Metagame np: Stage 12: One More Red Nightmare (Tiering Survey @ Post #8)

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ishtar

ishtar

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:sv/tauros-paldea-blaze:

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Tauros-Paldea-Blaze has become one of the premier breakers in the tier after shifts. Losing checks such as Slowbro-Galar, Gligar, and Milotic have contributed to it becoming a near uncounterable threat in the tier. The loss of Tauros-Paldea-Aqua also means that it faces much less competition as a Fighting-type, and also means that it does not have to play around Intimidate or Water moves from it. A decent defensive typing allows it to switch into threats such as Skuntank, Wo-Chien and Decidueye, while its fast Speed means its hard to revenge kill. Access to Intimidate also gives it extra entry points vs. the many physical Pokemon in the tier.

Tauros-Paldea Blaze does have some checks though, such as Altaria, Bellibolt, Palossand and physically defensive Gastrodon, but all lose to certain sets such as Banded or Bulk Up due to coverage and Tera options. While Banded and Bulk Up sets are definitely the most brutal, Choice Scarf is an excellent revenge killer, though often quite prediction reliant. All in all, Tauros-Paldea-Blaze is a Pokemon able to work overtime in every phase of the game.

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Suspect test information:

  • All games must be played on the Pokémon Showdown! PU ladder on a new alt with the following format: "PUBU (nickname)”. For example, PUBUDOUG or PUBUASA.
  • You have to reach a COIL of 2800 in order to get reqs. For reference, the B-value for this suspect will be 7.
  • Do NOT impersonate other people in your ladder alt, do NOT use any usernames which are offensive, flame-baiting, or targeting specific users, and do NOT use usernames which could be interpreted as breaking any of the username rules on Pokémon Showdown! Failure to abide to this will result in you being barred from voting in this suspect, and potential infractions.
  • Any form of voting manipulation will result in swift and severe punishment. You are more than welcome to state your argument to as many people as you so please, but do not use any kind of underhanded tactics to get a result you desire. Bribery, blackmail, or any other type of tactic used to sway votes will be handled and result in harsh sanctions.
  • Do not attempt to cheat the ladder. We will know if you did not actually achieve voting requisites, so don't do it. Harsh sanctions will be applied.
  • This also includes throwing games to help other people qualify. Play your games normally and fairly.
  • The suspect test will last for 14 days, ending on Saturday, October 26th 23:59 GMT -4.
GXE = Games Required
71 = 343
72 = 173
73 = 116
74 = 88
75 = 71
76 = 59
77 = 51
78 = 45
79 = 41
80 = 37
81 = 34
82 = 31
83 = 29
84 = 27
85 = 25

/!\ NOTICE /!\ PU will not be tolerating any form of voting manipulation. Any attempt to manipulate votes can result in an infraction, loss of eligibility to vote in the current test, and loss of the Tiering Contributor badge. While we won't necessarily enforce super strict punishment, this won't be tolerated and will be handled accordingly. Voting manipulation can simply be described as attempting to get people to vote a way on the test in inappropriate manners. Bribing with teams to vote a certain way, directly messaging people to vote a certain way, publicly announcing "vote this way" all fall under voting manipulation. For more query, feel free to PM me, asa or DugZa.
 
Thoughts after reqs : I don’t think Tauros-Blaze is broken. For me, it's on the same power level as other attackers in the tier. Tauros can 2HKO anything with CB and the right prediction, or sweep with the BU set. However, I personally feel like the same could be said about other mons in the tier, like Toxtricity, Braviary-H, Tornadus, etc. I don’t think it’s unreasonably hard to check, as most teams encountered during the suspect packed multiple checks without feeling « forced ». There are rockers, especially those with Rocky Helmet, like Mudsdale and Gastrodon wearing it down. And notable Flying-types like Scyther and Tornadus both outspeed it. Close Combat and Flare Blitz, while strong, don't do it any favors by destroying its bulk. It’s not unreasonably fast and can be revenged by scarfers or anything faster than 100 Speed. Sure, if it’s running the Bulk Up set and starts to Trailblaze on your Gastrodon, it could become a problem. Otherwise, I don’t think Trailblaze is as free as it looks. Most of the time, it’s down to the tera type it uses. But, that’s totally fine and not something related to only Tauros. I also noted that almost every match, the tera type used seemed to be one resisting Fighting, like Fairy, Poison, or Ghost, meaning that it’s not actually that hard to punish the Tauros tera-ing for the sweep. This makes Tauros balanced in PU in my opinion.
 
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Congrats to MZ for winning the first suspect tour!!
semifinals - mysticalmarshtomp vs MZ
semifinals - Spitfire arcanine vs philiposophical
finals - MZ VS philiposophical
 
just got reqs using a team i actually built for once (soak electromorphosis bellibolt is really good folks, try it out), and i have to say, i don't think redbull (i'm not typing out the full name every time) is as… well, as bullshit as people tout

first, the reasons many people think he is: redbull is incredibly good at his job as a breaker or setup sweeper and extremely difficult to stop once he gets the ball rolling. intimidate and good physical bulk lets him switch in for free on way too many mons and either start setting up or punish the switch, hitting base 100 speed on top of the aforementioned bulk makes him difficult to revenge, and the damage output is self-evident

perhaps most troubling is the fact that we have to bring up the dachsbun principle: "if dachsbun is being seriously suggested as a check for a mon, something has gone horribly wrong" (see: chi-yu and gouging fire in ou, koraidon in ubers, arceus-dragon in uubers, blaziken during its brief stint in uu, etc). not only does redbull violate the dachsbun principle, i have documented proof that he can, under the right conditions (i.e. a suboptimal dachsbun set played poorly), actually 1v1 it

but there are definite hard stops to the common redbull sets. altaria in particular fucks over bulk up sets pretty hard unless you've either set up a lot beforehand or are running stone edge over trailblaze/eq; if you do choose to run stone edge on bulk up you seriously struggle against physdef gastrodon and palossand, and you're also relying on a very missable move as coverage. banded sets are harder to comfortably switch into because they have room for two coverage moves and it's usually edgequake, but it's fairly straightforward to play around banded redbull once he's locked in. physdef bellibolt can screw any non-eq set with static and open up the opportunity for revenge kills, although that's rng-dependent so it's less counterplay and more counterprayer. mudsdale just kinda blanks a lot of things that redbull can do, although it's vulnerable to being worn down over time or to being set up on by tera grass trailblaze. there are other mons to mention but this post is too long already. i haven't encountered anything viable that can reliably switch into every redbull set at once, but i found during my reqs run that most teams can comfortably fit multiple defensive checks at once without seeming like they're going out of their way to answer him. there are offensive redbull answers too, but again, this post is too long as it is without me going into them

so, in conclusion, i think redbull is a very strong mon, but based on my experience he doesn't meet my criteria for calling him broken. you do have to play well to get the most use out of him, he can definitely be played around, and he's got enough defensive and offensive answers that he doesn't feel particularly constraining when building, even though he's a liiiiiittle matchup-fishy and violates the dachsbun principle. i have my doubts about this, but i will likely be voting do not ban. my opinion is subject to change if people are convincing enough, though, because i admittedly lack experience in pu outside of this suspect and am just basing this on my personal reqs experience and general competitive knowledge
 
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Redbull remains legal in SV PU.

We want to let the tier breathe before going after anything else, so in the mean time, why not fill out our newest tiering survey to help us map out a proper course of action going forward? See here for more information on the survey.

Feel free to post your feelings about the meta or explain your survey responses here, or feel free not to! WC and SCL are both going on, so I’m sure there’s plenty to talk about.
 
hello! i have actually really been enjoying the current meta, and decided to share my personal thoughts/opinions on the meta and what I've really enjoyed. Gonna start with some fun cores I've been using and then I'll get into thoughts on the strongest mons in the tier rn.

Good Cores
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These three feel amazing together on bulky offense/balance builds, specifically physically Def bellibolt and gastrodon, and defog uturn frosmoth. Bellibolt and Gastrodon cover a majority of physical threats in the tier, Frosmoth enables them both to run beneficial items over hdb and forms a volturn core, belli+frosmoth provides paraspam, and gastrodon is super flexible depending on team needs. Biggest threats are decidueye, band golurk, and you're going to need more support on the special side more than likely. However, these three just provide a lot together and has formed a defensive volturn backbone for some of my teams lately.

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Choice band Arcanine is absolutely a threat right now with its coverage, Intimidate, espeed, etc. Both on paper and in practice I have noticed arcanine is very successful at baiting in pokemon like coal, gastrodon, bellibolt, etc. This gave me the idea to pair it with sneasel-hsui, because it appreciates any of those getting weakened by a band arcanine. I specifically use flare blitz, close combat, espeed, double edge because Tera normal double edge allows you to reliably take out gastrodon when you need to for sneasel, and it surprise kills other random things that don't expect it like goodra. Sneasel-h provides breaking potential itself for arcanine, it's speed tier makes your offensive core pretty safe vs fast teams when you add it with arcanine espeed, and both of them naturally have countermeasures to traditional answers to physical attackers such as will-o-wisp and Intimidate. These traits combined form a very self-sufficient offensive core that can be fit on bulky offense and balance.

Meta Thoughts
Honestly, i really enjoy this meta. It took a moment to adjust to so much change in the tier lately, but I think the meta is developing quickly and mons that seemed broken Initially are appearing to be fine (for the most part). I'm going to give my thoughts on the mons that have been tossed into the "broken" conversation (scyther, toxtricity, meloetta, zoroark, and redbull). I have heard other things mentioned, but this post is already very long. I would be really interested to hear others takes on the meta!

Scyther is a menace, but I am still on the fence with this guy. With SD+terablast, Scyther can flip games very quickly. I have seen Tera Ground, Tera fighting close combat, Tera normal, Tera fire, even Tera electric. Outside of this you also have to consider trailblaze sets, and it's ability to pivot throughout the early game is annoying and can create scenarios where it basically breaks for itself. With that said, bellibolt is on top of the meta defensively rn imo, and punishes majority of sets and can even toxic Tera ground on the SD if you're paranoid and break even the best you can. You could even go Tera Muddy water tbh. Outside of that, there is rhydon with Tera if necessary, mudsdale, and honestly there's a lot of offensive counterplay still as well even for the trailblaze set. As for eviolite, I think the investment of team support and Tera makes it a valid set despite how powerful it is. Powerful sets like SD eviolite should require a lot of resources to function at its best, and that checks out to me here.

Toxtricity is literally so balanced; this one kinda surprises me when I hear it discussed. Anyways, toxtricity is powerful, yes. It can sweep, yes. However, it's most powerful move does nothing to Ghost so Tera ghost tech on its own will go miles as countermeasure, or a ghost type. Speaking of ghost types, decid and golurk are relatively safe switches outside of snarl, which can only really fit on choice sets and is easily taken advantage of if locked into it. The shift gear set is honest and doesn't feel nearly as busted as other things in the tier rn. To add to this, it is also very slow. Tldr this is an honest mon.

Meloetta is probably an S tier pokemon, with its wide movepool, actually not bad typing, special bulk, and utility options. It can run scarf, specs, hdb knock off, Leftovers cm, even the rare gimmick relic song. It's a phenomenal pokemon. However, it also has 90 speed, it's stabs have immunity types that can switch into it, it's weak to uturn, and can't fit everything it wants in one moveset really. Don't get me wrong she's great, we love her, but she's not broken.

Zoroark would be fine, but illusion is stupid. Especially when paired with scyther, it is busted, because of them both knowing Swords Dance and creating nasty situations with that reality. Zoroark in theory can be read by the opponent if it feels telegraphed or logical enough, and can be limited by entry Hazards. However, when you add that this thing can run band, scarf, specs, nasty plot, Swords Dance, and more, it just becomes overwhelming imo. Personally? I think zoroark makes scyther look more problematic than it already is. If it was tom world we would suspect zoroark and then look at scyther after if we still hate him.

Redbull is fine i guess? I still believe on paper there are very limited switchins to its band set, and it gets plenty of opportunity to get attacks off, and when you are clicking correctly, u just kinda win. But in practice, redbull struggles to get the mileage it presents on paper. Trailblaze sets lack coverage to properly sweep a lot of the time. Scarf sets are good, but overprepped for rn imo. Redbull is not on my radar anymore.

If you got to the end of this, shoutout to you! Happy building and battling.
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