Metagame NP: Stage 1 - Let It Snow, Let It Snow, Let It Snow (Florges Ban Post #47)

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Would the tier ever consider suspecting Goodra back into the tier? The reason I ask is that we now have two fairy types, one (Florges) much better than the other. At the time of Goodra's dominance, I believe there were no fairies in the tier, aside from Tera. I wonder if the meta is at a point that would allow Goodra to return as a staple without being too broken. Maybe it could also help stabilize the incoming Barraskewda and inevitable rain teams? Although I know you can't trust rain abusers to stay in the tier as rain in the higher tiers seems to always be changing. It could become a staple on manual rain teams or as a counter to rain with Hydration and access to Thunder. I understand we just lost Copperajah, which served to check Goodra in the past. Curious to see the input from others much more talented than me. Does Goodra's access to Sludge Bomb and Acid Spray completely nullify my suggestion? I sincerely appreciate any feedback!
 

Lucario

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Would the tier ever consider suspecting Goodra back into the tier? The reason I ask is that we now have two fairy types, one (Florges) much better than the other. At the time of Goodra's dominance, I believe there were no fairies in the tier, aside from Tera. I wonder if the meta is at a point that would allow Goodra to return as a staple without being too broken. Maybe it could also help stabilize the incoming Barraskewda and inevitable rain teams? Although I know you can't trust rain abusers to stay in the tier as rain in the higher tiers seems to always be changing. It could become a staple on manual rain teams or as a counter to rain with Hydration and access to Thunder. I understand we just lost Copperajah, which served to check Goodra in the past. Curious to see the input from others much more talented than me. Does Goodra's access to Sludge Bomb and Acid Spray completely nullify my suggestion? I sincerely appreciate any feedback!
I can't speak on the matter of whether there is a suspect, ban, or unban as I am not council, but I can say with certainty that Goodra will not be coming back for a while. We did gain a Goodra check in Florges, but we lost one in Copperajah (could even say Frosmoth too). While the Rain archetype is really strong right now, it would just be a case of broken checking broken, which can also be said about keeping Florges around. Re-adding Goodra back into NU wouldn't solve any issues we are currently facing.
 
Would the tier ever consider suspecting Goodra back into the tier? The reason I ask is that we now have two fairy types, one (Florges) much better than the other. At the time of Goodra's dominance, I believe there were no fairies in the tier, aside from Tera. I wonder if the meta is at a point that would allow Goodra to return as a staple without being too broken. Maybe it could also help stabilize the incoming Barraskewda and inevitable rain teams? Although I know you can't trust rain abusers to stay in the tier as rain in the higher tiers seems to always be changing. It could become a staple on manual rain teams or as a counter to rain with Hydration and access to Thunder. I understand we just lost Copperajah, which served to check Goodra in the past. Curious to see the input from others much more talented than me. Does Goodra's access to Sludge Bomb and Acid Spray completely nullify my suggestion? I sincerely appreciate any feedback!
Would like to point out goodra simply dies from full to tera cc from barraskewda and even without tera it does >75% depending on investment. Would do nothing to stop the rain spam
 
Would like to point out goodra simply dies from full to tera cc from barraskewda and even without tera it does >75% depending on investment. Would do nothing to stop the rain spam
Goodra would probably just make it worse. Imagine a Goodra that can't be statused and can freely heal itself back up to full health. Hydration abuse would absolutely be infuriating to fight against.
 
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EonX

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I know a lot of people probably have their eyes on Barraskewda, and for good reason, but I got my eyes on something else... something that's been in the tier from the start and has just silently (that even possible? I guess it fits the theme of it) been a very potent threat that just got even better imo: Zoroark. In particular, I'm talking about Nasty Plot and Choice Specs sets as we lost the only Steel around that actually made it want to use Flamethrower. Because Copperajah left as Florges dropped, Zoroark has the option to run Focus Blast to absolutely wipe out Umbreon or Psychic to OHKO Muk at +2 while relying on its Dark STAB to push through the far less bulky Perrserker and Magneton. Now, obviously, the issue is what it's always been for NP Zoroark; how do you set up with such a fragile Pokemon? The answer is Illusion. It's shaky for sure, but at +2, Zoroark is heavily favored to OHKO Florges and Muk after Stealth Rock while pretty much nothing else is taking a hit from it. Specs is still probably better and even though it has to predict a little, Florges takes over 50% from Sludge Bomb with Stealth Rock damage included (47% minimum) while Umbreon takes over 50% from Focus Blast as well. But what about Muk? Tera Dark Specs Dark Pulse does north of 40%, meaning it's only switching in once before suffering a clean 2HKO next switch in.

Zoroark @ Life Orb
Ability: Illusion
Tera Type: Dark
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Dark Pulse
- Sludge Bomb
- Focus Blast / Psychic
- Nasty Plot


Zoroark @ Choice Specs
Ability: Illusion
Tera Type: Dark
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Dark Pulse
- Focus Blast
- Sludge Bomb
- U-turn


FLORGES CALCS:

252 SpA Choice Specs Zoroark Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 24+ SpD Florges: 170-202 (47.2 - 56.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Zoroark Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 24+ SpD Florges: 296-351 (82.2 - 97.5%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

MUK CALCS:

+2 252 SpA Life Orb Zoroark Psychic vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Muk: 348-411 (84.2 - 99.5%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Choice Specs Zoroark Psychic vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Muk: 202-238 (48.9 - 57.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

UMBREON CALCS:

+2 252 SpA Life Orb Zoroark Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Umbreon: 385-455 (97.7 - 115.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock - 70% of the time, it kills every time.

252 SpA Choice Specs Tera Dark Zoroark Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Umbreon: 222-262 (56.3 - 66.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Considering these are the best special walls in the tier sans Chansey, which is still 2HKOed by +2 Focus Blast, your best bet is to actually out-offense Zoroark. However, the problem here is that absolutely no faster Pokemon can actually safely switch into Zoro before it does something; be it slam something with a Choice Specs move, set up a Nasty Plot to rip apart a special tank, or whip out its solid physical sets to ruin something. For those wondering, the Florges EV spread is what I'm guessing will be the baseline spread for CM / mixed defensive Florges before it gets more optimized for the tier.
 

Togkey

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Barraskewda has been unanimously quickbanned via council vote for NeverUsed, with 8 members voting and one abstaining.
tagging Kris and Marty to implement, thank you in advance.

Barraskewda needs little explanation for its ban; it's too fast, it's too strong, and it's coverage is too good. Separating it from other offensive Water-types like Basculin, Bruxish, and Floatzel, Barraskewda is able to blow past NU's traditional Water resists like Vaporeon and Qwilfish with a respective Tera Close Combat or Psychic Fangs, while having an attack and speed stat that better than all of the aforementioned Water-types. Crunch offered additional coverage for the likes of Rotom and Drifblim, and Aqua Jet could easily pick off weakened Choice Scarf users like Passimian and Zoroark. Although a Tera Fairy Vaporeon or a specific Tera on physical walls like Sandaconda, Appletun, or Drifblim could somewhat mitigate Barraskewda's offensive prowess, this was found to be too profound of an effect on the metagame and very warping in the teambuilder. Beyond Barraskewda as an isolated threat, it could work in tandem with other Swift Swim users like Floatzel, Golduck, and Qwilfish to overwhelm the very few reliable Water resists available in the tier on dedicated Rain teams.
 

poh

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Hello there!


I already shared some thoughts about Florges in the nu discord but wanted to post them again here hoping to get more people aboard hehe. If i understood it correctly there's likely gonna be a Florges suspect test so here's why i think it should leave the tier. Just from stats and moves alone you can tell this mon is rly good; fairy typing with little steel types in the tier, riskfree move in moonblast with 112 spatk so uninvested you're still hitting for good damage (vileplume vibes), the gargantuan spdef stat and the passable physical bulk. It's also kinda fast for being this bulky heavy hitter making it tougher to confront with something like a sandaconda or perrserker. So it has a lot going for it, but what makes this mon too good. The 2 main offensive sets right now are specs and cm. Specs hits hard as fuck and is 1 prediction away (psychic the muk) to break through teams. Moreover you can trick your specs away making defensive answers even more of a liability. The main negatives of this set is the no recovery and bad physical bulk. Now, cm sets are a whole other beast. I've seen cm mono moonblast with wish, cm stored power/psychic, cm draining kiss ALL work with success. Cm variants make good use of its bulk and when going max hp bold you're already quite the pink blob. Unfortunately, Florges can run tera poison to set up on or surprise poison types, or tera steel and water to easy the matchup vs a hazing muk or vap. Me and z3ll1 fucking gentleman agreed to not bring cm florges during our swiss series cause its so fucking dumb LOL. This thing reminds me of ss plume and sm comfey, so that should tell the oldheads enough..

The tier has some counterplay. Florges hates tspikes but we have quite a few good grounded poisons so that issue is solvable. Muk does a good job at checking Florges but has to watch out for specs psychic and loses in the long run to cm terapoison. Perrserker can take a hit but also loses to tera water. The best way to way to beat Florges is to force it out with a strong physical attacker and/or to force it to tera early and go from there. Which is doable but Florges has good longevity and often outlasts those options. Thanks for coming to my ted talk.
 

Togkey

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Was one of the only people to vote for an immediate quickban on Florges, and I wanted to explain why because I was initially very anti-ban due to the unique aspects Florges brought to the tier. What changed my mind was both using and playing against a set that I initially brushed off when first advocated to me by zS, being Choice Specs. Tera Moonblast 3HKO’s Assault Vest Perrserker quite easily, 2HKO's 16+ Vaporeon, and KO’s Muk if hit by a Psychic prior in the game. These are decidedly the best checks to Florges available in the tier. The sheer BP brought by a special attacker while having decent speed (faster than Sandaconda and most other walls) and good bulk even when uninvested sets Florges apart from breakers like Bruxish, held back by its contact moves and poor bulk, or Pyroar, with a poor typing and again poor bulk. Florges feels very similar to Goodra in this aspect, but Goodra at least had to click the right coverage move to make progress and its main STAB option had a drawback, while Moonblast is infamously overtuned and lacks any sort of drawback. I do think Calm Mind sets are rather manageable comparatively; it's quite easy to identify its Tera type based on its set, and set based on its Tera type through scouting, but Choice Specs Florges makes scouting impossible and almost always guarantees a KO whenever it hits the field. Despite this, the tier desperately appreciates a good bulky Fairy-type and I'm open to leaving Florges around to allow for more meta development to see if it becomes more manageable, but I've built and played a lot since it dropped at the beginning of the month and have not found its presence any more tolerable.
 
Was one of the only people to vote for an immediate quickban on Florges, and I wanted to explain why because I was initially very anti-ban due to the unique aspects Florges brought to the tier. What changed my mind was both using and playing against a set that I initially brushed off when first advocated to me by zS, being Choice Specs. Tera Moonblast 3HKO’s Assault Vest Perrserker quite easily, 2HKO's 16+ Vaporeon, and KO’s Muk if hit by a Psychic prior in the game. These are decidedly the best checks to Florges available in the tier. The sheer BP brought by a special attacker while having decent speed (faster than Sandaconda and most other walls) and good bulk even when uninvested sets Florges apart from breakers like Bruxish, held back by its contact moves and poor bulk, or Pyroar, with a poor typing and again poor bulk. Florges feels very similar to Goodra in this aspect, but Goodra at least had to click the right coverage move to make progress and its main STAB option had a drawback, while Moonblast is infamously overtuned and lacks any sort of drawback. I do think Calm Mind sets are rather manageable comparatively; it's quite easy to identify its Tera type based on its set, and set based on its Tera type through scouting, but Choice Specs Florges makes scouting impossible and almost always guarantees a KO whenever it hits the field. Despite this, the tier desperately appreciates a good bulky Fairy-type and I'm open to leaving Florges around to allow for more meta development to see if it becomes more manageable, but I've built and played a lot since it dropped at the beginning of the month and have not found its presence any more tolerable.
This comment summarises my thoughts too: I wouldn't underestimate the CM sets though, because scouting to identify their Tera-type is not so risk-free and you are still susceptible to the usual 50-50 tera mind games.

Regarding "having a good fairy type mon", my judgement is pretty heavy-handed: if everybody uses specs or CM sets, the possibility of a "good defensive fairy" would be just a cute idea, only valid on paper but not in practice, so it shouldn't be taken into account.

And anyway, if a set is broken, it should have the prerogative.
People had to give up on Defog Oricorio-Pom-Pom :oricorio-pom-pom: (which actually wasn't so uncommon, unlike the ethereal "defensive Florges" :florges:), because the Quiver Dance set was too much: I don't see any reason to act differently then.
 

EonX

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Was one of the only people to vote for an immediate quickban on Florges, and I wanted to explain why because I was initially very anti-ban due to the unique aspects Florges brought to the tier. What changed my mind was both using and playing against a set that I initially brushed off when first advocated to me by zS, being Choice Specs. Tera Moonblast 3HKO’s Assault Vest Perrserker quite easily, 2HKO's 16+ Vaporeon, and KO’s Muk if hit by a Psychic prior in the game. These are decidedly the best checks to Florges available in the tier. The sheer BP brought by a special attacker while having decent speed (faster than Sandaconda and most other walls) and good bulk even when uninvested sets Florges apart from breakers like Bruxish, held back by its contact moves and poor bulk, or Pyroar, with a poor typing and again poor bulk. Florges feels very similar to Goodra in this aspect, but Goodra at least had to click the right coverage move to make progress and its main STAB option had a drawback, while Moonblast is infamously overtuned and lacks any sort of drawback. I do think Calm Mind sets are rather manageable comparatively; it's quite easy to identify its Tera type based on its set, and set based on its Tera type through scouting, but Choice Specs Florges makes scouting impossible and almost always guarantees a KO whenever it hits the field. Despite this, the tier desperately appreciates a good bulky Fairy-type and I'm open to leaving Florges around to allow for more meta development to see if it becomes more manageable, but I've built and played a lot since it dropped at the beginning of the month and have not found its presence any more tolerable.
I'm kind of inclined to agree with this. While Calm Mind should under no circumstances be underestimated because of the utility it provides outside of its late-game sweeping potential, Choice Specs is just incredibly dumb. Its painfully average physical bulk is offset by incredible resistances to Dark and Fighting. Its raw special bulk means you're almost never OHKOing with a special attacker, so it can trade hits against them and probably kill them. Tera Fairy Moonblast is probably the most spammable move in the entire game because it has no immunities, 100% accuracy, high base power, and a 30% chance to make you omega unkillable on the special side. However, none of that really drives home the issue of it more than its Speed tier. Base 75 is ahead of everything considered slow and below everything considered fast. What does that mean? Well, remember that crazy base 112 Special Attack stat that is getting boosted by Choice Specs? That's not a Timid base 112 Special Attack stat; that's a Modest base 112 Special Attack because it misses out on nothing in terms of Speed. I guess you do miss out on Jolly Honchkrow and Timid Magneton, but these two want to run neutral Speed natures too for the extra power. Do you really want to run +Speed natures on them for the CHANCE of outspeeding Specs Florges? Because you can simply run Timid on Florges to make this a non-issue if you really want to and still be really freaking strong. Oh yeah, and there's also the fact that Specs Florges doesn't really need anything outside of Moonblast + Psychic because the Steels can't handle Tera Fairy Moonblast in the long term. What does that mean? Trick and Calm Mind. Chansey isn't so problematic when it's Tricked and you still have a way to boost your Special Attack post-Trick. I mean, you could run Giga Drain, but you don't need it. What is it hitting that Moonblast isn't already deleting? Nothing, cool. Oh yeah, I guess you could also Draining Kiss with Tera Fairy to make yourself even harder to kill. Seriously, why does this have options outside of Moonblast + Psychic when it doesn't need them?
 

Sawkasm

formerly z3ll1
Hello there!


I already shared some thoughts about Florges in the nu discord but wanted to post them again here hoping to get more people aboard hehe. If i understood it correctly there's likely gonna be a Florges suspect test so here's why i think it should leave the tier. Just from stats and moves alone you can tell this mon is rly good; fairy typing with little steel types in the tier, riskfree move in moonblast with 112 spatk so uninvested you're still hitting for good damage (vileplume vibes), the gargantuan spdef stat and the passable physical bulk. It's also kinda fast for being this bulky heavy hitter making it tougher to confront with something like a sandaconda or perrserker. So it has a lot going for it, but what makes this mon too good. The 2 main offensive sets right now are specs and cm. Specs hits hard as fuck and is 1 prediction away (psychic the muk) to break through teams. Moreover you can trick your specs away making defensive answers even more of a liability. The main negatives of this set is the no recovery and bad physical bulk. Now, cm sets are a whole other beast. I've seen cm mono moonblast with wish, cm stored power/psychic, cm draining kiss ALL work with success. Cm variants make good use of its bulk and when going max hp bold you're already quite the pink blob. Unfortunately, Florges can run tera poison to set up on or surprise poison types, or tera steel and water to easy the matchup vs a hazing muk or vap. Me and z3ll1 fucking gentleman agreed to not bring cm florges during our swiss series cause its so fucking dumb LOL. This thing reminds me of ss plume and sm comfey, so that should tell the oldheads enough..

The tier has some counterplay. Florges hates tspikes but we have quite a few good grounded poisons so that issue is solvable. Muk does a good job at checking Florges but has to watch out for specs psychic and loses in the long run to cm terapoison. Perrserker can take a hit but also loses to tera water. The best way to way to beat Florges is to force it out with a strong physical attacker and/or to force it to tera early and go from there. Which is doable but Florges has good longevity and often outlasts those options. Thanks for coming to my ted talk.
Didn’t you love our 80 turn staring contest? At least the end was very comedic when both florges got 3 crits in 2 turns lmao
 
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Rabia

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I will make a post about the survey mons yippee

:sv/florges:
I find Florges to be the most suspect worthy Pokemon in the format. NU really isn't built to handle strong Fairy-types at the moment, and while Florges is definitely not unbeatable, it's a Pokemon that forces really linear lines. Choice Specs sets are super strong, and much like every other nuclear wallbreaker, you generally need to get every switch correct to not lose a guy every time Florges switches in. Unlike similar Pokemon like Clawitzer, though, Florges's access to Trick makes this harder. Meanwhile defensive Calm Mind sets are a late-game wincon the likes of which we haven't seen since... Cresselia last generation?

I still find Florges manageable enough to not have quickbanned it. I think with how dominant balance builds are and how the common defensive cores do give you ample room around Florges, it's not some unbeatable threat that some people have made it out to be. However, I do agree that the combination of sets that it has and the ease with which Choice Specs can shred through teams to be problematic enough to warrant suspect testing at a minimum.

:sv/eelektross:
I also find Eelektross to be a questionable presence in the tier. Coil sets simply exert too much pressure for teams to consistently handle without using their Tera immediately to prevent Eelektross from accruing a ton of boosts. The problem of course is this means you used your Tera just to stop a Pokemon from setting up a single time! Eelektross can come back in later and just proceed to try again! Naturally, this doesn't even touch on Eelektross using its own Tera or the opportunity cost that comes with having to Tera so early on just to stop a Pokemon from setting up---not even beating the Pokemon, mind you. Assault Vest sets are pretty whatever, really nice glue to have around frankly, but Coil is where I think Eelektross shines most, especially with how easy it is to set up.

:zoroark::bruxish::medicham:
These last three I haven't struggled with too much, although Bruxish is probably the most concerning of them. Realistically it has no good checks because of Psychic Fangs + Wave Crash, but thankfully it's somewhat easy to revenge kill and not THAT fast. Zoroark I've found to just be overrated in general and not that effective of a wallbreaker, and Medicham is... Medicham. I don't find it any more potent than Passimian, Toxicroak, or Paldean Tauros. Definitely willing to keep an open mind in the future on these guys, though.
 

Pokeslice

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:sv/florges:
Meanwhile defensive Calm Mind sets are a late-game wincon the likes of which we haven't seen since... Cresselia last generation?
Gonna have to echo Rabia on this one, and not just because I hated Cress. Cm sets are obnoxious to deal with, especially in conjunction with Tera Ground that can blast past checks like AV Perr and Muk. I've yet to try offensive LO CM sets, although that seems like another element that can be thrown into the mix to keep someone guessing between offensive and defensive CM sets (I'll get to it after vacation I swear!). Tera Fairy Specs Moonblast is also the freest move to click currently in the metagame from my experience, and with Florges's solid speed tier and immense bulk, it has multiple opportunities to hit the field. Between these two sets, I find the mon extremely difficult to handle both in game and in the builder.

:sv/bruxish:

I think Bruxish is definitely the second on my list of suspect mons. CB is absolute nuke with perfect coverage, SD can abuse one turn of set up or forcing something out to easily sweep, and Scarf is a great cleaner that can surprise a lot of offensive counterplay such as Pass. I also think there's a lot of room to mess with different sets and Tera's to beat "checks", such as that really cool Sub SD Poison Fang set that sat on my Vap in one of my Swiss games. Shoutout that guy.

:sv/eelektross:

Eel is such a weird mon because, on the one hand, AV sets are amazing glue that can be throw on to anything, but on the other hand, Coil Eel can singlehandedly flip games and is sometimes impossible to deal with. The lack of weaknesses and immunity to T Spikes give it pretty ample opportunity to set up, especially in conjunction with Tera to add an immunity to status (ie. Tera Steel for Toxic) or a resistance to a revenge killer. D Tail is another powerful tech that Eel slots, taking advantage of the many switches and instant counterplay needed to stop Coil Eel from steamrolling. Is it banworthy? I'm honestly not sure, but I definitely think it deserves a suspect at some point.


:sv/zoroark: :sv/Medicham:

Personally I see these two as a step below, with Zoro clearly better than Medi. Maybe I'm just bad, but I think Zoro is another mon that deserves a suspect down the line. This is probably the first meta where its combo of speed and power actually gives it a real role and Illusion shenanigans are at its most potent. A core of Fighter + Specs Zoro can put you heavily on the back foot after one wrong play that KO's your Drifblim or Sandaconda and opens you up to Pass, Tauros, Croak, etc. Florges being in the tier is an obvious counter, but when it inevitably gets kicked from NU, I think Zoro will once again be a top tier threat. Scarf with Tera to erase Pass t1 is also a really fun. As for Medi, I just don't get the hype nowadays. I think the tier has adapted quite well to it and I don't see why it would need a suspect.
 
Was one of the only people to vote for an immediate quickban on Florges, and I wanted to explain why because I was initially very anti-ban due to the unique aspects Florges brought to the tier. What changed my mind was both using and playing against a set that I initially brushed off when first advocated to me by zS, being Choice Specs. Tera Moonblast 3HKO’s Assault Vest Perrserker quite easily, 2HKO's 16+ Vaporeon, and KO’s Muk if hit by a Psychic prior in the game. These are decidedly the best checks to Florges available in the tier. The sheer BP brought by a special attacker while having decent speed (faster than Sandaconda and most other walls) and good bulk even when uninvested sets Florges apart from breakers like Bruxish, held back by its contact moves and poor bulk, or Pyroar, with a poor typing and again poor bulk. Florges feels very similar to Goodra in this aspect, but Goodra at least had to click the right coverage move to make progress and its main STAB option had a drawback, while Moonblast is infamously overtuned and lacks any sort of drawback. I do think Calm Mind sets are rather manageable comparatively; it's quite easy to identify its Tera type based on its set, and set based on its Tera type through scouting, but Choice Specs Florges makes scouting impossible and almost always guarantees a KO whenever it hits the field. Despite this, the tier desperately appreciates a good bulky Fairy-type and I'm open to leaving Florges around to allow for more meta development to see if it becomes more manageable, but I've built and played a lot since it dropped at the beginning of the month and have not found its presence any more tolerable.
Specs Florges is kinda absurd.
It has a good chance to 3 hit ko max sp.def mag with tera fairy moonblast.
sp.def Muk of all mons gets 2 shotted by tera fairy moonblast if its switches to 1 specs psychic.
And Its not like this mon is linear it can run so many good tera types AND different sets. Specs ph.def cm, sp.def cm,lo cm and many more.It can be very hard to guess.
Overall i think bulky florges sets are a blessing to the tier but offensive sets to me is pretty broken. Overall a VERY TOP-Tier mon imo. Would be a bit sad if it gets banned but that wont be surprising.
 

EonX

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Already spoke on Florges, so I guess I'll talk about the others real quick:



Is it the best pure offensive Pokemon in the tier? Maybe since Florges is around to make Zoroark never want to lock into a Dark move on Choice sets. I think by now we all know what Bruxish does, but I think that's precisely the reason why I can see people wanting it suspect tested. Admittedly, I'm kind of on the fence with this one as it is very potent offensively, but teams using Umbreon over Vaporeon tend to not really give it many chances to come in, if any at all. Its frail, still outsped by common offensive Pokemon if it doesn't carry Scarf, and has counterplay on offense and defense. Obviously, bulky teams have Umbreon, Tera Dark Vaporeon, and Tera Dragon Sandaconda to absorb a hit or two, and that's typically all you'll need to keep it from doing anything more than taking out a Pokemon. Offensively, there's Cacturne, Jolteon, Zoroark, Scarf Toxicroak, Scarf Rotom, and Paldean Tauros that can either come in on common moves or revenge kill after Bruxish gets a KO. Obviously, all of these faster Pokemon will struggle some against Scarf sets, but the Scarf set has way less potency against balance teams due to no way of boosting its damage output. I'm leaning toward no suspect currently, but it's definitely something I can understand being suspected.


Probably suspect worthy, but idk about banworthy. Eel's Coil set is a mean customer when it comes to setting up and winning games while the Assault Vest set is among the best enablers of frailer offensive Pokemon thanks to its solid hit-taking potential and slow U-turn / Volt Switch. While both sets have minimal drawbacks, I'm not completely sold on either one having such a big reward that it breaks the tier. Every tier has to have a few low-risk, high reward Pokemon within it and that's what Eel feels like to me right now. The Coil set would be the one that gets it suspected imo as it can just kind of win games against some teams, but I'm a little unsure if it does this against enough types of teams to be outright banned. But hey, that's part of what suspect tests are for; to see if a borderline broken Pokemon is indeed too much for the tier to handle.


The addition of Florges has really taken a bite out of Zoroark's potency as the tier finally has an incredibly potent and sturdy Dark resist to force Zoroark into using a coverage move consistently. While I feel Zoroark deserves a closer look in a meta without Florges, I don't believe it should be a high priority so long as we have Florges in the tier as it's a Fairy-type that can be utilized on many different teams and is able to do so much more than just check Zoroark. Is Florges broken? Probably. Is Zoroark a problem in a meta w/o Florges? Quite possibly. Is Zoroark an issue in a Florges meta? Not exactly. Solid currently, but not broken imo.


So I've thought for a long time that Medicham is nowhere near banworthy or even suspect worthy, and I still hold that belief. All it really does is click Close Combat for the most part and the tier is able to handle that pretty effectively. While it's obvious that Passimian is better, I feel that Paldean Tauros and Toxicroak are both better than it too because of the extra defensive utility they can provide (and high Speed tier in Tauros's case) for when there isn't really an opening for them to sweep. Meanwhile, Medicham has very little defensive utility for when it can't immediately click Close Combat and it doesn't offer much outside of that. Scarf is decidedly worse than Passimian because of no Knock Off or U-turn, wallbreaker sets have trouble standing out from Life Orb Toxicroak due to its Water immunity to give it free entry into Vaporeon and a way to punish Bruxish for KOing something with Choiced Wave Crash while having Sucker Punch to rk something faster. And Paldean Tauros has a significantly better Speed tier for Scarf sets to capitalize on, with it outpacing +1 Oricorio and Vivillon (Medicham can't) opposing Scarf Toxicroak (again, Medicham can't) and Choice Scarf Bruxish (you know the drill) so, yeah, Medicham is a threat offensively, but nothing that you have to go out of your way to prepare for. As long as you prepare for the other Fighting types, you're probably at least ok against Medicham at worst and you're probably better than ok.
 

plznostep

Flittle Fanatic
is a Community Contributor
Heya NU, wanted to give my takes on some of the Pokemon on the radar at the moment : D

:sv/florges:

I think this one needs to go, defensive calm mind is really strong, it has numerous opportunities to hit the the field due to its excellent special bulk and you can go tera ground to give yourself perfect coverage, hitting Steel- and Poison-types or just run psychic alongside if you don't want to waste your tera, (although this comes at the cost of not hitting steels) and grass moves can also be ran if you really want to hit stuff like Haze Vaporeon who can be a bit of a pain to deal with. Not to mention, Florges has a powerful specs set that hits incredibly hard, using all our aforementioned coverage moves to hit the entirety of the with ease. So combine all that, and you get a Pokemon with some set diversity that can be hard to play around at times, especially since i haven't mentioned more offensive calm mind sets too which you need to watch out for. (also orange florges is the best and if you think otherwise you are a fraud)

:sv/bruxish:

I think Bruxish is also fine, the tier is perfectly equiped to deal with this thing. Cacturne, Vaporeon, Toxicroak can check it nicely, while revenging it with Scarf Rotom or Jolteon are fine options too, not to mention the tier has a lot of Dark types that can switch in when its locked into Psychic Fangs, some of which are incredibly dangerous to let in, such as Mabosstiff. I think if you really want you can suspect this thing but it just doesn't feel that bad to fight against at the moment, especially since it's pretty hard to get on the field safely in the first place. (although the next person I'll be talking about lets everything come in for free lol)

:sv/eelektross:

I have hated Eelektross for a while now. There isn't really any definitive counterplay to this Pokemon, and it's really obnoxious to fight and build against because of that. Coil sets can just demolish teams and Coil sets form of counterplay is kind of absurd where you want to switch in a status user or strong wallbreaker to beat Coil (often using your own tera to try and break the thing because it has no weaknesses) but Eelektross players have adapted and have stuff such as Substitute to block status and take a hit from these strong wallbreakers for free while firing back pretty hard. Even if they are not running Substitute, they have options such as Dragon Tail to phaze out other boosting Pokemon, such as Curse Muk to win the 1v1 everytime. Coil also has numerous opportunities to set up thanks to the prevalence of Sandaconda in the tier, another reason the thing is so obnoxious to fight against. I just wish there was something that I could slot onto my team that could 100% deal with it, but it seems like the tier just doesn't have something like that. It's probably part of my hatred for this thing but I think this Pokemon is just unhealthy, and I'm not the biggest fan of it.

:sv/zoroark:

Zoroark is fine, its another strong wallbreaker in the tier with good coverage but it's not banworthy, especially with Florges running around and numerous strong special walls are still around to deal with it, such as Chansey and Umbreon. Maybe take a look after Florges leaves, but even then I wouldn't think Zoroark is banworthy.

:sv/medicham:

Sorry, Medicham is probably the worse fighting in tier because all it offers you is strong wallbreaking and does not have much defensive utility to speak of, which can certainly be valuable, but Paldean Tauros has great bulk up sets and good bulk in general, meaning it can come in more often, and has a really amazing Speed tier of 100 for the tier, outpacing Pokemon such as Rotom, Bruxish and Mabosstiff. Toxicroak's ability allows it to check strong water type attackers while having nice resistances to types such as Fighting, while also having a lot of set diversity in Scarf, Physical SD sets, or Special NP sets. And Passimian if you ever have played this tier, you probably know Passimian is really good and I don't have to explain. I get that this thing is really strong and some people don't like it for that, but I personally just haven't had much trouble with it either when playing, since the fighting type answers i usually run also work for Medicham for the most part.
 

zS

this is all a moo point
is a Pre-Contributor
NUPL Champion
since everything has been said about florges, (ofc I want it gone too) I'm gonna talk about the main concern outside of it that I feel most people are sleeping on because of a mon that's gonna end up being banned.
:zoroark: I've been wanting to ban zoroark since day 1 of sv nu and my feeling hasn't changed at all. florges dropping indeed lowered zoroark's potency by quite a bit, but I don't think it's any less unhealthy for that reason. projecting myself in a post florges meta, we will just get back to the old meta but without copper that was one of the few mons that could check specs zoro. illusion still forces mind games and florges isn't even free into zoro as it takes a lot from specs sludge bomb and doesn't like being knock / tricked. this mon's just a pure nuisance, hence why I voted it a 4 on the survey because imo we need a florges qb and right after a zoro suspect.
 

Togkey

Banned deucer.
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Survey results are in!
Forms response chart. Question title: How balanced do you find the current metagame to be, with 1 meaning less balanced and 10 meaning more balanced?. Number of responses: 64 responses.

On a scale of 1 to 10, most players found the game to be a 7 in terms of balance, with pretty evenly spread results for other values. This is a great number but obviously could be higher. Game balance can mean a couple things; a balanced metagame could mean that the better player usually wins, a balanced metagame could also mean many playstyles are viable. Up to the reader's interpretation but regardless 7 is a good score.

Forms response chart. Question title: How enjoyable do you find the current metagame to be, with 1 meaning less enjoyable and 10 meaning more enjoyable?. Number of responses: 64 responses.

A lot more concentration on higher values, again averaging out at a 7, most players generally find the metagame enjoyable.

Forms response chart. Question title: How do you view Zoroark's position in the metagame, with 1 being wholly unproblematic and 5 being very problematic?. Number of responses: 64 responses.

Zoroark had very evenly distributed results, with a majority of votes going towards a 2 out of 5 in terms of being broken. Zoroark will not be receiving any tiering action based off this, but due to the number of votes for 3 and 4, we will be keeping an eye on it in the future.

Forms response chart. Question title: How do you view Medicham's position in the metagame, with 1 being wholly unproblematic and 5 being very problematic?. Number of responses: 64 responses.

Medicham, the day 1 king of NU, received 0 votes for a 5, and most votes in 1 and 2. Medicham will definitely not be seeing any tiering action. Damn this guy fell off.

Forms response chart. Question title: How do you view Bruxish's position in the metagame, with 1 being wholly unproblematic and 5 being very problematic?. Number of responses: 64 responses.

Bruxish got most points in a 4 out of 5, with an average of about 3 out of 5. Bruxish will most likely have tiering action considered towards it based on this information, but a lack of 5's is also quite telling.

Forms response chart. Question title: How do you view Eelektross's position in the metagame, with 1 being wholly unproblematic and 5 being very problematic?. Number of responses: 64 responses.

Eelektross, much like in the teambuilder, is very well-rounded for votes, with a nice bell curve meeting right at the 3 out of 5 mark. Due to the number of 4's and 5's voted, Eelektross may be considered for tiering action in the future.

Forms response chart. Question title: How do you view Florges's position in the metagame, with 1 being wholly unproblematic and 5 being very problematic?. Number of responses: 64 responses.

And now for Florges. Yes we will be Quick Banning this. The sheer percentage of 5's has never been seen in an NU survey before and truly speaks to the community's perception of this Pokemon, further cementing the council's opinions of the Pokemon as well.

1681525774775.png

Rabia messed up the formatting for this question, so I'm just going to cherry-pick the most common / notable sentiments from this.

- :sandaconda: Many people expressed that Sandaconda deserves consideration for tiering action. I imagine this can be attributed to Sandaconda's overwhelming usage stats and potent Coil set coupled with Tera.
- :floatzel: :qwilfish: :golduck: More than one person mentioned Damp Rock. Manual Rain teams will be something we keep an eye on in the future.
- :vivillon: :lilligant: :oricorio: Many people mentioned Vivillon, Oricorio, or just the move Quiver Dance. While we cannot ban Quiver Dance, we will keep a close eye on Vivillon and Oricorio. Vivillon in particular has been mentioned in the council chat a couple times already.
- :mabosstiff: Mabosstiff has been something council has been eying since the tier's start, it hasn't proven to be too overbearing but trust the moment it shows to be we will Old Yeller it.
- Togkey: like 3 people said Togkey.. fuck you
- Terastallization: I do not see Tera being tested any time soon, it has not proven to be too overbearing in the tier. (complaining about Tera is so last year)
- Other things I thought were interesting were mentions of Dudunsparce, Blastoise who doesn't exist this gen, Barraskewda who we literally already banned, and two people just submitted the number '2'.

1681526380109.png

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Thanks.

If you have any questions regarding the survey, please feel free to message me or Rabia on here, Discord, or PS!
 

Attachments

Rabia

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GP & NU Leader
yes woohoo official TL(TM) post

:sv/florges:
Florges is officially being quickbanned from SV NU! (Kris or Marty to implement)

Florges was originally voted on by council and ultimately allowed to stay in the tier a bit longer, but its Choice Specs set alongside its variable Calm Mind sets ultimately proved too much for the tier. Choice Specs sets lack consistent counterplay, as most switch-ins are 3HKOed at best by Moonblast or Psychic. Meanwhile, Calm Mind can range from bulkier ones with Tera Poison to offensive ones with Tera Ground, further solidifying Florges as a funky flower that can pick and choose counters at will. The community overwhelming voted for tiering action on it; well, here we are :]
 

Rabia

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GP & NU Leader
A follow-up: we're unlikely to be suspect testing anything in the immediate future. Our course of action, unless something drastic happens to alter it, will be to wait for May tier shifts and see what happens as a result of them. If they're not a huge shake-up for NU, then we'll have another community survey out after the conclusion of Swiss tour and go from there.

---

Let's get more discussion going. I'll talk about a few Pokemon that I used lately that were very fun:

:sv/appletun:
Appletun @ Leftovers
Ability: Thick Fat
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
- Apple Acid
- Dragon Tail
- Recover
- Leech Seed

Shoutouts Pokeslice for this set. Appletun is a very solid wall, offering many useful resistances against attackers like Bruxish, Eelektross, Sandaconda, and many more. Leech Seed recovery makes beating Coil Eelektross one-on-one actually doable, and Dragon Tail is just super nice insurance against bulky setup sweepers in general. It's not Goodra, but it's not the worst alternative ever!

:sv/hattrem:
Hattrem @ Eviolite
Ability: Magic Bounce
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 252 HP / 228 Def / 28 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Psyshock
- Draining Kiss
- Mystical Fire

Shoutouts Togkey for this one! Calm Mind Hattrem was really fun to use. Naturally, hazard control is at a premium in NU, so having a Magic Bounce Pokemon is really cool in general. But, one that can double as a setup sweeper? Very nice. There's a dearth of viable Steel-types in NU at the moment, let alone ones that can actually take on Hattrem with any consistency thanks to Mystical Fire, and special walls in general are often special attackers as well, making it easier for Hattrem to beat them with Calm Mind boosts.

:sv/eelektross:
Eelektross @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
Tera Type: Poison
EVs: 252 HP / 240 SpD / 16 Spe
Careful Nature
- Thunder Punch
- Drain Punch
- Substitute
- Coil

This is just standard Coil Eelektross, but Tera Poison + Substitute are two techs on it that need more use. Tera Poison is just wildly helpful against any Choice Scarf Passimian that try to brute force their way through you, and you retain a Toxic immunity this way. In addition, Substitute is nice for blocking status on the whole, meaning foes like Will-O-Wisp Drifblim and Rotom and Glare Sandaconda still can't threaten you all too well.
 

Pokeslice

Thanks for the Dance
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After seeing the recent survey scores and refusing to believe there could be a meta where Eelektross is broken, I decided to do some theory monning to see what I could come up with to beat Eel, specifically Coil Eel. Part of the problem with Eel can be that the massive difference in the two set varieties call for what often seems like very different counterplay, and sometimes if you let Eel get one free turn to Coil because you thought it was AV, it can start building momentum and steamrolling your team. After thinking about it, I realized that teching Tera Fairy on a lot of Pokemon adds multiple layers to what can actually beat Coil Eel, flipping the tables on a ton of matchups where Eel feels it gets free setup. Although people already throw Tera Fairy on a lot of Pokemon without really thinking about it, I thought I'd give people one more reason to do it.

The reason I realized Tera Fairy does so well into Coil Eel was that a Fairy-typing shuts down many of the things that make Coil Eel so threatening. Specifically, access to Drain Punch allows Eel to gain back any HP that it might lose when setting up, making it extremely difficult at times to break down, while Dragon Tail can phaze out opposing set up from Pokemon such as Coil Eel or anything trying to switch in to check it. With this in mind, here are just a few of the examples I came up with when theorymonning, although I definitely won't claim this is an exhaustive list.

:sv/vaporeon:
On paper, Vaporeon seems like fodder for both variants of Eel, with AV sets gaining free momentum thanks to Volt and Coil sets getting free set up from a mon that's terrified of T-Punch, but if Vaporeon Terastilizes into a Fairy-type, it becomes a strong answer to both sets. For AV sets, yes it can still get Volted on, but it becomes about as good as a check can be, especially since it can't phaze away your Wish attempts. The same logic applies to Coil sets here. Vaporeon's Surf outdamages T-Punch and Drain Punch recovery while Hazing away any attempt to Coil, easily winning the 1v1. Yet another reason why Vaporeon is, imo, a clear top 3 Pokemon in the metagame.

:sv/umbreon:
The other Eeveelution does the same exact things here as Vaporeon, easily stopping any set up after Terastilizing thanks to a combo of Foul Play 3HKOing and Yawn shenanigans. Also just like Vap, Umbreon makes a pretty solid answer to AV sets, too!

:sv/chansey:
Already one of the better answers to AV, which Tera Fairy helps with even more by stopping D-Tail + hazard stack, Tera Fairy Chansey is another Pokemon that can turn from setup fodder to Coil Eel answer thanks to its overwhelming bulk. 0 Atk +6 T-Punch won't ever KO it, and by the time Eel even gets to that point Seismic Toss will have picked it off. It also doesn't need to be said that Drain Punch does literally negative damage, too.

:sv/drifblim:
Although normal Wisp + Sap sets can do pretty well into Coil Eel and effectively beat it, a Paraed Drifblim (and some other instances) can face a few situations where it has to take a +1 T-Punch, which can allow Eel to overwhelm it in the long run. Tera Fairy can often take off the burden of those lines by giving Drifblim an easier way to get a Wisp or Sap off. Tera Fairy is also just a great fit on Drifblim, who will often pull that trigger to gain a resistance to Zoro / Pass Knock.

:sv/eelektross: :sv/dudunsparce:
Your own Eel, whether Coil or AV can make for a nice answer with Tera Fairy to opposing Coil Eel. In the case of Coil, you can set up next to it and eventually phaze it out with your own Dragon Tail while potentially giving yourself a set up Eel to go nuts. AV does something similar, but instead of being a hard check to non-Tera Fairy Eel like Coil Eel would be, it's more of a soft check that can force a Dragon Tail in a pinch. Potentially, the only other Pokemon with Coil + a phazing move in Dudunsparce can do the exact same thing, although I've yet to see or test such a thing because building with this mon is stupid for no reason!

:sv/rotom:
Similarily to Drifblim, Wisp Rotom already has the tools to be a pretty solid answer to Coil Eel, but Tera Fairy can allow for free Nasty Plot set ups when facing a D-Tail variant which is always a nice option to blow through Eel. Maybe a tough option to fit, but Rotom also has access to Foul Play, which can 3HKO basically all Eel's, which is always a nice thing to do when AV sets are coming in on you constantly. Might be worth exploring, but I'm not sure that it's necessary tbh.

Obviously, there are downsides to most of these, namely being that you're forced to waste or save your Tera, but I think more people should mess around with Tera Fairy mons in this metagame to beat Coil Eelektross. What's also nice about turning into a Fairy-type is that in a metagame with so many Fighting + Dark types being top tier, you'll almost always appreciate the ability to Terastilize into a Fairy-type at some point, making packing it on mons like these a tech that isn't hyper specific to one matchup. It should also be noted that, although some of these will do fantastic into all variants of Eel, none of these should be your only answer nor are they the only answers in the metagame. Pokemon such as Lurantis, Appletun, and Toxic / Haze Muk come to mind as other Pokemon to pack, while I bet there are a bunch more Tera Fairy mons out there that might be able to do something similar. Also, don't forget to bring offensive answers that can break through both Special and Physical Eel!!
 

zS

this is all a moo point
is a Pre-Contributor
NUPL Champion
zoroark is a pure nuisance to this metagame, i know i have talked about it like 2 weeks ago or so but i just can’t stand it anymore. maybe we should wait for shifts to warrant any action on this guy and while i think this is the best situation at the moment, we shouldn’t have waited this long for it to go. on top of being one of it not the most polarizing and powerful breakers the tier has to offer, it just pushes mind games to its limits making you literally have to flip a coin early-mid before anything notable has taken damage. the fact that it shares so many good moves with top and standard mons makes illusion mind games even worse, since even if you get it right whether it was him or pass that used knock/turn or whatever junk shit it has clicked, it doesn’t mean that you’ll get ‘em right every time per se. that wouldn’t be an issue in the slightest if those illusion mind games just didn’t flip the game entirely into the zoro player’s favor if gotten right, getting rid of zoro’s or its diguise’s check in 1 turn giving you a close to unlosable advantage is just dumb as fuck and makes for an unhealthy environment imo. being able to get in such a position on early turns in a bo vs bo / balance vs balance mu is just way too dumb and doesn’t reward playing ability in the slightest if you ask me. just make your opponent toss a coin, if it’s heads they lose if it’s tails they win. this is not fun nor healthy hence why i think we should have at least a suspect test in the near future.
maybe shifts will change my opinion and losing smtg like pass which is likely or getting some ru mons will help i don’t know but for now this is where i stand.
idk if my opinion’s popular, def heard some voices saying the same thing i do so i had to push for it. if y’all wanna discuss further on this topic, or on any other related to the metagame don’t hesitate to post/reply to this or to tag me on discord. pce
 
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