Metagame np: SV DOU Stage 7: Behind the Mask

[Actuarily]

I walk around, I'm sufferin' in my doom
When I come to you, you're sittin' in your room
You sit around in the strangest place (hee, hee, hee)
So take off the mask so I can see your face​

The first downloadable content of Scarlet & Violet, the Teal Mask, is around the corner! It is projected to be released on September 13th, and we believe Showdown will updated that day. With the DLC comes new Pokémon and new movesets for existing Pokémon, which will surely change up the Doubles OU metagame. While we can’t be 100% certain of what’s to come, here’s what we expect based off what we’ve heard thus far.

We’re expecting that the below Pokémon will be returning to SV DOU:

Returning Pokemon

Ekans
Arbok
Cleffa
Clefairy
Clefable
Oddish
Gloom
Vileplume
Vulpix
Ninetails
Poliwag
Poliwhirl
Poliwrath
Politoed
Bellossom
Muchlax
Snorlax
Sentret
Furret
Hoothoot
Noctowl
Aipom
Ambipom
Yanma
Yanmega
Gligar
Gliscor
Smeargle
Swinub
Piloswine
Mamoswine
Poochyena
Mightyena
Seedot
Nuzleaf
Shiftry
Corphish
Crawdaunt
Chingling
Chimecho
Feebas
Milotic
Phantump
Trevenant
Grubbin
Charjabug
Vikavolt
Jangmo-o
Hakamo-o
Kommo-o
Cramorant

Then we expect the following new Pokémon to be joining the metagame.

New Pokémon

Ursaluna (Blood Moon)
Dipplin
Poltchageist (unremarkable)
Poltchageist (masterpiece)
Sinistcha (unremarkable)
Sinistcha (masterpiece)
Okidogi
Munkidori
Fezandipiti
Ogerpon
Ogerpon (Teal Mask)
Ogerpon (Wellspring Mask)
Ogerpon (Heartflame Mask)
Ogerpon (Cornstone Mask)

As always, when there’s a new batch of Pokémon entering the metagame, this will require rapid tiering. So the DOU Council will follow Smogon Tiering Policy and have all new Pokemon to SV (excluding cover legends) start as Doubles OU eligible. However, Pokémon that were previously banned in SV DOU will remain banned.

It is currently our understanding that none of the new Pokémon are cover legends (similar to the Isle of Armor DLC in SS). So that means that every Pokémon coming will be Doubles OU eligible. Before the downloadable content is released, the Doubles Council will hold a quickban vote slate to determine the fate of two groups of pokemon/abilities:

1. Pokémon or abilities that were banned in SV DOU before the DLC in the current metagame. These Pokémon will start in Doubles Ubers, and in order to be eligible in Doubles OU, they must get a 2/3 supermajority council vote to drop to Doubles OU.

2. Pokémon that are joining SV via DLC, but were banned in previous generations. These Pokémon will start in Doubles OU, and they must get a 2/3 supermajority council vote to be banned from Doubles OU.

Following that, there will be 3 quickban vote slates to try to quickly react to metagame changes and remove overpowered pokemon from the metagame.

• The first will occur on September the 17th, and only Pokémon included on the pre-home slate will be included.*
• The second will occur on September the 24th, and new Pokémon in the DLC will be eligible to be included. Pokémon included on the pre-home slate will also be included.
• The last will occur on October the 1st. In this slate, all Pokémon included on the previous slate will be voted on.

After these slates, suspect tests will be the preferred method to determine tiering.

* There is some debate over the stats and status of the Ogerpon mask forms, and there is a chance that these Pokémon will be included on the first slate on the 17th. The council will decide this based on community sentiment, so please post on this thread if you’d like for those Pokémon to be included in that slate.

This thread will be where all announcements regarding tiering decisions will be posted. This is also the thread that should be used for discussion of the post-DLC SV DOU metagame. The council would love to hear your input regarding how the new Pokemon will affect the metagame. We're looking forward to this new metagame and the discussion that follows!

 

[eragon]

My Opinion on Dubers mons and Returning Mons in DLC
With the release of the DLC in the coming days and the imminent council vote on how many/if any of the mons in Dubers will be freed, I kinda just want to give my opinion (which nobody asked for) on which things should be considered freeable and I encourage others to do the same. Will be brief on most but some will require more explanation.
Dubers mons:

Definitely should stay banned, the mon has proven twice (and another time in natdex) to be quite degenerate and both times it led to a very centralized and unhealthy metagame. Maybe after the 2nd DLC if there's enough power creep there could be another look at this, but even then with the silly Rage Fist mechanics I don't think this has a place in SV DOU as funny as it is sometimes (Stantler moment)

Basc-M is probably still too strong, I don't really think it's worth trying to bring it back, it was just so strong and even Basc-F is slightly unhealthy imo so keep this banned- the power creep of this first DLC doesn't appear to be enough to change things enough

skull emoji

No. (ban commander)

This one is a little debatable for me, I think this can probably come back since there's some people that think the ban was a little quick in hindsight. There's a pretty good chance this might still be bad for the metagame but I think it's kind of borderline and deserves a second look more than anything else on this list (especially if glide rilla returns).

This thing's a little too strong with dark coverage and has always been problematic in DOU, I don't think this first DLC warrants any change from the status quo.

(The water one) This one is very interesting to me, I think it may have been banned a little quickly previously and if Rilla does get glide back I think this mon could be in a more healthy position in this new meta. I don't really feel too strongly about this one, Unseen Fist is still dumb and tera exists but I think this could use a second look. If it doesn't get tried now I do think it should be considered strongly for parole once DLC 2 releases (which I'm thinking may have more powercreep)

A very interesting Pokemon that I do think wouldn't be much of an issue, but I don't think this is the time for it yet, let's wait until SV settles more and DLC 2 drops (sorry Schister)

Returning mons (slight spoilers if you don't want to know)

Of the returning mons there's not really anything that looks problematic these seem pretty tame, obviously is banned in SM but that's more a specific metagame thing and it's pretty mediocre in SS (not even duu, lol) and the odds of that changing are quite slim.

I do think has the potential to be extremely annoying and stupid and unfun with tera but we'll have to see.

New mons (spoilers kinda)

Of the new mons we don't have enough info yet for any kind of definitive determination but I would like to note there was a rumor that Ogerpon had a 665 BST and if it does end up with something like that it obviously shouldn't be around so just want to bring that up in case it's something like that.

From what's been datamined so far my impression is that the new Ursaluna doesn't seem that bad but considering the other form got banned before it's probably worth keeping an eye on.

 

[Schister]

My Opinion on Dubers mons and Returning Mons in DLC
With the release of the DLC in the coming days and the imminent council vote on how many/if any of the mons in Dubers will be freed, I kinda just want to give my opinion (which nobody asked for) on which things should be considered freeable and I encourage others to do the same. Will be brief on most but some will require more explanation.
Dubers mons:

Definitely should stay banned, the mon has proven twice (and another time in natdex) to be quite degenerate and both times it led to a very centralized and unhealthy metagame. Maybe after the 2nd DLC if there's enough power creep there could be another look at this, but even then with the silly Rage Fist mechanics I don't think this has a place in SV DOU as funny as it is sometimes (Stantler moment)

Basc-M is probably still too strong, I don't really think it's worth trying to bring it back, it was just so strong and even Basc-F is slightly unhealthy imo so keep this banned- the power creep of this first DLC doesn't appear to be enough to change things enough

skull emoji

No. (ban commander)

This one is a little debatable for me, I think this can probably come back since there's some people that think the ban was a little quick in hindsight. There's a pretty good chance this might still be bad for the metagame but I think it's kind of borderline and deserves a second look more than anything else on this list (especially if glide rilla returns).

This thing's a little too strong with dark coverage and has always been problematic in DOU, I don't think this first DLC warrants any change from the status quo.

(The water one) This one is very interesting to me, I think it may have been banned a little quickly previously and if Rilla does get glide back I think this mon could be in a more healthy position in this new meta. I don't really feel too strongly about this one, Unseen Fist is still dumb and tera exists but I think this could use a second look. If it doesn't get tried now I do think it should be considered strongly for parole once DLC 2 releases (which I'm thinking may have more powercreep)

A very interesting Pokemon that I do think wouldn't be much of an issue, but I don't think this is the time for it yet, let's wait until SV settles more and DLC 2 drops (sorry Schister)

Returning mons (slight spoilers if you don't want to know)

Of the returning mons there's not really anything that looks problematic these seem pretty tame, obviously is banned in SM but that's more a specific metagame thing and it's pretty mediocre in SS (not even duu, lol) and the odds of that changing are quite slim.

I do think has the potential to be extremely annoying and stupid and unfun with tera but we'll have to see.

New mons (spoilers kinda)

Of the new mons we don't have enough info yet for any kind of definitive determination but I would like to note there was a rumor that Ogerpon had a 665 BST and if it does end up with something like that it obviously shouldn't be around so just want to bring that up in case it's something like that.

From what's been datamined so far my impression is that the new Ursaluna doesn't seem that bad but considering the other form got banned before it's probably worth keeping an eye on.

Largely agree with Eragon here, with a bit to add on Ursaluna specifically. Since the ban of Ursaluna, Landorus and Rillaboom have risen to the forefront of the metagame, and Cresselia has remained a presence that everyone has to prepare for. When ursaluna was dominating the tier, I found Landorus and Rillaboom to be very good answers to it, but these mons were not nearly as popular at the time as the metagame was still forming and people hadn't picked up on their incredible utility, so if the bear were to be unbanned I think the metagame would be much more naturally prepared to deal with it than it was before, with players also more prepared to deal with cress enabling it given the time we've had to grow accoustomed to its schenanigans. If Rillaboom gets grassy glide back i firmly believe ursa deserves a shot at playing in the tier again.

 

[Actuarily]

Wanted to quickly give my personal thoughts for the first slate, where we’re voting on previously banned elements.

Basically, when you look at what’s coming in the DLC, there isn’t a whole lot of relevant Pokémon outside of the newcomers (which we don’t know a ton about as of yet). My estimates for returning Pokémon:

Relevant:
- Kingdra
- Politoed

Might be relevant:
- Kommo-o
- Ninetales
- Ninetales-Alola
- Milotic

So obviously not a whole lot. A few different weather mons and there’s a few others that may possibly be relevant. As for the new Pokémon, I’ve heard so many conflicting things I really don’t know what to believe, so I’m thinking that we just wait and see on these.

Since there’s just not a ton of changes, or the changes we don’t know much about, I am just going to vote the null hypothesis and vote everything to stay as is for now, meaning everything that is banned to stay banned. By the 17th we will have a lot more information (especially as far as movesets go), and I can make a much more informed decision then.

 

[qsns]

voted DOU on Ursaluna and Rapid Strike Urshifu.

Urshifu-R:

This is entirely to see in a metagame test whether Grassy Glide Rillaboom is enough to contain it. Very ready to be wrong on this and vote Ban in the future, but the current issue is that Tailwind + Surging Strikes does not have great counterplay right now and would like to give this a test. It is probably still dumb

Ursaluna:

I think that this could be dropped into the metagame now and we'd be fine. It'd be powerful, but fine. I think the community has gotten a lot better at punishing Cresselia-based strategies and even though this is a big power upgrade on them, there's counterplay such as Palafin, 50% usage Lando-T, and just out offensing the TR once it's down with Pokemon like Chi-Yu/Flutter or Basc-F that have risen a lot since R1 of OSDT.

Rest of the elements I believe to be fundamentally uncompetitive/game-warping (Tatsugiri, STag, Annihilape) or too high of a power level with not much new to come check it (Single strike, Basculegion, Magearna), though these all could change given more information on the new 'mons.

 

[Actuarily]

The council has voted on the pre-release slate. Genone abstained from this vote, so a 4/6 threshold is required for an element to change tiers. Results below:

Therefore, Ursaluna has been freed to DOU for the post DLC1 metagame! The next slate will occur in a few days on Sunday the 17th, and the Ogerpon mask forms might be eligible on that slate. If you think they should be, or have any other thoughts on the metagame, please post below!

 

[Smudge]

I don't think I've ever written a DOU meta post, so forgive me if this sucks.

Dark Void is really stupid, and needs to go, immediately. (Preferably before the slate...) I know council + TLs is aware of this being an issue of some kind at least, as we experimented with it in room tours earlier. Obviously I don't know what's going on in council chat. I've been working on a team on and off today to figure out how to better abuse it, rather than just clicking raw Dark Void, based off my team that I used against Nido and Hys, and here's what I've come up with.

The paste

This isn't even close to fully optimized, whatsoever. I think the team is actually kind of bad, but it's still working and that's how broken this setup is.

You only have 3 mandatory slots, being Darkrai (obviously), Dipplin or Skymin, or another mon that increases Void accuracy, and Tornadus. You absolutely need to be able to match Tailwind and cannot let Trick Room go up. The rest is completely customizable. I picked Hands for Fake Out support, and Bundle is nice because you have super accurate Hydros with Skymin + a water type and speed dropping for stuff that's faster than Darkrai, such as Flutter if you roll a bad matchup and need to risk the raw Void. Not sure about the Chi-Yu slot, but it works fine.

Anyways, Since the start of the DLC stuff being revealed, people have been theorycrafting how Dipplin would be used best with the evasion drop it offers, and it was a topic of conversation in the ND DOU Discord that Dark Void and Dipplin might pair well.

I wasn't satisfied with how inaccurate Void still was at only 1 stage, and thinking about another conversation we had in the ND DOU discord where people were trying Sweet Scent Illumise since it offers -2 evasion rather than Dipplin's -1.

I checked for other Sweet Scent users, and found Skymin. Luckily enough, Skymin outspeeds Darkrai, so using Illumise isn't _super_ necessary, though I think Prankster Sweet Scent is pretty cool still, but I wanted more offensive presence from the slot and to be able to beat Shiftry, which was actually annoying my previous version.

I don't have any replays of amazing quality against good players as I was just laddering with it (my main account is pretty low, I don't enjoy laddering at all... until now ), but here are some showing the basic idea of how it works.

You change leads based on what the opponent has, and cheese them.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9doublesou-1943076562-prsej6zlih495b6h3g3u3k6j21a6tr6pw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9doublesou-1943086171-uacp87a78ez8qegdzoetbpj4swh3rzmpw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9doublesou-1943090242-csrrsq8jk6v57mnzyiwvdglqcyy8k8bpw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9doublesou-1943100551-vs3tvyrnz24or82kkgoz04crollwhx5pw

There's also a couple of policy issues at hand here, one of them being that sweet scent kind of bypasses the Gravity Sleep clause, but I'm not sure of the entire basis of this rule. This setup definitely feels like it falls afoul of it, at least in spirit, but it's obviously not as persistent as Gravity, so that's probably why it's not included.

The other being: what to do about Dark Void? Do you ban it or Darkrai? Typically, Smogon Policy dictates that you'd ban the mon, however Doubles has precedent to have Dark Void banned by itself. The question is, will this ban hold up to modern standards, with tiering policy being stricter and us being an official tier? Precedent only exists until it's no longer precedent, and it may not be worth fighting the battle just to preserve Darkrai. I think in principle it is, but after the Commander issue, I strongly doubt it will be tolerated.

In ND DOU, a community survey poll had 75% of 32 respondents prefer action on Dark Void rather than Darkrai itself, with only 9.4% thinking that it should be Darkrai. We ended up (unanimously) banning Dark Void, but the expectation for a unofficial ND sub tier to strictly follow policy isn't nearly as high as an official tier.

edit: bonus replay that got it banned from natdex
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/...-1915834559-p1v2q9gbdc61jtps77z60ec1ohuq8xqpw

edit 2: just ban one of them I don't actually care which btw to be clear. if Darkrai has to go, so be it.

 

[Actuarily]

The council has voted on the first slate post release of The Teal Mask DLC. On this slate, we voted on everything that was included on the pre-release slate, as well as Dakrai and Jirachi, as they would have been included on the slate had we known they were coming in the DLC, as they both were banned in the previous generation that they were available.

In order for a Pokémon to change tiers, a 5/7 vote is required. The results of the vote are below:

As a result, Darkrai has been banned from SV DOU! We are tagging Kris to implement, thanks!!

The next slate will take place on the 24th, and new Pokémon will be eligible to be included on that slate. Post below if you feel any Pokémon should be included on that slate, or any of your other thoughts on the metagame!

 

[Actuarily]

Wanted to give some quick reasonings for my personal votes on the slate.

Ultimately I don’t think The Teal Mask has changed the metagame that much, so predominately the stuff that was banned previously should remain banned in my opinion. But to go by each vote:

The combination of Soul Heart + great typing + good bulk means this Pokémon is likely too much for dou, and nothing in the dlc really made me think differently.

There’s still only a couple of reliable switchins to Wicked Blow, and obviously you can’t protect to play around it. But I do think there’s some more fairies & fighting mons eligible, so perhaps as we understand this metagame more I might feel differently about single strike.

The Tatsugiri + Dondozo combo is still as uncompetitive as ever, and while it can be checked, doing so requires such limited options that it really distorts teambuilding.

Annihilape is still wayyy too good as a set up option, behind good bulk, Rage Fist, Defiant, and good offensive coverage, especially with Tera options.

Shadow Tag: The gothitelle line with fake out + shadow tag is still just an oppressive force, able to prevent switching and immobilize one opponent for a turn so that you can take out the slot.

While Rillaboom did get grassy glide again, the nerf really hurt its ability to check Urshifu-RS, and the Tornadus + Urshifu-RS combo still seems too strong for the metagame. This is especially true when Urshifu-RS can just Tera to further strengthen Surging Strikes, or into a way better defensive typing.

Ursaluna has been freed, but I think it will probably require the banhammer again. Grassy Glide gives slightly more counterplay, but I still think Cresselia + Ursaluna is way too strong of a combination, and the DLC didn’t give us much more in the way of counters.

This one I am the most on the fence of, as similar to many others grassy glide being reintroduced does give some more counterplay, even if it’s not a 100% ko on scarf:
252+ Atk Rillaboom Grassy Glide vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Basculegion in Grassy Terrain: 356-422 (93.4 - 110.7%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
But other than that, not much new stuff has been introduced that would be a Basculegion counter, so for now I’m sticking with keeping it banned.

Similar to Tatsugiri, Dakrai is very uncompetitive with Dark Void able to put to sleep both opposing slots, and Darkrai can be countered, it requires such specific checks that it really limits teambuilding in the metagame.

The reason Jirachi has been banned previously is due to its good bulk, solid typing, and ability to redirect with follow me. Since it no longer has access to follow me, I don’t think it has any reason to be banned.

 

[Actuarily]

The next quickban slate has been completed! On this slate, by council recommendation, Ogerpon & it’s forms were included.

In order for a Pokémon to change tiers, a 5/7 vote is required. The results of the vote are below:

As a result, Basculegion has been freed to DOU! Tagging Kris to implement, thanks!!

The next & final quickban slate will take place place on October the 1st. Post below if you feel any Pokémon should be included on that slate, or any of your other thoughts on the metagame!

 

[mimi]

As a result, Basculegion has been freed to DOU!

not sure about this one chief

 

[Actuarily]

Just wanted to quickly give my reasonings on some of my votes, especially the ones that changed from last slate.

The Ogerpon forms are each quite good, but I haven’t seen enough from them that would make them bannable. I’d say the Hearthflame mask form is t1 (and is the closest to being banworthy), Wellspring is t2 for it’s great support, and cornerstone is t3.

& As we’ve begun to see, grassy glide being reintroduced in SV alongside the Ogerpon forms has really made grass-weak Pokémon take a beating. So both of these Pokémon who are grass weak and rely on attacking first to ko before they take damage back are in a much more difficult position. As previously I was very on the fence with each, this has put me in the belief that they should be freed so we can see how they feel in the metagame.

 

[GW8]

The next quickban slate has been completed! On this slate, by council recommendation, Ogerpon & it’s forms were included.

In order for a Pokémon to change tiers, a 5/7 vote is required. The results of the vote are below:
View attachment 555222

As a result, Basculegion has been freed to DOU! Tagging Kris to implement, thanks!!

The next & final quickban slate will take place place on October the 1st. Post below if you feel any Pokémon should be included on that slate, or any of your other thoughts on the metagame!

One Fish
Two Fish
Last Fish
Respect Fish

 

[mimi]

My thoughts on the meta and the state of SV DOU as a whole and are not of the positive nature and since Actu wants people to post about it, figured I finally will share those in a place other than DMs.

To start things off I'll say that despite the meta currently being one that's more offensively based and one that I personally play better in, I don't think it's a good meta in the slightest and I think there are things that shouldn't exist within DOU and should have been banned for quite some time by this point. First and foremost i'd also like to say i'm not really blaming the tier leaders for how they've handled the meta other than some questionable unbans or lack-there-of suspects on some broken things like Flutter Mane, but I will get into all that later. I think Pokemon in itself has create an issue with some of the Pokemon released this generation and the base mechanics in the game.

I'm not always the best at articulating my thoughts but here we go as I try to give this a shot. Ive had this conversation over the past few weeks with a few different people including Nido-Rus and most recently Grandmas Cookin , where i've come to the conclusion in my head that Pokemon has started to create Pokemon with stats so obscenely high you're forced into doing things with your team. Currently, the meta right now is basically either use Ogerpon + Rilla, a TR team with Ursa, or some Chien-Pao shenanigans cause it’s good into Ogerpon teams. All of these things have pretty much the same thing in common, you're relying entirely on your speed control to win the game or you're just trying to blow everything up before your opponent can do anything. The speed tiers in DOU have increased so much this generation that you're essentially forced to run Prankster Tailwind to even stand a chance at keeping up with some of the top level threats in the tier like Flutter Mane, Chien-Pao, Ogerpon, Torn and that's reliant on your opponent not just doing the same thing. Bulky teams are struggling to stay afloat because things just hit so hard now and Trick Room is still good because Luna threatens killing everything on your team if you dont have a way to deal with it while Trick Room is up. I genuinely don't think that the current meta is 'healthy' and I don't really think it has been all generation. Does Tera amplify these issues? Probably??? But who knows. Again, i'd like to reiterate that i'm not blaming the Tier Leaders or Council for this but more the design of Pokemon the game itself and some of the just absurd monsters that have been released this (and last) generation.

So what could be done about this without banning half of the top end Pokemon in the tier is the question we now ask ourself? Of course, going ban happy isn't the way to do things, nor is that what i'm necessarily suggesting to do, because I myself don't even know what i'm suggesting. I think there's a lot of unhealthy Pokemon currently, and an unhealthy mechanic outright. First and foremost I think Flutter Mane is way to fast, hits way to hard and has way-to-good of typing to exist within DOU and I am of the opinion that Pokemon should have never been freed from Ubers. Second I think the Ruin abilities are extremely unhealthy and create many different situations where teams are crippled at Team Preview. Third, I think Last respects is a silly ass move that shouldn't exist within the tier at all, it effects games in such a negative way where simply having Basculegion alive in the end game can be too much for your opponent to overcome. Finally, I think Prankster Tailwind and Dynamic Speed is the biggest mistake Pokemon has ever made and creates such an unhealthy metagame filled with so much momentum shifts that it becomes borderline unplayable and matchup reliant.

Never mind that I think Last Respects should be banned and not Basculegion, or that we shouldn't have freed Basculegion if we can't ban last respects, I have a hard time understanding how we're voting to free things at all JUST because DLC came out while Derby just finished and we have 3 different Pokemon over 50% usage within the Tier. Do we really think that screams a healthy metagame? This isn't GSC where you should be using Snorlax 100% of the time, yet your team is probably worse if you don't use Flutter Mane on every single one.

 

[Kenpwnchi]

I'm kinda concerned about Basculegion-M being freed (given its reputation), but it is what it is. As Actuarily said, I do think that the core of Ogerpon + Rillaboom is more than enough to keep Basculegion-M in check, but only time will tell.

 

[Bughouse]

As far as I am aware the policy on retests from Ubers is still this:
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threa...-threshold-for-ou-tests.3662873/#post-8526848

For council bans to Ubers, 2/3 is the correct margin, and therefore given 7 council members, a 5/7 vote to ban would be required, so that direction seems fine. But if something was already in DUbers and it now got 4/7 to become DOU it should be freed (i.e. Urshifu Rapid Strike).

 

[Actuarily]

As far as I am aware the policy on retests from Ubers is still this:
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threa...-threshold-for-ou-tests.3662873/#post-8526848

For council bans to Ubers, 2/3 is the correct margin, and therefore given 7 council members, a 5/7 vote to ban would be required, so that direction seems fine. But if something was already in DUbers and it now got 4/7 to become DOU it should be freed (i.e. Urshifu Rapid Strike).

Hey so the post you linked isn’t the most recent policy, here’s a more up to date version that shows it’s a 2/3 council majority to both ban & unban: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/let-lower-tiers-leave-alpha-a-bit-sooner.3715430/post-9517741

 

[Bughouse]

Hey so the post you linked isn’t the most recent policy, here’s a more up to date version that shows it’s a 2/3 council majority to both ban & unban: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/let-lower-tiers-leave-alpha-a-bit-sooner.3715430/post-9517741

"This number at least makes it so there has to be over a majority of council support in order to ban a mon or element from a tier without public input, and hopefully makes it so more tiering actions can be done with public testing, especially those that now fall between the 50->66% range, which prior would have been a ban."

This did not change anything with respect to unbans as far as I am aware. shiloh

Frankly, if it did change the unban policy, that is a clear mistake. You now have a situation where 4/7 of the council wants to free a mon which was initially also council banned, and yet it's not free? At the very least that should require a public suspect test to decide its fate. If it had been a 4/7 council vote to ban it pre-DLC and a 4-7 council vote to ban it now, it would still be free. But because it was a 5/7 to ban before and a 3/7 to keep it banned now it stays banned? That would be totally nonsensical.

 

[Arcticblast]

The thread you linked specifically states that a suspect test on a Pokemon banned by council vote will only require a simple majority to unban the Pokemon in question.

Additionally, if we unban Urshifu I am quitting until the problem is fixed. Thank you and have a good day. (I would promise a post on the format, but considering I have failed to keep my past promises about format posts, I will not promise a post)

 

[Bughouse]

The thread you linked specifically states that a suspect test on a Pokemon banned by council vote will only require a simple majority to unban the Pokemon in question.

Additionally, if we unban Urshifu I am quitting until the problem is fixed. Thank you and have a good day. (I would promise a post on the format, but considering I have failed to keep my past promises about format posts, I will not promise a post)

I'm sure you realize this argument doesn't track at all and are just being contrarian because you don't like Urshifu which is fine, but I mean be serious. If you have a problem with the mon, take it up with the 4/7 of the council who voted to unban it.

Suspect tests take generally 50%+1 or 60% to ban, while a council ban requires MORE than that, i.e. 2/3. The reason for requiring more for a council to ban something than we do for the general public is because it has lower level of public input and lower sample size. You need to have a higher degree of consensus that the mon needs to be banned before you do so without a public test. The default is that any given Pokemon should be free, until and unless it is banned. Therefore certainly to unban something, it shouldn't be any higher than the same 50%+1 for a council to act to drop something as it would be for a public suspect test.

 

[Arcticblast]

It isn't an argument - that policy does, in fact, apply specifically to suspect tests. If you think this policy should be changed, you are more than welcome to post your own thread in the Policy Review subforum and try to convince site leaders to change it. Personally, I would love to move the entire site's tiering philosophy toward one that accepts that certain Pokemon are just awful to have around and shouldn't be legal, but that requires more than a single thread.

And trust me, I have made my thoughts quite clear to the TLs, the council members, and the rest of the DOU community ever since the Pokemon was released, and now that I'm playing VGC on top of DOU, my opinions on Urshifu have only become more intense. In fact, this time they're actually backed by gameplay, whereas I didn't play SS DOU (in no small part because of Urshifu). They are all quite negative thoughts, and I think the TLs and council members are all quite tired of hearing me state those thoughts.

For anyone who IS interested in my thoughts though, I'll write them down! I'll focus on Rapid Strike, since that's the one in question, and I'll put it in hide tags because the Pokemon is not currently legal.

Hide

Urshifu is able to ignore every single form of damage mitigation in the entire game, save four:
- Burn (usually inflicted by Fire types, which lose to Urshifu)
- Tablets of Ruin (exclusive to Wo-Chien, who does not actually reliably beat Urshifu)
- Snow's Defense boost to Ice types (most of which lose to Urshifu anyway)
- Type resistance.
You cannot Intimidate an Urshifu. You cannot use Reflect against an Urshifu. You cannot attempt to boost your Defense against an Urshifu. You cannot try to outplay an Urshifu by clicking Protect, one of the most fundamental moves in the format. Sure, some of these apply to Close Combat, but Urshifu will never click Close Combat unless you have two Water resists in play. This leaves your only reliable counterplay to Urshifu as "kill it before it can kill you," which I believe is an unreasonable ask in a metagame packed to the gills with powerful speed control and redirection.

Even Flutter Mane, one of the most powerful Pokemon we've ever seen, cannot actually reliably defeat Urshifu, given the ability to Terastallize and the variety of items the two Pokemon can run. Choice Specs Flutter can OHKO, but it loses to Scarf Urshifu. Booster Energy Flutter Mane can outrun Scarf Urshifu, but can't reliably OHKO bulkier sets like Assault Vest, and if it doesn't hit a specific speed benchmark, it doesn't outrun Urshifu in Tailwind.

I believe many of the votes to unban Urshifu were made under the assumption that Grassy Glide, Sinistcha, and Ogerpon would be enough new additions to check it. While I won't deny that yes, these are new checks, I believe that the sheer power of Urshifu forcing you to run one of these Pokemon is unhealthy for the format. In a meta full of offensive titans, if the only reliable answer to Urshifu is one of a small list of Pokemon with poor matchups into the rest of the format, then you are left with no option but "be more offensive," and I think that is a dangerous direction for DOU to move in. Even if you end up bringing a couple answers to Urshifu, the strain it puts on the game and in the teambuilder will usually leave you on the back foot against Urshifu, either because you've neglected answers to another threat, or because your answers in the game can't answer every single Surging Strikes.

The Pokemon is just ludicrous, and I am very serious in stating that I will not play SV DOU if Urshifu is unbanned, unless it is a suspect test where I can vote to ban Urshifu. I believe we cannot possibly have a healthy and fun format if Urshifu is legal. (I will probably continue to bring it to future VGC events, because I like winning, but that's neither here nor there.)

 

[Bughouse]

there's 4/7 council members who wanted it to be free, including one of the TLs (cough Yoda cough). someone else can make the policy thread if they actually want it to be free. And I assume they do given they voted DOU.

 

[Actuarily]

The final council quickban slate has been completed! The same Pokémon from the last slate were included.

In order for a Pokémon to change tiers, a 5/7 vote is required. The results of the vote are below:

As a result, there are no changes to any Pokémon’s eligiblity.

As this was the last council quickban slate, moving forward we will be focusing on using suspect tests. To help determine which Pokémon the council should focus on, we’ve put together a quick survey to get community feedback. Of course, we also encourage everyone to post below their feedback or thoughts on the metagame!

 

[Grandmas Cookin]

why was flutter mane not on this slate? its had the most public outcry about being broken. practically required to have a competitive team outside a couple teams that abuse the other brokens still present in the tier.

im still in complete disbelief that a majority of council think basculegion is fine, this mon is not fine. it gained 2 checks since being banned and one of them requires another to actually count since without rillaboom, ogerpon cant grassy glide it for priority, this is not a healthy restriction in the builder. this genuinely feels like our supposed representatives are actively working against the tiers health.

 

[qsns]

fwiw as someone who has brought up flutter to council as an issue - I personally think this is something that should be a suspect test. It's been a metagame staple for a while and (imo) not particularly egregious until sets outside of the dex spread were used in the context of offense. I think this should be our first priority after getting rid of Basc in a suspect test (I guess...). I would definitely vote ban at this point, but would prefer more community input.

I don't think much actually changed for Basculegion - Rillaboom isn't enough. I think it's pretty stupid that voting thresholds went from 4/7 was enough for DUbers to 4/7 being not enough because it was dropped into DOU for a week and got to terrorize the seasonal. I am going to be much more liberal with my ban votes in the future given this (and I'm already pretty damn liberal with them), and think it's more conducive to having a fun metagame instead of trudging through an obvious ban vote for a month.