Metagame NP: ZU Stage 2 - Turn It Again - Combusken Quick Banned @77

[Toto]

Hey ZU I haven't done an actual post in a while and im tired of seeing discord run around in circles so im here to save the day with my thoughts on golbat and combusken. Although I haven't used them as much as I would like, the little time I have used them on ladder and in room tours golbat feels banworthy whereas combusken im 50/50. I understand that most teams I faced were not adapted to face these monsters and whilst I do think they both have counterplay and ZU could adapt to golbat if necessary I don't think ZU needs or should have to as it would shift the meta significantly to an unhealthy extent.

Golbat is an amazing mon thanks to its sizeable bulk from eviolite, great defensive typing in poison/flying and a large support movepull. It's typing gives golbat many common resistances and well as a key immunity to ground and being hit by toxic. Its utility movepull includes roost, defog, taunt, toxic and super fang allowing golbat to function as a excellent defensive defogger and/or stallbrecker that imo clearly makes it not zu material. From my experience it can usually 1v1 3/4 of most balance teams and there is also basically no reason not to use it on balance builds.

Downsides of golbat include being checked offensively by a large number of psychics, electrics and and ice types that ZU have accumulated over recent months as well as the ever present stonjourner. However these mons don't really want to hard switch in and lose 50% of the heath thanks to super fang or risk getting hit by toxic either.

Offensive Checks:
Sets

Stall Breacker

Golbat @ Eviolite
Ability: Infiltrator
EVs: 248 HP / 172 Def / 88 Spe
Impish Nature
- Brave Bird
- Super Fang
- Roost
- Taunt

Defensive Defog

Golbat @ Eviolite
Ability: Infiltrator
EVs: 248 HP / 172 Def / 88 Spe
Impish Nature
- Brave Bird
- Roost
- Defog
- Toxic / Taunt

Combusken is another amazing mon thanks to it hidden ability speed boost as well as access to swords dance and strong stabs. It has 3 main sets which are all excellent and all have different counters making combusken hard to deal with. I dont really have much else to say as its pretty self explanatory at what it does so im just gunna drops a load of calcs showing its checks/counters. Although it may seem like their are lots of check/counters for combusken is that once they get chipped which is relatively easy to do and can be made easier by using t spikes combusken just has a field day and can easily sweep team in the late game

Special calcs

252 SpA Life Orb Combusken Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Politoed: 191-226 (49.7 - 58.8%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Combusken Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Politoed: 138-164 (35.9 - 42.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Combusken Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Hattrem: 153-181 (48.1 - 56.9%) -- 86.7% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Combusken Focus Blast vs. 176 HP / 4 SpD Whiscash: 253-298 (62.4 - 73.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Combusken Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Pyukumuku: 153-181 (48.7 - 57.6%) -- 92.6% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Combusken Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Dusclops: 71-86 (25 - 30.2%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Combusken Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Palpitoad: 133-157 (37.5 - 44.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Physical calcs

+2 252+ Atk Combusken Brick Break vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Stonjourner: 312-368 (91.4 - 107.9%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Combusken Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 244+ Def Eviolite Hattrem: 204-241 (64.1 - 75.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Combusken Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Hippopotas: 181-214 (53.2 - 62.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Combusken Flare Blitz vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Mudbray: 195-229 (56.8 - 66.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Combusken Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Machoke: 195-229 (53.5 - 62.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Combusken Flare Blitz vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Vullaby: 186-220 (54.2 - 64.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Combusken Brick Break vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Politoed: 175-207 (45.5 - 53.9%) -- 43.8% chance to 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Combusken Thunder Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Politoed: 340-402 (105.9 - 125.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Combusken Brick Break vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Palpitoad: 139-165 (39.2 - 46.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+2 252+ Atk Combusken Brick Break vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Marshtomp: 181-214 (52.6 - 62.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Combusken Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Slowpoke: 102-120 (26.5 - 31.2%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
+2 252+ Atk Combusken Thunder Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Slowpoke: 170-200 (44.2 - 52%) -- 17.6% chance to 2HKO

Physical Check/Counters:
Special Checks/Counters:
Sets

LO Special

Combusken @ Life Orb
Ability: Speed Boost
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
- Fire Blast
- Focus Blast
- Substitute
- Protect

SD Physical

Combusken @ Eviolite
Ability: Speed Boost
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Flare Blitz
- Low Kick / Brick Break
- Protect / Thunder Punch / Shadow Claw

Sub Toxic

Combusken @ Eviolite / Leftovers
Ability: Speed Boost
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Fire Blast
- Protect
- Substitute
- Toxic

Feel free to tell me if I missed anything or if anything is wrong as this was rushed

 

[S1nn0hC0nfirm3d]

Hey everyone, the council has concluded the voting slate. Here is the sheet with each member's vote and reasoning, or check the spoiler below.

5 / 6 Ban votes

3 / 6 Ban votes

Reasoning

5gen

Combusken: Ban. Combusken is too much of an offensive threat for the meta to handle imo. While there is counterplay such as Dusclops, bulky Water-types with Rest, and checks such as bulky Psychics, Hakamo-o, and a few select others, Combusken has proven itself to be too much for the tier imo. Between specially offensive, sub toxic, and SD, Combusken has really limited counterplay and I do not feel the meta can effectively handle it without warping the meta too much around it.

Golbat: Do not Ban. I've been on the fence on Golbat and to be frank, I am only leaning do not ban here. Although Golbat has proven to be an oppressive Pokemon that can shut down much of the meta (especially against slower/bulkier teams), it has its fair share of weaknesses and is exploitable in a number of ways (i.e faster mons with super effective attacks, removing its item via knock or trick, SR), which in my experience has made it more or less not overwhelming. My experience using Golbat and playing against has lead me to believe that its effectiveness in this meta is slightly overblown. As such, I am not convinced Golbat is broken and ideally I want some more time to see how the meta develops around Golbat before definitely voting ban or no ban. Like, bulky teams that worked in the previous meta do not work in this meta and I don't think that we have had enough time to adjust to Golbat given the new tools ZU has plus current mons that threaten Golbat.

czim

Combusken: DNB. Combusken has been making a splash in these last few days but our metagame hasn't been used to deal with strong Fire- and Fighting- types, usually relying on soft checks for those. I believe there's room for experimentation to deal with Combusken and I believe theres room for counterplay with possible new or old unexplored sets such as Aqua Jet/Flip Turn Wartortle, defensive Whiscash, mixed bulk Hattrem, or just natural checks such as Golbat, Gabite, Marshtomp, Pyukumuku, Slowpoke, Spdef Seaking, Lampent, Drakloak, Hakamo-o and so on. I think its way too soon to kick the chicken out of the metagame.

Golbat: DNB. More broken on paper than on practice. Golbat is a great addition to the tier that tries to do too much but is usually kept in check by its 4 common weaknesses in Psychic, Electric, Ice and Rock, all very common offensive typings in the tier. On top of that, it has a big 4MSS and an item syndrome like Galar-Mime, where it wants both Boots and Eviolite to function correctly, since without Boots its forced to Roost often due to hazards, but without Eviolite its not as bulky as it needs to be to check some stuff. The stallbreaker is probably the most effective set but the fact that it can't fit all the moves it wants to holds it back.

Ho3nConfirm3d

Combusken: Ban. Chicken has mostly been its special sets this generation due to inefficient physical Fighting coverage and no Z moves to make Flare Blitz or Sky Uppercut worth their downsides. That's not to say that Focus Blast isn't that great, but in a meta that revolves around Toxic and Toxic Spikes spam as the top strats to wear down walls / force them to Rest, Combusken fits right in. Also compared to last gen, there are a limited amount of walls that can even stomach its coverage, making it even more of a nuisance to the tier. Unfortunately, the limited counterplay and 50/50s that busken forces even when the opponent properly prepares and plays against it pushes it over the edge.

Golbat: DNB. Too many relevant weaknesses and limitations in its utility for it to be banworthy. I can see Golbat becoming the next S tier if it stays in ZU, and having some centralization to check S tier mons is to be expected. With Golbat, there likley won't need too much adjustment when it comes to checks that cary Knock Off and / or super effective coverage. More so, offensive Rock-, Ice-, Psychic-, and Electric-types are all some of the most common offensive Pokemon in the meta. Any of its roles will have these issues, and Golbat will remain a mon that's easier to check offnesively than defensively. I think that's ok, and there will be more time to explore a Golbat meta and how playstyles can come to terms with it in the tier.

Kay

Combusken: Ban. Offensive counter play thanks to speed boost basically comes down to bulky mons that can look to take a hit and trade to trade back which puts you in an awkward spot of having to keep certain things at 100% at all times and look to either run slowpoke to get them in (as most stuff like beh and mime) are 2hko and out sped which means your best option offensively is to sack something or slowpoke and then look to see if they're willing to take a 1 and a half for 1 trade. And defensively there isn't much for it aside from things like Lampent and Sp.D clops. The offensive counter play is shaky, the defensive counter play is too specific, and the option of sub toxic protect is always there which totally changes how you need to play against it.

Golbat: Ban. Golbat breaks so many balance teams thanks it its options like taunt, toxic, and super fang that it has options to run you pretty much can constomize just how much you want to break apart teams vs having the upfront useful options like brave bird and u-turn. Its extremely fast, bulky, and almost nothing actually sure-fire deals with it defensively and offensively you're left with very specific wall breakers like specs Raichu, beh, and the mimes to actually deal with it. Other amazing wall breakers like specs Wishcash and Politoed don't actually do enough damage to it to kill it thanks to roost spamming getting rid of its ice weakness so you just get toxic'd and worn down. This mons is extremely oppressive and the defintion of unhealthy.

Tuthur

Combusken: Ban, Combusken's STAB combination paired with Speed Boost makes it very hard to defensively and offensively handle. Imo, the Special sets (sub tect flamethrower toxic/focus blast) are the most dangerous as only resttalk special walls such as Dusclops and Politoed handle it as well as random NFEs such as Lampent and Frillish, that are inferior to other mon in any other mu. With the combination of Sub and Protect, Combusken can easily rack enough speed boosts to outspeed every scarfer and can easily beat them once they are weakened (it can weaken them on its own by clicking Toxic as they come in). Defensive counterplay to Combusken exists but is very limited and depends on its set, because Special walls don't eat Flare Blitz well and Physical Walls don't eat Flamethrower/Focus Blast well.

Golbat: Ban, Golbat has insane stallbreaking capacities. With just Taunt+Roost, its insane bulk, and Poison-immunity, it can invalidate most defensive Pokemon. Then Super Fang lets it severly cripple its offensive checks such as Stonjourner, Electric-types, and Ice-types, because they often lack recovery, while also forcing Hattrem to Rest. Toxic lets it beat other answers such as Lickititung and Spritzee (having to run these mon to answer golbat is enough to say it's broken btw) and also put the aforementionned offensive checks (that lack recovery) on a timer. Overall, Golbat is just out of place in ZU. It can freely switch into most Pokémon in the tier, including powerful attackers such as Ivysaur, Machoke, and Gourgeist-L, while its checks are severly hindered by Super Fang / Toxic.

Union Caboche

Combusken: Ban. The counterplay against the special set is only covered by few mons not splashable (Dusclops, poltieod, Spd Beheeyem), which are not always reliable answer against toxic variants or unmons/weak mons such as frilish, lampent or slowpoke. Being forced to play these mons which are not a guaranteed answer for most of them makes teams structure overall weaker and asks a restriction too important for the tier. There is no option to avoid these restrictions without straight up losing to combusken. There is also a guessing game to know if it's physical or special making things ever more dumb than they already are.

Golbat: Ban. The Taunt set of Golbat breaks ZU. It has the ability to 1v1 the majority of the tier, nerfing significally playstyles like Stall or bulky balance in forcing progress through the game without being threaten back. You need to have several strong attackers having super effective hits and being faster ideally with knock off support to force it to switch out. Golbat sits versus everything else and beats them up after few turns. Even strongest attackers in the tier like Gourgeist-Large fails to catch the 2HKO. This mon is blatantly broken, asks no skill to win and gives an unfair advantage to the player who uses it. If it stayed in zu, it would ruin its competitive aspect in overcentralizing the whole tier around its use. The arguments to keep it are currently too weak and farfetch'd to consider any other solution in my honest opinion.

Combusken is quickbanned from ZU with a 5/6 majority ban vote. Golbat remains ZU with a tied vote. Tagging The Immortal to implement.

For me, this slate was tough with the limited amount of playtesting we had for these mons. It also is a slate that is effecting the current ZU for only a short period due to the up and coming November shifts. The council members had this in mind when voting; for example, DNB Golbat voters wanted more time to explore its vulnerabilities and shortcomings, while pro-ban voters believed it to be inherently unhealthy and should never stay in ZU for the foreseeable future. Regardless, Combusken is gone while Golbat stays in ZU for now. I hope we all continue to enjoy and explore the post-DLC2 meta :)

 

[Mega-Pokebattlerz]

Rejoice! We get to keep Golbat for another... (checks calendar) four days! Use it while it lasts, because you know RU or NU is going to steal it.

 

[AllTerrainVen0moth]

Rejoice! We get to keep Golbat for another... (checks calendar) four days! Use it while it lasts, because you know RU or NU is going to steal it.

who knows, maybe pu will keep it. Its loses so much with either item .If you pick HDB, you lose the bulk you get from eviolite. If you pick eviolite, you get chipped by rocks every time you switch