Announcement NP: Thunder - Champions OU Suspect Test

[swordisbored]

Hello everyone, the OU tiering council has decided to test Mega Raichu Y!

Since its release Mega Raichu Y has been a hot topic in Champions OU and being among one of the biggest powerhouses in the tier should be no surprise. Not only is it one of the fastest Pokemon in the tier but one of the strongest too with powerful moves to boot! With the arrival of Regulation M-C, the Champions OU council believes that Mega Raichu Y is worthy of a suspect test and that its fate should be in the playerbase's hands.

Despite limited call for action in the last tiering survey, the metagame has shifted drastically with Mega Raichu Y being more at the forefront. Not only has it seen a substantial uptick in usage on ladder but also during CHAMPL I too. Still, this rodent has found itself on the council's radar for a while as we awaited Regulation M-C to shift the metagame before making a definitive decision. Despite the changes, whether the shifts in the metagame brought about by this regulation reduced Mega Raichu Y's prowess or not is debatable.

Mega Raichu Y's main claim to fame is its high Speed and Special Attack paired with Zap Cannon in tandem with No Guard, not only allowing it to threaten just about anything in front of it but any potential switchins too— not only dishing out enough damage to 2HKO just about any opponent but also paralysing them in the process. The obvious solution to this is to use a Ground-type such as Garchomp, Excadrill or Hippowdon though this is where Mega Raichu Y's great coverage comes into play with Alluring Voice, Focus Blast and Grass Knot hitting these foes respectively. As for its low defenses, these are easy to play around with said high Speed and Special Attack, not only outspeeding the opponent in front of it but likely OHKOing it outright with such great power. In the few cases where Mega Raichu Y is incapable of doing so, it can opt for Volt Switch— allowing it to deal considerable damage before switching to a bulkier teammate to take the hit which it commonly finds itself on teams with. A common way to try to deal with Mega Raichu Y comes in the form of priority with the most common amongst those being Sucker Punch which it commonly attempts to sidestep by using Substitute, allowing it an even more commanding position and forces uncompetitive mindgames.

However, Mega Raichu Y is checked effectively by common Choice Scarf users who can even use the opportunity to use a pivoting move on Mega Raichu Y. As well as this, it is capable of being checked by common Megas such as Mega Lopunny who can not only outspeed it but threaten to KO it on slower sets with Fake Out + Mach Punch along with Mega Dragalge and Mega Meganium who check it defensively. As well as this, Regulation M-C has brought two more faster Mega Evolutions into the tier along with Rillaboom who not only resists Zap Cannon but can threaten it hard with a powerful priority Grassy Glide.

The instructions to participate in this test are as follows:

• Create a new account on PS. You do not have to follow any specific naming convention, but your suspect account must have never played a game in Champions OU before this suspect test went up or you will not receive valid requirements (resetting W/L does not count for this - the account you use must never have played Champions OU before the test, full stop.​
• At any point on your new account, use the command /linksmogon on Pokemon Showdown! You will receive instructions on what to do once you run this command.​
• Double check that you're listed as a voter here! If you aren't listed as a voter despite having valid reqs, please contact myself, dhelmise , or a member of staff.​
• If you have any questions about this new process, feel free to PM me.​

The requirement to vote in this suspect test is a COIL value of 2800 or having won 4 games in Champions OU during CHAMPL I. The deadline for getting requirements will be Monday, October 5th at 6:59AM GMT +1.

 

[AuroraOurania]

Well, as seems to be a tradition, I went to check a calc and my phone decided to throw out everything I had written.

My overall point is that raichu is very frail, and runs into serious issues due to that. With my previous team before trying out mega Raichu y, I picked number two on ladder, with a mega absol z team I built. So while I'm not a competitive level player, I am capable of building and playing well enough to face people on very high ladder and succeed. I have been trying it in a few different teams, both a few that I made and one that someone else sent me. And I'm just not really finding it as overbearing as people are claiming. It has a huge amount of trouble getting in safely, and most of the slow pivots that can bring it in safely have themselves switch-ins that can take a hit from Raichu and ko you back. It folds to literally any priority other than bullet punch, and even that does a decent amount. It drops to any scarfer, and teams pretty frequently are running dragapult or one of the megas that naturally outspeed it. While is very threatening to switch in against, I have found that, because literally any switch in threatens it out, it needs to be picking up KOs every single time it comes out to really wind up being as dominant as people perceive it as being. Yeah maybe my glowking is at 70% and can't survive two hits from zap Cannon, but it puts a lot of pressure on my opponent because either they predict it is coming in and potentially let garchomp in for free, or they predict garchomp and click alluring voice, and let glowking in for free. In either situation, you have ended up making minimal progress, and if you do decide to be aggressive, you either lose your raichu or you take 50% from sludge bomb, or I just click chilly reception and bring in my scarf sammurot or pult or whatever I have that offensively checks Raichu. And because one of the best checks is galarian slowking, a Pokemon that is infamously hard to get rid of, and because most teams have a priority user, a scarfer, or very frequently both, it winds up fairly hard to actually sweep with Raichu. Which is a problem because it is just to frail to get in repeatedly in order to really break a team down for something else to sweep. In my experience, using it to try to break, I get it in for free off a u-turn against a corviknight switch in, click substitute to try to minimize prediction, then get like 75% total on their switch in, which frequently is either a glowking that will heal it off easily, or a pivot that forces me to click something that lets dragapult or something else that outspeeds or threatens with priority in for free.

Which gets to another issue. You have pretty great coverage, but even assuming you have all of the right coverage for your opponent's team, which is by no means guaranteed, you have to deal with the fact that prediction is very dangerous for Raichu. Even if someone just decides to risk sacking their corv and clicks u turn when you click alluring voice, or into you as you substitute, you are taking enough damage to break a substitute, and bringing you down enough that the few things that you can survive are pretty much no longer survivable at all. I'm using a comparatively extreme example with corviknight, but playing with it on ladder, I have just found that people are pretty frequently able to force me to choose between making a prediction that can lose me my Raichu if I'm wrong, or picking the safe option that doesn't actually give me enough progress to justify the amount of resources I have spent setting Raichu up for the opportunity.

I think people are getting really caught up in the offensive calculations. Seeing something do like 40 into a specially defensive glowking with a special move, or doing however much damage to garchomp with alluring voice, looks pretty impressive. But doing that once doesn't actually win you the game. You need to either punch a strong hole in the opposing team, or be able to hit hard repeatedly, breaking down your opponent's checks. And while right you can do that, it does not do it consistently enough, or easy enough, to justify a ban in my opinion.

I also feel like people are seeing a strong move with guaranteed paralysis and responding based on their experience with paralysis overall, rather than paralysis in this specific game. The chance of full paralysis got heavily nerfed in champions, as I'm sure y'all are aware. Which ultimately means that a paralysis against something like rillaboom or glowking is not typically super meaningful. Functionally, the main thing that it does is mean that somebody can't switch in something like scarf meowscarada or pult, except on a prediction that you are clicking something like grass knot or substitute. That is definitely strong, and helps make it harder to check, but that is not like how paralysis is in scarlet and violet, where you will regularly paralyze something like glowking or alomomola, and gain significant momentum over the course of the game from doing so. That can happen, but it is not consistent enough to be something to make decisions around.

I think it is also worth mentioning that Raichu offers a team nothing defensively. Technically it provides an electric immunity before megaing, but even that requires you to make hard predictions or know that a rotom or something is locked in. That overall weakens the team, especially considering that, in my opinion, Raichu is too frail to be consistent on hyper offense. It's a Pokemon that needs a defensive backbone to fall back on, as well as pivots to bring it in. Otherwise you end up just doing 80% to something and then dying.

I think it's also worth keeping in mind that, broadly speaking, I expect raichu to become less potent, both if hamu gets banned, because most of it's checks are hit by spikes, and over time as we get better ground type options, more priority, and more dragon and grass types that can act as secondary checks on a team

 

[OatIsHere]

https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/champions-ou-metagame-discussion.3780363/post-11132477

These are my thoughts in this smogon post, but to summarise ychu is already quite manageable and with the eventually suspect of hammu, a partner in crime to ychu it will become even more managable.

 

[OatIsHere]

Well, as seems to be a tradition, I went to check a calc and my phone decided to throw out everything I had written.

My overall point is that raichu is very frail, and runs into serious issues due to that. With my previous team before trying out mega Raichu y, I picked number two on ladder, with a mega absol z team I built. So while I'm not a competitive level player, I am capable of building and playing well enough to face people on very high ladder and succeed. I have been trying it in a few different teams, both a few that I made and one that someone else sent me. And I'm just not really finding it as overbearing as people are claiming. It has a huge amount of trouble getting in safely, and most of the slow pivots that can bring it in safely have themselves switch-ins that can take a hit from Raichu and ko you back. It folds to literally any priority other than bullet punch, and even that does a decent amount. It drops to any scarfer, and teams pretty frequently are running dragapult or one of the megas that naturally outspeed it. While is very threatening to switch in against, I have found that, because literally any switch in threatens it out, it needs to be picking up KOs every single time it comes out to really wind up being as dominant as people perceive it as being. Yeah maybe my glowking is at 70% and can't survive two hits from zap Cannon, but it puts a lot of pressure on my opponent because either they predict it is coming in and potentially let garchomp in for free, or they predict garchomp and click alluring voice, and let glowking in for free. In either situation, you have ended up making minimal progress, and if you do decide to be aggressive, you either lose your raichu or you take 50% from sludge bomb, or I just click chilly reception and bring in my scarf sammurot or pult or whatever I have that offensively checks Raichu. And because one of the best checks is galarian slowking, a Pokemon that is infamously hard to get rid of, and because most teams have a priority user, a scarfer, or very frequently both, it winds up fairly hard to actually sweep with Raichu. Which is a problem because it is just to frail to get in repeatedly in order to really break a team down for something else to sweep. In my experience, using it to try to break, I get it in for free off a u-turn against a corviknight switch in, click substitute to try to minimize prediction, then get like 75% total on their switch in, which frequently is either a glowking that will heal it off easily, or a pivot that forces me to click something that lets dragapult or something else that outspeeds or threatens with priority in for free.

Which gets to another issue. You have pretty great coverage, but even assuming you have all of the right coverage for your opponent's team, which is by no means guaranteed, you have to deal with the fact that prediction is very dangerous for Raichu. Even if someone just decides to risk sacking their corv and clicks u turn when you click alluring voice, or into you as you substitute, you are taking enough damage to break a substitute, and bringing you down enough that the few things that you can survive are pretty much no longer survivable at all. I'm using a comparatively extreme example with corviknight, but playing with it on ladder, I have just found that people are pretty frequently able to force me to choose between making a prediction that can lose me my Raichu if I'm wrong, or picking the safe option that doesn't actually give me enough progress to justify the amount of resources I have spent setting Raichu up for the opportunity.

I think people are getting really caught up in the offensive calculations. Seeing something do like 40 into a specially defensive glowking with a special move, or doing however much damage to garchomp with alluring voice, looks pretty impressive. But doing that once doesn't actually win you the game. You need to either punch a strong hole in the opposing team, or be able to hit hard repeatedly, breaking down your opponent's checks. And while right you can do that, it does not do it consistently enough, or easy enough, to justify a ban in my opinion.

I also feel like people are seeing a strong move with guaranteed paralysis and responding based on their experience with paralysis overall, rather than paralysis in this specific game. The chance of full paralysis got heavily nerfed in champions, as I'm sure y'all are aware. Which ultimately means that a paralysis against something like rillaboom or glowking is not typically super meaningful. Functionally, the main thing that it does is mean that somebody can't switch in something like scarf meowscarada or pult, except on a prediction that you are clicking something like grass knot or substitute. That is definitely strong, and helps make it harder to check, but that is not like how paralysis is in scarlet and violet, where you will regularly paralyze something like glowking or alomomola, and gain significant momentum over the course of the game from doing so. That can happen, but it is not consistent enough to be something to make decisions around.

I think it is also worth mentioning that Raichu offers a team nothing defensively. Technically it provides an electric immunity before megaing, but even that requires you to make hard predictions or know that a rotom or something is locked in. That overall weakens the team, especially considering that, in my opinion, Raichu is too frail to be consistent on hyper offense. It's a Pokemon that needs a defensive backbone to fall back on, as well as pivots to bring it in. Otherwise you end up just doing 80% to something and then dying.

I think it's also worth keeping in mind that, broadly speaking, I expect raichu to become less potent, both if hamu gets banned, because most of it's checks are hit by spikes, and over time as we get better ground type options, more priority, and more dragon and grass types that can act as secondary checks on a team

I agree with most of this tbh, i think this was quite well written as well

 

[fluff!!]

Here is my case on Mega Raichu Y and why I will be voting BAN.

1. Zap Cannon is strong enough to be close to 2HKO special sponges such as Glowking
2. It has strong coverage that hits every Ground in the tier between Grass Knot, Focus Blast, Alluring Voice, and Surf
3. Volt Switch gives it a risk-free option that consistently maintains momentum while boasting decent damage

The coverage problem Mega Raichu Y might have against Grounds is not an issue as Focus Blast already hits all of them decently hard.

The problematic set is Zap Cannon/Volt Switch/Anti-ground coverage 1/Anti-ground coverage 2.

I will start by stating that Spikes (Ceaseless Edge) support is hardly needed, and you really only need Stealth Rock. This is sufficient to give Raichu-Y a good shot at 2HKOing Glowking which is all that matters. The Ground switch-ins already need either little chip on them before Raichu-Y's coverage KOs them, or get barely 2HKOed to where Spikes damage is not relevant
Grass Knot vs. 32 HP / 27 SpD Hippowdon: 162-192 (75.3 - 89.3%)
Alluring Voice vs. 32 HP / 0 SpD Garchomp: 124-146 (57.6 - 67.9%)
Focus Blast vs. 32 HP / 32+ SpD Excadrill: 150-178 (69.1 - 82%)
Garchomp has no recovery and will need to take damage from other mons anyway so it's very easy to chip, Excadrill is very much the same, and Hippowdon needs to stay super healthy which is very demanding considering, just like Garchomp, it's already tasked at handling other stuff so getting a mere 25% chip on it is overly simple.

A mon where Spikes help is Mega Dragalge, the only actual reliable Mega Raichu Y answer, but yet again Spikes aren't necessary. Stealth Rock + Zap Cannon on the switch + Volt Switch is more than enough to damage it past Regenerator healing, and god forbid if it Volt Switches right away into an Aegislash or something.

This is why Mega Raichu Y's pressure really shines: It needs very little to start pressuing KOs safely. Just Zap Cannon into what's in front of you, and if the defender's Ground has barely any chip there is no winning play outside of walking on a landmine for 10 turns trying to PP stall where Raichu can just keep clicking the super effective move freely. There are lines you can follow, like going on Hippowdon on a Zap Cannon, then into Mega Delphox on the Grass Knot, but these are inherently risky plays and often decide games for both players. There is very little skill involved from both parties, these are 50/50 situations in the Raichu player's advantage. If you watch ChamPL, many games were decided on Raichu getting the 50/50 correct/wrong and one side losing the game on the spot. This is not a skillful dynamic. The Raichu player also has the luxury of choosing to postpone a potential forced 50/50 to later if wanted.
The list of faster mons that can switch into its coverage is short and always liable to one of the coverage options Raichu would like to click on the Ground anyway: Mega Delphox gets hit by Surf, Dragapult by Alluring Voice, other stuff like Mega Lopunny just do not want to hard switch into any coverage.

Volt Switch elevates this to solidify my vote. If you are not looking to play the guessing game with Mega Raichu Y, it can decide to Volt Switch to do good damage and always win the interaction. Glowking cannot check Mega Raichu Y when it takes 40% from the initial Zap Cannon and 25% more from Volt Switch, and if you try to block the Volt Switch, you find yourself in the same 50/50 situation as before. This is regardless of any hazard being set.

Comparing this to another special attacker some players raise concern with (certainly not me though), Mega Floette.
The difference between the two is that Mega Floette does not have the luxury of the option of smashing switchins with its coverage or consistently gain momentum. It has to play the long game against Steels, Poisons, and Fires (Glowking, Toxapex, Aegislash, Volcarona, Ceruledge, Mega Metagross, Mega Scizor, Mega Golisopod - notice that the list is much longer than for Mega Raichu Y) against which Mega Floette actually requires Spikes support to break through - which would in fact mean that a Hamurott ban would nerf Mega Floette. And if it wants to play optimally, it needs to risk double switches to get past its counterplay, where Mega Raichu Y could just click Volt Switch and see what happens.

All in all, Mega Raichu Y is too good at making progress, it has too little solid counters, it requires very little skill to get high reward out of it, and is one of the most 50/50 inducing mons. In ChamPL there has been more game deciding 50/50s involving Mega Raichu Y than ones involving Kingambit.

Notice I haven't mentioned Zap Cannon paralysis. This is not a relevant part of the mon.

 

[Mr Zangler]

As the first to get reqs, let me introduce today's episode:

I laddered with these two teams, alternating every couple of battles:

SIRFETCH'D HEAT:

4A MAWILE:

Unlike the damp rock suspect I'm going to keep things brief. It's about 2AM where I'm from and I stayed up just to make sure I got reqs, but I'm going to try and give the best version of my reasoning that I can.

I am voting BAN on the mouse, and it's not a close decision. Raichu's presence is so unbelievably unhealthy both in the teambuilder and in game, and I do not believe that its frailty balances it out by any significant measure.

Thanks to the limited metagame, Raichu only really has to run 2 moves: Zap Cannon and Focus Blast (and focus blast is arguable as to whether it's required. Surf + Alluring work fine too). This leaves Raichu 2 free slots to do with as it pleases; it has all number of useful options--thanks in part to the Pikachu nepotism--including Volt Switch Surf, Alluring Voice, Grass Knot, Encore, Substitute, Fake Out, Nasty Plot, Endeavor, Draining Kiss, even Wish, as options. Most Raichu tend to run a combination of Zap/Blast/Volt + Sub or Alluring Voice, but Nasty Plot or Encore are always an option and it can just delete its checks. Zap Cannon's ability to neuter incoming would-be fast checks is uniquely detrimental, meaning the only reliable checks are A--the two OU ground types that get 2hkod by Focus Blast and Spdef Hippo (pray they're not running grass knot or surf)--and B--Slowking, which just gets absolutely fucked if it has to switch in more than once or Ychu hits that volt switch into something that threatens you. It's absolutely possible to beat it, certainly, but you either need to sack something to a para or play the long game and hope you get the turns right.

People hate Gambit for introducing 50/50 mindgames to every round in Scarlet and Violet, but never have I been forced into more 50/50s than against a well-played Raichu-Y.

Folks bring up priority a lot in discussions, but Raichu at full HP actually doesn't fall to most single priority moves. Even Black Glasses Gambit is a roll to KO. Anything that isn't boosted has a hard time picking off Raichu without 15-20% of chip, and this becomes especially problematic when even just the risk of a substitute or encore makes sucker punch extremely unreliable without information. Raichu also doesn't even HAVE to risk the roll in most situations, given it can just come back later when it's in a better position against your Primarina or Corviknight or Clefable or Quaquaval or Excadrill or whatever. In fact, most wins I get against Raichu players I literally have to hope and pray they try to push the advantage in a stupid way instead of making the safe play and switching out. The very most terrifying Raichu are safe Raichu that don't attempt to Focus Blast raw against an unrevealed Excadrill, for example, and would instead scout for Sash, Scarf or Chople.

(Here's an example of a replay where this exact scenario happened. I literally lost if they scouted--Raichu absolutely dogwalks that Mawile team.)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9championsou-2685631467-hak6tdm2u8gxcgt5lriqnrj4qvyfl3gpw

The takeaway here is that Raichu isn't frail for the same reason a Dragapult or Absol or Meowscarada or Greninja or Lopunny isn't frail. The Speed creates too many opportunities to take advantage of. You're simply not forced to take hits to deal damage the way something like a mid-speed pokemon might, and you just get to switch out if you're threatened. No biggie.

In any just world this thing gets banned. The hard truth is that Champions OU simply does not have the breadth of would-be checks to handle it. Watching it perform in ChampsPL has solidified what I already held to be an opinion:

Raichu is not a healthy presence, it wouldn't magically become healthy if Samurott got banned, Zap Cannon is a uniquely restricting offensive tool, and we don't have enough ground types!!!

Anyway. I'm tired of this pokemon. It should have been banned in M-B and I was proven right when I predicted on release how impossible it would be to switch into. It feels extremely restricting to play against, and especially so when it's someone who isn't just clicking buttons.

BAN BAN BAN.

 

[Dugtrio Is Broken]

I honestly dont understand why it took so long to ban raichu y, its a pkm that ohko or 2hkos practically the entire tier, including ground types, and its not exactly fun for ''entries'' to get full para by a stab w 120bp.

Another issue w raichu is that it fits very well alongside the tier's big 4 (gking / corv / samurott-h / chomp), this makes it possible to build a practically invincible team for the tier, that can only be stopped by a full CT or by playing smth close to a mirror match and outplaying the opp...

The proof of this: I used the same team in weeks 1, 2, 3, and 4 on champ pl and started the tour 4-0, when i decided to switch the team, i ended up losing 1 game, and guess which team i was using...

I'll send some replays with the team here:

Week 1: vs webs https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9championsou-963771
Week 2: vs same 5 w pult > clef https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9championsou-965134
Week 3: vs mega floette balance https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9championsou-966654?p2
Week 4: vs stall https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9championsou-967845?p2 this game illustrates how broken raichu is: on turn 6 it had kill 3 pokemon (in a stall) without taking a single hit...

https://pokepast.es/f83830dbeb29048a for anyone interested in the team, even with the release of the new pkm, raichu remains broken, its as if hardly anything has changed, now there is an "entry" (rillaboom) that can take a paralysis, and there is a faster pkm (mega absol) 32 SpA Raichu-Mega-Y Zap Cannon vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Absol-Mega-Z: 178-211 (127.1 - 150.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO. I wont mention mega chomp z bc its a bad pkm on the tier, and mega golisopod, sure, it might click a fimp on raichu, but all it’ll manage to do is deal 3% damage to the corv.

32 SpA Raichu-Mega-Y Zap Cannon vs. 32 HP / 32+ SpD Slowking-Galar: 81-96 (40 - 47.5%) -- 47.3% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

32 SpA Raichu-Mega-Y Alluring Voice vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Garchomp: 136-162 (74.3 - 88.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

32 SpA Raichu-Mega-Y Alluring Voice vs. 32 HP / 0 SpD Garchomp: 124-146 (57.6 - 67.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

32 SpA Raichu-Mega-Y Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 32 HP / 27 SpD Hippowdon: 162-192 (75.3 - 89.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

32 SpA Raichu-Mega-Y Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 32 HP / 32+ SpD Hippowdon: 142-168 (66 - 78.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

32 SpA Raichu-Mega-Y Focus Blast vs. 2 HP / 0 SpD Excadrill: 226-266 (120.8 - 142.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

32 SpA Raichu-Mega-Y Focus Blast vs. 32 HP / 32+ SpD Excadrill: 150-178 (69.1 - 82%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


Ban Raichu, that should have been banned a long time ago.

 

[Magcargo]

IDK if I'll have time to get reqs for this, but this Pokemon is very much an extremely easy ban as the metagame is currently.

The core reason Mega Raichu Y should be banned largely just comes down to the restrictions on the builder it places as there simply aren't enough reliable answers in this metagame to contain it.

Raichu Mega Y is very much similar to gen 8 Tapu Koko / Zeraora in that the average team will be relying on their Ground-type to keep it in check, except it has every tool imaginable to pressure if not outright KO these Ground-types between Surf, Grass Knot, Alluring Voice, Focus Blast, Knock Off, and so much more on top of NASTY PLOT that can just let it win the game outright. Additionally, unlike in Gen 8, I do not really believe the Specially defensive Ground-type such as Garchomp or Hippowdon are something that absolutely every team wants to run outside of handling Mega Raichu Y, as it makes their match-ups into other threats like Mega Charizard X (also broken), Blaziken, and Sneasler significantly worse. I think this is particular notable since Mega Raichu Y has tools to blow these Pokemon up anyways - with Grass Knot dealing over 60% to specially defensive Hippowdon and alluring Voice dealing over 40% to specially defensive Garchomp. This Pokemon does have other defensive checks, such as Mega Venusuar, Mega Meganium, and Mega Dragalge, but imo being forced to use these Pokemon is extremely restricting in the builder + get taken advantage by partner Gking quite easily.

This Pokemon does have a few notable flaws - very few safe switch-in oppurtunities due to its poor bulk, it can struggle trading positively in 1v1 Scenarios, and its very very vulnerable to priority, espicially combined with entry hazard chip. Additionally, while it does have many tools to bypass its counterplay -between Substitute for Sucker Punch, Grass Knot for Hippo, Alluring Voice for Garchomp, it can't run all of these at once, which is indeed a flaw given that this Pokemon's nature is either getting OHKO'd or being OHKOed. Random Scarfers are another annoyance as well. Even in "safe" match-ups such as against Samurott-H, this Pokemon can struggle for sure given that Scarf Razor shell almost outright OHKO's Mega Raichu-Y. That said, its really key to point out that many of these countermeasures are just flimsy at best and at the mercy of Mega Raichu-Y. If it clicks Focus Blast on the switch to Scarf Excadrill, if it clicks Sub on the Gambit going for Sucker Punch, if it clicks Grass Knot on the switch to spdef Hippowdon (putting it into Focus Blast range to the next time it switches in), it is often able to just run away with the game. Here is a recent replay of a game I played (with an admittingly trash team) where Mega Raichu was able to take advantage of the opponent's midground play (particularly the switch to Scarf Excadrill) to just run away with the match.

In general, a lot dealing with this Pokemon is just "praying" it doesn't do something or have a certain move which I believe to be quite unhealthy given its overall threat level. Perhaps in a later metagame with options like Clodsire or new checks like Scarf Landorus-T, this Pokemon might become more palatable, but as is it is, it should be banned.

 

[abd1710]

Not a Champions mainer but I always have fun in this tier when I play it. That said, I don't think Raichu is elite or unhealthy. It's good but not broken. It's really fragile so it can't switch in a lot, and it's not even the best mon in the tier. Banning it just may make the tier bit more uninteresting or unappealing, nothing more. I don't think it's ban worthy.

If you really want to nerf it, just focus on Zap Cannon, since No Guard is the only reason it's usable at all. Could just ban that instead of the mon.

Team used for reqs : TEAM (thanks Ultraman1)

That being said I will be voting DO NOT BAN

 

[jacko0]

One of the fastest mons in the tier strapped with a guaranteed hit 120 BP stab move coming off of 160 SpAtk that also paralyzes whatever it hits. This guy is the sworn enemy of offense and quite literally shreds through your team unless you have a Hippowdon or Glowking. It doesn't even need to trade damage because of its access to Volt Switch. Against bulkier teams using Ychu, you have to conserve your ground type (if you even have one) or you just lose long term to the insane damage and the fact that everyone is paralyzed.

If you're loading up offense against this thing, you need to keep hazards up, have multiple priority users, and also get every turn right.

This match I nearly threw in order to prepare for the Ychu that didn't even come out the pokeball until the end (other than to finish off glimm)

I really didn't think Ychu would last thing long lol (Ban Pod also)

Team used for reqs

It goes without saying that will be voting BAN on the industry plant mouse

 

[raffe]

Team used for reqs

It goes without saying that will be voting BAN on the industry plant mouse

Listen. I'm not a genius by any means. BUT I will say, ychu often does look like an Ubers mon when ur team has no damn electric resist.

 

[Mr Zangler]

“electric resist”

you need a ZAP cannon resist. that kind of resist doesn’t exist yet.

 

[t44Torkoal]

we can finally ban this thing! I got so tired of dealing with this motherfucker

 

[jacko0]

Listen. I'm not a genius by any means. BUT I will say, ychu often does look like an Ubers mon when ur team has no damn electric resist.

An Electric resist alone doesnt cut it lol, Zap Cannon does 40-50% on resist to mons that arent heavily SpDef invested. Not to mention that they get crippled for the rest of the match while having that 12.5% chance of just losing out on a turn.

Last regulation I was playing with Scarf Hydreigon and the resistance to Electric meant literally nothing especially after rocks, you just died to Focus Blast afterwards because of the para

Unless you have something entirely immune to electric then Ychu makes permanent progress on your team with every Zap Cannon click

 

[Magcargo]

I'll be real, I don't really consider para proc chances as something that breaks Ychu given how much para has been nerfed in champions - rather the issue is how it severely limits certain speed control's options as checks, namely the dragons like Dragapult or Hydreigon that could maybe pivot into it here and there but can't really because of Zap Cannon being so crippling.

I also think its important to mention that a lot of counterplay to ychu just gets invalidated by its most common partners, Gking and Corviknight, with random dark scarfers (which are strong to contain other threats like Mega Metagross and Delphox) not being able to really make progress freely vs Clefable as well. The team by Dugtrio is extremely good at showcasing this. In fact, this team has only gotten better as Corviknight can now run Helmet to punish these priority attackers, while Clefable can run Leftovers for general better match-ups.

Bans like on Ychu imo are just low impact that mostly brings benefit. YChu itself is going to be - generally - rare because of mega competition being so stringent, but winds up being one of those Pokemon that severly excentuates match-up issues because of how much pressure its exerting on battle. This pokemon is both a big threat in the short and long term because of how easily it breaks down its checks on its own, espicially if the Raichu player goes for greedier plays (like Zap Cannoning the opponent's Samurott because they know Sucker punch makes negative progress into an incoming switch-in or switching Raichu-Y into A Rotom-W Volt switch because the opponent knows that the pokemon loses momentum to Gking). The risk-reward for many interactions is just skewed too heavily into Raichu-Y's favor.

 

[skype]

i got reqs, despite somehow disconnecting twice in a row lol. i went into this expecting to vote ban but i think i'm actually leaning dnb

reqs

obviously is stupid. zap cannon is an absurd move when it can't miss, paralysis makes switching into it miserable, and nasty plot can get out of hand very quickly. i'm not trying to argue that the mon isn't insanely good, i just don't really feel like it's unmanageable in practice right now

i think a lot of the discussion around focuses on how difficult it is to switch into, which is fair, but i don't think it gets enough credit for how easy it is to force out or revenge kill. scarf and scarf are both very real forms of speed control into it, naturally outspeeds it, and does too. then you also have things like shadow sneak, and having both first impression and sucker punch. obviously isn't switching into any of this either because its physical bulk is terrible. a lot of the counterplay is offensive, but i don't really think that's inherently a problem in the current tier

there is defensive counterplay too. is still one of the better ones imo because it can take its special attacks and regen off the damage, although obviously you need to be careful around nasty plot. i don't think glowking is some hard counter, but riachu having ways around it doesn't suddenly make it irrelevant either

tank and have also felt more relevant lately, and i think that matters a lot. both make zap cannon considerably less free, and suddenly raichu actually has to care about what coverage it is running. if you're running the moves to punish those grounds then you're giving up something elsewhere, and if you're running nasty plot you're giving up another slot again. it can definitely tech for individual answers, but i think that's the main reason i'm leaning dnb

i also don't really buy "it has very few safe switch-ins" by itself as enough of a reason to ban something. if it was also difficult to revenge kill, had the bulk to repeatedly force progress, or could fit everything it wanted on one set, i'd probably be on the other side of this. but raichu is incredibly frail and the current meta has a pretty healthy amount of speed control and priority that actually threatens it

team i used for reqs:

team explanation

omg big 4 slop! i mostly just wanted to use because i think it's fun and so cute is probably its most important partner, since sd + encore puts a ton of pressure on , , and , while ceaseless edge also helps wear everything down for

is the main glue, improving the matchup while rocky helmet + rough skin + endure is really useful into all the physical ho running around like , , and , and the extra chip feeds directly into 's extreme speed cleanup

gives the team a special pivot and can sometimes catch or with colbur + sludge bomb, while calm mind helps into opposing and flamethrower stops and from getting free turns

is the main defensive pivot, gives me a solid answer, switches into , and keeps hazards off for

is usually the endgame wincon, with all the hazard and helmet chip putting things into silk scarf extreme speed range, while fire punch gives it coverage for , , and . overall the team just tries to keep forcing small amounts of progress until or can clean

 

[OatIsHere]

An Electric resist alone doesnt cut it lol, Zap Cannon does 40-50% on resist to mons that arent heavily SpDef invested. Not to mention that they get crippled for the rest of the match while having that 12.5% chance of just losing out on a turn.

Last regulation I was playing with Scarf Hydreigon and the resistance to Electric meant literally nothing especially after rocks, you just died to Focus Blast afterwards because of the para

Unless you have something entirely immune to electric then Ychu makes permanent progress on your team with every Zap Cannon click

thats because you dont use scarf hydreigon as your ychu switch in :sob: there are plenty of electric resists such as rillaboom etc. also if you dont have a ground/electric immune then we just have a bad team im sorry

 

[Zerotti]

Is this where the line starts to complain about Zap Cannon paralysis hax and vote for ban?

 

[jacko0]

thats because you dont use scarf hydreigon as your ychu switch in :sob: there are plenty of electric resists such as rillaboom etc. also if you dont have a ground/electric immune then we just have a bad team im sorry

you switch in rilla, take 40%, then take helmet damage on the freest corv switch in the world

 

[Runo]

someone forgot an electric resist larpy larpyyyy

chat do we know what the move rillaboom gets that starts with a u and ryhmes with poo burn

Rilla as a check is shakey at best cuz zap cannon para is nasty + u have very strong incentive to not click glide and remove ychu because doing so could open you up to the aforementioned corv entry or maybe something scarier like ceru, aegi, slowking, etc if you get the call wrong or you just prolong ychu's influence on the battle which just makes Rilla less reliable as a check overtime. It's a skill-issue based judgement call but i personally would not enjoy Rilla as the main revenge killer + ground as the ychu answer. Feels like u need a back-up incase Rilla has a struggle mu (common).

 

[Mr Zangler]

someone forgot an electric resist larpy larpyyyy

chat do we know what the move rillaboom gets that starts with a u and ryhmes with poo burn

why isn't there a chud react for this troll ass response

 

[pengu]

first time qualifying for a singles suspect test lol, mega pod goes crazy. i didn't end up playing many yaichu but the ones I did play felt overly oppressive. Without priority and solid hazards (rocks are sufficient), you're screwed. Zap Cannon is doing 60+ to Hatterene, for example. I'm not a fan of keeping this thing in the tier and, as a more casual player, wouldn't mind seeing it go.

 

[golitsyn]

Teams used for reqs:(origin/my version)
https://pokepast.es/701ab1b5334b3438 / https://pokepast.es/86a402f2ff2ae00a
https://pokepast.es/3338d7106b93c0f2 / https://pokepast.es/d89c1b7db93f5b9a
https://pokepast.es/c45d27337ac5992c / https://pokepast.es/159b7734a6327a32
Because of his no guard, coverage, and zap cannon para there is no pokemon that can switch in against him. But its bulk is just too terrible, and you do not need any special check. Scarf users such as meowscarada cinderace hamurott hydreigon excadrill quaquaval, faster mons such as garchomp-z absol-z dragapult lopunny delphox, priority move users such as golisopod(aqua jet and sucker punch) kingambit rillaboom hamurott ceruledge, terrain + sneasler, most teams have pokemon like these. Another point worth mentioning is that it's almost impossible to prevent garchomp and glimmora from setting hazards, further hurting raichu's longevity.
I would like to say that raichu-y is strong but still manageable, especially in this meta(hazard stack and speed creep). So I'll vote do not ban.

 

[Omega106]

Meanwhile the actual Mega Raichu (Mega Raichu X) is shackled and forced to flip burgers and put the fries in the bag in a poorly maintained kitchen.

It's honestly insane how much they hate Raichu, they cant even make its Mega good but are more than happy to make Mega Pikacuu broken

 

[Sami]

Buddy took his sweet time: SD Mega Lopunny HO

Ladder barely prepares for SD Mega Lopunny nor do they prepare for SD Scale Shot Garchomp so most of the time these two just won on the spot. King's Shield is weird cuz I have no Poltergeist but it does come in clutch versus Mega Floette and against other HO teams. Primarina is also a bit strange here but it kinda destroys most other fat teams even with Galarian Slowking on them.

Anyways I'm easily voting ban on Mega Raichu Y. Most of the DNB arguments I've seen are pretty lackluster in why we should even keep this mon around. Suggesting that it is frail is a lame excuse because most good players will always navigate around that issue, such as by using slow pivots, double switches into Corviknight and Rotom-W, or just revenge killing slower foes like Mega Metagross. There are already other frail yet powerful attackers banned in this tier (i.e Mega Lucario, Mega Starmie, Mega Blastoise after Shell Smash), yet they share similar issues to Mega Raichu such as 4MSS, weakness to priority, weakness to hazards barring Mega Lucario, etc.

Saying that you can use Galarian Slowking + Ground-type is also a weak excuse since it forces unhealthy 50/50s between Zap Cannon/Volt Switch and whatever coverage it is using. Even if Mega Raichu Y gets it wrong, it can just hard pivot into something like Corviknight, and get the momentum back later on, to repeat this cycle. Meanwhile, the defensive side getting a predict wrong is detrimental later on, especially if Mega Raichu Y doesn't end up dying to hazards or priority (which is unlikely anyways).

It's just another oppressive low-skill high-reward attacker in the tier, making building significantly harder and more MU-dependent than it needs to be, something I don't see as improving the competitiveness of the tier at all, while Mega Raichu Y offers very little benefit in return, unlike something like Hisuian Samurott who has minimal yet notable defensive utility versus Mega Delphox, Mega Absol Z, Kingambit, etc. At best, Mega Raichu Y can revenge kill stuff like Mega Starapator, but there are still good alternatives to that such as Dragapult.

Finally, saying that Hisuian Samurott is the reason that Mega Raichu Y is broken is just wrong, all you need is Stealth Rock to 2HKO Galarian Slowking which is all that really matters.