Metagame NP: NU Stage 8 - Venus as a Boy (Venusaur banned from NU)

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etern

etern

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Hi everyone, we're moving forward into the next stage of NU by suspect testing Venusaur.
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Venusaur is unarguably the most fearsome and versatile Pokemon in NeverUsed right now. High power STAB moves backed up by fantastic bulk, great Special Attack, and a myriad of utility moves such as Sleep Powder limits the tier's ability to react to this Pokemon defensively. Venusaur can run any set ranging from Z-Celebrate, Choice Specs, Life Orb, Specially Defensive, and Weather based sets. This versatility makes it very easy to fit on any type of team and therefore there is extremely low opportunity cost in using it.

Venusaur will be allowed on the ladder during this suspect test.

The voting requirements will be a minimum of 40 games played and 79 GXE. This suspect period will last for 2 weeks, ending Wednesday, May 16th at 11:59 PM EST.

Tagging The Immortal for the ladder.

/!\ Rules for posting in this thread /!\
  1. No one liners nor uninformed posts;
  2. No discussion on other potential suspects;
  3. No discussion on the suspect process;
  4. You are required to make respectful posts;
Failing to follow these simple guidelines will result into your post being deleted and infracted without any prior warning.
 
Venusaur has been an extremely powerful force in the tier for the duration of it being here and I personally think it is too versatile to stay in the tier. Between its various offensive and defensive sets, I think that the Z-Celebrate set pushes it over the edge, as its ability to omniboost pushes both its offensive and defensive stats to higher levels. People have started to realize that Synthesis is one of the best moves with the Z Celebrate set, and it makes it increasingly difficult to knock out through previously conventional methods. Venusaur's unpredictability is a huge part in making it very difficult to prepare for as its different sets have different answers, often case a check to one set loses to another other set. I would expect for Venusaur to be banned as a result of this suspect test. I will leave you all with this quote for inspiration:
 
Venusaur is quite literally the best Pokemon in the tier right now; its versatility and sheer power make it really difficult to deal with. I'll attempt to write about why I feel Venusaur deserves a ban. This will mainly be about its Z-Celebrate + Growth set, though other sets are very good.

Lack of defensive counterplay
Venusaur definitely has solid defensive answers in the tier: Garbodor, Silvally-Steel, and Golbat all hard-wall it, with Pokemon like Incineroar, Toxicroak, and Klinklang providing shaky checks. The problem with the defensive counterplay we have is simply how limited it is and how Venusaur doesn't really lose to most of them; Golbat 100% beats Z-Celebrate Venusaur, but things like Garbodor and Silvally-Steel just don't do anything back to it, and Incineroar and Klinklang rely on really idealized situations to win 1v1.

Lack of offensive counterplay
There really aren't a whole lot of Pokemon commonly seen that can revenge kill Venusaur at +1; Scarf Delphox, Scarf Scyther, Scarf Braviary, and Sneasel (Ice Shard) come to mind, but Delphox is an unmon, Sneasel is on the decline and relies on criticals/major chip on Venusaur, and Scyther just isn't that common. What really makes Venusaur so hard to revenge kill is that +1 boost to its defenses, allowing it to literally eat up hits that would otherwise kill/severely dent it.

Recent trends
Many of the recent trends in the meta do really favor Venusaur; with AV Slowbro and Slowking becoming more prevalent, as is Diancie, Venusaur is finding it much easier to spam STAB Leaf Storms, or just win once you Z-Celebrate. Yeah, it isn't impossible to still fit Golbat in with a revenge killer, but I feel Venusaur is forcing a lot of constraint during team building. I will also concede Sand rising isn't the greatest for Venusaur given Stoutland's ability to b o p Venusaur on the head, but again, the bulk Venusaur gains from Z-Celebrate makes that hard.

Summary of my points lol
1) there's like 3 mons that counter venusaur defensively but only 1 of them actually beats it
2) no real offensive checks outside of scarf braviary which relies on being near full and winning a potential speed tie
3) rise of bulky waters and diancie literally existing just helps venu more
4) z-moves are obnoxious send help

BAN DINOSAUR
 
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Ok let me start with, IT WAS ABOUT FREAKING TIME. Venusaur has always been a mayor threat in the metagame ever since it dropped with its great defensive and offensive typing and great diversity of moves. There are little to no reason to not use this mon. You need a special sponge? use venusaur, You need a wallbreaker? use specs or life orb venu, You need a revenge killer? Use scarf venu (tho this set is rarely used), You need a physical wall? well you use slowbro, but venu can also work. But the set that really pushes it out of the edge is the Z celebrate one IMO. The recent drops only made venusaur better since it can nuke or set up on diancie and gigalith, can be used on sand as a solid water resist (tho ferroseed is usually better).

Like it was said in the previous post Z celebrate venusaur is really hard to prepare for, getting +1 boosts on all your stats is plain stupid. The fact that venusaur has a great defensive typing and great bulk makes it really easy to set up. Yes there are mons like golbat that counter it but its really hard to fit on a team. Common grass resists and poison resists still lose to it. Growth lets it break break through bulky steel and poison types like garbodor silvally steel and even toxicroak if they take any chip damage, earthquake is also a option if you really want to break those mons. Giga Drain provides this mon a solid way of recovery so even priority moves get limited. There are ways to revenge kill venusaur but most of them are either really bad or get whittled way to easily. Scarf delphox is a way to revenge kill it but this set really dislikes this meta and is really bad, Scyther takes half from rocks and is usually pressured out a lot, sneasel needs to make sure venusaur is under half or its not revenge killing it.

In resume, the great diversity of sets venusaur has and its dominant set (z celeb) really make venusaur a low risk high reward mon to use. So I am tending towards a venusaur ban.
 
It is very clear that Venusaur is the most threatening Pokemon in the current tier, and that because of a few things.
Its very decent bulk and sheer power make it able to pull off a lot of powerful and diverse sets, going from the defensive SpD set to the LO / Scarf / Z Celebrate sets, making it possible for you to use it for whichever role you'd like it to play. However, I do not think that the Celebrate set is the most threatening Venusaur's set, as I like to believe Venusaur is much better with sets like LO / Scarf or even the defensive one, since I prefer using it throughout the whole battle and not being restricted by the Normalium Z, although it remains a very strong set that makes Venusaur even more dangerous.
Another aspect that makes Venusaur unhealthy for the NU metagame is that it makes teambuilding so much harder than it should be. Since it's mandatory to have a reliable answer to it on every team, and these are very restricted: you have to use pokemons like Golbat or Steelvally to counter it defensively in a reliable manner, or use other shaky checks that won't be able to check Venusaur on the longterm, such as Incineroar, making teammaking harder, and too restricted.

I don't have a lot to add, my final thoughts are that I think the general consensus is that Venusaur is way too unhealthy for this tier because of its impact on the metagame and how it has changed teambuilding standards, which is why I lead towards ban.
 
I do understand the appeal of other sets over Z-Celebrate, as they allow a freedom to work with Venusaur a lot more consistently, but simply slapping Synthesis on the Z-Celeb set allows you a certain freedom as well, at very little cost. Its stabs still hit hard, its speed tier is still dangerous, and it allows you to scout around what your opponent would answer it with because you're ultimately putting a ridiculous pressure on them to come up with answers.

Beyond the potential for recovery, Venusaur's main annoyance for me is not so much in set diversity, but as it has been mentioned a fair amount, moves diversity. Steelvally is technically a great answer to the sweeper set, but as mentioned does very little damage back, and Parting Shot is kinda useless if your opponent carries Growth. Steelvally's lack of recovery also makes it very burdened by the Leech Seed variants, as they sap its health and it can't even stay in, again, little damage and if Venusaur spams recovery it gets the 1v1 pretty comfortably. Golbat is massively annoyed by Knock Off and Sleep Powder, both of which make it almost impossible for it to do its job reliably and gives way too much room for dangerous teammates to come in. Technically SpD Cryogonal can come in and Haze its boosts, but well:

+1 0 Atk Venusaur Power Whip vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Cryogonal: 285-336 (78.2 - 92.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

Then again, Venusaur can't run everything at once and some of those picks can be really niche, but having experienced it not mattering at all of a large part of Gen VI and seeing the same thing happening again, I don't quite think that's a problem for Venusaur. It puts almost the entire onus on the opponent to figure out what the full set is and depending on the call you make you either still have to play around a mon that is so ridiculously centralizing you need both hard checks and reliable revenge killers at almost all times, or at worst you scrambling around and it just sits there making you look stupid. Please ban.
 
Venusaur is clearly the most threatening pokemon in the tier. This pokemon has always been amazing defensively and great offensively. Now it gets Z-CELEBRATE raising all stats meaning it takes multiple pokemon to beat it. Its defense boost helping vs sneazle and I incinaroar and others. Pokemon like AV INCINAROAR can be chipped away by rocks. This pokemon also likes the new adition to diance if diance is possible to set-up on at the point and time it will. If im being completely honest I dont need to post more because in the above threats it says it all. Assuming I get recs and have time to to play 40 games (assuming im not busy) I would vote Ban
 
i dont think veun should be banned, or at least feel the urge to ban it
the main reason to ban this mon rn is because of its versatility
tbh veun had never been a problem to me in general
veun has mutiple checks, and tbh not hard to beat
ik it has no full counters and its checks depends on its set
but i feel that those checks for diffrent set are quite common and checks for all its set are pretty good
it has decent denfensive contneter play
it would be like banning lati in uu
that its checks dependes on the set

i am more towards not banning veun atm
 
Venusaur @ Normalium Z
Ability: Chlorophyll
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Celebrate
- Sludge Bomb
- Giga Drain
- Growth / filler

Venusaur is an overall fantastic Pokemon in the tier that can do a handful of things effectively without being outclassed, but the set I posted the importable to above makes it too much for the current metagame plain-and-simple. This case is nothing too out-of-the-ordinary as there simply is insufficient counterplay to Z-Celebrate Venusaur in the current metagame. I'll go through a list of what I consider to be checks/counters and I think it will be pretty clear from there.

Counters to Z-Celebrate Venusaur: Golbat, Ferroseed
Checks to Z-Celebrate Venusaur: Klinklang, Silvally-Steel, Toxicroak (sorta), Scarf Delphox, Scarf Houndoom, Togedemaru, Sandslash-Alola

The metagame response has, more or less, been spamming the shit out of Golbat, which honestly is more a testament to how broken this set is. You have a Pokemon that is mediocre beforehand suddenly seeing consistent usage with this being the only clear-cut reasoning. All of the checks are semi-reliable, but prone to getting worn down or situationally losing to Venusaur during end-game scenarios, more or less. The Fire type Scarfers have fallen out of favors due to the emergence of Incineroar, the new Rock types, and just general deadweight nature in some match-ups. All things considered, Venusaur is the stereotypical broken win-condition right now. I can go in depth as to why those lists are insufficient if anyone wishes, so feel free to respond or disagree and I will elaborate, but for now it seems to be the consensus and not in need of any explanation.

Finally, I take issue with those who argue Venusaur being broken on the merit of versatility. Unless you're using some Z Swords Dance set or some quirky lure variant that compromises general effectiveness and practically nobody uses as of rn, then odds are there is substantial overlap in counterplay to most variants of Venusaur. To top this all off, versatility isn't a cause of banworthiness unless there is some underlying factor that crosses the line, which you cannot pinpoint without looking at this set I honed in on, in my opinion. Venusaur is simply a top-tier Pokemon if you take this out of the equation and any argument discounting this I find to be more distaste than actually full of substance and acceptable reasoning.

tl;dr - Z-Celebrate sets are absurd and they make Venusaur broken due to lack of counterplay
 
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hello,

i also wanna give my 2 cents on that. I think when people start spamming mons like golbat to counter the z-brate venusuar set then u clearly know this mon has not a healthy influence on the metagame overall. the lack of reliable counters / checks clearly shows how good z-brate + growth venusuar is. there are a few mons which can reliably switchin and the amount of other sets it can also run is not that easy to scout out. this makes me even more adamant on the standpoint of BAN. i used this mon for myself and i clearly see how influential it is towards the metagame. venusaurs reliability after a boost is very very high. and if you wanna really catch golbats off guard u can fill the last slot with a super effective Hidden Power.

+1 252+ SpA Venusaur Hidden Power Rock vs. 240 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Golbat: 152-180 (43.3 - 51.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
 


Venusaur, it took awhile but it's finally getting suspect tested. Venusaurs great bulk, viarity of sets, amazing typing, great Special Attack and ability to basicly 6-0 a team that isnt prepared for it makes suspect worthy. What Earth said about that it's counters / checks are limits teambuilding which is true, so I wont repeat what is already said. Although there is one counter people always forget, I think it was Teddeh in a podcast on Kiyo's channel who said "Venusaur is the counter to Venusaur" which is true. Venusaurs best counter is itself, now before people go nuts on the fact that Z-Celebrate with Growth is able to break SpD Venusaur. While this statement might be true in some cases Realistic Waters opened my eyes in a test game, Roar spD Venusaur basicly beats any Venusaur out there. I wanted this to get out the way so people know that there is a counter to all Venusaurs out there. Now does this make Venusaur balanced? No, in my oppinion when its checks/counters limiting teambuilding (I'll take golbat as example for now, Golbat consistently checks Venusaur but means you probably have to go Semi-Stall or Balance what using this mon limits what playstyles getting used). If the only pokémon that consistently checks Venusaur and what also makes you able to use other playstyles is Venusaur itself then is in my oppinion that mon unhealthy for the tier and that's why I will say BAN.
 
I only have experience using the Z Celebrate set, and can report that late game it's nigh unstoppable. Great bulk and Giga Drain means it's hard to wear down, it hits hard enough to 2HKO anything that doesn't resist its STABs at +1, being a special attacker it doesn't care about burns and being a Poison type it can't be poisoned either. Personally I run Giga Drain, Sludge Bomb, Hidden Power Fire, and as others have said, Golbat is one of the few things that can reliably stop it (and even then you could run HP Ice / Rock to 2HKO it, at the cost of not being able to hit Steel types). Getting opportunities to set up isn't too tricky either - it forces out most of the tier's Water types, Rock types, Ground types and Fairy types such as Slowbro, Diancie, Rhydon and Mega Audino.

Late game Venusaur is virtually impossible to stop, so I say Ban
 
ppl seem to be forgetting spdef roar quilladin

Even gets free spikes...

The most problematic thing about Venusaur (i feel) is the strain it puts on teambuilding,
no more golbat-less stall, no more bulky waters not called Slowbro (which in itself makes slowbro even better probably) and like being forced to throw 1 out of like 4 select mons onto any team for it just not to get raped by a venu

Eternally told me to get reqs so I basically have to and I'm reasonably sure I'm voting ban
 
Okay. I've played around with NU a while since I've started playing again and I wanted to give my brief thoughts on Venusaur.

My avatar quite accurately describes my feelings whenever I see one.

Okay, so basically, I've used a plethora of different teams this suspect test to kind of worm my opinions around what happens when you don't completely plan for venusaur specifically as much. It kinda sucked. Basically, Steelvally was my bro in terms of handling Venusaur on the team, but oh my god I could literally do next to nothing else. I *had* to go Steelvally because of how this thing operates. I actually had to add a Golbat to manage it at all because Venusaur can still wear Steelvally down. This thing's power is through the freaking roof and it can utterly SQUASH any team that didn't think about it hard enough. It's very restricting in the team builder and it beats a good few of the upper ranks right now, especially since Gigalith and Diancie dropped with it. If that's not enough, it can run other sets to catch people off guard because they build a certain way JUST to handle the Zelebrate set. It also doesn't help that the presence of Diancie and especially Sp.Def Gigalith have gutted the scarf Fire types like Delphox, making them a more unreliable check, because hey, they can just run Gigalith AND Venusaur.

The fact that I literally *had* to run Golbat of all things, a mon constantly known for being not the greatest except at stall/balance sometimes, to find a way of handling this beast with any kind of effeciency leaves me no doubt. I would enjoy seeing Venusaur banned.
 
I am going to talk about a hypothetical venusaur-less metagame if venusaur does get the ban. Most of the responses seem to agree that venusaur should rise to NUBL. If venusaur rises to NUBL, then offensive teams will get a reprieve from its Z-celebrate set, which can be a monster to face due to its high speed and special attack combined with raised defenses. Stall will also get better because it does not have to constantly run golbat. Balance may suffer a bit since used z-celebrate venusaur heavily as an offensive and stall check wrapped into one. Sun will become much less relevant if Venusaur is banned because chlorophyll sets are no longer usable. Coupled with stout/gigalith cores, sun will probably fall back into irrelevance. In addition, diancie and bulky waters will get better because one of their worst enemies is gone. I'm probably not going to have the reqs to vote, but I will observe the suspect like I usually do and hope the metagame improves.
 
The problem with Venusaur is it only has a few hard counters and a few shaky checks. I feel, like others above have said, it really puts great constraints on team building more than anything. The strange thing is it somehow manages actually outast alot of these checks and counters too because they dont really do much to beat it directly (other than being forced to use Golbat [lol] or like Curse Rest Talk Muk or some shit lol). Basically between Giga Drain, Synthesis, Leech Seed etc it doesn't really go away throughout the entirety of the battle. Z-Celebrate amplifies this by making it even bulkier which is a pain in the ass. Dont even get me started on its unpredictability even with only a few good sets. Sleep Powder also effectively removes a pokemon from the match and nullifies alot of these checks and counters (no grass types can even absorb this due to the threat of STAB sludge bomb). Yeah it needs to go.

TL;DR Durability, Versatility and Power is what makes it hard to handle and makes it stand out from the rest. It basically picks its own checks and counters which are few and far between as it is.

EDIT:

Lol ironic, faced the old gen 4 UU standard set just as im literally typing this, with Swords Dance, EQ, Power Whip, Filler. Hnnnng. :toast::pirate:
 
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I'm going to have an unpopular opinion here, but I think Venusaur should stay....


.....Ok, I'm joking. Venusaur has GOT to go. My reasons are the same as everyone else's: crazy versatility, good bulk, good defensive typing, good offensive typing, completely dismantles popular defensive cores, no defensive counter-play, this thing is just nuts right now. The only thing that usually stops it is Golbat, and even that can be shut down with Sleep Powder and Leech Seed. This has to go. Ban the Flower Dinosaur.
 
Not much else to add other than Z Celebrate can also run Sleep Powder in the last slot to catch some of its checks, bluff another set, before setting up later and now you gotta pray you didn't sack your sleeper to something or to wake tf up. Ban seems appropriate imo.
 
Firstly, sorry for my bad english.
I played NU for this suspect test, now i see how Venusaur is so good in the tier, it´s difficult to switchin´ in Venu whithout running Silvally-Steel, a SpDef Venu, ferroseed or Mons like that if the opponent does not run hp fire or EQ in it; however if Venusaur receives support with hazards... it can be a god.
In addition there are lots of sets, it can be a huge threat running Z Celebrate o Z moves, or run Sleep Powder, bulky ones, or taking part of a Sun team, being a solid sun abuser.
In my view Venusaur should be banned
 
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I think it's time to think about Slowbro. Disclaimer: I've not been active in NU for a while, so forgive me if my metagame knowledge is off.

As far as I remember, one of the biggest reasons Slowbro was not unhealthy in NU was because it helped keep Emboar under wraps. However, with Emboar gone (I know, it's BEEN gone), It's probably time to think about Slowbro again. It seems to me that the Scald/Psychic/Toxic/Slack off set is incredibly potent right now, as it makes it difficult for grass types to switch in. This small change in the Slowbro meta aside, it does what it always has: acted as a super fat counter to many mons, while also being a reliable pivot and way to wear out the enemy team. The two biggest physical threats that seem to have taken the place of Slowbro are Medicham and Incineroar. Incineroar can run train through Slowbro after taking its Colbur away (all the easier if its a Z set). Medicham 2hkos bro with T-Punch after rocks if Jolly and does not need rocks if Ada.

I'm not going to make a lengthy post about Slowbro in the meta as I just want this to be a reminder that Slowbro being OP or restricting on teambuilding is a topic that should be revisited. Personally, and also without much experience in the current meta, I think Slowbro is not really OP, but may potentially still be overcentralizing (need more time to find out), but I remain interested in seeing how the meta would open up without it around. Perhaps because of Medi and Tiger, there is no justifiable reason to ban Slowbro, but on the other hand, it remains S tier after all this time for a reason. Perhaps it is still putting a chokehold on the development of NU as a tier. I want to hear YOUR opinion.

Btw, after my long hiatus, I decided to ask my good friend Eternally for a match in order to get a better sense of what NU is like nowadays. Eternally then proceeded to bring a stall against me in a casual game that I was using in order to learn the meta. This not only violated the rule "Don't bring stall against friends," but also provided me nothing useful in terms of learning the meta, as the stall team was clearly from SUMO (I know because I saw it back then). I find that this was a detestable display of Eternally's lack of sportsmanship and honor. I am both enraged and crushed by the treatment that I received by the man who I once respected and considered a friend. I made this post just to include this Old Man Rant about Eternally.
 
Slowbro probably should be considered for a test, though i don’t necessarily agree with “it’s been S forever; it probably is unhealthy for tier development”; we’ve seen this in literally every other tier bar like RU yet those Pokemon have stayed in their tiers because at the end of the day there exists enough offensive and defensive counterplay.

PU: Mesprit, Skuntank
UU: Scizor
OU: Landorus-T
Ubers: Primal Groudon

This isn’t to say we haven’t seen calls to action against these Pokemon; it’s simply me pointing out they’ve stayed at the top, but largely remained considered fair in every metagame, albeit dominating

tl;dr being top-tier 99% of generation =/= unhealthy
 
I wasn't making that claim. I was just trying to say that in the Emboar meta, Emboar was the only reason we didn't suspect Slowbro, and it's been gone a while now. My point about it remaining S tier is that even with Venusaur being S-tier and with Incineroar and Medicham being high tier now and being able to break through Slowbro, Slowbro remains S tier. This means that even in a meta with some of the most dominant mons being able to beat it pretty easily, it remains S, so we should reconsider why Slowbro still remains dominant across multiple metas and start to think about if it is suspect worthy. With the broken drops a while back and the dominance of Venu, there hasn't really been much time to devote to thinking about a mon that people considered suspect worthy long ago, even though its reason for remaining in the tier is long gone. As I said, I don't really consider Slowbro to be broken, but that doesn't mean we should forget about it and move on. I'm not sure as I've been gone a while, but it looks to me like there is potential that is overcentralizing in the tier. I just want to spark discussion about Slowbro and it's place in NU, as it seems to have bene largely forgotten.

edit: You also probably did not read the P.S. in my previous post, so I would strongly encourage you to do so.
 
Yui. said:
I wasn't making that claim. I was just trying to say that in the Emboar meta, Emboar was the only reason we didn't suspect Slowbro, and it's been gone a while now. My point about it remaining S tier is that even with Venusaur being S-tier and with Incineroar and Medicham being high tier now and being able to break through Slowbro, Slowbro remains S tier. This means that even in a meta with some of the most dominant mons being able to beat it pretty easily, it remains S, so we should reconsider why Slowbro still remains dominant across multiple metas and start to think about if it is suspect worthy. With the broken drops a while back and the dominance of Venu, there hasn't really been much time to devote to thinking about a mon that people considered suspect worthy long ago, even though its reason for remaining in the tier is long gone. As I said, I don't really consider Slowbro to be broken, but that doesn't mean we should forget about it and move on. I'm not sure as I've been gone a while, but it looks to me like there is potential that is overcentralizing in the tier. I just want to spark discussion about Slowbro and it's place in NU, as it seems to have bene largely forgotten.

edit: You also probably did not read the P.S. in my previous post, so I would strongly encourage you to do so.
Click to expand...
Disagree.

Pre-Boar ban we also had Rotom-Cut in the tier, Whimsi was rising, Sneasel still applied pressure (and still does), and there was more competition as a bulky Water-type given Emboar’s dominance from Pokemon such as Seismitoad. Hell, if you want to get super into old meta discussion Slowbro was in a lull awhile back post Emboar ban, so I wouldn’t consider it as this constant centralizing force.

I read the hide tag stuff. I laughed and agreed with eternally being utterally despicable and in need of demotion. Though I’m not sure the relevance of it.
 
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