Onix (LC Analysis)

Bobtheball4

CAP Playtesting Expert
vadredit: closed at author's request

Topic Title: Onix (Lead)

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http://www.smogon.com/dp/pokemon/onix

Name: Lead
Move 1: Stealth Rock
Move 2: Earthquake
Move 3: Stone Edge
Move 4: Explosion/Taunt
Item: Focus Sash
Nature: Jolly
EVs: 236 HP / 76 Atk / 196 Spe

Why this set deserves to be on-site:
-Onix can take hits from other leads and get SR up.
-Has the option to explode on other leads as well taunt.
-Faster than most other Stealth Rock users.

Additional Comments:
-Add more EVs into attack.
-Why it would be used over other Stealth Rock leads

Teammates and Counters:
-Pokemon that work well with Onix are fast fighting Pokemon as well as water and ghost Pokemon to take some resisted attacks that could let Onix in later.
-has trouble with Snover, Diglett and Machop leads by having to choose to attack or set up SR.


This is the only set i can see Onix running as it doesn't have much other options. If there are any other options that you see, please tell me.
 
i know his attack isn't all that great, but could a rock polish set be viable? he gets good coverage with edgequake and can blow up on anything he can't beat. he already has decent speed so a lot of the evs can go into attack and bulk.
 
Outclassed by Rhyhorn and Geodude.

I'd go with a sandstorm wall set, though, since he needs no Def EVs to do his job, he can be a boss mixed wall with Hippopotas support. The only big deal is that we make sure Onix's sets aren't outclassed versions of the many other good R/G types, namely Rhyhorn, Geodude, Larvitar, etc.
 
I know its not outclassed by Rhyhorn because of Explosion. It's definitely not outclassed by Geodude because of Geodudes awful speed stat which means Geo has to invest in speed. Onix on the other hand, has a decent speed stat so it can invest more EVs into its offensive stats and bulk. I really don't see how that's outclassed. It's definitely not outclassed by Larvitar either because of its MUCH better bulk and speed.

Edit: Rock Polish Onix would work great with Geodude because Geo lures in Bronzong with Stone Edge and proceeds to KO with Fire Punch (bypassing oran because Stone Edge doesn't activate it)
 
i see more of a double rock/ground rp sweeper working, like a combination of onix and geodude, with geodude being armed with attacks to take down the general counters - in ss or in regular play, both pokemon should have good opportunities to set up.
 
The reason i see Onix doing better than Rhyhorn and Geodude would be that it's a lot faster (but weaker) and has Explosion (for Rhyhorn). Everyone's point seems fine though, but I'll keep the RP set on the side unless someone wants it, and I'll work on the wall set.
 
Name: SS mix wall Onix
Move 1: Earthquake
Move 2: Explosion
Move 3: Protect
Move 4: Stealth Rock / Toxic
Item: Oran Berry
Nature: Careful
EVs: 236 HP / 236 SpD / 36 Spe

Heres the SS Mix wall I thought up. after having Hippopotas lead the team, Onix would come in later to take physical attacks, and then attempt to deal up damage by Protect or Roar. If you think Hippopotas won't be getting SR up, you could put it on Onix, although Toxic would work good also.


I still haven't testing these out yet, so I'm just posting to show what I'm going to test so others can test as well.

Name: Rock Polish
Move 1: Rock Polish
Move 2: Earthquake
Move 3: Stone Edge
Move 4: Explosion
Item: Oran Berry/Focus Sash
Nature: Adamant/Jolly
EVs: 156 HP / 236 Atk / 116 Spe


you probably could go a little more bulky than all that EVs in speed. Using this many speed EVs make sure you out speed max scarf Diglett, as well as tying with agility Chinchou and Kabuto(in rain) although he would probably run Aqua Jet. Oran would be the best choice, but if you're worried about not getting to attack from setting up, you could go with a Focus Sash.
 
I really think max speed is unnecessary. Scarf Diglett, Elekid, and Voltorb are EXTREMELY unpopular. A Chople Berry could also work (while in SS) to take Croagunk's Vacuum Wave better.
 
Towelie said:
I want rock polish.
Click to expand...

Yeah, we get it.

While you talk a ton about having EVs to invest in other stats, you fail to realize that you're only gaining about 1 or 2 points. When you factor in that Onix has shitty attack, no amount of extra points makes it compare to Geodude.

No one cares how much you want Rock Polish when it's plainly outclassed. Onix's Attack is shit.
 
Rock Polish needs to be backed by actual damage. Having 35 base Attack does not "actual damage" make. Not when Larvitar can do the same thing, except with Guts to boost its Attack; Geodude can do it while having Sucker Punch for Priority, Fire Punch for Bronzor, or Explosion for that "last burst; and Rhyhorn, which has that awesome HP and access to Megahorn for hitting Bronzor and the rare Grass-types in LC.

It's OK when something is outclassed by just 1 doppleganger, but when Onix is looking at being worse than 3 different better Pokemon with better stats and better movepools, you're looking at a problem.
 
First of all, why are you such a dick? (to cim) Just curious. Secondly, let's assume both Pokemon are running an Adamant nature, without using EV's.

Geodude: 20 / 15 / 16 / 8 / x / 9

Onix: 20 / 12 / 22 / 13 / x / 11

Now as you can see, without EV's, Onix has EXTREMELY superior stats in Defenses, less Attack, and much better speed. Now, when both Pokes speed and attack are maxed, with the rest invested in bulk, this is what we get.

Geodude: 21 / 18 / 17 / 11 / x / 9

Onix: 21 / 15 / 22 / 16 / x / 11

Now after a Rock Polish, Geodude hits 22 Speed as opposed to Onix 32. I mean it barely outspeeds Elekid at +2... Now after a Rock Polish, Geodude get's outsped by Scarf Chincou, Scarf Gastly, Scarf Gligar, Scarf Houndour, Scarf Mankey and Scarf Snover, ALL WHO OHKO Geodude. ONIX KOS ALL OF THEM (gligar with explosion). Also, Onix isn't as vulnerable to Sucker Punch like geodude is. Now, let's invest Onix with just enough speed to outspeed Scarf Gliscor and put the rest in bulk, and see what we come up with.

We now get (for Onix): 21 / 15 / 22 / 14 / x / 13. or 23 / 15 / 22 / 14 / x / 11 depending on if you want more overall bulk or Special bulk. Now umm.... aside from better speed which lets it outspeed so many more Scarfers and better bulk, where is this outclassed?

Edit: Another thing you have to see, is that if you run two of the Rock polishers on the same team, one can weaken counters to allow the other to sweep. Onix can come in late game, take out all the faster scarfers that geodude and rhyhorn hate, and even croagunk if you run chople and/or have ss support, and give geodude/rhyhorn a free path to sweep.
 
I fixed the EVs a little on the Rock Polish set to make it max attack, enough speed to out speed jolly scarf Gligar,then the rest in HP. I used the Smogon damage calc for Croagunk against this Onix, and Fake Out does 2 damage, then Vacuum Wave does 14-20 damage. so Max is 22 damage, which is exactly what Onix reacher, so you would just hope they don't roll max damage against you to survive.

156 HP / 236 Atk / 116 Spe

Ill edit that into my other post with the RP set.
 
Bob. I like the spread with speed enough to outspeed gligar after a RP and 1 extra point in hp with 2 extra in SpD. his def is already crazy good so i don't think hp is necessary to boost it any further. it also helps against croagunk which is a huge plus.
 
Ok, I went through the damage calculator a little, and found out this. With the leftover EVs, you can either give 2 to HP, or 2 to SpD, or split 1 each. I did some calcs with croagunk and with them all in HP(22 HP), Fake out does 2 damage and 14-20 with Vacuum Wave, so it has a hard time KOing it. With it all in SpD(20 HP), Fake out does 2 damage again as well as Vacuum Wave doing 14-18 which still KOs Onix with max damage rolls. If you split the EVs then it just does worse. What I think is that putting them all in HP would be better as they have a farther range of attack from 14-20 instead of 14-18 to try and KO and would need better luck on the RNG. Unless that doesnt matter and it has the same chance, I think it would be better overall in HP.
 
ok, in sandstorm, Vacuum Wave does 12-14 with the EVs invested in SpD which means after Fake Out, you will have 6-8 HP left depending on the damage roll. Which is good. For HP, it goes 14-18 damage, with Fake Out, you would be left with 2-6 HP after the attacks. So the conclusion would be with SS support, go with the SpD EVs, and without SS, go with HP EVs.
 
I have used Rock Polish Onix numerous times, and I can say it is LARGELY outclassed by Larvitar, Rhyhorn and Geodude (and Gligar, Cranidos, Anorith and Aron if you want to count other Rock-types and Ground-types). Explosion hardly matters when the other Pokemon have much better coverage than Onix. Rhyhorn has the elemental fangs and Megahorn, Larvitar has Crunch and Geodude has the elemental punches and Sucker Punch. I'm not sure about you, but I'd like to hit as many Pokemon as possible without killing myself. The high Speed is nice, but if I wanted a fast Pokemon with STAB EQ, I'd go with Gligar. As a QC member, I will say Rock Polish should go in OC and I do not approve it.

The lead set looks good. I've seen it been used a lot (mostly on PO) and it always seems to get Rocks down, which is what Onix is supposed to do. The SS Wall set look interesting, although I'll have to see it in action a bit before I approve. I've tried using phasing moves in LC on Shieldon and other Pokemon and they never seem to work, but maybe Roar will work on Onix, I dunno. Not many other options then those two, though. Onix is kind of a one-trick pony.

Nice work so far, Bob!
 
considered it, i have to agree that in the long run, rp onix simply isn't worth using over other viable rock polish users, and although we shouldn't discriminate mainly on that, onix has other actually viable options that arent largely outclassed.

i thought maybe a double rp kind of thing would have worked, but tbh, there are just better options for that (rp geodude/rp gligar works much more effectively for example).
 
There's no point in using it for its mediocrely above average speed and then boosting it's stats to... what, explode for a cheap kill? You'd be better off picking something that didn't take three turns to explode right from the get go.

There are just too many threats in the early and late game that can take it out... if it had a different typing maybe, it'd be able to setup.
 
I don't know if you noticed, but it has base 160 defense. It sets up all over <insert something physical that doesn't know aqua jet/waterfall here> But i guess it's not powerful enough so it doesn't warrant a set.
 
Okay, SS Wall Onix is actually pretty cool. Two major changes should be made, though. First, get rid of 76 Atk EVs, it's over the 510 EV limit. I would change it too 236 HP / 236 SpD / 36 Spe, you get 14 speed which is enough to outpace Aron before a Rock Polish and hit it with Earthquake. Second, replace Roar with Explosion. Roar and Whirlwind are too hard to use in Little Cup without a recovery move, so Explosion is way more useful.

Also on Pokemon Online, I was fighting someone who was using a surprisingly good Onix. While Rock Polish Onix is outclassed by Rhyhorn and Geodude, neither of them hit the magic 14 Speed. Onix gets 17 Speed, making it a surprisingly good Scarfer. It's only real competition as a Scarfer is Cranidos (Larvitar should always be holding a status orb, Anorith and Gligar have better options than Scarf, etc.). Scarf Onix's advantages over Cranidos is it at least ties with Mankey when using a Jolly Nature and it doesn't take SE hits from Bullet Punch. I think a Scarf Onix set with Double-Edge / Earthquake / Stone Edge / Explosion should go in the analysis.
 
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