Gen 4 OU - Its not a rain team

[YouMeAndRNG]

The initial concept of the team was built around Kingdra being kind of an awkward first match-up to just about anything because of typing advantages. Through the team builder it evolved into a rain optional concept, where rain is helpful but not necessary to winning. Most rain teams are a bit gimmicky (i.e. the stupid qwilfish ludicolo junk that runs around) and can be played around fairly consistently for most team builds. Here, getting rain up can often be a win condition but there are plenty of other ways to outlast the opponent. Opposing threats include faster zapdos, defensive rotom, and knowing when to click rain dance vs. initiate other offense.

PokePaste: https://pokepast.es/cc80fb5e5f3503f5

Kingdra @ Choice Specs
Ability: Swift Swim
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Draco Meteor
- Surf
- Hydro Pump
- Ice Beam

Specs Kingdra is a terror for most leads. It functions in a similar way to offensive Empoleon leads, but because Kingdra scares anything passive/slower than it, I often find that I unleash something powerful turn 1 and then preserve the Kingdra for later in the game. Bonus points if you get hit with a taunt anticipating rain. Specs Kingdra is pretty good at either denying rocks or denting something pretty substantially. I run modest to get the most out of specs, but I could probably decrease the speed to 263 and throw the rest in bulk if just I wanted to beat Breloom. Common game script usually involves blasting the opponent turn 1, eliminating Kingdra threats mid-game, and then setting rain to blast through the lack of water resist late game in DPP OU. Clefable looking to switch in are also surprised when 50% - 60% of its health is knocked by a specs hydro pump -- without

Bronzong @ Damp Rock
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 60 Def / 196 SpD
Sassy Nature
- Rain Dance
- Stealth Rock
- Explosion
- Earthquake

Bronzong really appreciates the rain because it effectively removes its lone type weakness. Damp rock designates bronzong as the primary rain setter on the team, though I haven't experimented with custap, which could also be useful. Bronzong's job is to set rain, stealth rock, and then explode. My instinct used to be to set rocks on the first bronzong turn, but I think setting the rain is more useful to curbing opposing heatran that come in, which Bronzong has enough bulk to take fire blasts in the rain and return fire with EQ. If I'm in the end game, explosion presents a risk free switch in for Kingdra to clean house.

Machamp @ Leftovers
Ability: No Guard
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Atk / 252 Def
Impish Nature
- Substitute
- Bulk Up
- Dynamic Punch
- Payback

Machamp is the punisher for opposing Tyranitar. This set is rather unique in that it aims to turn Machamp into a physical wall after one bulk up. Behind a substitute against physical offense, Machamp quickly becomes a win condition. Substitute helps to mitigate status that tries to come in and bypasses predicting Rotom switch ins when the opponent is obviously switching out. The lack of coverage does limit versatility against the likes of dragonite and gyarados, but if Machamp gets at least one bulk up before a physical threat comes in, it's going to get its confusion. As an added bonus, Machamp appreciates rain clearing sand to let leftovers take effect, provided the opponent isn't running a strong water mon.

Starmie @ Colbur Berry
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Rain Dance
- Thunder Wave
- Hydro Pump
- Ice Beam

Starmie was initially running rapid spin over rain dance but I had a hard time getting this to be reliable. I also found that the team could use a secondary rain setter to enable Kingdra late game (discovered as I found Kingdra often survived later than expected). Starmie actually does a pretty decent job of this -- if Tyranitar comes in looking to ruin Starmie's day, it can set the rain and then pound it with a boosted Hydro Pump. Thunder wave has some decent (cheese) synergy with Machamp, but perhaps something more offensive here (or rapid spin) would be a better use. The speed crippling elements alone really help neuter a lot of threatening, bulkier mons (Jirachi).

Gyarados @ Wacan Berry
Ability: Intimidate
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Waterfall
- Payback
- Earthquake

Gyarados opens another win condition on dragon dances, and can slow opposing set up sweepers with intimidate. The Wacan berry helps surprise opposing scarf Latias, after which a payback is given, or on Starmie. I realize that payback + boosting speed is relatively asinine, but in cases where Gyara either hasn't set up, the dark type coverage is nice and gives super effective damage on Starmie. If Gyarados is able to set up in the rain, common physical checks that like to come in on waterfall are suddenly being chunked pretty substantially, especially after rocks (rain + DD + rocks can potentially end Zapdos).

Latias (F) @ Choice Specs
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Draco Meteor
- Healing Wish
- Surf
- Dragon Pulse

Initially I was running a Sub-Calm Mind Raikou set but it wasn't really doing its job. I felt like the team was missing a healing wish, as just about every mon appreciates it. Facing a Dancing Tyranitar in the last spot? Heal up Machamp. Think Kingdra + Rain can finish the job? Heal up Kingdra. Gyarados sweep blocked by pesky rocks? Healing Wish. Otherwise, Specs Latias is generally a wrecking ball. It can be somewhat of a cardinal sin to run two choice mons (especially both being special dragons), but levitate is nice because this team doesn't generally do super well with hazard stacking and its a top tier option in general.

 

[mackie]

Nice team, but I have one suggestion off the bat:

Qwilfish > Gyarados
*Specifically the Swords Dance set

Why? For three reasons:
1. Qwilfish can absorb Toxic Spikes upon switch-in thanks to its secondary Poison typing. Toxic Spikes pretty much ruins your Machamp and weakens your Kingdra, so being able to easily eliminate them would be helpful.
2. It can act as a lure for bulky waters, which your team seems to struggle with - for example Milotic, Suicune, Vaporeon, Quagsire - and then proceed to destroy them with Explosion. I noticed your team has no good way to stop bulky waters who can easily wall or phaze you out. Sure they don't like taking Latias's Draco Meteors or a Bronzong Explosion, but most skilled players would know to avoid that. This Qwilfish will give you another option to take out the opponent's bulky water, which can open the door for another one of your sweepers later on in the match.
3. Lastly Qwilfish can speed-tie with opposing Kingdra, who may be able to sweep your team with the Rain you set-up. This at least gives you the chance to take out opposing Kingdra in the case that they get out of hand while taking advantage of your own rain.

Edit: I just thought of another suggestion -

Jirachi > Starmie
with a set of:

Jirachi @ Leftovers
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: x / x / x
? Nature
- Rain Dance
- Thunder
- Water Pulse
- Iron Head

I think this set could be successful for your team for a variety of reasons. I'll list them now:
1. If Bronzong booms early, you've lost your only Steel type. Having a backup Steel should prove helpful for all of those useful resistances they provide.
2. The moveset here should provide your team with a lot of useful synergy. Rain Dance gives you a 100% accurate Thunder, as well as a boosted Water Pulse. The benefit here is that you can hit bulky waters super-effectively with Thunder, which may mean that you might not even have to rely on Qwilfish's Explosion and instead he can sweep on his own. Also the secondary effects on Thunder and Water Pulse are also boosted by Serene Grace, which can make Jirachi incredibly annoying in the rain (Paralysis + Confusion + Flinching). I think Leftovers should be used here over Damp Rock, primarily because you'll get a lot of free turns due to hax and therefore can use those turns to heal yourself. Lastly I left the EVs and Nature up in the air for you to customize. Maybe you want to focus more on SpA to get the most out of Thunder and Water Pulse, or maybe you want to focus more on bulk for longevity.
3. Jirachi is also still a good answer to Tyranitar, with Iron Head to hit it super effectively and the bulk to take a hit or two.

First match with new team - https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen4ou-2173571027-anzi1a4t9zeb41r0rszm33sw8405ut0pw
Good example of using Qwilfish's Explosion on Vaporeon so that Kingdra can clean with Hydro Pump - https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen4ou-2173588734-3rzppl6q308voeawub0e8kgsjb3ihqkpw
Would have won this if it wasn't for the crit on turn 28 - https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen4ou-2173595624
Loss but good match - https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen4ou-2173645851
Good Jirachi - https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen4ou-2173684742-uedibcvik2guhxp5xw7ctoffeu8danqpw
Good match - https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen4ou-2173780661
Good match - https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen4ou-2173791237
Good Jirachi - https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen4ou-2174123780
Machamp with a comeback - https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen4ou-2174127736
Good match - https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen4ou-2174145092
Machamp sweep - https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen4ou-2174763544-evck44va2wisw2nmcucpi6d14ac8rmtpw
Loss to a Shedninja - https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen4ou-2179098177
Kingdra sweep - https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen4ou-2181856783

A last thought would be to give Latias a Choice Scarf, just because outside of Rain I feel like I want a speedy mon to take out stragglers (for example Kingdra a lot of the time does like 96% damage). Another thought would be to put Bullet Punch over Sub on Machamp for this reason.

Edit: One last tweak - I think Latias should run Rain Dance over Dragon Pulse, just to have one more Rain setter in a desperate situation.

 

[mackie]

Sorry for the double post but I think this Latias is your best bet:

Latias (F) @ Damp Rock
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Draco Meteor
- Rain Dance
- Light Screen
- Healing Wish

I was testing this and I think its better for three main reasons:
1. It gives a rain setter that is resistant to Fire attacks. For example it can easily set up rain on like Heatran and Zapdos which Bronzong and Jirachi cannot. I chose not to invest in bulk because the speed and power is still appreciated when needing to set up a quick Rain Dance or a drop a powerful DM. It can get away with this thanks to its useful set of resistances and natural bulk.
2. Late game it can set-up rain and then Healing Wish to restore Kingdra/Qwilfish.
3. Late game it can set-up rain to clear Sandstorm, set-up Light Screen and Healing Wish to Machamp to give him a good avenue to set-up and sweep. I chose Light Screen since Machamp is already physically bulky. Although Reflect could also work due to it helping against Pursuit.

Overall I think it is a more flexible Latias that jives with the strategy of the team more.

Oh and I think Bronzong should run Gyro Ball over Earthquake. This is mainly to prevent Gengar from setting up Substitute on you which would ruin your team's momentum, and also hits Tyranitar harder. Earthquake is only really there for Heatran I think, and your other mons cover him well enough.

Lastly I want to mention I was testing ChatGPT's team rating ability and this was what it offered when posting your team with descriptions and telling it to rate it as a DPP competitive team:

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Your Gen 4 OU team has a solid foundation with a strong balance of offense and utility. Here are some suggestions to fine-tune your team:

### Kingdra @ Choice Specs
**Ability:** Swift Swim
**EVs:** 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
**Nature:** Modest
**IVs:** 0 Atk
- Draco Meteor
- Surf
- Hydro Pump
- Ice Beam

**Suggestions:**
- Your Kingdra set is solid, but consider replacing **Hydro Pump** with **Rain Dance** if you find that setting rain later in the game is often necessary. This allows Kingdra to set up its own rain if needed, but if Kingdra often works best without setting rain itself, keep Hydro Pump for better immediate power.

### Bronzong @ Damp Rock
**Ability:** Levitate
**EVs:** 252 HP / 60 Def / 196 SpD
**Nature:** Sassy
- Rain Dance
- Stealth Rock
- Explosion
- Earthquake

**Suggestions:**
- If Bronzong’s primary role is to set rain and stealth rock before exploding, **Custap Berry** can be considered for a guaranteed Explosion if it’s low on health. However, **Damp Rock** is still a great choice for extending rain duration.
- **Gyro Ball** could be considered over Earthquake for more consistent coverage against faster threats. This helps against Pokémon like Starmie and Latias.

### Machamp @ Leftovers
**Ability:** No Guard
**EVs:** 248 HP / 8 Atk / 252 Def
**Nature:** Impish
- Substitute
- Bulk Up
- Dynamic Punch
- Payback

**Suggestions:**
- **Stone Edge** can replace **Payback** to cover flying types and provide more offensive utility. While Machamp can struggle against dragons, having Stone Edge can help with Pokémon like Salamence and Gyarados.

### Starmie @ Colbur Berry
**Ability:** Natural Cure
**EVs:** 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
**Nature:** Timid
**IVs:** 0 Atk
- Rain Dance
- Thunder Wave
- Hydro Pump
- Ice Beam

**Suggestions:**
- If you want to improve Starmie’s offensive presence, consider replacing **Thunder Wave** with **Rapid Spin** or **Recover**. Rapid Spin helps with hazard control, while Recover provides much-needed longevity.

### Gyarados @ Wacan Berry
**Ability:** Intimidate
**EVs:** 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
**Nature:** Adamant
- Dragon Dance
- Waterfall
- Payback
- Earthquake

**Suggestions:**
- If you find yourself using **Payback** infrequently, **Stone Edge** could be a better option to handle flying types and other threats.

### Latias (F) @ Choice Specs
**Ability:** Levitate
**EVs:** 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
**Nature:** Timid
**IVs:** 0 Atk
- Draco Meteor
- Healing Wish
- Surf
- Dragon Pulse

**Suggestions:**
- If you’re finding that Latias’s special attacks are not always needed, you might want to try **Calm Mind** over **Healing Wish** for more offensive power and the ability to boost its special attack and special defense. If you prefer keeping Healing Wish, ensure that you have the right balance with Latias’s role in the team.

### Team Overview
- **Hazard Control:** Your team is relatively weak to hazards, especially if Starmie doesn’t run Rapid Spin. If Starmie runs Rapid Spin, be wary of sacrificing offensive pressure for hazard removal.
- **Special Defenses:** Consider if your team needs more special defensive checks, particularly against threats like Specs Jolteon or other strong special attackers.
- **Dragonite Check:** Ensure you have sufficient checks for Dragon Dance Dragonite. Bronzong with Gyro Ball or Starmie with Ice Beam can help with this.

Overall, your team is well-rounded and has good synergy. These adjustments should help enhance its performance and adaptability in different matchups.

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I feel like I am a stronger rater than ChatGPT! Also sorry I was too lazy to fix the weird formatting but yea you can definitely tell the ChatGPT is rating the team as a robot not a human (like its just running through each team-member and offering common suggestions).

 

[YouMeAndRNG]

Haha ChatGPT recommended throwing rain dance on specs kingdra, a unique innovation...I like the Jirachi and Lati recommendations, I do think that Qwilfish relies pretty heavily on rain to be viable though, did you find it was mission critical?

 

[mackie]

Yea Qwilfish is pretty much useless outside of rain but its capability to boom and clear T-Spikes are really useful for the overall benefit of the team. If he can manage to get a Swords Dance up while there are some rain turns left he can be fun to use because he definitely has a death touch (see this match, this match, this match, this match, this match). Its often hard to get to that position though because in the turn of set-up it takes to get the SD he is often KO'd, paralyzed, or phazed. Even if he isn't KO'd, he's heavily damaged by virtually any attack, and then can easily be picked off by priority afterwards. So you just have to find the right window to get one.

Update: I liked this match - https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen4ou-2183163348-r3owdv86ghzhz5niir88t45qzm6cb0ypw
Qwilfish managed to get an SD and take out Gyarados with a Poison Jab, Machamp was effective, and Jirachi won the match in the end.

 

[Jeong]

Why don't you try Bronzong lead and reserve Kingdra? I understand that you can surprise by being starting specs, but I think you can get better results this way.

This is just an option... I was valuing RD on Kingdra with Mystic Water or Wise Glasses even. The only bad thing is that you lose power, and I guess you already have several supports that put rain. You can also give the surprise that they think you are specs and you can eliminate another threat.

I see that Latias has already been suggested to you.... Also, that set seems great to me, as it never hurts to have Light Screen or HWish support. It seems very necessary to me. A similar option is Cresselia, which can also fit well in these teams.

 

[mackie]

The benefit Latias has over Cresselia though is that she offers more useful resistances than Cresselia, notably Fire and Electric, so that she can easily set-up Rain Dance on like Infernape, Heatran, Zapdos, Jolteon, which our Bronzong and Jirachi struggle to do. It may not matter though since Cresselia likely has the bulk to not need the resistance to their attacks. Unfortunately Moonlight health restore is halved in the rain.

A benefit Cresselia has over Latias though is a slower healing move - Lunar Dance. I noticed Latias's Healing Wish is sometimes too fast in the sense that it goes prior to the opponent's move just due to Latias's naturally higher base speed and tendancy to invest in its speed stat. Unfortunately this sends the restored team member straight into another attack or status move, which is a bit counter-intuitive to using Healing Wish. On the other hand Cresselia can take the hit and then restore the team member untouched.

Update:
Winning a match versus a >1500 player that showcased the benefit of Latias's speedy Rain Dance as well as Reflect, as well as the benefit of Machamp versus a scarf Tyranitar - https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen4ou-2183392710
The PP restore of Lunar Dance would actually have been appreciated here for Machamp - https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen4ou-2183493993-1yqogsg1rlyt6ppumb393h8bnj4vse8pw
Good Machamp - https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen4ou-2183683468-q01nykgjaob45rtu9zltkxzyyk45k7ypw
Beat a 1588 - https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen4ou-2184072735-2s4063lzv5tvdzpnqf2j9tvtep7k60apw
Unfortunate Hydro Pump miss, Machamp won it in the end - https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen4ou-2184170953