np: ORAS UU Stage 3.1 - Sex on Fire [Victini Remains BL]

[Dad's Dad]

Finally got through 74 god awful games just to be able to type a few words in a thread that will be up in about a week that will have no lasting impression on my life whatsoever but those 74 games taught me something that I deep down already knew. Tini isn't broken at all LOL! My only problem with Victini is that it restricts teambuilding and that it makes teambuilding so hard. You already have to deal with some of the biggest powerhouses in the game (Don't let that UNDERused blind you) like Hydreigon, M-Beedrill, M-Pidgeot, Mamoswine, Feraligatr, Lucario, Krookodile, Reuniclus, Cobalion and more. Now to add a mon like Victini to that list that can get by ALL of its potential checks with the right coverage move, it severely limits teambuilding. It makes Balance shit basically. While I was laddering the only two types of teams I saw EVER were Stall and Hyper Offense. You either fought a really slow game or you fought against Victini/Mamoswine/Feraligatr/Aerodactyl teams. In my opinion Victini makes the meta shit.

 

[UU ALL DAY]

I think some people are confusing restricting team building with broken. People are complaining that one has to use something like Gatr or Krook to take advantage of momentum lost when fighting against Victini; however, those mons are good regardless of whether the opponent has Victini or not. It just so happens that teams are better suited for the meta because of Victini (DD/SD gatr is even more potent, etc).

MixTini is a threat, and probably the best set imo, but it is quite easy to spot. If someone is trying to double switch Victini on a Swampert, you should know. Victini basically goes Scarf (average set imo), Band (good against stall/balance), or mixed. There are other sets like TR WP etc, but those are really situational and only really shine in tournament play. If it's a mixed set, you know it's going to be carrying grass + fire coverage (energy ball + V-create), so it should come as to no surprise what moves Victini will carry.

If anything, I think Gatr and Mamo do sweeping + wall breaking much better than Victini. Mamo has even less switch ins, and one set up with Gatr, and most balanced will be dismantled.

Free Victini!

 

[dingbat]

After multiple tilts and a skillful game against hilarious ... I'm still at 2530 coil, fuck me I FINALLY GOT REQS LOL

Anyways, I've utilized two different tini sets-- one i used in BW2 when I was a nobody and the other the traditional cb set I'd like to call NUKETINI. None of which I feel like elaborating on atm since it's late at night:

Victini Sets

Victini @ Expert Belt
252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
-V Create
-Bolt Strike
-U turn
-Grass Knot

Victini @ Choice Band
252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
-V Create
-Bolt Strike
-U Turn
-Zen Headbutt (which I clicked a total of 0 times I think)

Now that I've actually used Tini... I can definitely say that it still puts a shit ton of pressure on many teams as it's not very easy to just simply switch something in like Hydreigon or Gatr and pray for the good of life that it can easily chew up whatever comes at them. Even in this meta, where there are tons and tons of revenge killers that can capably scare out Tini, as well as the fact that it truly sucks ass to switch it into hazards, I still so many easy opportunities in most battles to just send Tini in and click V Create for the easiest bops of my life. Man, it's been a long time since i've last nuked shit lol

If anyone is genuinely interested in seeing the replay, look it up since I can't link it from my phone lol

HERE IT IS: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uususpecttest-235536311

 

[GULLY]

Finally got through 74 god awful games just to be able to type a few words in a thread that will be up in about a week that will have no lasting impression on my life whatsoever but those 74 games taught me something that I deep down already knew. Tini isn't broken at all LOL! My only problem with Victini is that it restricts teambuilding and that it makes teambuilding so hard. You already have to deal with some of the biggest powerhouses in the game (Don't let that UNDERused blind you) like Hydreigon, M-Beedrill, M-Pidgeot, Mamoswine, Feraligatr, Lucario, Krookodile, Reuniclus, Cobalion and more. Now to add a mon like Victini to that list that can get by ALL of its potential checks with the right coverage move, it severely limits teambuilding. It makes Balance shit basically. While I was laddering the only two types of teams I saw EVER were Stall and Hyper Offense. You either fought a really slow game or you fought against Victini/Mamoswine/Feraligatr/Aerodactyl teams. In my opinion Victini makes the meta shit.

This, tini isn't that broke but it would have a negative impact on the meta. Its getting to the point where u wanna check all the threats that are around with Stall or use them in HO. Tini really has pushed it to another level and would be just a bad addition.

 

[Ducem]

Well, I suppose it's time to post an opinion. Better late than never. At first, not gonna lie, I was aiming to vote for banning Tini. He always gave me problems in XY UU and was plain annoying to face. But then I remembered: A) I was a typical low ladder player (my sticky web team with physical nidoking still sitting pretty somewhere) and B) the meta has changed quite a bit, so I was curious to where I would stand. Well, for one thing, Snorlax totally walls a Tini that doesn't have focus blast (which is rarer than I expected) and arcanine takes any physical hit with ease. I think Tini has always had checks, now that I'm actually somewhat knowledgeable about UU, and now we have even more since the new drops have, well, dropped down. Overhyping is common with pokes that drop down from the OU scene (let's not forget mamo) and Tini is no exception. I've heard good arguments for both sides (as well as some unsatisfactory ones...) but I think unban would probably be my choice. UU will adapt, it always has.

Still waiting for gatr suspect, though...

 

[sniperr]

after getting reqs, I can't really say victini is broken, but is very centralizing. during my whole ladder experience I've rarely seen Tini more than the people who were trying to counter it. I personally don't like the idea of Tini staying. as a result im pro ban.

 

[Wish9]

I've been both using and facing Victini recently and it's not as hard to handle as people think it is. Back when it was still allowed in UU, there was not much that could handle it's Mixed and Banded Sets. With the recent drops and much more versatile metagame however, Victini is much easier to keep at bay. Due to the increased usage in Dark Types/Pursuit users such as Krookodile, Victini can't just hit-and-run as much as it would like to, especially since while V-create is one of its greatest assets, it also makes up Victini's biggest weakness: Getting revenged killed more easily. This is due to susceptibility to hazards, the stat drops from V-create, and weakness to Dark. The same walls from before such Rotom-Heat and Suicune are also problematic. Victini is really good overall, but with the recent developments in UU I don't think its broken and it can honestly be reallowed in UU again.

 

[Patrick1088]

Im about 100 pts shy of getting Reqs and just wanted to post a few thoughts based on my experiences:

1. If Tini had one defined set, then i think it wouldbease prediction on the opponents side (think Entei). But, since this is not the case, i think every tini set has a reliable check. Snorlax is probably the closest thing to checking multiple sets, swampy checks physical tini OK (along with Alo, Suicune) but they are beat by mixed sets.
2. There is no one mon that can handle ALL of tinis sets, barring Snorlax.So, tbis wouod require having multiple checks, whether offensive (hydre, m-absol, doublade) or defensive (snorlax, swampy, suicune, m-amphy).
3. This leads me to my biggest question; IS HAVING MULTIPLE CHECKS UNHEALTHY?

Based on thatvlast question, these mons have other uses outside of just checking tini (Hydre/Doub core is very strong and effective), so it doesnt restrict team building as muchbas juzt keeping it in the back of my mind.

While laddering, i found Gatr, Mence and M-Pidgeot to be more threatening and restrictive of team.building. These 3 alone are some of the biggest changes in UU OrAs tbat were relevant (yeah i know tyrantrum is more viable now, but it lets be honest it wasnt game changing like Gatr or Serp). I think that if one is prepared for the 3 threats i just mentioned, then Victini sbouldnt be as difficult to check since you already should have some wall that can phaze or check Gatr or Mence.

I started out Pro Ban, but now im questioning it. Thr lack of actual victini on the ladder didnt help too much as well...

 

[Brendannn]

ok well I probably won't be able to get reqs due to final exams coming up next week. however i did just want to give my input on the tini suspect. after playing on the ladder and against other UUers honestly i hadn't ever had trouble with victini. in fact I think it's kind of worse in this metagame then it was back in XY(tho i wasn't into UU as much back then). if it's not as good in ORAS, then it can be voted back, right? well after some thought its like, yeah victini's not as good in the current meta as it's forced to run blah yeah you've heard this point a lot.

i feel as tho tini doesn't actually help out the metagame at all. it doesn't make it unhealthy nor healthy and honestly i don't think the metagame would change much at all if it was brought back into official UU play. if you think about it, the scary thing about the last time it was in the tier was catching that band v-create, but now that it's pretty much forced to run life orb/ebelt/sub/whatever non choice it's just not that scary imo. overall just some thoughts but i'd probably vote ban on tini, not because it's broken, but because i don't see it offering anything to ORAS UU.

 

[Shiba]

Alright well I just got reqs, and although I didn't see Tini as much as I expected, I still think its power is too much for the tier. When I did see it on ladder, this thing was almost impossible to switch in to, with access to a very strong STAB V-Create for its physical set, and also some using strong special attacking sets. With threats such as Gatr, Reuniclus, Mega Pidg, Mega Beedrill already in the tier, it's almost impossible to build teams without it being weak to at least one threat in the tier. I didn't really change my stance on Victini throughout the suspect test and will certainly vote ban on this centralizing monster.

 

[Uniterflash]

I just hit 2k Coil and haven't really see much tini, but I have a few opinions on it. I noticed tini doesn't have a ton of defensive checks/counters but it can be checked by a lot of scarfers like krook or really fast shit like Aero for example carrying a SE move .Regardless I still believe tini puts a lot of strain on building that's not super healthy for UU and I hate having to pack checks for this guy on top of all the other threats. So unless I see a realllllly compelling arguement for tini to stay, I think I'm most definitely saying BAN.

 

[Malin]

just got my reqs, so I'll share some of my thoughts about tini

as almost everyone else, i didnt see too much tini over the ladder, which could be reasonable, as saying your opponents will most likely be prepared to it. but that's not entirely true. the only real playstyle that have to overprepare for Victini is balance. even stall will, by nature, carry at least 2 checks for Victini. but if a balance team don't carry, at least, a hard and a soft check to Victini, trying to take in account its different sets, your team will most likely to fall apart by team preview. the problem is that balance can't really carry that much mons to deal with Victini without being weak for some other threats in the UU meta. balance will suffer a lot if Victini stays. just take a look at the Suspect Ladder. it's not "because it's a suspect" that most teams that we see and that are sucessful are Offense teams, it's because the most easy way to deal with Victini is pressuring the opponent.

dont get me wrong, i played my entire suspect with a bulky offense team, and while it was pretty much fun, I feel bad as my favorite playstyle - balance - will suffer with Victini staying. i will play a few more games over ladder and tours, testing some balance teams, but for now I'm voting keep BL.

 

[Geopolitics]

just took me 83 games to get reqs, and i think i've finally formed an opinions

victini is a tough suspect, because on paper, its nearly impossible to wall. in practice, it takes a lot of scouting and risky switches in order to figure out. i don't think that victini is overwhelmingly broken (such as mega pinsir was lmao) but i think that victini has a negative impact on the tier. i could make some long, detailed post resummarizing the points made by others, causing you to just skim it and be like "oh ok he justified it" but nah

go back to bl

 

[Wanka]

As far as victini goes, if an argument is "if you are not bringing a hard check and a soft check then victini will run rampant on your team." From what I've seen on the ladder, if your opponent is not bringing a hard check and a soft check then that person is most likely running offense. As some main balance mons like snorlax, salamence, cresselia, mega amph all act as those hard and soft checks. So if you are not seeing them then it is most likely an offensive oriented or heavy offense build.

That being said, offensively checking victini is a very good way of dealing with it from my experiences as I've been strictly using heavy offense on the ladder. With Offensive builds having a good ability to sustain rocks, having a common trapper in aero, and having reliable priority, victini can most certainly be dealt with as the most victini has really ever gotten on me is one kill unless I screw up. Not to mention there are little to none opportunities for victini to switch in safely against offense forcing you to sack something to get it in.

So what im getting out of this is either people are either bringing balance cores that consist of mons like snorlax, mence, mega amph, suicune, arcanine, or cresselia which can all effectively deal with victini if paired together correctly, OR people are not bringing hard checks to victini which means those teams auto lose right? No. Like I said, the teams that wont bring those victini checks above are most likely offensive builds. these builds give victini almost zero opportunities to get in safely unless it is coming in after a sack. As said before with offense having a great ability to sustain rocks and have a common trapper via mons like aero who is a staple on offense and reliable priority really limit tini's damage versus offensive builds that are supposed to "fall apart."

Once again excuse my shit grammar, I'm unable to edit anything properly on my desktop without screwing up the whole post.

 

[420LegitShucks]

It'll end on June the 4th

Thanks. I can't wait to see the results. I hope Tini gets unbanned...

 

[Natural Talent]

After getting reqs I feel as if i have earned to post my thoughts.

I think that Victini is pretty overwhelming for the tier. It's strong as fuck, great coverage, and has a spammable and strong move called V Create. slow teams can really be threatened by it and if they run checks they will be weak to something else (most likely Feraligatr from my experience). It will have little to no switch ins Vs offense, and balance is no better.

Victini is a great pokemon, but in this meta i'd say it's a bit TOO good.

Not really much to say about a more or less broken mon , or a mon that's just unhealthy for the meta.

 

[Lapras!]

I do not think tini is broken anymore. I got reqs just by using full stall and did fine. Victini on its own is definitely manageable but I will still be voting ban. Why? Because I do not find this tier fun. Having to prepare for Mamo, Hera, bird, gatr, and mence put a lot of limitations on defensive and balance teams already and victini's presence just pushes things over the line. There is no room for creativity and innovation in stall, except to cteam the above mentioned threats. Maybe in a stallier meta I could tolerate tini but right now offence is just getting another buff it doesn't need. Ban pls

 

[silenced]

Although I have my doubts about getting reqs, I am thinking Victini should remain in BL

I am testing victini on the (lower) ladder, and while the quality of games does not bear posting, I think the major thing I've found about victini is that it has the ability to adapt to whatever checks you try to throw at it.

For instance, I've made the insane choice to NOT use V-create and I have to say that I'm actually really glad I ditched that move. Using a predominant special based victini, with bolt-strike over t-bolt (because I don't trust thunder's accuracy even after the boost to accuracy), I've found it great because a majority of the offensive checks either

1. Really need victini to lose a speed stage from v-create to ensure they force it out
2. need rocks up and the defense drops not to get boned by the victini player outpredicting the pursuit. (this especially applies to M-Aero and CS Krookodile)
3. The 20% burn chance from blue flare is also irritating for a lot of mons to want to switch into, even if it isn't quite as bad as scald.

The bulk of victini is pretty solid to write home about. Being able to live scalds from bulky water's with a naive nature while you 2-3HKO them upon them switching in is just cruel.

Special tini getting walled by blissey sucks, but the thing is that your checks to either set usually end up being very passive (and thus, exploitable by other members of your team), outside of snorlax/M-amph. Offensive checks, as I've said, are so dependent on V-create being fired off that they simply falter after slight prior damage if they can't outrun it.

Hoping it stays banned for now. I do get checks exist, but prediction goes both ways, and I would be immensely pissed off if I had to jam lax/cresselia on every team I make a la gen V. I just don't want a repeat of the chandelure suspect where lax+ 1 or 2 mons was considered good enough for something to stay, especially when victini very much has the tools to bypass its checks without too much compromise to its overall effectiveness.

Edit: Might as well include the set I'm using, in case people want to try it out, or more likely, edit it to fit their teams needs

Victini @ Charcoal
Naive
4 Atk, 252 SpA, 252 Spe
-Blue Flare
-Bolt Strike
-Grass Knot
-Dazzling Gleam

I've nailed quite a few hydreigon with dazzling gleam already, which is immensely satisfying, though my team could benefit from glaciate's speed drop. Also good for dealing decent damage to mega-amph and every other dragon about. Otherwise the movepool is reasonably standard other than the lack of V-create.

 

[Uniterflash]

Although I have my doubts about getting reqs, I am thinking Victini should remain in BL

I am testing victini on the (lower) ladder, and while the quality of games does not bear posting, I think the major thing I've found about victini is that it has the ability to adapt to whatever checks you try to throw at it.

For instance, I've made the insane choice to NOT use V-create and I have to say that I'm actually really glad I ditched that move. Using a predominant special based victini, with bolt-strike over t-bolt (because I don't trust thunder's accuracy even after the boost to accuracy), I've found it great because a majority of the offensive checks either

1. Really need victini to lose a speed stage from v-create to ensure they force it out
2. need rocks up and the defense drops not to get boned by the victini player outpredicting the pursuit. (this especially applies to M-Aero and CS Krookodile)
3. The 20% burn chance from blue flare is also irritating for a lot of mons to want to switch into, even if it isn't quite as bad as scald.

The bulk of victini is pretty solid to write home about. Being able to live scalds from bulky water's with a naive nature while you 2-3HKO them upon them switching in is just cruel.

Special tini getting walled by blissey sucks, but the thing is that your checks to either set usually end up being very passive (and thus, exploitable by other members of your team), outside of snorlax/M-amph. Offensive checks, as I've said, are so dependent on V-create being fired off that they simply falter after slight prior damage if they can't outrun it.

Hoping it stays banned for now. I do get checks exist, but prediction goes both ways, and I would be immensely pissed off if I had to jam lax/cresselia on every team I make a la gen V. I just don't want a repeat of the chandelure suspect where lax+ 1 or 2 mons was considered good enough for something to stay, especially when victini very much has the tools to bypass its checks without too much compromise to its overall effectiveness.

Edit: Might as well include the set I'm using, in case people want to try it out, or more likely, edit it to fit their teams needs

Victini @ Charcoal
Naive
4 Atk, 252 SpA, 252 Spe
-Blue Flare
-Bolt Strike
-Grass Knot
-Dazzling Gleam

I've nailed quite a few hydreigon with dazzling gleam already, which is immensely satisfying, though my team could benefit from glaciate's speed drop. Also good for dealing decent damage to mega-amph and every other dragon about. Otherwise the movepool is reasonably standard other than the lack of V-create.

just wondering, why did you opt to not use v-create :o ?

 

[LeoLancaster]

just wondering, why did you opt to not use v-create :o ?

because a majority of the offensive checks either

1. Really need victini to lose a speed stage from v-create to ensure they force it out
2. need rocks up and the defense drops not to get boned by the victini player outpredicting the pursuit. (this especially applies to M-Aero and CS Krookodile)
3. The 20% burn chance from blue flare is also irritating for a lot of mons to want to switch into, even if it isn't quite as bad as scald.

 

[Yugi]

Imma run flashfire 252 HP 252 Def Bold Nature Houndoom To counter this thing,with 4 EVs in SPdef for taking glaciate better and Dgleam.

 

[Schpoonman]

The threat of V-create is enough to make people react in a certain way. I've been sitting here like 20 minutes trying to think of another Pokemon like that but I think Victini's really the only one. To be fair, he can pull that off specifically because he has a fantastic movepool besides V-create.

 

[Uniterflash]

Im stupid, skimmed the post :p. Thanks man.

 

[TheTraininator]

Imma run flashfire 252 HP 252 Def Bold Nature Houndoom To counter this thing,with 4 EVs in SPdef for taking glaciate better and Dgleam.

Focus Blast, bitch.

 

[Darvin]

Focus Blast, bitch.

Forgot a niche move like focus blast:

252 Atk Choice Band Victini Bolt Strike vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Houndoom: 192-226 (54.3 - 64%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Victini U-turn vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Houndoom: 103-122 (29.1 - 34.5%) -- 6.2% chance to 3HKO

180 Atk Victini Bolt Strike vs. 248 HP / 252 Def Houndoom: 132-156 (37.3 - 44.1%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

That physically defensive Houndoom doesn't even check the bog standard band set very well. With Rocks up, any Victini set with modest Atk investment carrying Bolt Strike can 2HKO. If you want a physically defensive fire-type, use Arcanine. That thing can take any physical move Victini throws at it, and actually checks other threats too. Just double-switch or use morning sun if you see life orb damage to scout for other moves.