Metagame NP: Stage 2 - Welcome and Goodbye (Hoopa Ban post #45)

[Aawin]

Echoing Rabia a bit here and looking at some fellas that dropped that I think are going to be very potent to the point where they should be banned. Granted this is all somewhat speculative but based on initial looks, I'm p confident these are all stupid

- Hoopa is ungodly strong with 150 base special attack and access to a pretty deep movepool. Nasty Plot 3A with dual STAB (Psyshock for Chansey/Blissey) + Focus Blast feels ideal, otherwise you're dicked by Umbreon and other shitters. However, I think Tera Blast with Tera Fairy for every Dark type (Umbreon, Sableye, and Grimmsnarl all in one slot without having to rely on FB accuracy) is also cute. Additionally, I think Hoopa can make use of all 3 choice items and bring immediate power to the table. Even CB has big coverage options such as Knock Off and Drain Punch to target potential switches. Frankly, I don't think this is a balanced mon on paper and would love to see it banned sooner rather than later.

- How did we get this LMFAO. Tornadus, similarly to Hoopa, has a high attack and special attack stat which allows for sets to be ran on both sides of the spectrum. I believe Nasty Plot Torn will be the go-to set with its new stab move of Bleakwind Storm (100 BP, 80% accuracy) being a more reliable STAB option in comparison to Hurricane with regards to accuracy. Tornadus also retained a majority, if not all, of its coverage on the special side (don't quote me on this). Powerful coverage options such as Focus Blast, Heat Wave, Sludge Bomb, and Grass Knot target the potential answers for Tornadus, which creates a limited amount of answers when coupled with the very balanced and definitely not broken mechanic of Tera. Physical sets with Prankster Bulk Up + Rest with Chesto Berry Acrobatics will be a pain to revenge (SHOUTOUTS TERA ONCE AGAIN) and can snowball through teams. 4th move Crunch allows Tornadus to hit Rotom specifically, as well as do neutral damage to the likes of Eelektross and Jolteon. Tornadus also has Prankster Taunt, the ability to pivot in the face of unfavorable matchups, and also has a bit of item diversity (though running a choiced item or non-HDB item on a rocks weak mon is kinda ass). For more niche / experimental sets, Tornadus can also set weather! Phantomistix is shitting himself. I think there's like a 2% chance this is balanced.

- This is probably the least egregious case of being broken, but this pokemon looks kinda dumb on paper (I said this last gen too and I was kinda wrong so who knows). Similarly to the above, this pokemon has an insanely large pool in all three (physical special status) facets and has multiple ways to make progress. Firstly, I think (like Tornadus), this guy can run Bulk Up + Rest pretty easily and snowball with relative ease. Due to its high offensive stats, I think CB is going to be a great progress maker in a tier that doesn't really have a ton to deal with its dual STABS. Similarly, with Tera boosting the BP of moves under 60 BP to 60, I think special Grimmsnarl also has a nice surprise factor with Draining Kiss (it has Dazzling Gleam too but DKiss is funnier). Grimmsnarl also has pivoting with Parting Shot, Taunt, Trick, Thunder Wave, and really anything else it could really want at its disposal outside of Power Whip. Like I said, this mon isn't inherently broken, but if it doesn't get banned, I think it will be really fucking good.

- Him. This mon kinda goes federal ngl but it feels okay-ish? We have a couple mons with Intimidate and ways to force damage onto Tauros such as hazards and Rocky Helmet, which sounds okay, but is it? Tauros has a crazy solid damage output, as well as a high speed tier at 110, which allows it to outspeed mons that Pauros can't. This pokemon definitely should be on the radar though, and I'm curious to see how it pans out.

To respond to something posted here,

as it lacks Ghost-type coverage and can be pivoted around somewhat with Pokemon like Sandaconda and Intimidate Qwilfish

I agree with the pivoting portion of this, however Tauros still has one (1) option to hit Ghosts- Assurance. While yes, it's not boosted by Sheer Force like Throat Chop (ergo forcing it to take LO chip), its doubled by Stealth Rock damage. This means a mon like Rotom offensively switching in to gain momentum / force a switch drops. Might be worth some exploration, but realistically it may be better to use a more consistent option neutrally.

There's a lot to discuss in this new meta- I still think pokemon like Frosmoth deserve to be Old Yeller'd as well- but I'm looking forward to seeing how balance and other structures pan out. We now have auto-Snow with new drop plus Frosmoth, , , and every other shithead to become dangerous. We also got new toys for bulkier / stall teams in and , offensive utility in and , and could possibly see the christening of Electric Terrain offense with and


edit- It has come to my attention we also got Mesprit. I think it'll be broken asw but I'll make a future post on that

 

[Aawin]

If this means cetitan is out of BL, time for another ban speedrun I guess. If not though, please keep cetitan in BL where it is for the time being, that thing is demonic by NU standards

Cetitan was previously banned by NU when it initially dropped here way back when, meaning Cetitan is not legal on NU ladder (thankfully).

 

[Stories]

Wyrdeer has some neat utility in this meta, with Tera Fairy being naturally good coverage with Psychic and allowing it to wall the likes of Cacturne and Appletun with Sap Sipper. Intimidate also has some nice utility but most importantly, Wyrdeer's defensive profile allows it to take on Hoopa's STAB combination. I still think Hoopa is broken but having some kind of answer to it in the meantime is quite nice. I've used these two sets to some decent success so far.

Assault Vest

Wyrdeer @ Assault Vest
Ability: Intimidate
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 252 HP / 16 Atk / 64 SpD / 176 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Body Slam
- Earthquake
- Megahorn
- Psyshield Bash

252 SpA Rotom Volt Switch vs. 252 HP / 64 SpD Assault Vest Wyrdeer: 73-87 (17.8 - 21.2%) -- possible 5HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Mega Launcher Clawitzer Water Pulse vs. 252 HP / 64 SpD Assault Vest Wyrdeer: 162-192 (39.5 - 46.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Tornadus Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 64 SpD Assault Vest Wyrdeer: 136-162 (33.1 - 39.5%) -- 100% chance to 3HKO

Choice Specs

Wyrdeer @ Choice Specs
Ability: Intimidate
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Tera Blast
- Psychic
- Shadow Ball
- Trick

252+ SpA Choice Specs Wyrdeer Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Hoopa: 264-312 (87.7 - 103.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Choice Specs Wyrdeer Psychic vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Scyther: 249-294 (88.6 - 104.6%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Tera Fairy Wyrdeer Tera Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Umbreon: 222-264 (56.3 - 67%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Wyrdeer Tera Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Qwilfish-Hisui: 127-151 (38 - 45.2%) -- 6.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

 

[Phantomistix]

3rd mitten gang member here to give my thoughts abt some of the new toys we got, I forgot to save replays so I will redirect yall to Rabia's newest vid featuring 3 of the drops

I think this is the most obvious case of return to sender. In a meta where the only steel is sliggoo-h (which still folds), CM + mystical power + dkiss + stored power with tera fairy is near unstoppable, especially with terrain seeds to boost its physical defense. Beyond that broken set, it can also run specs/scarf to break teams and has access to uturn to further enable those sets.

Similar to Mesprit, grimm can run a variety of sets and find success with all of them, but there is one in particular that is beyond broken, BU resto chesto with sucker and spirit break. In a lot of matchups, you can simply lead with it and start setting up, forcing opponents to use their tera or trade a few mons to chip you down and kill you. Being able to tera steel to avoid poison and fairy moves and sucker to kill faster threats along with its extremely strong base 120 attack makes grimmsnarl a freight train waiting to run enemies over. It is very easy to position to allow it to set up and I think its the most broken mon in the tier at this moment.

Specs goes brazy, BU resto chesto goes brazy, what else do you need? Amazon prime next day delivery this thing to NUBL

This thing was broken back when we had an actual steel in Copperajah and Passimian to revenge it, send it back with the others

An extremely broken mon on paper, but one I think the meta isn't very kind to. All I've seen people run is choice/LO sets, which are strong given its blessed statline both physically and specially, but Rabia mentioned that they think sub might be its best set, which makes sense when combined with tera fighting or fairy. I do think a quickban is warranted especially considering the timing of the drops and NU open finals and NUPL playoffs tomorrow, and a suspect back into the tier to determine if it has a place in NU.

Some have expressed opinions that it is broken on its own without hail, and while I do think it will be a very strong mon, maybe landing in a strong A+ ranking, I haven't seen enough to determine if I think its bannable.

Spikestack + Tauros ladder farming tool is back. 2HKOs conda with minor chip and has a very solid speed tier + trailblaze. I think qb into suspect back is the best option.

This mon is bad, even on electric terrain it isnt worth running lol, just stick to jolteon and rotom.

A good addition to the tier, adds another spiker and a solid lead option for HO.

Another good addition to the tier, will be solid both as a stalling option and as a stallbreaker with taunt/encore/disable/status.

To quote Rabia, this is disney plus chansey. In a meta with a ton of breakers and where momentum and positioning is vital, this and its younger sibling are both momentum sinkholes and are not worth using on most structures.

 

[Meri Berry]

Due to NUPL's semifinals coming out VERY soon, I don't have a lot of time to write about this, but we held a quickban slate for 5 Pokemon that just dropped to the NU tier very recently. These Pokemon, listed above, were the following:

• Tornadus-I
• Kanto Tauros
• Mesprit
• Hoopa
• Frosmoth

Both Finchinator and Pokeslice were unable to vote due to the rapid turnaround of this vote, meaning that a supermajority of 5/7 was needed to reach a Ban vote. Therefore, both Tornadus-I and Frosmoth are banned from the tier effective immediately. (Pinging Kris Marty)

Tornadus-I is relatively self explanatory, offering a ridiculous amount of offensive pressure from both the physical and special side, all while sporting a massive 111 speed which outspeeds most unboosted Pokemon in the tier. Everything but Electric-types get blown away by the coverage it has, and with both Tera and its shocking offensive stats, those become trivial relatively quickly. Special sets are the most obvious offender, but lots of people have theorized that Acrobatics Bulk Up sets are even more potent than the traditional sets we usually see on Tornadus. I don't think anyone is surprised to see this thing go.

Our Ice-resist issue actually got worse this shift, with Vaporeon rising up to RU. Its very easy to see why this thing might be broken given our complete lack of Steel-types, alongside the fact that Tera makes up for its awful typing to give it good defensive stats on top of a ridiculous ability in Ice Scales that allows it to often set up twice. There is a very minor chance that this Pokemon ends up okay in the tier, but when you look at the tier's Ice Beam resists, its easy to see why this might quickly get the axe.

I'll touch a little on the other Pokemon that we've had on our radar, going over why they were looked at and potentially why people might not see an issue with them.

Tauros is another really fast breaker that has very few checks. Even though it lost Throat Chop, Life Orb + Sheer Force sets are still something to be reckoned with, and with Rock Slide its coverage isn't that far off. This truly is a Pokemon where you either need a definitive check or to get every turn right, and although the meta might be more offensive now with the new additions to the tier, its something that will need to be watched out for in this new meta.

The most scary Mesprit sets are probably setup sweeper sets that take advantage of Tera Fairy to become a wincon. Choice Scarf and Choice Specs are both potent, but Dark-types are very prevalent in the tier and threaten to wall any attempts to use STAB. I believe that the Choiced sets will be a healthy addition to the tier, but with the new move Mystical Power to raise its Special Attack while attacking and Tera being an option, setup sets look like they might be very scary indeed.

How is this guy down here? The 150 Special Attack monster of a Pokemon has fallen all the way down to NU, which is surprisingly well equipped to handle its STABs. There's more good Dark- and Normal-type Pokemon than there have been in most generations, meaning that Hoopa's power will likely come down to both prediction and sheer power. Choice Specs and Nasty Plot sets are undeniably scary, but with Hoopa having common 4x weaknesses and 70 base speed, its usually not going to live many attacks. Choice Scarf sets are also potent, but the speed tier isn't fantastic, with even unboosted Jolteon outspeeding it. This Pokemon will be a very interesting topic of discussion over the next week: is something with 150 Special Attack really balanced in current NU?

 

[lolbro]

This mon is really good. It's coverage matches up really well with a lot of our high vr mons, so it is easily able to use tera to pick up at least a trade vs faster mons and it has relatively good power with +SpA nature that it's not too passive as to let it get set-up on. It's free aurora veil at zero cost now; unlike in previous generations where you had to build fully around hail to best use aurora veil, now you can just slap this thing on a balance team as a fat(ish) grass and remove some pressure on your team because you take half damage. SD sets have some merit now that it has a non-ice shard physical stab, so it can even function as a breaker/cleaner. Specs/Scarf could see usage but I personally would rather just use AVeil on this and a stronger breaker. I think it ends up as a top tier A+ mon or even maybe to S- if Snow teams are strong enough.

 

[Mugenman88]

Bombirdier has some real competition and damn is it annoying for it.



Froslass @ Focus Sash
Ability: Cursed Body
Tera Type: Dark
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Ice Beam
- Spikes
- Taunt
- Destiny Bond

Your bread and butter HO lead, with a blazing speed tier, a strong Ice Beam, and Taunt she really can stand in the way of our resident HO birb setting up rocks, even completely stopping it if the Froslass user reads the birb user on the SR. Tera Dark is so you can't get prankster taunted by Grimmsnarl, who is another new drop that I think is gonna be a common lead as well for screen stackers. On top of Destiny Bond which will nearly guarantee a trade thanks to Taunt and I think she's gonna be a menace of a lead. Bonus points for also being great into Sandaconda, Drifblim, and Scyther as well to prevent their SR and Defogs respectively. I'm expecting great things outta this gal!

 

[worst player in BR]

ok, but, RAGING BULL k-tauros don't make grimmsnarl useless?
u do a TON of damage and remove screens, that's awesome!

Jolly Sheer Force Life Orb:
252 Atk Life Orb Tauros Raging Bull vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Grimmsnarl: 226-266 (57.3 - 67.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (if grimms max spdef max hp)
Jolly Sheer Force Clear Amulet (no party and no shots)
252 Atk Tauros Raging Bull vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Grimmsnarl: 174-205 (44.1 - 52%) -- 14.8% chance to 2HKO

Basically Clear Amulet Tauros ignores parting shot and screens (AND SPIRIT BREAK.) do half of grimmsnarl health and disables his screens.
INTIMIDATE IS PROBABLY BETTER FOR UTILITY*

a post for when screens dominates the meta (pls no) or for the stall fans wanting to destroy typical "screens hyper offensive team"

sorry for possible errors my english sucks :( (open for suggestions about how make this more useful lmao)

 

[plznostep]

My Thoughts on Drops!

I will not be talking about all drops, just ones i think are revelant enough to be talked about.


This thing is super strong, its got amazing special bulk and special attack for one. The main flaws with this Pokemon is that the STABs are kinda abusable, for one they are stopped by Dark-types which we have no shortage of at all and its pretty slow at base 70. That doesn't stop it from being broken in my opinion though. It has fantastic coverage with great terastallization options, its speed is just enough to get by, outspeeding some pretty hard hitting revelant threats such as Clawitizer, and with bulk supporting how hard this mon hits, i can't see it staying sadly.


I'm more conflicted with Mespirit. This mon also has some very good defenses and a great ability in Levitate, allowing it to take advantage of Pokemon like Sandaconda pretty nicely. The new move Mystical Power is a very good move and fits in quite well with its Stored Power sets, which seems pretty broken at the moment. It also has access to some good utility moves like rocks and trick, and a pivotting option in U-turn, making choiced sets pretty effective in my opinion. All around very solid, only time will tell if it stays though.

I think that just about sums up how good Grimmsnarl's STABS are for the tier. Tinkatuff is the only Pokemon who can resist them both, so you'll have to rely on sheer bulk if you want to beat Grimmsnarl. Easier said then done with a 120 Atk stat and a good boosting move in Bulk Up, allowing it to boost that otherwise poor physical bulk instantly before it takes a hit thanks to Prankster. Speaking of its bulk, Grimmsnarl has pretty nice bulk with a typing that makes it resist some crucial types such as Dark and Ghost while being immune to Psychic and Prankster, making Sableye almost useless and unable to stop its setup. You can also go special if you wish using Draining Kiss, but Bulk Up seems better. Utility also exists, with a great pivotting move in Prankster Parting Shot along with Fairy STAB to threaten Dark-types that want to block Prankster. Overall, very good at the moment and should not be underestimated.


Very good, boasting amazing offensive stats and decent physical bulk that's able to take a hit if you need to. Sheer Force gives it some much needed power for its Body Slam (sadly Raging Bull isn't boosted) which would overwise just be okay STAB and its coverage is superb, with Earthquake and Close Combat. It can struggle with Ghost-types however, but its not the worst if you are running Assurance which can do a lot of damage to Pokemon such as Rotom, and can even OHKO on the switch with rocks up due to how Assurance works. It's a lovely pair with Spikes as always, and might even be too much for the tier to handle when abusing them. We'll see.


One of my personal favourites. Access to Knock Off, Recover, Encore and Will o Wisp alongside an excellent ability in Prankster, allowing Sableye to force out physical attackers instantly with a burn and an amazing Dark/Ghost typing which lets it deal with our resident Fighting and Normal-types excellently, especially with Tauros running around. It also allows it to check Psychic-types such as Bruxish. Encore is also just amazing at stopping setup attempts, as your opponent will have to keep it in mind if they want to setup and also can be nice to lock a Psychic-type into a Psychic move on a pivot, forcing them to switch where you can then Knock Off. We all know how good Knock Off is as well, getting rid of an item is just so powerful. Sableye will always be making progress against an opponent and that makes it very valuable in my opinion.


Alright. i guess. Good STAB's and good coverage alongside it. 95 isn't that bad so it hits decently hard with access to boosting moves in Nasty Plot. It can struggle to actually get a plot off though since its defensive stats are pretty poor however. On Electric Terrain you have yourself a pretty fast Pokemon able to clean lategame i guess, but i'm not all too impressed really.


Not bad either, good STABS, and its bulk its superb, especially that special bulk. The typing is not great defensively given its an Ice-type, but it can give it switch-ins on Pokemon such as Lurantis at least. That same typing is also great offensively here, as we do not have many good Steel-types, and the ones we do have such as Magneton are a tad bit frail. Sliggoo-h is the only one with bulk on it really. Access to a pivotting move is great as well for a bulky offensive pivot and Roost means it will also stay around. Overall, better then I thought.



Very good. Typing is bleh, but access to Aurora Veil and the Snow buff makes its bulk great, meaning it will be able to get Aurora Veil off to support it's teammates with screens, such as Mesprit or Grimmsnarl. It also can be pretty scary to switch into; Ice is just such a good offensive typing here, so those STAB Blizzards can be super hard to switch into, and on the physical side it can hit hard too with Swords Dance, which also has priority Ice Shard, which with Tera Ice can even KO fast Pokemon such as Jolteon at +2. Snow also helps Pokemon such as Glaceon set up by making its superb physical bulk even better and giving it Ice Body recovery while also activating Beartic's Slush Rush ability, allowing it to outspeed Pokemon such as Scarf Medicham and Hoopa while also improving its bulk. Overall, very good.


Not really much to say here, it's just better Chansey. Calm Mind is better because Blissey has an actual SpA stat but its still a momentum sink and a passive blob most times, think of it as just Chansey but slightly better. The only significant difference is its able to hold Heavy Duty Boots so its harder to pressure via hazards.


Stall got better now i guess. Otherwise its Ditto; not really needed right now.



​

 

[Stories]

My reasoning for only voting ban on Frosmoth and Tornadus is that I think they are clearly a cut above others that may still be potentially broken like Hoopa, Mesprit, and Tauros. I do think that banning those two first will allow for more open development against the latter three though, and they haven't been as overwhelming in practice as they seem on paper.


After playing more and giving more thought to it, I'm more convinced Hoopa is broken just by sheer set diversity and the fact that absolutely nothing consistently checks multiple sets, and hardly anything even checks one particular set. Substitute 3 Attacks, Assault Vest, Choice Scarf and Specs, and other weird tech options like Power Herb + Magician and Destiny Bond sets make this thing a nightmare to prepare for in the teambuilder, but even more of a menace at team preview, because scouting the set it can be could spell disaster for practically any Pokemon in the tier if you guess wrong. I do think if Hoopa only had one or two viable sets it would maybe be fine, and that's a big maybe because even Choice Specs and Assault Vest alone are quite difficult to manage, but because Hoopa is a Swiss Army Knife of offensive prowess I will more than likely vote to ban it on the next chance I get.


We finally got the OG Tauros form back and my main thought when both using and playing against it is that it feels exactly the same as it did in SSNU; On paper Tauros has pretty much no long-term counterplay because of its sheer power, speed, and serviceable defense, BUT (big but) Tauros is vulnerable to EVERY form of chip damage ever. Adverse contact effects, all forms of status, no notable resistances by virtue of being a Normal-type, weak to all hazards and pretty much always uses Life Orb. Tauros will often faint whether it's even directly attacked or not. Additionally glass-cannon archetype Pokemon are inherently weaker in a Tera meta, because anything can suddenly turn the tables and tank a hit and retaliate with an OHKO. Tauros also lost Throat Chop, making it have a slightly harder time against Ghost-types in a gen where anything can become a Ghost-type. I think Tauros is still an amazing wallbreaker, but I'm not convinced of it being anywhere near broken yet. That may be subject to change in the future but I see enough splashable counterplay in the likes of Sandaconda, Sableye, and Qwilfish to make Tauros manageable for now.


Honestly I think Mystical Power sucks. It's barely stronger than just 2 raw Psychics and the accuracy comes into play about as often as a so-called "90%" accurate move would (see Play Rough). additionally it's initial low BP on what to me is an offensive Pokemon seems counter-intuitive and I would much rather throw out a more powerful move and then pivot out as a check comes in. Mesprit's offensive coverage and utility is quite good, but the Pokemon overall suffers a bit from being too well-rounded sometimes. I wouldn't be shocked if eventually somebody sculpted such a malleable Pokemon into something gamebreaking and it ends up being too broken, but I've seen a couple different unique sets already and none of them really gave me the impression of something that needed to be banned yet.


I think Abomasnow enables multiple degenerate playstyles by existing, and I think Abomasnow itself is an incredibly dumb breaker with very little counterplay depending on the set. I'm sure this is an uncommon opinion but I've always thought much higher of both Snow / Hail and Screens (even without Light Clay) more than the average player, and Abomasnow's natural bulk coupled with high BP moves of perfect coverage makes this Pokemon an absolute nuisance to deal with. Snow isn't nearly as potent as it could be due to Beartic's terrible Speed but Tera and the Snow defense boost makes it quite harder to take out than you would think. Abomasnow is something I would happily remove from the tier if it was my decision.


I have hardly seen this used competently yet nor have I used it myself but I do expect this to be completely busted with a combination of it's offensive prowess and Bulk Up RestTalk sets with Tera. I don't have much to say about it yet but it looks very degenerate and I'm definitely excited to use it and not looking forward to play against it myself.

 

[Punchshroom]

Man I've been in the lab cooking some sets so far with some of the new drops, and it was a ton of fun.

Hoopa @ Leftovers
Ability: Magician
Tera Type: Fighting
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Substitute
- Nasty Plot
- Shadow Ball
- Focus Blast

We already know Hoopa is a monster, but SubNP Hoopa manages to be even more devious in its utter evisceration of bulky cores. The combination of Substitute and Tera Fighting lets Hoopa stuff out so much of its defensive counterplay, such as Umbreon/Blissey Thunder Wave, Dark STAB like Foul Play Umbreon/Crunch Hisuian Qwilfish/Knock Off Bombirder, Sucker Punch attempts, etc., all while being nearly impossible to defend against, especially if you've inadvertently given it a free turn as a result of Hoopa's Sub and/or Tera. Between this set and others like Choice Specs, Sub 3 attacks, or even Desting Bond, this mon just exerts a ludicrous amount of pressure on literally every slower Pokemon in the format, reminiscent of NU Pangoro in the past except Hoopa has more than enough special bulk to trade blows against faster special threats not using Shadow Ball. Get this thing out of NU lol.

Tauros @ Life Orb
Ability: Sheer Force
Tera Type: Dark
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Body Slam
- Rock Slide
- Substitute
- Endeavor

I've been fiddling around with Tauros sets, including standard coverage like Earthquake or Close Combat to hit the few remaining Steels like Hisuian Sliggoo and Magneton, as well as Ice Beam for a slightly harder hit on Sandaconda that doesn't make contact, but I decided to try this more unorthodox set that Tauros users are still familiar with. SubEndeavor is a set Tauros has used since like Gen 5 to punish walls that want to wear down Tauros passively, and is especially appealing now due to the tier's unusual lack of Rock-types that typically complicate its 2-move coverage. I went with Rock Slide for the most well-rounded coverage against Ghosts like Drifblim, Rotom, and Haunter that doesn't require finnicky switch-ins & doesn't incur Life Orb recoil, and its coverage is also nice in general for threatening the numerous Flying-types of the tier, like Scyther, Bombirdier, Oricorio, Braviary, etc., to force switches and set up the Sub Endeavor combo. As we know, Life Orb recoil makes each use of Endeavor stronger than the last, and Sheer Force allows you to make the killing blow without fainting yourself, a tried-and-true combo. I haven't decided on the optimal Tera type yet, but I went with Dark for now to fend off Sableye which otherwise stuffs every other Tauros variant, as well as allow Tauros's Sub to survive Umbreon's Foul Play over 80% of the time.

Froslass @ Focus Sash
Ability: Cursed Body
Tera Type: Ground
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Spikes
- Shadow Ball
- Icy Wind
- Will-O-Wisp / Reflect

Froslass is absolutely NU's best offensive Spiker (not much competition admittedly) due to its matchup against the tier's Defoggers and Spinner(s), and I doubt it's going to face worthy competition for that role even with DLCs. In addition to the familiar Taunt + Destiny Bond + Ice Beam sets that already make it a hassle to stop, Froslass can easily deviate to improve other matchups while retaining its amazing Spiking efficiency. The combination of Icy Wind + Shadow Ball lets it easily anti-lead opposing Froslass, Shadow Ball 2HKOes Hattrem on switch-in, and Icy Wind is nice for thwarting faster mons, Choice Scarfers, or Speed-boosting attempts from the likes of Trailblaze Klawf that wish to anti-lead you. Will-O-Wisp is used to cripple the likes of lead Bombirdier and Klawf while also screwing over other physical mons in general, but if you dislike the accuracy, Reflect can be an option to guarantee the halving of physical moves in exchange for only being temporary. Despite only dealing half damage, there is the potential of high roll Rock Blast from Klawf/Bombirdier to screw you over; this is where the Tera comes in. Tera Ground not only ensures that Froslass won't be KOed by Rock Blast, it also grants immunity to Hattrem's Nuzzle. It has the bonus effect of stuffing faster Volt Switches from Jolteon/Scarf Rotom which you can punish with Icy Wind, though this tactic isn't highly recommended since they may opt to Shadow Ball you anyway, in which case you can also punish with Icy Wind without the need to Tera.

Articuno @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Pressure
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Ice Beam
- U-turn
- Roost
- Freeze-Dry / Haze / Ancient Power

If this thing learned any Dark/Ghost moves at all, it would be deadass the best Hoopa check in the tier. Ahem, anyway: here we have an unprecedented situation in NU where the tier's Ice resists are so sparse that for the first time in NU's history, Freeze-Dry is not actually preferred over spamming Ice Beam. Remember how Eelektross can get away with harassing the large majority of the tier with Discharge + U-turn? Articuno can do much the same with Ice Beam + U-turn, except it has reliable recovery in Roost to do that for longer, has a better speed tier, and can afford all the offensive speed investment it wants since its natural bulk is already so good on its own. Oh, and you can still afford Freeze-Dry on top of all that if you want. Honestly the only other coverage I actually considered on this thing is not Hurricane, but Ancient Power, and this is almost solely to 2HKO other offensive Cunos (hitting Fire-types is merely a bonus in comparison). This thing is an underrated threat with its constant upkeep of Ice Beam spam, do not sleep on it. With that said, Haze is probably the better move on that last slot to deal with out-of-control bulky Calm Mind or Bulk Up setup sweepers.

: I find Wyrdeer to clash really heavily with Farigiraf; Farig gets most of Wyrdeer's tools like its typing, Sap Sipper, and much of its movepool like Agility and Stored Power, except Farig also has access to things like Nasty Plot and Dazzling Gleam while having better bulk and SpA, all for a negligible drop in Speed. I mean I guess Wyrdeer has Intimidate to prop up its Calm Mind + Stored Power set better, but Farig has access to Armor Tail which is not telegraphed unlike Intimidate, meaning the opponent may be uneasy to Sucker Punch it. I find the only set that Wyrdeer can pull off that isn't heavily contested by Farigiraf involves its physical movepool; Megahorn is actually a notable tool to pressure Umbreon and Appletun with, Wyrdeer's higher Atk lets it take advantage of Body Slam and Earthquake a bit better, and Psyshield Bash is a decent move to synergize with Assault Vest which you're likely gonna put on this thing. It can fend off Hoopa decently enough (for the tier's standards) with this set while having servicable corebreaking ability, so it's not too shabby, but other Wyrdeer sets like Specs or boosting just feel like a slightly less efficient Farigiraf.

: This thing actually has solid potential. Stealth Rock + Ice Beam is a pretty solid combo in terms of the hazards matchup game if Froslass has taught us anything, but instead of speed and Ice STAB, Mesprit instead uses its bulk to duke it out against the removers/opposing setters. Psychic/Psyshock+ U-turn is another decent combo it has, simulating Eelektross/Articuno in their corebreaking potential. It also has good utility with moves like Healing Wish, Encore, and Trick if you desire any of those, while Mesprit's U-turn access makes it a decent Choice item user. However, one set that I think may start putting Mesprit on other people's radars is a set I've already showcased earlier with Hoopa; Sub 2 attacks.

Mesprit @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe or 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Substitute
- Nasty Plot / Calm Mind
- Draining Kiss
- Psyshock / Stored Power

Yeah this set sounds about as much of a pain in the ass to fight as you first perceive. Prepare thyselves.

 

[PowerOfMemes]

This mon is just dumb. The only thing holding it back is Sucker Punch, its speed tier, and Focus Blast missing, but even those can be circumvented with Substitute sets, Terastalizing into Fairy or Fighting, and using Tera Blast. Assault Vest sets are also great letting you take on other Special Attakers like Jolteon or Eelektross. Tera Dark even lets you win the mirror match also powering up Knock Off. Specs burn a hole into anything that gets in their way and Scarf is decent speed control. Overall crazy good, kind of demands teams to have a dark type—which is good to have either way with all the psychics, ghosts, and darks in the tier, but it can even delete those. Wouldn’t be surprised seeing it banned eventually.


I’m actually disappointed in this thing. It’s not bad but no good, reliable way to hit ghosts (Assurance doesn’t count) and Sandaconda being the only ground in a tier full of electrics, having stealth rock, and rest + shed skin really stops Tauros in its tracks. I have experimented with an Ice Beam set but the issue is that you need it to be chipped beforehand. Sure, invest in special attack, but then that brings up the question when do you stop ruining your attack just to hurt Sandaconda a little more.


Just like in SS NU this dude can do choice band and it’s strong only issue is no Power Whip for Sandaconda—Ice Punch is good enough but Drain Punch lets you gets some health back. The real demon set this gen, though, is the Bulk Up one. You just set up on their physical wall—probably Sandaconda—or on the switch. Then right before you’d die, Prankster Chesto Resto to full and obliterate everything with Sucker Punch for speed and Spirit Break because nothing resists the combo in NU. Tera Steel to more easily set up, obviously. Haven’t seen many defensive sets—screens for ho works, though.


I believe this mon will be a good addition to the tier with Stealth Rock + the ability to take care of defoggers. Scarf sets are great speed control, Specs are okay but Hoopa does it better, and CM/NP sets after they set up can be a real hassle without priority. Mystical Power is just ass, in my opinion, on any set. It’s just too weak off the bat and the accuracy will lead to unneeded annoyance as it misses. Also the special attack raise is good but it’s still a wasted moveslot on CM/NP sets—but stored power/ice beam + d gleam + psyshock/ice beam.

Short Ones: (Raichu-A, Articuno, Wyrdeer)

I feel like this will just drop and we’ll forget about it.


This not having Defog makes me feel like it won’t be used too much—it would definitely be better if it had it.


Neutral feelings. I haven’t used it personally—don’t know where to start.

 

[Rabia]

NU council will be voting on the above four Pokemon this weekend! Make sure to post your thoughts on them, as well as any other Pokemon you believe is of significance ^^

 

[Melons-N-Soda]

NU council will be voting on the above four Pokemon this weekend! Make sure to post your thoughts on them, as well as any other Pokemon you believe is of significance ^^

I'm wondering, if Tauros gets banned from this, what's gonna happen with the PU suspect? I'm asking this here instead of SQA though this could be moved there.

 

[Mega-Pokebattlerz]

If Tauros gets banned from NU the PU suspect will just be cancelled

 

[plznostep]

Posting my thoughts on the Radar

I've already spoke a little bit about these Pokemon for first impressions, but with the 8 days of experiencing how these Pokemon influence the metagame, I believe I can give some more metagame knowledge on whether these Pokemon are healthy or not, so here we go!


BAN

Hoopa is not the kind of Pokemon that you'll see cleaning up and sweeping teams, but it is really good at forcing unfavourable trades with Substitute sets. You'll usually want to try and beat Hoopa with a Dark-type such as Bombirdier or Grimmsnarl, since nothing else can stand up to Hoopa usually. Our special walls are completely destroyed by this Pokemon, not even Blissey is able to stand up to it thanks to Psyshock and its sheer power when using items such as Choice Specs makes even neutral targets take overwhelming damage. But of course, Tera makes this interaction so much more complicated then it has to be.

Substitute sets with Tera can completely destroy these Pokémon, scouting them on the switch and then blasting them with a Tera Fairy, usually keeping it Substitute intact making it so hard to revenge kill and forcing a 2 to 1 trade most times. In addition, that special bulk means it can be rather obnoxious when trying to get a Pokemon to revenge kill it when combined with Tera. Pokemon like Rotom who would always usually be able to revenge kill a Hoopa all a sudden are doing 30% and then killed in return. So you usually have to use physical attackers, but Substitute sets are annoying for them, as most of these physical attackers are usually not able to take any of Hoopa's hits in the first place so they just die trying to break the substitute, meaning you have to sack another mon to try and break it. You really can't try and predict a Substitute instead of going immediately to your Dark-type either. If you are against Choice Specs, then you die anyway. The set versatility + its ability to make these unfavourable trades is way too much, which is why I would support a Ban.


BAN

Mesprit is also quite problematic in my opinion. It has an amazing defensive profile on both sides unlike Hoopa and a good speed stat of 80. It's ability also gives it a immunity to Ground and other residual damage, such as Spikes and Toxic Spikes, which can be particularly useful against Ground-types like Sandaconda and versus hazard stack teams. This makes Mesprit pretty hard to wear down and thus allows Mesprit to run items such as Leftovers without worrying about hazards chipping it down throughout a game. It also gives Mesprit opportunities to get in on the opposing team and set up using moves such as Nasty Plot or Calm Mind depending on whether you are offensive or defensive. But what pushes Mesprit over the edge in my opinion is Tera Fairy Draining Kiss sets.

When invested, Mesprit's bulk is very amazing, and it has a base SpA of 105 already meaning that it hits hard already even without much investment, so you can invest into some of its defensive capabilities, and then combine that with Draining Kiss, and this Pokemon has great sustain on it. This sustain allows Mesprit to sweep teams very effectively, as it has great bulk on all sides and is even able to boost its bulk on the special side with Calm Mind, making it even more hard to revenge kill, since if you don't OHKO Mesprit, Draining Kiss is usually bringing it back to full anyways. Psychic + Fairy coverage is also just absurd in this Meta. There are virtually no Steel-types in this meta, so it's great neutral coverage while hitting Dark-types super effectively, and also is just a great combo in general with Psychic's defensive profile, resisting Dark and Bug, meaning Mesprit can take on Pokemon such as Scyther and Bombirdier more easily. Mesprit also has set versatility as Substitute fits very well on these sets to avoid Status which would otherwise shut Mesprit down and Mesprit does Choice sets very well with Switcheroo and a pivotting move in U-turn, which can also make it quite difficult to guess the set, as you may want to switch in a Pokemon such as Qwilfish-H into it to stop these Tera Fairy sets only be hit with Switcheroo, getting rid of your Eviolite and destroying your bulk. Mystical Power also deserves a shout out for cleaning with Scarf sets, and it can also be a good move when combined with Stored Power, which can be a little gimmicky but still good sets in this meta.


BAN

Grimmsnarl is stupid. The STAB's are unresisted in the NU tier with a 120 Atk stat making it hit pretty hard on everything and a great defensive typing that allows it to get in on the multiple Psychic, Ghost, and Dark-types we have running around at the moment, giving it plentiful opportunities to set up. Bulk Up is able to boost its otherwise mediocre physical defense, making it harder to revenge kill with physical attackers and it also has priority which can mitigate its otherwise low speed. Furthermore, Prankster gives it priority Parting Shots, meaning that Grimmsnarl is able to pivot on around effortlessly on its checks and bring in an answer, supporting its team in the process of also breaking down the opposing team. Due to the tier lacking in Steel- and Fairy-types, it is also hard to find Pokemon that can effectively threaten out Grimmsnarl, as it's great special bulk can make non-STAB attacks simply not do enough to it. Grimmsnarl also has some set versatility. Substitute can fit well for Sub + Bulk Up sets, blocking status without having to use Tera Steel and is also great to capitalize on the amount of switches that Grimmsnarl can force on Pokemon such as Sableye and Hoopa. Not only that, Rest + Chesto Berry sets have also been popping up and are very broken, as Grimmsnarl is already pretty hard to break and having a button it can press to just get back to full can be just insane at times. Special sets also exist, but they are way worse in comparison to its Bulk Up sets. Tera Steel is also an amazing tool to resist Fairy, Poison and Steel-type attacks. It's generally just not very healthy for the tier, and I think the recent replays in NUPL reflect this as well.

DO NOT BAN

Tauros is pretty balanced in my opinion. It is a pretty good wallbreaker with good stats all round, but it does suffer a lot with residual damage since it has to run Life Orb for power and thus Hazards + Rocky Helmet from Pokemon like Sandaconda/Life Orb Recoil on moves that are not Sheer Force boosted can add up overtime. This makes Tauros pretty much die to all hits it takes in a game, and thus it can find it hard to switch in, especially due to its lack of resistances. It also does not have a great way to hit Ghost-types at all, with Pokemon like Sableye walling it and Pokemon like Drifblim and Rotom can be great checks to it as well. General physical walls also do pretty well into Tauros, like Sandaconda for instance. I don't think this Pokemon is broke at all, and is a healthy presence in the metagame as a wallbreaker.

​

 

[Phantomistix]

Quick post on the go before I forget

This tier is cancelled if this thing doesn’t get banned

Broken on paper but in a tier with S rank jolt, A+ heasel, Sandaconda on damn near every team, I feel like Tauros is easy to wear down and take out. There are definitely more broken breakers in the tier and a ban is not justifiable imo.

Hard to tell because it’s been overshadowed by Grimm and is quite hard to make work due to Grimm being on every single team. I feel like it’s fine for now, especially since its best set requires the use of subpar terrain teams. I’d like to see it in a meta without Grimmsnarl before I ban it.

A much more potent breaker than Tauros, but its speed tier lets it down hard. Being slower than Jolteon even with scarf really sucks. The meta is also unkind to it with Grimm on every team, and other dark types being strong, as well as faster threats that can revenge kill it being very common. I’d say a suspect is a good option, especially to see it in a Grimmsnarl-less meta.

Other stuff:

Ban plzplzplz
Ban plzplzplz

 

[Ac1D_13]

Probably gonna get burned alive for this take, but the more I play against this pokemon, the worse it seems. It is still borderline banworthy in my eyes but it has quite a lot of flaws that hold it back a lot. The speed stat is subpar and is it's biggest flaw so it can be revenged with no difficulty. It is pivoted on extremely easily and struggles so much with faster teams in my experience just due to the lack of entry points that it gets. It does destroy bulky teams and you cannot deny it's strength, but this is just a huge "on paper" mon that often fails to do a lot in an actual game. Whether this mon gets banned or not, I'll be fine with either outcome.


Amazing dual STABs which are essentially unresisted due to the lack of steel types in the tier. Bulk Up sets are difficult to deal with, especially as it boosts its Defence before you can even attack and becomes incredibly strong with priority Sucker Punch as well. It can tera into a Steel type to protect it from any poison type moves that may come it's way (obviously needs to be weary of their fighting type moves). It can also just Parting Shot to get itself out of trouble as well as crippling the opposition. Can also provide niche screens support (just use Abomasnow lol). Overall seems like a great pokemon which might be broken and it has performed well in NUPL thus far. I think it is too early for a ban, only because personally I have not really struggled against it, but it should definitely be suspected/monitored in the following metagame.


Only "broken" set is the Calm Mind + Draining Kiss Tera Fairy set, which while good is not broken imo. This metagame is frankly not kind to Psychic types due to all of the Dark/Ghost types in the tier and nearly every team has a grounded Poison type to deal with the threat of Toxic Spikes. It is also just a nice mon to have due to it's utility namely Switcheroo and Stealth Rock are very nice to have. This doesn't seem like a broken threat in the current metagame and shouldn't be banned imo.


Was very worried about this initially but it is a little bit overrated. It gets worn down extremely easily due to entry hazards and Rocky Helmet recoil from certain mons and also has heavy 4MSS as it needs Body Slam and then three of CC/EQ/Assurance/Ice Beam/Rock Slide/Tera Blast(Fairy).
Overall just an honest breaker that isn't too ridiculous which is nice to have in the tier.

Now in terms of other mons:


This has literally been the most broken mon in the tier for 2/3 months, I am honestly surprised no sort of action has been taken against it. Between the Coil sets that have been dominating NUPL with a ridiculously high winrate and the Calm Mind sets who have completely different sets of checks, this pokemon is a nightmare to see in the preview and feels very unfair when you are using it yourself, it's a completely new metagame now but I would still at least have this mon looked into.


This mon is honestly so cheap, the amount of times I have been reverse sweeped by this thing is not even funny. Due to Revelation Dance's interaction with tera and access to Quiver Dance along with its plethora of viable tera types (Grass/Ground/Fairy maybe more idek), it is a massive pain to deal with. It can also use Taunt to completely invalidate any attempts to limit it via status or Trick. Just a really broken mon that should probably be banned.


Vaporeon leaving means it is now more easy to spam it's water STABs and Psychic Fangs is essentially ~120 BP with no drawback at all. Unlike Hoopa, this pokemon is actually fast and gets priority for faster mons anyway and also can just OHKO many neutral targets. Should definitely be looked into imo.

 

[Lilo]

Hoopa @ Leftovers
Ability: Magician
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest/Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Substitute
- Tera Blast
- Shadow Ball
- Psyshock

Initially felt like it deserved a BAN as soon as it got down here, and even though it’s not “as broken” as I thought, it still deserves the hammer.

Had a discussion on the NU room about hoopa, a couple of days ago:

Hoopa has an insane movepool with good stats for a breaker; it’s fast enough to outspeed anything besides jolteon with a scarf while still doing crazy amounts of damage; tera fairy tera blast takes care of potential answers like grimm sucker croak and it is easily, to me at least, a safe tera early on and this here is important.
Once you bypass the opponent Bomb/Grim with tera blast on turn 2, no balance/BO has an answer for this paired with our amazing pivots like jolteon/scyther (even parting shot grimm should pair well with it).

Hoopa is not exactly dead wood vs HO. The ability to take hits from mons like Corio/Viv/ Mesprit/Rotom (although w/tera) can help a lot to revenge them.

Oh and let’s just not talk about stall…



Regarding Grimm: Well it’s a mon alright. It cooks everything, even made me appreciate coil sanda as it was my check into it but then you risk facing cb/dark glasses/ potential BU taunt etc.

This mon is a problem due to the lack of solid counterplay (aka no steels). So a *BAN* is my verdict.

 

[Rabia]

Council slate results are in (Pokeslice abstained this cycle):

	Danny	etern	Finchinator	Luck	meri	Rabia	Togkey	zS	Result
Hoopa	Ban	Ban	Ban	Ban	Ban	Ban	Ban	Ban	Banned
Grimmsnarl	Ban	Ban	Do Not Ban	Ban	Do Not Ban	Ban	Ban	Do Not Ban	Not Banned
Mesprit	Do Not Ban	Do Not Ban	Do Not Ban	Ban	Do Not Ban	Do Not Ban	Do Not Ban	Do Not Ban	Not Banned
Tauros	Do Not Ban	Do Not Ban	Ban	Do Not Ban	Do Not Ban	Do Not Ban	Do Not Ban	Ban	Not Banned

As a result, Hoopa is now banned from NU! Kris or Marty implement at your soonest convenience ^^

Hoopa was unanimously banned because of many factors. First and foremost, the fucker is strong as hell. Base 150 Special Attack and 110 Attack is absurd for NU's standards even taking into consideration that we have a TON of elite Dark-types to check its STAB moves. Beyond mere stats, its moveset versatility patches up any weaknesses typing-wise that it would otherwise have. Tera Blast Fairy owns just about every Dark-type imaginable, Knock Off makes Hisuian Qwilfish far less effective as a defensive stop, Substitute mandates that Blissey run Shadow Ball or become useless; the list goes on forever really.

Grimmsnarl was very close to a ban, with a 5/3 margin in favor of its ban. This is a Pokemon we'll be conducting further internal discussions on for a potential suspect test. Fun fact: did you know that ladder tour accounts can be used for suspect reqs? O_>0

Neither Tauros nor Mesprit received much ban support, with the former netting a 2/6 margin and the latter a 1/7 margin. Barring future circumstances, we won't be acting on them anytime soon.

 

[Rabia]

https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/np-stage-3-hand-of-blood-grimmsnarl-suspect-test.3724383/