Announcement np: SV CAP Stage 5: Year of the Cat (Kitsunoh Nerf)

[spoo]

Hello everyone! With CAPCL and Circuit Championships nearing their completion, it's become abundantly clear that action is needed on one major element of the current metagame: Kitsunoh.

After its buff in August of last year in which Kitsunoh received Trace, Encore and significant buffs to its Attack and Speed, Kitsunoh rose to the pinnacle of the metagame and hasn't shown a single sign of slowing down. In fact, during our last community survey in November, Kitsunoh received a score of 2.9 from the general public and a 3 from qualified voters, indicating that it was already viewed as somewhat problematic and bordering right on the edge of nerf-worthy. As we've continued to witness Kitsunoh's dominance during CAP Champions League and the 2024 Circuit Championships, it's only become more clear that we need to put the cat back in the bag.

Outspeeding the entire unboosted tier outside of Dragapult, Stratagem, Zamazenta, and Deoxys-Speed––and still having a natural positive matchup versus the latter two––Kitsunoh's incredible combination of a fast Will-O-Wisp and Strength Sap allow it to 1v1 the vast majority of the tier's physical attackers, and Encore nearly everything else. What's more, Shadow Strike's 50% Defense drop chance, in addition to chip damage from Will-O-Wisp and potentially disruption from Encore, lets it 1v1 a number of the tier's best walls. Being able to U-turn out on slower would-be checks like Darkrai and Weavile, threaten revenge killers like Great Tusk and Kingambit with burns, Encore set-up sweepers or slower special attackers, heal its entire health bar in a single turn with Strength Sap, and Shadow Strike past status absorbers like Gliscor and Mollux, Kitsunoh leaves little to no room for consistent, long-term offensive or defensive counterplay. While walls like Moltres and Garganacl are generally reliable options, these Pokemon still fall flat against rarer Choice Banded or offensively inclined sets. And this is all without mentioning what is arguably Kitsunoh's biggest asset: reliably spinblocking Equilibra, serving as a truly indispensable tool on any team that aims to control the hazard game. Kitsunoh's only weakness is that it can't do all of this at once; it has to choose one move to drop between Encore, Will-O-Wisp, and U-turn, and Band / AOA sets come with the large opportunity cost of forgoing Kitsunoh's more consistent utility options.

1. The CAP Metagame Council identifies a broken/unhealthy threat. Input from the metagame discussion thread, Discord, high-level tournament replays, etc. are ways the community can voice their concerns to the CAP Metagame council.

2. The CAP Metagame Council begins a thread. The OP, written by the CAP Metagame Council, summarizes why the Pokemon is broken. Metagame shifts, game mechanics changing, or OU bans can be potential points. The CAP Metagame council will also include a checks and counters list. Hard-counters to soft-checks, hazard damage, relative ability to switch-in, etc. should be considered. Keep in mind that with the broken Pokemon in the metagame, we can continue to understand why it is broken.

3. In the thread, the community discusses the simplest solution(s) to making the CAP not broken. Here, we can well-define a new list of checks and counters. Some solutions may be changing its ability to one that's similar but not as good, reducing its speed tier, removing some of its bulk or attack, or removing a certain move or two from its movepool. The community will play a huge role in identifying what solutions are available, but CAP Metagame Council will have the final say on what nerf is implemented. Keep in mind that the nerf(s) that is(are) implemented MUST preserve the identity of the CAP (i.e. Necturna uses Sketch, Pajantom uses its powerful trapping move, etc.).

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Rules for posting in this thread:

• Do not post one liners, nor uninformed posts.
• Do not hold discussion on other potential nerfing processes.
• Do not hold discussion on the nerfing system.
• You are required to make respectful posts.
• If you fail to follow these rules, your post will be deleted and you may be infracted.

We're aiming for this Nerfing Process to last for approximately 2 weeks.

 

[quziel]

Kitsunoh was overbuffed.

Its combination of extreme speed, trace, strength sap, and u-turn means its very feasible for kitsunoh to be at full HP at turn 80, while having burnt 3 mons and chipped 3 others to near death. Its a near perfect addition to spikestack teams precisely because it can block Equilibra forever, threaten to deny Great Tusk, and just generally keep spikes up. This is in addition to it being a great abuser of Spikes itself thanks too Strength Sap easily forcing switches vs physical mons, U-turn letting you punish those switches, and Shadow Strike forcing a switch vs passive mons if you get the 50% often enough.

Spikestack is already a very strong style this generation thanks to a number of truly excellent Spikes users such as Gliscor, Samurott-Hisui, Ting Lu, and Arghonaut, and adding a mon that is tailor made to support the style has pushed a style that was already great to an extremely strong state.

I think if we're going to nerf Kitsunoh it needs to be targeted at the qualities I outlined above. Its longevity and ability to force switches can be targeted by removing Strength Sap, and I believe this is the single nerf that woul have the largest impact on it. Its ability to force switches could be targeted by looking at Encore, its Speed stat, or its Attack stat. A mixture of these could be pursued if we want to ensure the mon doesn't stay strong post nerf.

Trace is a healthy addition to the meta though. A mon that can annoy Ogerpon quite effectively, wall Venomicon, and provide some pushback into safe Libra balances is very useful, even if its currently too effective at its job.

 

[spoo]

Initial thoughts: Kitsunoh is clearly both too good of a breaker and too oppressive as a defensive pivot / disruption mon. It walls half the tier with wisp/sap, and breaks the other half of the tier by spamming shadow strike; ideally it should only be doing one of these things. It needs to have its longevity and defensive utility significantly limited, or needs to become too weak to break past mons like Mollux, Argh, Gliscor, Hemo, etc with shadow strike.

No matter what, I'd like to see Kitsunoh underspeed Darkrai. This is a huge matchup, especially for offense (arguably the playstle that Kitsunoh matches up best against), and simply introducing one more reliable and highly viable revenge killer would go a long way. 124 Speed also means that Weavile and +1 adamant Dnite outspeed, which are less relevant but still worth mentioning. Could drop to 122 for Meow, but I wouldn't go further than that.

I am pretty torn on whether it's better to target Kitsunoh's offensive or utility capabilities. Being a soft check to Woger, Zama, Libra, Valiant, Venom, and plenty of other stuff just by virtue of its typing & ability –– and then being able to customize into beating even more stuff depending on which of U-turn/Wisp/Encore you pick –– makes the mon the single best glue in the tier. Really feels like a lifesaver in the teambuilder when there are so many insane threats you have to cover. I feel like Kitsunoh is at peak bullshit when it's on the field for 10 turns straight just clicking Strike and getting defense drops. I think removing the Attack buff it received is probably the best way to preserve the good things about the mon while eliminating the bad. This also makes offensive sets far worse, which were never very good in the first place, but it still makes the mon that much less flexible.

That said, targeting its utility options is a bigger hit in viability and forces it into a more targeted role. I can sympathise with this approach; the fact that Kitsunoh is in the A tiers at all, let alone S-, after its buff is a little troubling. I do not necessarily disagree with a more heavy-handed route by removing Strength Sap and kneecapping its longevity. (It would still have access to Pain Split, though I'm unsure how much use that would see). This also opens up more room in the tier for mons like fat Ghold and Pecharunt, which Kitsunoh overshadows quite a bit atm. Forcing Kitsunoh into purely offensive sets, or forcing utility sets to play incredibly carefully with their HP (Tinkaton is a good analogy here), is not a bad outcome.

 

[shnowshner]

I'd barely played mons last year so take my thoughts with a healthy dosage of replay-watching salt.

I think Kit overall adds a lot of good to SV CAP just by virtue of being a versatile mon that patches up a large swathe of builder issues, and Trace does a lot to promote skillful positioning and mental play. A big reason why it's seen so much success and experimentation, however, comes down to a "big three" of pretty diabolical elements:

1. Kit is a very fast, fairly strong attacker with one of the best STABs in the game (Ghost), and it's signature move really exemplifies this. Shadow Strike has good BP and a brutal secondary effect that can thwart switch-ins either on the spot or over the course of a match. If you want more immediate power, Poltergeist is as nuclear of a move as ever if you're willing to roll with its intricacies. Kit's Attack is good enough to slot in Shadow Sneak as well to pick off weakened threats. Common Ghost checks also get smashed by CC or worn down via Knock/Wisp/U-Turn/Encore. The all-out-attacker sets we've seen pop up may only be popping up so much since you need to be warded against its other options, but they're nonetheless effective when played well.
2. This mon is the bane of physical attackers. Wisp and Sap may seem like anti-synergy at first but remember that Wisp lowers the power of Physical moves, so you can actually Burn with impunity and half their effective Attack while reaping the benefits of Sap. It also gives a degree of choice and insurance on how you want to tackle Physical threats depending on if you want one or both. Burn is more immediately troublesome but can be counterplayed with Tera Fire, Lum, or preexisting status, while Sap lacks the potency of Wisp but can bring you right back to full HP and essentially halt any progress a Physical mon could make. Combine these two with it's fantastic Speed tier, and Kit is extremely proficient at forcing the hands of Physical threats.
3. Trace is really good on a mon with more than enough stats and moves to be relevant already. You're able to soft check Woger, spinblock Libra, farm HP off of Regenerators, get a free Defense boost from Zama, the list goes on. Scenarios can get as dumb as copying Triage from Rev and forcing the mon into a dire situation where using Sneak might leave you outpaced by Sap or using Poltergeist gets you murked by incoming Ghost STAB. The depth of Trace is kinda absurd in how many opportunities it opens up throughout a game.

You could very easily direct Kitsunoh into being good because of one of these traits. It has all three.

I believe the simplest way to make Kit more honest is cutting Strength Sap. The move hasn't historically been a part of Kitsunoh's movepool, being added during the generational updates when SV CAP went live. Without such a potent and remarkably spammable (this shit has 16 PP) Recovery option Kit needs to play a lot more careful to check what it needs to check. Pain Split and Wish—whether its own or from support—do exist if you need to keep it healthy, but neither are as straightforward and rewarding as Sap.

Toning down its offensive presence is probably as simple as reverting the Attack and movepool buff (so Encore, sorry Earthflax but who is running Upper Hand). I honestly rather enjoy the increased Attack but we're not able to gut Shadow Strike due to logistical roadblocks, and Shadow Strike is definitely what pushes Kit over the edge regarding its damage output. Losing access to Encore also reenables Priority as a safe form of counterplay, as it removes the awkward 50/50s and makes setup a much safer click. Replacing Close Combat with Superpower doesn't feel like a bad move either if going this route, the latter is what Kit has traditionally had access to and the swap helps to make its dangerous Ghost/Fighting coverage a little less oppressive.

I don't really have thoughts on lowering Speed. I understand that having more Revenge Killers would be nice and big man Darkrai would obviously succeed at such a role given its power, but I also kinda hate what Darkrai can do and having another mon that can humble it is nice imo. I feel like either of the two routes above already add a lot of counterplay or simply limit the extent of what Kitsunoh has time to do.

 

[Dead by Daylight]

Hi there, take this opinion with a grain of salt as I am relatively new to the metagame.

What makes Kitsunoh so good?
Personally, Kitsunoh’s wide range of things that it checks as well as its blazing speed are its two biggest attributes that make it so good. When paired with the high number of viable Spikes users this generation, it centralizes the hazard metagame akin to how Gholdengo centralizes it in SV OU. This makes for a metagame where many team styles are constricted - HO needs to win extremely fast, even faster than normal, since it doesn’t have the luxury of predicting wrong and taking just one layer of spikes, while Balance is shoehorned into either lazy Equilibra comps praying that a Kitsunoh doesn’t come or just running Bootspam and praying that there isn’t a Knock Off user that’s good into their team.

What would I do to solve this?
I’d like to float an idea that hasn’t been brought up much - reverting Trace back to Iron Fist. This single-handedly makes Kitsunoh far worse at its job of checking most of the metagame - it makes it vulnerable to Waterpon’s Ivy Cudgel, lets Zamazenta break through it with AoA sets far easier thanks to Dauntless Shield not being copied, lets Equilibra remove Spikes far more effectively now that Levitate isn’t being traced, and lets Regenerator mons like Glowking and Alomomola not have to worry about letting a chipped Kit in for free to Regen. All of these benefits would contribute greatly to the health of the metagame, especially the interaction with Equilibra - when I prepped for SV this CAPCL, I had a perpetual thought that “the best removal in this tier was 6 Heavy-Duty Boots”. This also seems to be a common sentiment.

Another idea that was floated in the discord was removing Wisp from Kitsunoh’s moveset. I personally am in favor of this - Wisp makes Kit an absolute monster with its high speed letting it burn and U-turn on even things that should normally check it. The only issue I see with this is that in combination with Trace’s removal, Kitsunoh could lose to Zamazenta if hard-switched in, but I think that’s a small tradeoff for reducing its potency at spin blocking and spreading passive damage like barely anything does in this metagame.

 

[SHSP]

I think I'm mostly in line with what Spoo posted earlier when it comes to the approach to nerfing Kit. Kit I think genuinely does a lot of cool stuff that usually helps out in the builder, but its such a massive pain to deal with for a lot of styles and needs to be taken down a notch. Speed and maybe a bit of attack keep a lot of what's good about Kit- the utility, the spin blocking, the defensive typing's usefulness- but give a lot more room to play into it.

I also would 100% push for cutting Encore. In tandem with the threats of Sap and Wisp, it just lets Kit manhandle so much stuff. Encore is already such a ridiculous move, especially in this gen, and I feel like its just too much. As for the other two, I genuinely find it hard to picture -Sap as a nerf. The mon's had Sap for almost the entire gen and it was still garbage until we made it one of the fastest mons in the format with a usable ability and solid offensive and utility tools. -Sap is probably the single biggest hit we can do to Kit (outside of -Trace, which I don't think is something we should consider at all, mind you), which also just doesn't strike me as what we want out of this nerf. Sap is a problem now, but Kit is absolutely a mon where it's greater than the sum of its parts. If we can tap down its stats, primarily, and then potentially address other areas of its movepool like Encore, I think we can find a very happy medium where Kit is a useful, viable addition to teams that benefits the meta without feeling like it dominates structures and pushes other very good mons to way more niche uses.

 

[Darquezze]

It's incredible just how much Kitsunoh can do ever since its buffs. It deals good damage, is great at supporting, and has solid defense in-combination with an incredible defensive type. This versatility is what makes Kitsunoh interesting but also frustrating to fight, however I think targetting that versatility directly may pose an issue. I've noticed in the discussions on Discord is that people don't generally agree on what move is the best to cut on Kitsunoh. For every person who says cut Strength Sap, there's someone who likes what that utlity provides, and another who thinks Encore should be cut instead. It's the many options Kitsunoh has that what makes the mon unique and fun to use, even if fun factor shouldn't get in the way of balancing. So I think targeting stats like attack, speed, and its defenses will make Kitsunoh easier to deal with while preserving its versatility.

 

[dex]

Nerf speed. Remove Strength Sap.

Put speed under Darkrai and Weavile, there’s no reason the support ghost should be doing half to your dark. Remove Strength Sap to make it use split or wish (so split). Sap is simply too strong on such a fast mon in concert with all the other survivability stuff it has (trace, wisp).

 

[Anchor9]

During Kitsunoh's buff process I didn’t like the idea of Trace + Encore being added. The ability felt too strong for something that would also be getting an insane Speed and decent Attack buff. These traits have allowed Kitsunoh to be the most constricting spin-blocker in the tier.

My suggestion for a nerf would be twofold:
1. 4 Speed
2. Removing Strength Sap or Trace.
-4 Speed makes Kitsunoh slower than Darkrai and Weavile, which provides more checks. I don’t really believe in the idea that Kitsunoh outspeeding Darkrai is a good thing for role compression on balance. Ting-Lu and Arghonaut easily wall Darkrai and are some of Kitsunoh's most common teammates. Removing Strength Sap forces Kitsunoh to carefully manage its health and play more like Dragapult, while removing Trace heavily constricts Kitsunoh's ability to switch into everything. Strength Sap is more preferable, but one of them needs to go. The only interaction Trace has that is really healthy is soft checking Ogerpon-W. Spin-blocking and punishing Equilibra is nice, but Revenankh and Necturna do the same. I don’t think punishing Equilibra balances is a good excuse to keep Trace since plenty of Ghosts already do this.

I think removing Close Combat and some Attack are optional.
Currently, Kitsunoh is extremely oppressive into offense, but a Speed nerf and either the removal of Strength Sap or Trace should be enough that its Attack doesn’t matter too much.

 

[Cheryl.]

Fast Strength Sap is something that should never be allowed to happen. Pre-buff Kitsunoh may have been ass with it, but it doesn't matter now, we've had to deal with 128 Speed Strength Saps for the past couple of months and it is utter agony every time. I think cutting its Speed down a bit (like others have said, at least under Darkrai and Weavile, probably under Meow too) is more than fair enough, but I still think Strength Sap needs to be removed even with that nerf. This gen of CAP has enough offense beaters, we do not need Strength Sap + Wisp/Encore ruining physical offense more than it is already ruined by the presence of mons like Cresceidon (chill guy but could use some trimming between TWave or Encore). Kit should be more than viable without Sap even if it has to play more carefully around its foes, its got Trace utility for spinblocking and a very strong movepool still.

I'm also in the minority for thinking this, but another reason why a Speed nerf would be ideal would be to reduce the power level of Kit's attacking sets like Choice Band. Listen I get they're not nearly as strong as the utility sets but try to build a balance team and realize CB Poltergeist from 128 Speed/117 Attack is broken into nearly everything. You don't even need to build wacky with it like zero Knock Off partners cause it also has Shadow Strike for consistent strong Ghost STAB that can pressure walls for free, slap a Tera Ghost and Kit is going to PRESS BUTTONS on your team. Shit's cheap, not as cheap as the utility set but still CHEAP. Bring that Speed down a notch (and remove Sap!).

 

[Brigtel]

I agree with a lot of what was said in the upper part of the thread, especially by spoo and shsp. I have mostly two things I want to say: one is that we should definitely remove encore, as it is both unnecessary and problematic in some ways. The second is that Kit doesn't need its nerf to be the removal of strength sap+major stat nerfs, I don't believe the goal of this process is to run Kit into the ground and I think this would be the effect.

Encore creates too many situations where simply the possibility that an opposing Kit could have encore creates far too much pressure on the person facing it to just make good moves, to use good pokemon like SD gliscor that should be a good check to Kit, because if you mess up and they've got an encore Kit, they might completely snatch the momentum from you which I think is too punishing. It also creates very awkward endgame situations where, even if the Kit HAS revealed encore so there's no uncertainty, you have to constantly question your every move out of fear that your situation is going to get ruined by a well timed switch.
It is also completely unnecessary for Kit to function, many of its best sets don't include encore and there are already so many moves you want to include but have to choose not to, reducing options would make it more predictable without making it less effective at its job.

Strength sap just inverts so many matchups for Kit, nearly every physical matchup including tusk, lando, non sd gliscor, Zama ect...
The longevity is also one of the most crucial things that allows kit to actually be a consistent switch to almost any of the mons it checks, have fun switching into an ogerpon knock or even a weak arghonaut or clefable knock when you cannot get easy healing. The battle dynamics brought about by Kit are just completely different when it doesn't have strength sap. Removing it would surely be enough to make Kit much easier to deal with.

make it use split or wish (so split)

yeah both these moves are terrible in modern times, I don't expect either one to be used.

Punishing overreliance on equilibra is quite a good thing I think, we can definitely reach a more balanced state for Kitsunoh.
While removing strength sap is the more obvious choice, and I have said that's what we should do in the past, especially given how difficult to balance it is, I'm not sure I agree with that anymore. I think there are other paths we can explore to balance it, most notably nerfing speed as many others have mentioned, which would also reduce the power of strength sap because of how much the two synnergize. Depending on how little else the nerf package includes, I think we could go as low as being outsped by Cinderace, who would become a more reasonable check and an alternative for dealing with hazard stack. But I don't think Kit would need both a major speed nerf AND a removal of strength sap, that seems like it would seriously be overkill.
To go along with what was said before of making sure Kit isn't both a defensive and offensive demon at the same time, we could also reduce the attack, though I have no idea how much of a nerf we would need for the impact to be significant. I've talked about removing poltergeist before but that just doesn't seem to be a major issue right now.

 

[Steam Buns]

encore is pretty obviously unhealthy and people have given good enough explanations why already, I'd actually be happy to stop the nerf there.

I strongly disagree with the sentiment that strength sap is broken however, I don't think people fully understand how much that move is being carried by 31 attack ivs on pokemon that don't need them. Kitsunoh owes most of its success to the equilibra matchup but it can't even out heal flash cannon damage and needs good rng to win the 1v1.

I'm indifferent to small speed nerfs or reverting the attack buff I don't think it matters much either way but personally I'd just remove poltergeist as that is what makes offensive sets such an immediate threat.

I think we should leave it's pre-gen 8 moves alone and lastly if speed does get nerfed we must absolutely keep it minimal. The reason kit fell off so hard is because what it means to be fast pokemon changed as speed tiers became super inflated and kitsunoh lost its identity, also speed ties are stupid so give 122 or 123 instead of 124 the protean starters aren't as relevant as cresc.

 

[Turn Up]

first time posting in a thread like this, sorry if my thoughts aren't the most legible

I for one am pretty happy with the state of Kitsunoh in the meta. It's a top dog undoubtably, but I believe a lot of it's overwhelming prescense is coming from it's newness. For the entirety of SV, hazard play has pretty much revolved around Gholdengo, which has obviously lead to the decline of encore. I don't have the extensive SV CAP experience to say that the tier has been as Gholdengo-centric as OU, I imagine it has not been partially due to Mollux & Equilibra, but nonetheless, it has been a mon you basically have to prep for. Kitsunoh broke this pattern by being able to comfortably switch into Equilibra, who is, according to CAPCL IV usage, basically the definitely glue mon of the SV CAP tier (First, or tied first for 3/4 weeks.) I don't believe Equilibra is a problematic pokemon by any means, but I do believe having a reliable way to answer the most common mon in the metagame is a great addition. The usual response is that disabling libra is making hazard stack too powerful, but I disagree. The rise of Kitsunoh has pretty directly led to a large fall off in usage for Gholdengo, a mon that was already struggling in usage in the CAP tier due to Mollux and Equilibra. This opens up the mostly forgotten defog as hazard removal, something that I've experimented with a little already, but clearly has not seen much experimentation within CAPCL games (2 corvs over weeks 1-4 total). Not saying Corv is a guaranteed Kitsunoh hard counter by any means, but it's a mon with an answer to, imo, the "problematic" part of Kitsunoh, and although not hitting it back, gets to slow u-turn on it only at the risk of a burn that is pretty inconsequential to Corv's gameplan, and burn through it's limited pp pool with Pressure.


TLDR; stop being lazy with hazard removal and spamming glue libra only to complain about kitsu being a broken blockerf we are not playing SV OU, defog is viable, and there are other answers

Bit of a dump, sorry, but with all of this in mind, in the interest of preserving Kitsunoh's current merits within the metagame, my proposed nerfs are;

1. -6 Speed
Most people elect for -4 speed, and ultimately I also think that is a fine fix, but I do think it underspeeding Meowscarada and giving another fast dark type to outspeed it (The main basis behind -4) would be nice. It also means you're not tying with Cresceidon, another exceedingly popular pokemon of the tier and I don't think anyone would complain about less speed ties in the meta

2. -Poltergeist and/or Close Combat
The thing that truly scares me about Kitsunoh in current meta, moreso than it's utility, is how scared it's switch in's are of it's lesser used offensive set. I think Shox is one of the best switch ins but if I haven't had the chance to scout and switch Shox into a cc the mon is basically done for. Similarly, switching Mollux into a banded/high investment Poltergeist basically instantly writes off what is otherwise a comfortable matchup. Don't have the time to comprehensively explore the Kitsunoh switch-ins and how they fail into these moves atm, but all teams are inherently built to have good counterplay to the utility of Kitsunoh, they can pretty easily lose to offensive Kitsunoh, which imo just serves to buff the utility set more, as you have to play in fear of the offensive set

2.5 -? Attack
Alternatively nerfing attack stat could be a solution to this, but I'm simply not smart enough, nor have the time to deepdive into damage calculator, to be able to provide a value I would be comfortable with so I'm just mentioning it as an offhand

 

[earthflax]

YALL VOTED FOR IT THO

figured i'd chip in as someone who's participated in every tour since kit buff + the submitter of the fateful package. i think kit's positives have far outweighed its negative impacts on the metagame so far and it's not too far away from being completely and totally fine.

my thoughts pretty much exactly mirror buns. i think encore is a very obvious removal and past that everything else is just preference. reverting the attack buff (-14 atk) is also good as the lower attack + strike not being 100% accurate limit its spammability.

i think that if we're looking to limit set variability, and with the aforementioned nerfs on the table, then it's best practice to axe polt and maybe cc. i love band/offensive kit personally but this makes the most logical sense to me. offensive kit works as a function of utility kit being so good; if you're making offensive kit the better set or preserving it on the whole while removing some of kit's utility then you're removing the positive impact of its utility set and the reduced surprise factor would impact the potency of its offensive set.

speed nerfs really only flip certain matchups and i guess make offense a little happier, so i think i'm coming around to them so long as they are very minimal, 123 at the very very minimum. dont think they move the needle a ton tho

never vote for any package of mine ever again thanks, also if you axe upper hand i'm going slapperfish

 

[Spammernoob]

Not saying Corv is a guaranteed Kitsunoh hard counter by any means, but it's a mon with an answer to, imo, the "problematic" part of Kitsunoh, and although not hitting it back, gets to slow u-turn on it only at the risk of a burn that is pretty inconsequential to Corv's gameplan, and burn through it's limited pp pool with Pressure.

As someone who's played against a good number of Corvs in OU, you do not want to let it get burned or it becomes setup fodder for other mons.

This doesn't really affect the gameplan though; you normally want to get Corv in on something it walls, Defog, and switch out when opponent brings in Kit.

 

[Pipotchi]

I guess I'll post over some thoughts from discord- Kit has multiple checks defensively and offensively, its issue is what should be a defensive check can be cheesed through with Shadow Strike and Encore, while the offensive checks can sometimes be neutralized with Wisp and Strength Sap. I think the cheesier strengths should be looked at primarily, so I agree that Encore is very easy to remove from the mon. I also think that Shadow Strike is honestly a BS move and I think it should be talked about. Its a custom element and the idea of doing a buff or nerf to a entire fake mon while demanding some kind of consistency to an unhealthy move is contradictory. The move has a weird 95% accuracy and an unreliable drop chance that makes it awkward for both players to rely on. I think it would be smart to remove Shadow Strike's defense drop chance, crippling its chances to eventually break through defensive hazard setters like Arghonaut and Gliscor even if it is Strength Sapping its way to full HP. Kit doesnt actually hit hard in terms of BP, having a moderate 117 Atk and using a base 80BP move STAB. Without a drop, it stops 2hkoing barely bulk-invested mons like Hemo and Iron Valiant so offensive teams and balance teams gain a lot more reliable counterplay.

So, removing Encore and making Shadow Strike effectless would put Kitsunoh in a respectable place where it can be defensively checked by all team styles, but still provides its strong ability to be a universal revenge killer, spinblock libra and defensively check waterpon/a few other threats. You could target Strength Sap in this nerf too, although this move has counterplay and isnt too problematic vs mons like Gliscor and Arghonaut even if you spam it against them when you can't break them with Shadow Strike- they'll be getting as many turns as they like to throw out their hazards, knock you off or perhaps slow pivot on you. Its still an annoying move, but the cheesy aspects of shadow strike fishing and the looming threat of a potential encore are more uncompetitive to me than the defensive moves it uses.


Things I dont rly agree with
CC-> Superpower. This is a wonky downgrade that doesnt help mons like Darkrai or Equilibra feel any safer.
Removing Trace. I think we should probably stick with Trace, not because I think its positive or helps Kitsunoh be a "scout" (idk about either of those) but it would mean another complete overhaul, and to be honest it would require more guesswork to start again ability-less than the current state.
Removing a ton of speed. I like that this mon is fast, and I agree it has too many tools for its speed tier, but hopefully the removal of tools will allow it to remain lightning fast in the tier. I get why ppl are calling for a drop below Darkrai, something Im not really here for but as long as it outspeeds <120s itll still retain that good feeling of being a universally useful revenge killer.
Remove Upper Hand. Clearly without this move Kitsunoh will sink so far into the lower tiers it will create CAP RU, splitting the playerbase further, and ultimately causing CAP to collapse inwards on itself and go extinct within 6 months.

 

[spoo]

I’ve said this on discord but figure it’s good to say it here too: touching shadow strike realistically isn’t happening. Not trying to speak for the rest of the council, perhaps they have different opinions, but I am speaking a little bit as CAP Leader here. I’d really rather we didn’t mess with our custom elements. These customs have been part of CAP for well over a decade, and in all that time, we haven’t even come close to further altering them. They’re historical artifacts of decisions and processes - imperfect ones, maybe - from a bygone era. Granted, so are the CAPs themselves, but this isn’t an all-or-nothing sort of deal; we can easily draw a line between modifying parts of the actual CAP mons (necessary) and changing 15+ year old custom mechanics as we see fit (unnecessary). CAP’s customs are already one of the more unusual quirks of the format and making them behave differently in different gens is just extra mess. I don’t really want this to set a precedent or anything - maybe Persistent will be so broken in Gen 10 that we have to nerf it, I dunno - but right now, tweaking our customs can and should be avoided.

There’s a second, simpler reason I think hitting shadow strike isn’t realistic, though: it’s not even the best nerf on a purely practical level. Kitsunoh was decidedly unviable, it received a bunch of strong tools, and now it’s broken. This is a clear-cut case where the tools that it received at the start of the generation / during the buff process are unambiguously what is breaking Kitsunoh. Calls to nerf other aspects of the mon read to me as attempts to curate Kitsunoh into a personal vision of what the mon should be, rather than attempts to address the demonstrably broken elements. This isn’t inherently a bad thing - like, I also agree that shadow strike is a horribly designed move by Gen 9 standards - but I don’t think this approach entirely aligns with the purpose of these nerf processes. Most of what a shadow strike rework would accomplish can also be done just by removing the attack that Kitsunoh got during its buff process. It’s an impractical and unnecessary route to take, plan and simple.

Ok, all that aside, it feels like people are starting to coalesce around a couple of removals, those being Encore and a minor speed nerf. These seem like pretty uncontroversial changes. Past that, I think folks are generally split into two camps: removing strength sap or nerfing Kit’s offensive capabilities.

I personally fall into the latter camp, though not by a huge amount. I think Attack nerfs are what best preserve Kitsunoh’s historical identity (“scout” / defensive pivot) and make special attackers - often mons with lower defense stats - harder to muscle past with lucky shadow strike rng. The healthy things that Kitsunoh brings to the table for the tier - a splashable woger check, insane builder compression, a release valve on libra balances, generally just diversifying what team structures are viable (imo) - are mostly left intact. And frankly I don’t think the meta/playerbase has fully adapted to Kitsunoh anyways - e.g. many folks still default to spin/DD/EP/split Libra with the automatic 31 atk IVs (the atk IVs are an obvious problem, but other movesets can deter Kit way more reliably). Kitsunoh isn’t some unstoppable force tearing the tier in half, it’s just kinda too good at doing too many things at once, so tamping down on any one of those things should be enough. I don’t dislike -strength sap as an option either, though, and I wouldn’t be surprised if that’s how the nerf ends up.

 

[Da Pizza Man]

I'm really confused as to why there seems to be a growing sentiment that we should be tackling offensive kit here. Being entirely honest, nerfing Kit's offenses does pretty much nothing to mitiage the fact that the reason why Kit is so good right now is that it's able to very easily cheese matchups that it has no right winning through the combination of Strength Sap + Will-O-Wisp, and the aspect of this Pokemon that is causing this issue is its access to Strength Sap. Kit is pretty much always running more utility based sets to begin with anyways, so the only thing that trying to neuter offensive sets is going to do is remove some of the variance the mon has in the builder.

Admittedly, axing strength sap is a pretty big nerf, and I think the reason that a lot of people don't want to do it is because they personally believe that Kit adds a lot to the metagame. Being entirely honest, I do not agree with this sentiment whatsoever. The notion that Libra Balance was some dominant force that needed to be answered, and that Kitsunoh was that answer, is quite frankily moronic. Prior to the Kitsunoh buff, there really wasn't anyone who was talking about this being an issue, and being quite honest, the introduction of Kit really hasn't done all that much to deter peoplef from using Libra as their usual go-to spinner to begin with anyways, especially now that people are actually trying out different techs on Libra that actual improve the matchup (Namely we are starting to see a lot more Bulletproof on Equilibra nowadays, as well as people dropping Protect in favor of Flash Cannon more often). I also disagree with spoo that libra diversifyes what team structures are viable, and in fact I actually think it's kinda doing the opposite. Kit in it's current state is very oppresive into Stall, and is one of a handful of mons that make CAP Offense feel kinda shit to play and build (Granted, it's not alone in this regard), resulting in people just gravitating to balance and bulky offense even more than they already do. The only thing I really agree that Kit adds to the metagame that is a healthy addition is the fact that it serves as a splashable check to Waterpon, which while nice, is not enough for me to consider it a net positive for the metagame.

 

[earthflax]

The notion that Libra Balance was some dominant force that needed to be answered, and that Kitsunoh was that answer, is quite frankily moronic. Prior to the Kitsunoh buff, there really wasn't anyone who was talking about this being an issue (emphasis mine)

Don't care to address the rest of your post, but the last paragraph is not accurate at all in my eyes.
Let's take a look at the last two major tours before the Kit buff: CAPPL X and the 2024 summer seasonal.

In SSNL, Libra had a 40% usage rate and a positive winrate. Anyone could tell you that this level of usage is genuinely absurd, and to have a (marginally) positive win rate when there was a mirror in on average 1 in 6 games is equally bonkers. I'm not saying that this proves that Libra was some insane mon in ssnl just because its usage rate was high, but to say that Libra teamstyles were not the prevailing archetype post-Chugg nerf 1 (read: dominant) is not correct.

What's more insane to me are the CAPPL usage stats as a whole. Once again, we see Equilibra topping the usage stats with a whopping 60% winrate. You can draw your own conclusions from that; maybe it just means Libra is really good and healthy for the metagame. Who am I to say. But as we look lower down the stats, we start to see a very obvious and somewhat alarming pattern of balance and BO mons that all have a 60%+ win rate: Argh, Venomicon, Glisc, Zama, and most egregious, Cresc and Garg both sitting at 70%+ winrates and high usage to boot. Again, I'm not here to tell anyone what to think of these stats, but let's not pretend that the pre-Kit meta was not full of balances that hinged on Libra to spin, spin, spin. My CAPPL scouts (including against your team!) show me the exact same picture: weatherless Chugg offense, sun, and Garg/Libra balance.

Sure, nobody was actively moaning about Libra balances being some cancer on the metagame, but we also all watched the games in CAPPL, right? Barring the bullshit Chugg offenses were doing and the smattering of sun throughout the tour, the teams that we'd see were always some Libra Garg and/or Cresc bullshit that kept hazards down the whole game, spread para and chipped the opp to death. Did it need to be answered? Nothing objectively does, in any metagame. But in my opinion it's just as well that it did.

and being quite honest, the introduction of Kit really hasn't done all that much to deter people from using Libra as their usual go-to spinner to begin with anyways, especially now that people are actually trying out different techs on Libra that actual improve the matchup (Namely we are starting to see a lot more Bulletproof on Equilibra nowadays, as well as people dropping Protect in favor of Flash Cannon more often).

If anything this is proof that Kit existing in the niche that it does is good. Libra is so valuable to the CAP metagame that people are starting to run suboptimal sets to deal with the S- mon that shuts down most of its shtick. Do we really want to gut the mon that forces pressure onto Libra so it can go back to being able to spin unopposed? Is it somehow a bad thing that Kit is forcing people who want to use the mon that used to go almost entirely unpunished to actually weigh up risk and reward?

I also disagree with spoo that [Kit] diversifyes what team structures are viable, and in fact I actually think it's kinda doing the opposite. Kit in it's current state is very oppresive into Stall,

If you have Encore.

and is one of a handful of mons that make CAP Offense feel kinda shit to play and build

If you have Wisp. The mythical 8-move Kitsunoh is definitely annoying for both of these archetypes to deal with! For real, though, people talking about the pressure it places on both ends of the teambuilding spectrum aren't thinking about how you play vs. Kit in-game. It is a lot easier to scout than a lot of people are saying that it is, and once its moves are revealed then half of the stuff that you worry Kit will do in the builder magically goes away.

To reiterate once more, I am not telling anyone how to feel about the direction that Kit's dominance has taken the meta in, but I think that misrepresenting the context of the meta before and during this period is a bad thing and does not help people to form accurate conclusions about the place the mon actually has in the meta.

 

[Brigtel]

it feels like people are starting to coalesce around a couple of removals, those being Encore and a minor speed nerf. These seem like pretty uncontroversial changes. Past that, I think folks are generally split into two camps: removing strength sap or nerfing Kit’s offensive capabilities.

Since that coalescence seems to be happening, I'd like those of us who fall into it to start talking more about specifics, with justification for those specifics.

Before I talk about my propositions, I'd like to highlight a few things: First, Kitsunoh isn't being nerfed exclusively because of its versatility, though that is a factor. If we were to say, just remove Encore and reduce speed to 124, all we're really doing is forcing Kit into its most reliable set and making Darkrai faster than it. All games where those two factors don't matter much (ex:Kit is already running that set and Darkrai is not here) won't see a big difference in Kit's power, though it will make it more predictable and easier to build around. Is that enough to fulfill the purpose of this nerf process? I guess answers will vary but keep that question in mind.

Second, its pretty hard to ascertain the exact impact of any attack nerf.
This is not to say it would not be impactful, just that we don't know how much a certain reduction in attack would realistically affect it in practice. Getting calcs with it is kinda nightmarish, mostly because of just how many scenarios can happen when taking into account Shadow Strike's defense drops. I guess I can tell you that removing the attack nerf entirely makes Kit have a low chance to 3HKO 252/0 libra with Shadow Strike even if the first one gets a defense drop, while using the spread that lives waterpon knock. Not a terribly useful calc, though it does show the power of the nerf. At the very least, an attack nerf might force more attack investment and deter sets that would otherwise invest a lot in bulk.

I'm really confused as to why there seems to be a growing sentiment that we should be tackling offensive kit here. Being entirely honest, nerfing Kit's offenses does pretty much nothing to mitiage the fact that the reason why Kit is so good right now is that it's able to very easily cheese matchups that it has no right winning through the combination of Strength Sap + Will-O-Wisp

I don't agree with this, while I am of the opinion that offensive kit is mostly just not a problem right now I do think nerfing its offenses can help teams deal with the utility sets more easily, mostly because of how oppressive shadow strike can be, and how the other offensive moves in Kit's arsenal can wreck stuff like Garganacl or Moltres. It also makes Kit more predictable. Also, Utility and Offensive Kit overlap in several ways and you can mix and match both depending on the purpose you need Kit to fulfill, it is not a dichotomy. There is a reason Kit runs attack even on utility sets.

Third, a Strength Sap removal would be a huge nerf all on its own. Even if your opinion on Kit is that it is a very problematic and strictly negative addition to the metagame, I don't think the purpose of this nerf is to make the mon competitively irrelevant or remove its current niches. We had a buff process, it made Kit good, it is now being deemed too good, so we're turning down the dial. This isn't to say we can't remove it, but if we do, any nerf accompanying it should be very conservative in my opinion.

Here are my propositions:

-Encore -10 Speed
A more heavy-handed speed nerf than what others have suggested, it makes you slower than Cinderace and Roaring Moon. On the other hand, it leaves Kit's offenses relatively untouched.

-Encore -14 Attack -4 Speed
Lowers the speed to tie with Cresceidon, this seems to be a benchmark many people agree on. Undoes the attack buff it got from the process.

I'd like to see what others propose

 

[spoo]

We're going to let this stay open a little longer because it doesn't make sense for the nerf to go live during CAPCL finals. It's been a busy weekend for a lot of the meta council anyways, so we're not gonna rush this. Expect a nerf to be announced by next weekend. In the meantime, feel free to keep discussing.

 

[MC Squared]

We're going to let this stay open a little longer because it doesn't make sense for the nerf to go live during CAPCL finals. It's been a busy weekend for a lot of the meta council anyways, so we're not gonna rush this. Expect a nerf to be announced by next weekend. In the meantime, feel free to keep discussing.

Will the community be voting on the nerf package or will it be decided by just you guys?

 

[spoo]

Will the community be voting on the nerf package or will it be decided by just you guys?

The meta council will be deciding it internally based on the feedback we’ve received in this thread and on Discord

 

[G-Luke]

I think removing Strength Sap and Encore are the easiest and cleansst ways to nerf Kit without being needlessly complicated. I'm actually heavily against the speed nerf, because I don't think its necessary if we open up the woodworks on how to address it from the slower threats it would have to face (No Sap + Wisp makes Tusk actually check it, No Encore cuts into it beating stuff in general).

The offensive sets rely on just how ubiquitous and potent utility sets, so directly nerfing those will lead to the offensive sets falling in line as well.

 

[spoo]

Meta council has been discussing and voting this past week, here's what we ended up with:

Stats: -14 Attack, -8 Speed
Movepool: -Encore​

Kitsunoh will now be outsped by Darkrai, Cresceidon, Weavile, Meowscarada, Tornadus-T, and Greninja. The Attack buff that Kitsunoh received during its Buff Process has been fully reverted, constituting about a 10% loss in overall attacking power. Additionally, Kitsunoh has lost Encore. We felt that the Encore and Speed removals were very well-supported and justified for reasons outlined in this thread already. The Attack nerf was much more contentious in internal council discussions, however; we briefly discussed removing Poltergeist in order to weaken the effectiveness of CB sets and help standardize counterplay, but we believed reverting its Attack buff accomplished this goal more intuitively while also targeting one of the more troublesome aspects of the standard utility set: the sheer effectiveness of Shadow Strike as a STAB option.

Some calcs to get a ballpark idea of Kitsunoh's changed offensive power:

Calcs

117 Attack: 152 Atk Kitsunoh Shadow Strike vs. 248 HP / 224+ Def Arghonaut: 85-102 (20.5 - 24.6%) -- possible 6HKO
103 Attack: 152 Atk Kitsunoh Shadow Strike vs. 248 HP / 224+ Def Arghonaut: 78-93 (18.8 - 22.5%) -- possible 6HKO

117 Attack: 152 Atk Kitsunoh Shadow Strike vs. -1 248 HP / 224+ Def Arghonaut: 129-153 (31.2 - 37%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
103 Attack: 152 Atk Kitsunoh Shadow Strike vs. -1 248 HP / 224+ Def Arghonaut: 118-139 (28.5 - 33.6%) -- 96.7% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

117 Attack: 252 Atk Choice Band Kitsunoh Shadow Strike vs. 248 HP / 248+ Def Moltres: 141-166 (36.8 - 43.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
103 Attack: 252 Atk Choice Band Kitsunoh Shadow Strike vs. 248 HP / 248+ Def Moltres: 129-153 (33.6 - 39.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

117 Attack: 252 Atk Choice Band Kitsunoh Shadow Strike vs. -1 248 HP / 248+ Def Moltres: 211-250 (55 - 65.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
103 Attack: 252 Atk Choice Band Kitsunoh Shadow Strike vs. -1 248 HP / 248+ Def Moltres: 195-229 (50.9 - 59.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Aiming to get this implemented on the sim sometime this week. That's all folks, hope y'all have a nice day.