tools available to adapt to cress or are we all gonna start running taunt/roar/toxic on random mons?

duck rant over


almost exactly a month ago i wanted this mon gone alongside the now departed toxtricity and slowbro for reasons that are still relevant a month after.
  • scarf mienshao: this set invalidates a whole chunck of speedbracket containing mons that could very well solve our current meta issues. pokemon like heliolisk, tauros, aerodactyl, archeops, inteleon and many, many more can't properly do their thing without being forced out constantly by mienshao threatning with the ohko. knock and uturn slowly but surely chip your fighting check until you realise that 1. your scarfer can't revengekill it unless you're running mienshao yourself 2. your fighting check has taken too many hits for it to be healthy enough in the endgame. i say endgame cause regenerator allows it to stay healthy throughout the game and thus often outlasting its checks.
  • life orb: this set makes checking it defensively even more of a nightmare. dishing out hits with close to 0 drawbacks while you watch your opponent frantically going back and forth while you mindlessly click cc, poison jab and uturn.
it's way too strong and durable for how ridiculously fast it can be.

tl;dr: the tier does not have enough sufficient, consistent and viable counterplay to cress and mienshao is an unhealthy presence in the tier. both chokeholding the current meta and stunting its growth
 
HI! So I have been laddering for a while now and I want to share my thoughts on some of the Pokémon listed.

Firstly I'd just like to talk about the four pokemon generally.

:bewear:
:mienshao:
:pangoro:
:cresselia:

I think if any one of these were to be banned, it would make the others more broken. If cresselia goes, it makes the fighters even better. If pangoro goes, there is one less check to cresselia. If mienshao goes, there's one less revenge killer to pangoro and bewear. If bewear goes, it makes it even easier for pangoro to spam knock off/ other coverage moves.

I also do not think a council vote is necessary, idek why ppl are suggesting it lol. i think the tier has stabilized enough that nothing really deserves to be qb. Like rozes (i hope the tag worked) mentioned in her post, council votes should rly only be done sparingly.

moving on from that...


:ss/cresselia:

Honestly, I think this is unhealthy for the metagame. There are ways of dealing with Cresselia, however most counterplay can be beaten depending on the Cresselia set. Of course, it can't run every move in the game, but it is a pretty versatile mon. Cresselia has definitely seen better days, however that does not mean it is not unhealthy for the tier. poh (i hope i tagged properly??) has explained how Cresselia is so good, and how it can bypass ways of dealing with it. There's less than a handful of Pokemon that can reliably switch in and deal with Cresselia, with drapion and escav being the ones coming to mind. I have seen some talk about haze Pokemon, and how they can beat Cresselia 1v1 through pp stalling. Personally, if pp stalling is one of the few effective ways to deal with a pokemon, I don't believe it increases the growth of the tier. Nor is it enjoyable to play with, for anyone. If your mantine (or other haze user) runs out of their offensive move pp, it makes it extremely easy for other Pokemon to take advantage of them. Imagine playing extremely long and drawn-out games because of pp stalling. There's also been talk about limiting Cresselia's recovery by using Gigalith or hail, which I'd also like to talk about. While sand does limit Cresselia's recovery, most Cresselia won't be setting up in sand. It limits Cresselia's setup. However does not mean it cannot set up at a later portion of the game, or cleanup weakened teams, even in sand. Cresselia's teammates, such as fighting types are able to switch in on a rock blast or protect and claim a KO on a mon. Gigalith is also not that splashable on teams, nor fits on a lot of teams. Hail is decent, but not the best playstyle in the tier, nor is it something that is popular.

:ss/pangoro:

This has been a hot topic recently, and I definitely see why. However I do not think it should be tested before Cresselia or the other two fighters. Pangoro is good, and will almost always get a kill when it is in. However it's sometimes hard to get in safely, and is easily revenged killed by strong attacks. It's also almost always choice locked, meaning it can be easy to take advantage of if you know what move it's locked into. (cress and bewear being some notable examples). Compared to bewear, which will always get a kill, however is not choiced locked, and also bypasses plume and sylveon. It's strong, but not banworthy imo. (for now at least)

:ss/bewear:

I think this pokemon is extremely strong, and maybe even broken. For starters, this pokemon has no trouble getting in. Switching in on many physical hits, and being able to set up from there. It's an extremely potent breaker that will almost always get a kill when it's in. Not everything is sunshine and rainbows for this pokemon. Similar to Pangoro, it can be easily revenged killed, especially after it uses one of its stab moves. However revenging options are more limited than Pangoro, with things like vileplume, sylveon and draining kiss comfey not able to revenge this mon. It is also pretty self destructive, basically weakening and killing itself after going for double edge. I think looking into this pokemon is necessary due to it's tremendous breaking power and easy access to set up safely. I'm not completely sold on it being unhealthy for the tier, however it should be looked at.

:ss/mienshao:

Probably the most controversial of the two fighters, mienshao is a pokemon that has much of this community divided. It can u turn out of most of its checks, has strong moves in cc, knock off, stone edge etc... and has access to regenerator. Not much punishes this pokemon, which the few pokemon being talonflame, vileplume and ngas weezing. Mienshao is an extremely splashable pokemon, and is not easily punished by its moves. It's true, mienshao is still punished by a few pokemon, and is extremely frail. However despite all of this, I do think it is broken. Frailty does not matter if you're simply gonna u turn on pokemon that would otherwise demolish you. Getting that chip, and bringing in a counter to the pokemon brought out ensures they will likely not receive recovery. It's extremely easy to wear down mienshao's checks, and unlike the previous fighters, it isn't easily revenge killed. There's only 2, maybe 3 pokemon that reliably punish mienshao. In my eyes, it makes it restrictive on the builder, because if you don't have plume, talonflame or ngas weezing (u lose to grounds now), your team becomes easy to take advantage of by meinshao. Unless you're running screens, which isn't the most consistent and can still be dented heavily by mienshao. Oftentimes games are decided by who wins the mienshao speed tie. This is not even factoring in its sd set or banded sets. Both of which can leave holes in the opponent's team needed for mienshao's teammates to sweep. Overall I do not think mienshao is a healthy presence for the metagame, and should be suspect tested soon (maybe after cresselia??)
 
Haven't posted in a while. Not gonna write too much because a lot of people have gone into detail so there's not much else to say. I'll just list them from them from how problematic they are. :heart:

Shiny Hunter - VGC Player — Shiny Cresselia - Lunar Dance

:Cresselia: The most broken thing right now. I'm just gonna say that Drapion isn't really that great of a check/counter considering knock off is weak and Cresselia will most likely be at +1 on the switch. Investment and Black Sludge are needed if you want to be more consistent but I haven't really been a big fan on these defensive drapion sets because they just tend to idle around or fail to check other relevant special and physical attackers. Regular SD is best.

+1 20 SpA Cresselia Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Drapion: 105-124 (37.3 - 44.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Cresselia most likely has Colbur Berry (best item from my experience) so you're gonna be needing to boost up with drapion first to break through and then you will need to keep it at full health through the battle. Copperajah isn't that great of check too and while it's good that people have been exploring different options with like Curse, this forces you to drop coverage / AV which are Copper's strong points and it only takes a knock off for Cresselia to beat you. Whilst there are checks depending on sets you're really taking a gamble on team preview because toxic Bronzong and other random toxic mons will lose to sub or rest, Pangoro and dark friends take a moonblast to the face or your psychic resists will be overwhelmed by Stored Power Boosts. There's a good chance this mon will outlast it's checks thanks to Moonlight.
Cresselia is very much ban worthy / needs a suspect test immediately ! :[

Bewear y Stufful | Pokemon, Pokemon pictures, Pokemon memes

:bewear: Second on my list. Wallbreaker + Hard tank = rip everything. Yes Arcanine is a check but there are some ways you can get past it. For example, Lum Berry is an excellent item choice given how many mons can spread poisons or burns such as Bronzong, Vileplume, Talonflame, Mantine, Mudsdale, Flygon, Gastrdon for example. Beware will naturally force out a lot of switches so you'll have the opportunity to click Swords Dance before their check comes in. Neither Flare Blitz or Flamethrower actually ohko meaning you can get off a double edge for huge damage after the attack or status condition. Cresselia is quite similar to Arcanine being that it's not strong enough to OHKO meaning you can get off a strong boosted double-edge. (chipping cresselia isn't that difficult.) Other than that, the defensively counterplay is rather limited so it just comes to a case of prediction on attacks. Don't even think about switching in Vileplume or Sylveon because they die 100% of the time after a SD. Your best counters are Sableye and Spiritomb but they're bad memes. :( Ban worthy / deserves a suspect test!

drain punch Tumblr posts - Tumbral.com

:mienshao: 3rd place lol. It's not strong enough to break Cresselia but it's definitely annoying to take Scarf U-turns or Life Orb Knock off + U-Turn. (not to mention rocks o_o) Weezing and Palossand are underrated mons because they both consistently check Mienshao (please use them ;_;) but in general this mon can outpace and threaten almost all the tier between LO and Choice Scarf so I do think it deserves a suspect in some given time. Slightly unhealthy and eventually should deserve a suspect :o

Pangoro GIF by doctorgecko | Gfycat

:Pangoro: I think this mon is solid but just a bit worse off than Bewear/Mienshao because their niches are more defining. I guess SD is probably good too o_o and then you can still use Bullet Punch or Gunk Shot for fast mons / fairy types but CB will still always be the best but just prediction reliant. Idk its slow speed and average bulk mean it'll only get probably 2 attacks vs offense. CB is kinda difficult to switch into but a decent number of mons can play around it like no item Vileplume, Arcanine, Bewear. Sylveon, comfey, cresselia and even regen mienshao. I think it's fairly predictable in these situations because naturally you'll want to click knock off on CB in the early game because there are no drawbacks but then they're more likely to click fighting stabs or gunk shot in the later game so there is a margin of prediction with some of the mons I listed which have the chance to come in on CB. Take action on the others mons before this. No suspect test for pangoro!
 
Hi Nu.. low ladder lifer (i really REALLY hate ladder) giving some troughts about the big 4
:sm/pangoro: Is the least treatening of the bunch in my eyes lesser bulk and speed than Bewear, being easily revenge killed bc of that. Is a pain to bulkier time but the game is like choose to sack a mon for each team lol.

:sm/bewear: The most usefful fighting type of the 3, being both a physical tank and a setup swepper is pretty good rn. Things like Overheat Talomflame and Flametrower RK9 give bad time but no one in the tier take +2 double edge (ghost type doenst count)

:bw/mienshao: What i better than high speed and Uturn? Regenerator + High Speed + Uturn. Only Rocky Helmet mons with specific abilities like Weezing or Rune can switch and punish the free move in history of Pokemon. Also LO Breaker is kinda bonker (can throw 2 attacks and take rocks dmg recovering everything with Regen). Also if thing got banned Mr Passimian come to life again in the tier

:bw/cresselia: What can i say if everything has been know? Only two "counter" in Drapion and Escavalier make this the stronger setup sweeper in the tier with diference.

Also if NU suspect the Psychic Duck they are gonna be a suspect in every official (RIP ZU) non Uber Tier.
OU: Broken Horse
UU: Latias
RU: Thundurus
NU: (CRESSELIA PLS)
PU: Virizion (ty Game Freak)
 
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