Metagame NP ZU Stage 16: DUCKWORTH. - Porygon2 banned #11

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:sv/porygon2:​
Porygon2 finds itself back in ZU after rising out of the tier in the last shifts. Following a quick ban vote, we have decided to suspect test it! It was originally ranked A on the VR, but would have without a doubt risen to a higher rank if it had not been taken out of the tier. Porygon2 is tough to take down with its incredible bulk with Eviolite, its typing making it only weak to Fighting-type moves, and having reliable recovery. The Trace ability makes it almost impossible special attackers like for Oricorio and Choice Specs Jolteon to make progress. It even has the natural physical bulk to stomach strong attacks like Floatzel's Wave Crash. Access to Thunder Wave and a colorful movepool helps it cripple or take down faster attackers like Charizard, Clawitzer, and Whimsicott.

Porygon2 being an unkillable wall isn't the only reason it is being suspect tested. Charge Beam sets have been popping up as a way to use Porygon2's bulk to its advantage, accumulating Special Attack boosts while being able to sit on half of the metagame. This can turn it from a passive wall, into an offensive threat. It has similar traits to Growth Dipplin, but usually has to use Terastalize in order to avoid physical attackers like Passimian, Sneasel-Hisui, and Virizion.

Although it may seem too much for the tier to most, some have arguments as to why it's not. There are a lot of Pokemon who have sets that are capable of beating Porygon2. Calm Mind Jolteon, Nasty Plot Mesprit, and OTR Spiritomb and all find ways of breaking through Porygon2 with sheer force. Defensive checks like Naclstack, Snorlax, and Regirock can all sit on Porygon2 quite well and retaliate back. Charge Beam sets do help Porygon2 not be taken advantage of when it comes to its passivity, but they only work to great success when against Pokemon that don't have some way of boosting through its bulk, or when Porygon2 Terastalizes.

In conclusion Porygon2 might be manageable, but its interactions with its checks have led for many to call for action to take place. As such, the Council has decided to suspect Porygon2!

NOTE: THIS TEST WILL BE USING A NEW SUSPECT PROCESS!

The instructions to participate in this test are as follows:
  • Create a new account on PS. You do not have to follow any specific naming convention, but your suspect account must have never played a game in ZU before this suspect test went up or you will not receive valid requirements (resetting W/L does not count for this - the account you use must never have played ZU before the test, full stop.)
  • At any point on your new account, use the command /linksmogon on Pokemon Showdown! You will receive instructions on what to do once you run this command.
  • Double check that you're listed as a voter here! If you aren't listed as a voter despite having valid reqs, please contact me, Tuthur, or a member of staff.
  • If you have any questions about this new process, feel free to PM me or post here!

The requirement to vote in this suspect test is a COIL value of 2920. For reference, the B-value for this suspect will be 4. The suspect test will go on for about 14 days, lasting until Friday, July 25th at 11:59 pm GMT-4 and then we will put up the voting thread in the Blind Voting subforum.

This thread will be open to allow all users to share their thoughts on this suspect test and discuss with one another their thoughts. Should you have any questions about the suspect test, feel free to message me or anyone else on the ZU council. Keep in mind that our suspect tests are decided by the community; anyone who achieves voting requisites is allowed to vote. The outcome is up to you. Happy posting and laddering!

Avoid posting one-liners or posts that do not contribute to any discussion. They will be deleted.
 
:SV/PORYGON2: Porygon2 :SV/PORYGON2:

I've just got reqs and I wanted to comment a bit on this mon. While P2 is usually a defensive wall with the ability to check a threats on both the special and physical side thanks to reliable recovery and a neutral typing, a new set has risen to be a threat.

Porygon2 @ Eviolite
Ability: Download
Tera Type: Ghost / Fairy / Poison
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Tri Attack / Tera Blast
- Charge Beam
- Recover
- Shadow Ball / Ice Beam

The switch from Trace to Download allows P2 to come in on more physically inclined Pokemon with a SpAtk boost, threatening with Stab Tri attack that only a few mons are willing to come in on. Alongside that, it is able to further boost its SpAtk stat with charge beam. It has the bulk and longevity to abuse this rather weak move thanks to recover, the Eviolite and it's neutral typing. It can also use Tera to overcome its fighting weakness.

My experience with this mon makes me want to ban it. While I don't think its egregiously broken, it is very annoying to deal with. The list of mons willing to come in on a +1 Tri Attack, while also threatening P2 enough to not continue to click Charge beam and Recover is small. Spdef Mesprit and Perrserker are examples, but they can all suffer if they get unlucky and are frozen by Tri Attack. Naclstack ignores status, but lacks the ability to remove P2's item, and its ways of pressuring P2 outside of Salt Cure can be worked around via Tera. Another one of the better checks is your own Porygon2, and you often leave this interaction burning each other out of recovers, making it easy from one of your team mates to revenge it.

One thing that makes me not want to ban Porygon2 is the defensive utility it brings to the tier. The defensive sets are able to keep many threats in the tier in check, and it overall can make building easier, knowing you have a mon which can blanket check a lot of special attackers. With the previous suspect in Oricorio if I got reqs (Thanks Bloodace) I would have voted ban simply because while it isn't broken, it's one of the many threats in the tier difficult to cover in the builder which makes building exhausting, and removing one of those would make things easier. P2 has the opposite problem being that it's broken but is also very good for the tier.
 
I'm kinda surprised to see so much support in favor of banning Porygon2, whether it's on council votes or just general community talks. That Pokémon has felt so underwhelming on my ladder run, that I ended up switching to a team without it for reqs after trying out different sets. I just watched every LTWC replays featuring Porygon2 and it just seems to be a great Pokémon.

Defensive Porygon2 is extremely bulky and can easily make progress with Thunder-Wave, while keeping itself healthy with Recover. Havocknight vs Danny is a good showcase that this set must be respected and can be really hard to break down if you can't get a Knock Off on it. That's a set we've known for a while and could adapt rather well in past metagame iterations through the use of bulky Substitute users like Mesprit and Jolteon, and I feel like the general consensus is that this set can be prepared for rather well.

The main concern is seemingly the offensive set, and eh... I'm a bit surprised by that. This set seems to only be good in theory, flopping massively in practice. Charge Beam is a very underwhelming way of boosting yourself and without Thunder Wave, you are not threatening offensive threats out that can just boost along yourself and break through you. Those super offensive invested Porygon2 are really bad; they are not bulky enough to act as a defensive backbone like you wish they did and they are not initially strong enough to be a threat compared to other Pokemon in its speed tier. In Havocknight vs Toto, we can see Porygon2 being forced out by Leftovers Arboliva and ended up being pretty much useless. In yo cho vs sayyonara, Porygon2 can't find any switch-in opportunities until it's too late and gets OHKOed by Clawitzer. In Monai vs sayyonara, Porygon2 gets to do things but it's mostly at trading with itself and we also see why Charge Beam can be a bit unreliable. In TakingNotesKinda vs Morbius Z, Porygon2 takes down a Mesprit for its Eviolite and then forces a tera from Mabosstiff.

I fail to be see what aspect of Porygon2 makes it broken. We've had that Pokémon in the past and it wasn't broken. Teams don't seem to overprep for it in LTWC, but are seemingly doing fine against it. Porygon has been breaking some teams, but better than other breaks in the same speed bracket like Clawitzer or Trevenant.
 
After getting the reqs, it is time to decide what to vote ;3

Laddering was honestly a blast. The tier is extremely diverse and fun to play, although pretty unbalanced and a bit uncompetitive at the time. This is my first time playing gen9 seriously since few games in OU when gen9 came out. I was amazed by how many pokemon even not very good pokemon can be viable thanks to the tera and few nicely movepool additions. I feel like I learned a lot from this laddering session, though it's clear I still have much to improve on especially since ladder experience can be quite different from tournament play.

I plan to vote Do Not Ban on this suspect.

My reasoning behind my vote is as follows: most playstyles have reasonable ways to handle Porygon.

In my opinion, Bulky Offense is currently the strongest playstyle. While dealing with Porygon reactively is difficult, BO has the tools to pressure it proactively. It threatens Porygon with Trick/Switcheroo, Fighting-type moves, Knock Off, Encore/Taunt, Leech Seed, Psychic Noise, powerful Tera attacks, strong wallbreakers (e.g., Trevenant, Clawitzer, Specs Exeggutor), hazards (Spikes/Toxic Spikes), status conditions, VoltTurn, and setup. Most BO teams already run many of these options by default so it only requires minimal adaptation. It does demand good positioning but that’s part of competitive play.

Generally speaking, offensive Porygon sets are significantly less bulky. To name a few common interactions, Jolteon Thunderbolt has a chance to 2HKO at +1, Floatzel Tera Water OHKOs after Stealth Rock, and a burned Porygon can’t safely switch into Charizard if rocks are up. Charge Beam is an unreliable setup move. Accounting for miss chances, it’s statistically more likely to be at +0 after two turns than at +2. While Porygon has the bulk to make this set threating against passive teams, it cannot afford to waste turns against a well played offense. Defensive sets aren’t seen as problematic and are exploitable by Substitute users and setup sweepers.

HO snowballs before Porygon becomes a threat. Some adaptation like running Sub for Twave might help but those sets are good regardless. For weather teams, Porygon has a poor matchup against sand. It loses to Probopass, most Lilligant variants, and at best trading with Lycanroc or Sandslash. Offensive sets do not score well against Sun teams while defensive sets play better. This is a good thing as Sun is already hard enough to check in this meta. Still, Porygon isn’t unbeatable for Sun teams as Eruption does heavy damage if Porygon is slightly weakened.
Hail is an easier matchup for Porygon for the defensive sets at least that can spread Thunder Wave. But Beartic at +2 can OHKO Porygon with some Icicle Spear luck. TR isn't troubled by Porygon as Spiritomb is often present and the team typically includes multiple powerful breakers.
Stall has the luxury of using Naclstack which walls most Porygon sets. Even without Naclstack, stall teams can handle Porygon through Haze/Toxic or PP stalling. Porygon doesn't fundamentally change how stall plays and I do not see how this is a threat for the playstyle. Semi-Stall is unviable even without Porygon.

The only playstyle that truly struggles with Porygon is Balance. Balance can’t afford to dedicate a slot to a hard counter in a metagame overloaded with threats. It also lacks the offensive pressure to keep Porygon in check, allowing it to switch freely into defensive cores. Playing against Porygon with Balance is rough. But playing Balance is rough in general. The meta accommodates too many strong offensive threats for Balance to get constantly average matchups. It simply lacks the teambuilding slots to cover everything. This won't change unless Tera is banned or a dozen Pokémon are moved to ZUBL, neither of which seems to be the council's plan. In the meantime, Porygon ironically helps Balance by stat checking most of our offensive threats and spreading paralysis to make revenge killing easier for its partners. I do not like Porygon as a Pokemon but keeping it in the tier is currently the healthiest option for the metagame.
 
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Hi, I wasn't planning on laddering for reqs but ended up doing so. Keeping it short, I think Tuthur and Apa made some good points. I'm maybe voting DNB. I feel like P2 is often needed to check the considerable amount of hard hitting threats in the metagame more than broken. I'll agree that it's a RNG mon, however, with P2 mirrors being often decided by a who gets more lucky moment or so, which makes me think if we wanna keep it in the tier for real.
 
Laddered on a whim in a tier I've never played before and it took way longer than I was hoping it would, but might as well share my thoughts after laddering for 6 straight hours lol

Honestly didn't play vs a ton of Porygon in my run and personally didn't use it. After sitting on it for a few hours, Pory never felt impossible to deal with. It has the capacity to steal games with hax between Tri Attack, Ice Beam and Twave but it's extremely passive and can be dealt with by threatening a Knock Off or by setting up while it can't do much to you. There could be a case for getting rid of Porygon bc of how RNG can let it bullshit its way to a win, but I personally don't see the reason to get rid of it just for that.

As for the offensive Charge Beam set, I wasn't impressed with it. Like the bulkier set, it has the potential to be scary when things go its way, but you're trading a lot of bulk which is really risky and you're throwing away Porygon's strength. A simple Download set that lets you keep bulk while clicking a relatively powerful Tri Attack/TB could be decent to keep some utility and respectable power, but I think leaning heavily into bulk is much better than what the offensive sets can do.

After reading some posts above, I'm leaning more towards DNB for P2. This was legit my first time touching ZU so maybe I just don't know enough about the tier to form a complete opinion, but Pory never felt completely overwhelming to go against. Draft greedy_eb for ZUPL and ideally make him start in a tier with hidden power bc it's his favorite mechanic
 
Piggybacking the comments above, I think p2 has the potential to be problematic, but it isn't in this tier. It takes time to do what it wants, and this tier really doesn't give you much time. I tried p2 during my laddering experience and against offense it felt too easily overwhelmed. It felt the strongest in games I was already winning
 
Not getting reqs this time unfortunately, but one phenomenon I saw on the ladder was the high prevalence of cheese teams and knock off spam. This makes sense when you realize how bulky P2 is with its eviolite.

So you could make the case that it's really unhealthy for the tier. It's way bulkier than Mesprit and has recovery to boot, and thus a lot of potential to come in and spam Charge Beam, which compensates for the RNG.

It's weird, since P2 does provide needed utility and bolsters balance by a lot, but because ghost types are kinda ass in this metagame and the Knock Off on your Muk/Sandslash/Passimian is often very easy to telegraph, it might contribute to an unenjoyable metagame. It's a final boss that usually requires an effort constituted of multiple pokemon.

That + the colorful coverage movepool Porygon2 can use. Psyshock can take out AV Muk, Thunderbolt is for Charizard, and Shadow Ball can defeat Mesprit, Knock Off be damned. You can even use Tera Blast Fairy to get rid of Sableye and Passimian. Also, Tri Attack can hit you with a bullshit status effect reminiscent of Kyurem in SV OU, with it having the ability to spam the move again and again if running a specially defensive set, so you better keep that ghost type alive... but as I said, I find ghost types to be ass in ZU and thus can be exploited.

I would honestly advocate for a ban on P2 due to encouraging metagame dynamics i don't find fun nor healthy. SV ZU has been way less enjoyable for the reasons stated above, this thing promotes cheese.
 
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Didnt have time to make the post I wanted but I believe Porygon2 is too much for ZU as it stands. Download can let it get a free SpA boost if positioned correctly and it can very easily snowball to +2 and beyond from Charge Beam boosts. P2 is a bit of a tera hog but for good reason. After tera most conventional normal resists (such as Regirock, Orthworm,) etc can really touch it since they rely on Body Press for damage output and become fodder for Charge Beam sets. Nacl cant be statused and salt cure does burn Recovers faster but its not very splashable.
The list of pokemon that can convincingly defeat it once it gets to +2 (which is not difficult) is next to none. Bulky attackers such as Perrserker, Glastrier, Snorlax, and Muk can take a hit but they are also typically gonna be slower and can get easily screwed by Tri-Attack status procs.

Hazard stack, Hyper Offense/Setup Spam, Knock Off spam, and stallbreaker tactics from the likes of Sableye and Mespirit are essentially the only counterplay and like I'm Tapu Bulu summarized, overall makes for some unpleasant and unhealthy metagame dynamics where you are just trying to stall out the recovers, often resorting to p2 vs p2 spamming against each other. I will voting to BAN Porygon2 as a result.

Some replays from recent tours that showcase P2:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9zu-2402153431-8tgnkgi7n13vsdc0aph9pshcytsbfvxpw (p2 v2 p2 degeneracy)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9zu-858617 (sub charge beam 6-0]
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9zu-2401685874 (p2 beats orthworm 1v1)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9zu-2398731464 (p2 cant be taken down by multiple remaining mons)
 
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Porygon2 meets the 50%+1 requirement, therefore Porygon2 is now banned from SV ZU. Tagging dhelmise and Marty for implementing, thank you. If you qualify for TC, you can DM me or an UM leader.
 
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