Announcement NP: Stage 18 - Back to Me (Terrakion Retest)

[etern]

Terrakion was swiftly banned by the NU Council due to it's combination of a great speed tier, gargantuan attack, and good dual STAB combo which allows it to wall-break extremely effectively. However, some council members were less impressed than others and felt that it deserved a chance to be examined more closely in a controlled environment.

With access to Swords Dance, a high base powered STAB combo, and respectable bulk, Terrakion boasts an offensive profile which can potentially steamroll through most balance teams. However, it's typing leaves it somewhat easy to be revenge killed by things like Scarf Munkidori, Barraskewda, Inteleon, Ribombee, Scream Tail, Tornadus, and Basculegion, and also limits its ability to setup in the face of many defensive Pokemon without being forced to Terrastalize. Choice Band sets are powerful but can be scouted and pivoted around with the myriad of defensive Pokemon in the tier running Protect. However, it can be quite risky to scout Terrakion without knowing if it's choiced or not, as SD sets can capitalize on this free turn and flip matchups in an instant. Overall, there is no doubt that Terrakion would be a meta-defining Pokemon in the tier, however the question stands, is there a place for it? Or is it's power simply too much for NU to handle.


NOTE: THIS TEST WILL BE USING THE NEW SUSPECT PROCESS!

The instructions to participate in this test are as follows:

​

• Create a new account on PS. You do not have to follow any specific naming convention, but your suspect account must have never played a game in NU before this suspect test went up or you will not receive valid requirements (resetting W/L does not count for this - the account you use must never have played NU before the test, full stop.​
• At any point on your new account, use the command /linksmogon on Pokemon Showdown! You will receive instructions on what to do once you run this command.​
• Double check that you're listed as a voter here! If you aren't listed as a voter despite having valid reqs, please contact myself, Rabia, or a member of staff.​
• If you have any questions about this new process, feel free to PM me.​

The requirement to vote in this suspect test is a COIL value of 2800. The deadline for getting requirements will be Sunday, October 19th at 11:59pm GMT+11.​

 

[MethMaster4546]

Sure ill post since everyone else is scared to. Terrak is busted as hell and no one can convince me otherwise. i just used choice band but I'm sure sd and scarf sets are good too (rocks + 3a is a waste of a move slot). banded cc is the most free move to click it hits ridiculous ranges after tera.
(mainly getting the 0hko on spdef zong and swampert) and if something resists cc it gets at least 2hko by stone edge unless youre running a pre knocked full physdef gligar. its speed tier is also insane for how hard and tanky it is, terrak is often able to live at least one hit at full health. theres not much to say about this mon its very restricting in the builder and in game just because it hits so hard.band sets basically become 50/50 games of edge or cc you gotta get it right or you lose a mon, god forbid it actually is sd and sets up on the switch with a defensive tera. I genuinely see very little counterplay to terrak besides hoping your opp makes mistakes and you guess right.

Although i will admit i am a very inexperienced nu player so take everything with a grain of salt and feel free to lmk if i grossly overlooked something

Also heres the fuckass team i used duraldons goated
https://pokepast.es/853f4c912f4b68ae

 

[bricknermon]

Just finished reqs, and the ladder is an absolute disaster right now. 90% of the games I played were against webs (I was also using webs to get games done faster), which is obviously because of the araq and bee drops, but terrak also fits perfectly on these styles. On paper terrak immediately seemed broken, a stab combo that is basically unresisted, faster than munkidori, and decent enough bulk to live a hit for a setup turn or revenge kill. I used a sub sd set, which probably would've been better with no sub and a third move like trailblaze or eq, but sub did win me some games. I also have used choice band which just felt like a 50/50 to switch into. I would definitely like to see how terrak fairs on and against teams that are not hyper offense, since I didn't have many games against those styles, but I could imagine getting an sd against a passive enemy could rip a team to shreds or at least force tera.

Terrak's one weakness is its defensive typing makes it difficult to switch it in hard vs many targets, because of its plethora of weaknesses to things like ground, fighting, water, and psychic, but this problem is not too glaring on hyper offense where you don't want to be switching too often, and it could also fit onto pivot filled offenses, with munkidori being an obvious partner.

It really feels like a faster flamigo, which is a Mon that is already a better speed tier away from being broken. This being said, I think I will probably be voting BAN for Terrakion.

shout-out 5MGMatthew5 for the team
https://pokepast.es/b30e0abe0077f6dc

 

[big tony 2014]

After Initially voting to quick ban terrak I did wonder if it was fine and I was just falling for hype. It didn't seem like a big problem with azelf completely overshadowing it, but after getting regs and testing a couple of sets I think I can say for certain that terrak is just blatantly too strong and fast for the tier. While I've seen a lot of sd sweepers on webs and other ho teams I think the set that truly pushes terrak over the line is band. It's very similar to flamigo except it can easily break thru flamigo walls like glowbro hound and bellibolt while not risking rocky helmet / recoil chip, as well as also outspeeding revengers like flygon/munki. It basically always needs to be protect scouted but even then if it's not band and gets an sd you're in a world of trouble. For these reasons I'll be voting to KEEP TERRAKION BANNED. Anyways tier seems mostly alright but hopefully after this there will be another suspect tests for other problematic mons best of luck to those still trying to get regs.

 

[Django]

I voted to QB Terrakion and got reqs using a combination of Terrakion webs and Scyther+Cinccino HO. After that and seeing other discussion happening, my decision won't be changing and I'll be voting Ban.

For me the main things which push Terrakion over the edge are:

• The speed tier. Even without a Scarf it puts itself above the crucial base 100 speed tier (Flygon, Tauros, Staraptor) and even above certain mons which are normally used to beat that (Munkidori) and ties with Infernape. Potential Scarf sets outrun the whole tier, and force speed control options which are either bad or unreliable
• Complete lack of defensive checks (no Palossand is not real). Switching in to CB is nigh on impossible, especially with EQ coverage, and SD is even harder to compete with.
• Set variation. Beyond obvious CB and SD+3 attack sets, sub exists to spite potential revenge killers, it can try Tera Normal Quick Attack, Scarf, Taunt and / or Stealth Rock as a potential lead. All of these have subtly different routes to check it, and the punishment for guessing the set wrong is simply too much

Combined, all of these factors make Terrakion too much for the tier. NU is already insanely fast paced, and Terrakion amplifies that effect. There's a reason ladder is only Webs / HO, and banning Terrakion is the first step towards fixing that.

 

[Mushfiq]

Pretty new to the tier and just recently picked it up for a tour. The meta was fun, so I decided to stick around for the Terrakion suspect test. Honestly, from my experience facing and using Terrakion, the knee-jerk ban reaction feels like an unwillingness to move away from the good old standard BO cores and adapt to different structures rising.

The only thing Terrakion forces you to do is think your switches through when it comes in, due to having strong STABs with good neutral coverage. In practice, plenty of mons comfortably tank hits and cripple it/knock it out in return. Intimidate WaterBull is very common and splashable, and there are enough faster options for revenge killing (Torn, Barra, Inteleon, Raikou, Scarfers, Cincinno).

Some people were saying it's now the fastest Scarfer, outspeeding Munkidori, which again comes back to the first point of not letting the meta adapt. Scarf Munkidori being the staple scarfer shouldn't be treated like a pillar that defines NU, it's just a metagame development that should be allowed the freedom to change. Faster scarfers than Terrakion are perfectly viable and have been used successfully in high-level tour games. There's also sufficient strong priority users and defense-boosting sweepers in the tier, that make dealing with Terrakion much easier in practice.

The metagame already has a lot more oppressive elements, especially terrain sweepers, that have far more impact in dictating game outcome and are far more oppressive in how they can be responded to, yet techs and structures have developed to play around them without too much bending over backwards. I see the same thing happening with Terrakion in a few weeks.

Used a 5-minute Terrain team to get reqs: https://pokepast.es/89cfd9cf4c65d435
And honestly, in comparison with existing elements in the tier (terrain, webs, Munki, etc.), Terrakion felt underwhelming in most cases.

Firmly voting Do Not Ban

 

[Phantomistix]

Pretty new to the tier and just recently picked it up for a tour. The meta was fun, so I decided to stick around for the Terrakion suspect test. Honestly, from my experience facing and using Terrakion, the knee-jerk ban reaction feels like an unwillingness to move away from the good old standard BO cores and adapt to different structures rising.

The only thing Terrakion forces you to do is think your switches through when it comes in, due to having strong STABs with good neutral coverage. In practice, plenty of mons comfortably tank hits and cripple it/knock it out in return. Intimidate WaterBull is very common and splashable, and there are enough faster options for revenge killing (Torn, Barra, Inteleon, Raikou, Scarfers, Cincinno).

Some people were saying it's now the fastest Scarfer, outspeeding Munkidori, which again comes back to the first point of not letting the meta adapt. Scarf Munkidori being the staple scarfer shouldn't be treated like a pillar that defines NU, it's just a metagame development that should be allowed the freedom to change. Faster scarfers than Terrakion are perfectly viable and have been used successfully in high-level tour games. There's also sufficient strong priority users and defense-boosting sweepers in the tier, that make dealing with Terrakion much easier in practice.

The metagame already has a lot more oppressive elements, especially terrain sweepers, that have far more impact in dictating game outcome and are far more oppressive in how they can be responded to, yet techs and structures have developed to play around them without too much bending over backwards. I see the same thing happening with Terrakion in a few weeks.

Used a 5-minute Terrain team to get reqs: https://pokepast.es/89cfd9cf4c65d435
And honestly, in comparison with existing elements in the tier (terrain, webs, Munki, etc.), Terrakion felt underwhelming in most cases.

Firmly voting Do Not Ban

-1 252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tauros-Paldea-Aqua: 187-222 (64.2 - 76.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

You are not switching ts in bro.

 

[Mushfiq]

-1 252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tauros-Paldea-Aqua: 187-222 (64.2 - 76.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

You are not switching ts in bro.

You can come in once and take it out/force it out with Aqua Jet. That's a good enough check given WaterBull is a breaker, not a wall or defensive pivot. It's even comfortably living 2 CCs from non-CB Terrakion when rocks are not up
-1 252 Atk Terrakion Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tauros-Paldea-Aqua: 126-148 (43.2 - 50.8%) -- 4.7% chance to 2HKO

 

[5MGMatthew5]

You can come in once and take it out/force it out with Aqua Jet. That's a good enough check given WaterBull is a breaker, not a wall or defensive pivot. It's even comfortably living 2 CCs from non-CB Terrakion when rocks are not up
-1 252 Atk Terrakion Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tauros-Paldea-Aqua: 126-148 (43.2 - 50.8%) -- 4.7% chance to 2HKO

"comfortable" is a generous word here

 

[Yech]

You can come in once and take it out/force it out with Aqua Jet. That's a good enough check given WaterBull is a breaker, not a wall or defensive pivot. It's even comfortably living 2 CCs from non-CB Terrakion when rocks are not up
-1 252 Atk Terrakion Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tauros-Paldea-Aqua: 126-148 (43.2 - 50.8%) -- 4.7% chance to 2HKO

I thought Clear Amulet was very popular on non-choiced Terrakion sets like swords dance, this really is only relevant to like choice scarf or sash lead. Ladder uses Life Orb now and again but with webs and intimidate being common, I see Clear Amulet more than anything other than Choice Band.

 

[MethMaster4546]

The only thing Terrakion forces you to do is think your switches through when it comes in, due to having strong STABs with good neutral coverage. In practice, plenty of mons comfortably tank hits and cripple it/knock it out in return. Intimidate WaterBull is very common and splashable, and there are enough faster options for revenge killing (Torn, Barra, Inteleon, Raikou, Scarfers, Cincinno).

Waterbull cant switch on band sets just straight up.

But also

252 SpA Tornadus Bleakwind Storm vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Terrakion: 174-205 (53.8 - 63.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO not revenging a full health terrak

252 SpA Raikou Scald vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Terrakion: 174-206 (53.8 - 63.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Not revenging a full hp terrak (burn chance tho ig?)

252 Atk Technician Cinccino Bullet Seed (4 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Terrakion: 288-344 (89.1 - 106.5%) -- approx. 14.8% chance to OHKO

Inconsistent at revenging terrak

The waters are good at revenging terrak yes, but this tier isnt exactly struggling to find water switch ins

And the scarfers all get outsped by scarf terrak which im sure is just as good but even most of the scarfers have only a roll

252 Atk Reckless Staraptor Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Terrakion: 243-286 (75.2 - 88.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Flygon Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Terrakion: 300-354 (92.8 - 109.5%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO

252 SpA Munkidori Psychic vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Terrakion: 320-380 (99 - 117.6%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO (this ones kinda silly but still a roll)

252 SpA Punk Rock Toxtricity Overdrive vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Terrakion: 169-199 (52.3 - 61.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

munki and flamigo are the only two i see on paper rn that actually outspeed and revenge

You get the point. Revenging is inconsistent against a non scarfed set and impossible against a scarf set unless you wanna run sum bullshit like scarf raikou or torn and tanking 2 hits from it is a very hard ask without burning a tera

 

[Stories]

Just finished getting reqs, I also used this team bricknermon linked because I didn't have any teams on hand. Cool team 5MGMatthew5

https://pokepast.es/b30e0abe0077f6dc

Speaking about Terrakion, I didn't really understand the decision to suspect test it, even as someone inside the council chat. Terrakion seemed egregiously OP and shouldn't have ever bared its face in the tier.

However through playing with it on ladder, I honestly didn't find it that overwhelming. I was using a Swords Dance set with Loaded Dice + Rock Blast and although it could often pick up KOs through sheer strength, its typing rarely allowed it to set up Swords Dance and it was pretty easily revenge-KOd. I'm unsure of Choice Band damage calcs off the top of my head but Swords Dance sets had a few reasonable midgrounds (not Palossand lol) like Slowbro-G, Gligar, and making smart pivots to bait Close Combat which is fairly easy to do. I also found that even after a Swords Dance, Terrakion would fail to pick up certain OHKOs against the likes of Vaporeon, Tsareena, and Uxie (not to mention Gligar and Slowbro-G again because they're dedicated physical walls) although from my calculations, Life Orb sets end up netting the necessary OHKOs that Loaded Dice misses out on.

Despite all this, I don't particularly want to unban Terrakion. 27 games on the ladder doesn't paint the full picture of its potential effects on the metagame and of course "you're not supposed to speculate on future metagames when banning something" but frankly nothing of value is lost by banning the ox, especially in the midst of SCL.

Choice Band sets are probably the key to breaking this mon, like I said before, I found Swords Dance sets unable to find many opportunities to setup without making hard reads due to its poor defensive typing. I see a lot of Choice Scarf discussion in the thread but honestly I don't really see that set being problematic lol, maybe I'm wrong.

Perhaps I will play more games and maybe my opinion will change, but for now I'm pretty on-the-fence but definitely leaning towards keeping Terrakion banned if anything.

 

[LessThanThreeMan]

Just finished a reqs run and I wanted to share my thoughts on publ cow (yes it was publ for a moment which is crazy to say, soon to be nubl cow most likely.) So terrak has some serious stats. It is very strong, has excellent dual stab coverage when stone edge hits, has respectable bulk, and it is really fast. I think the biggest problem is having all of this offensive potential while also being one of the fastest mons in the tier. Being this fast limits the possible revenge killers to scarfers and things like kilo, intel, and skewda. Kilo is only doing like 30% with the bulky boots spread (assuming you aren't hitting it with a terablast of some kind), and the waters aren't too have to blank with a teammate or trade tera for. Scarf options to revenge kill are things like munki and scarf migo which you can live the hit from and kill them with tera usually. Often i would SD on a forced switch, then tera on their revenge killer to take that out as well. Defensive counterplay exists but it doesn't seem too difficult to get things in range either (calcs below.) All in all I don't think terrak is the most broken thing that has ever been in the tier, but I do think it is a bit too much still and I plan on voting ban. The crazy good offensive potential, easy enough time getting an SD up, speed, and relative difficulty to revenge kill cleanly is just a bit too much for the current NU. The best check is probably gligar which helps but is susceptible to being worn down, and I paired it with mons to lure it in and didn't have too many issues. Palossand and Golurk are also good stops but those aren't a part of the current meta so I wouldn't put too much consideration there. If terrak forces these otherwise not good mons into the tier, thats a sign terrak isn't healthy anyways. Not to mention all 3 can be caught with terablast water or ice.

I forgot to mention other sets as well, and choice band is crazy good hit and run attacker. Scarf sets don't really exist but being faster than opposing scarf munki is huge, even if it is less good overall as a scarfer.

Free Teams

Fight Spam BO (lure gligar with croak)
Terrak Webs
Fly Spam Cinc HO

Relevant Calcs

Defensive Checks
+2 252 Atk Terrakion Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Bellibolt: 332-392 (78.6 - 92.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 Atk Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Houndstone: 234-276 (67.2 - 79.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 Atk Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Houndstone: 325-384 (114 - 134.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 Atk Terrakion Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Swampert: 426-502 (105.4 - 124.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 Atk Terrakion Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Vaporeon: 382-451 (82.3 - 97.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
*+2 252 Atk Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 200+ Def Eviolite Gligar: 159-187 (47.6 - 55.9%) -- 82.4% chance to 2HKO
*+2 252 Atk Terrakion Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Palossand: 147-173 (39.3 - 46.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+2 252 Atk Terrakion Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Golurk: 260-306 (81.5 - 95.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Revenge Killers
96 SpA Kilowattrel Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Terrakion: 121-144 (37.4 - 44.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Tornadus Bleakwind Storm vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Terrakion: 174-205 (53.8 - 63.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Flamigo Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Terrakion: 392-464 (121.3 - 143.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Flamigo Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tera Flying Terrakion: 98-116 (30.3 - 35.9%) -- 41.1% chance to 3HKO
252 Atk Flamigo Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tera Flying Terrakion: 196-232 (60.6 - 71.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Munkidori Psychic vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Terrakion: 320-380 (99 - 117.6%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Munkidori Psychic vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Tera Steel Terrakion: 80-95 (24.7 - 29.4%) -- 99.9% chance to 4HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Barraskewda Liquidation vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tera Flying Terrakion: 219-258 (67.8 - 79.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Inteleon Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Tera Flying Terrakion: 285-336 (88.2 - 104%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Ribombee Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Terrakion: 272-324 (84.2 - 100.3%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO

 

[5MGMatthew5]

Cool team @5MGMatthew5

thank you

 

[Elias PSY]

While Terrakion seem scary on paper,i never find it threatening on practice. He doesn't carry any defensive utility with a poor defensive typing and bunch of common weakness which make it hard to hit the field at first.
Justified doesn't help when every Knock user can hit it super effectively (or cripple it in case of Incineroar).SD sets can easily get chipped when they setup and revenge killed later with faster threats (who all carry SE coverage bar kilowattrel but hurricane still does a lot) or the omnipresent scarfs munki/migo so they get 1 kill and get sacked later.He's often seen on Webs to alleviate this issue but still has to deal with fast threats if they run boots,priority in Aqua-Jet and removals denying webs before he can get going.
Band has been most consistent none of his moves are spammable with commons immunities like Flygon and Flamigo for Earthquake,Ghost-types in case of CC while Stone Edge has a lot of resists and giving free turns on an offense meta isn't the best.
Overall Terrakion feel like a faster Flamigo but much more exploitable.
I voted to keep it NU during last slate and still think today that he is manageable and can be freed.