I guess I'll also comment on tiering, since I'm here. I think the ban argument for solgaelo, given a future test that I doubt we'll have, is that it does too many different things too well. Another way of saying it is that it's sets have counterplay, but the counterplay would be pretty different from set to set. I don't think any one set would be broken per se, but if they keep Solg in the back and don't reveal set details until late game, you might think you need to prioritize HP on one form of counterplay and find out too late that you actually needed X mon healthy instead of Y. I just don't see a world in which this is a healthy mon in OU, but I know others disagree.
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Metagame OU + Solgaleo Metagame Discussion
- Thread starter FayaWizard
- Start date
I've only played a few games on the ladder with MixedLO and Choice Band sets. I think Solgaleo is fine in the metagame and would probably be one of its top dogs. I also have serious doubts on weakness policy sets, because you also need an additional support move like Trick Room and avoid hazards and... yeah.
My main concern would be something else - given that we already have Zamazenta and Kyurem in the tier, if a third box legendary gets unbanned down the line, the community would probably need to have a serious discussion on the "definition of standard play", because by lurking on this site some of the ways it handles competitive pokemon date all the way back to DPP. Standard play always meant box legends are off limits "for fairness reasons" but Ubers was created (initially) as a ban list and later a tier so that people can play with the broken box legends. Zamazenta being unbanned is an aberration from this approach, same with Kyu being allowed ever since BW.
Imagine showing Little Timmy "hey bro this is the game everyone plays" and it's all Solgaleos and Zamazentas. He knows those pokemon from the box arts and is gonna be surprised to see them on the other side.
My main concern would be something else - given that we already have Zamazenta and Kyurem in the tier, if a third box legendary gets unbanned down the line, the community would probably need to have a serious discussion on the "definition of standard play", because by lurking on this site some of the ways it handles competitive pokemon date all the way back to DPP. Standard play always meant box legends are off limits "for fairness reasons" but Ubers was created (initially) as a ban list and later a tier so that people can play with the broken box legends. Zamazenta being unbanned is an aberration from this approach, same with Kyu being allowed ever since BW.
Imagine showing Little Timmy "hey bro this is the game everyone plays" and it's all Solgaleos and Zamazentas. He knows those pokemon from the box arts and is gonna be surprised to see them on the other side.
I was wrong about Choice Band. Banded PsyFangs is strong as balls and Sunsteel isn't needed at all.
Smogon has never been completely against box art legendaries being in OU as seen by Kyurem-Black's presence in the OU meta from Gens 5-7 with Kyu-B's main weakness being it didn't have reliable physical Ice STAB, and then in Gen 8, it got Dragon Dance and Icicicle Spear, and that was history. If enough players can make the argument for why something is arguably not broken, it can be dropped much like Kyu-B was, and Zamazenta was similarly dropped 'cause players thought it'd be balanced in OU. Personally, I don't find Zamazenta to be broken and consider it a valuable check to HO that has a lot of defensive counterplay.
Having said that, I understand people such as malahuju who believe that Solgaleo has too much set variety that it's an additional strain to teambuilding that SV OU doesn't need. SV OU is already full of individual Pokemon that require multiple Pokemon per team to check and adding a mon that can hit hard on both ends of the spectrum may be pushing it in a tier that's already difficult to build for. While Solgaleo is a good check to cheesy playstyles such as Webs and Veil/Screens, it is a big threat itself on a game-to-game basis if players use good sets, and that might not be what we need in a format with so many threats.
While I currently do not believe Solgaleo is a Top 5 mon in the meta, it's difficult to scout since it can pull off CB, Mixed LO, and even Meteor Beam, which while can be phased easily, can do serious damage if you manage to save it for the lategame after Ting-Lu has been KOed or one's Red Card has been consumed since Solgaleo can actually cover a lot of the meta with a Meteor Beam set even if it's a situational set. Solgaleo does make Pecharunt worse due to it not being able to use Parting Shot if Solgaleo is on the opposing team, and that makes Ogerpon-Wellspring better even if Pecharunt can still manage with Foul Play, but not being able to freely use Parting Shot makes it more exploitable, so I'm unsure if Solgaleo is a net positive to the tier.
It's also harder to gauge the true impact of Solgaleo on the meta when the best SV OU players aren't playing this tier with its low activity. Interest in the tier is pretty low since it's not an official suspect test but just a splinter ladder, and a lot of players are preparing for SPL instead of playing the Solgaleo ladder given it's not a ladder that will last, and playing the OU + Solgaleo ladder means not prepping for the true meta. It's also still early, and players will probably still get better at using Solgaleo once they're familiar with what cores work best with it. It's too bad this wasn't an official Likeshop suspect like the Palafin suspect was as we'd get a better gauge of its performance in that sort of environment.
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Aside from bulk (which it is quite vastly bulkier then crown, 137/107/89 vs 90/100/108, which even on the special side leo takes a good chunk less), leo has flame to reliably hit steels without having to rely on focus miss and morning sun to keep itself healthy. These are honestly pretty big things that crown cannot acheive at all. I also think people are focusing too much on stored power, yes it is a valuable tool, but even cm crown doesn't even always use stored power since it does take a little while to get going. But leo is absolutely fine using psyshock or psychic, which are still valuable traits.
Also I need people to stop focusing on dnite multiscale, dnite is not setting up on regardless, psyfang does 35% to it, so its not free, and a +1 dnite eq is doing 83% min, so leo isn't beating it unless it teras. Also banded absolutely needs all the moveslots to work well, as it cannot reliably fit it without being walled by something important (no flare blitz, get fucked by corv, no cc or eq, get fucked by heatran, no cc and ting lu can check you decently well). Even ignoring that, stuff such as wild charge and stone edge are incredible coverage to beat otherwise decent checks. All for an okay neutral move? Psyfangs and steel coverage covers most of sunsteels targets anyways.
I also want to touch on this part here. Heatran and ttar cannot beat flame+psychic, as they just cannot deal enough damage to msun leo behind screens (ttar has to specifically be spdef roar, which while a fine set, isn't something you always want and a lot of ttars go more offensive).
Lets take heatran for example:
Turn 1: Solgeleo switches in on something like pecha, enam or the such that cannot reliably deal with it.
Turn 2: They switch to heatran, leo clicks calm mind on the switch.
Turn 3: Leo clicks calm mind again, heatran clicks magma storm (this is assuming the best case scenario for heatran, so lets assume it hits and they are not lava plume, which does worse into leo). WP procs and leo is at 70%ish.
Turn 4: Leo clicks either psychic or psyshock. Assuming psyshock, heatran takes around 50% as they connect with magma again (if they click taunt, they are always dead).
Turn 5: This is the main tricky part, but now leo can either click morning sun on the heatran (effectively giving it another turn), or click magma again. Lets assume magma storm into psyshock and screens run out.
Turn 6: Leo clicks psyshock again, heatran dies, leo is low but its done its job of trading well.
This is honestly pretty disgusting ngl, the leo user has traded it for a pretty powerful pokemon on their team. And this is assuming the leo user doesn't cm constantly and that the heatran has taunt. If leo calm minds once more to +3 spdef, heatran is doing not nearly as much while psyshock is a clean 2hko. At best case for the heatran user, they have traded, at worst, they have just let leo setup constantly and now it can potentially sweep them.
Lets look at ttars scenarios. Lets look at spdef:
Turn 1: same shit as heatran turn 1.
Turn 2: Same shit as heatran turn 2, except ttar switches in.
Turn 3: Leo clicks calm mind, ttar clicks knock, activates wp.
Turn 4: Leo continues to click calm mind as ttar frantically clicks knock off doing around 20% behind reflect.
Turn 5: Leo calm minds, getting to +6, reflect wears out.
Turn 6: Leo teras to a typing like fairy or fighting (two decent teras already on it), and clicks flame, it doesn't do much, but leo isn't taking much in return.
Then leo precedes to 1v1 ttar because its not doing much back, if its roar, it ofc wins, but thats not always on ttar (see the hydrapple sand sample for instance).
Banded takes less time and needs tera earlier, but for a pokemon that supposedly "always beats you", this is not too shabby. Especially since leo is prob going to be at near full health afterwards, meaning at worst, it can trade with another pokemon
Ting lu you don't beat unless you are last mon with tera flying (which is a lot rarer), but again, pairing leo with mons that can either abuse ting or help overwhelm it isn't that hard. Goltres is honestly an amazing partner for leo, and +2 hurricane chunks ting pretty hard.
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Wow, it can set up easily behind screens? Almost like this can be said for any sweeper behind screens and screens have always been the problem.
I always hated the argument that "something that is perfectly fine can't drop because the tier has enough problems thus making it not perfectly fine by virtue of too many options in the tier".
You could drop solgaleo and yeet dragonite/tera blast to the sun and suddenly that issue becomes obsolete as long as the new addition is healthier than the previous mon, and you could honestly cherry pick a couple once-OU-ubers that would be less egregious if there wasn't other shit to check next to them (I will die on the hill chien-pao was a non-issue individually and it was just in the tier at the wrong time with too much other shit hanging around for it to both counter but also get relieved by, not to mention pre-zama.)
Originally I was pro-keep ban but tbh solgaleo just doesn't actually do anything.. like it has ridiculous stats but its not accomplishing much with them. I did have a funny experiment with metal burst given it can damage sponge well and get a cheese kill off it but besides that I wouldn't mind bringing solgaleo down and sending X to the graveyard instead.
You could drop solgaleo and yeet dragonite/tera blast to the sun and suddenly that issue becomes obsolete as long as the new addition is healthier than the previous mon, and you could honestly cherry pick a couple once-OU-ubers that would be less egregious if there wasn't other shit to check next to them (I will die on the hill chien-pao was a non-issue individually and it was just in the tier at the wrong time with too much other shit hanging around for it to both counter but also get relieved by, not to mention pre-zama.)
Originally I was pro-keep ban but tbh solgaleo just doesn't actually do anything.. like it has ridiculous stats but its not accomplishing much with them. I did have a funny experiment with metal burst given it can damage sponge well and get a cheese kill off it but besides that I wouldn't mind bringing solgaleo down and sending X to the graveyard instead.
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Pecharunt isn't that much worse, Foul Play was the good set anyway and it 2HKOs Solgaleo on the switch. Solgaleo just makes Parting Shot less free which is deserved honestly.
Very funny in hindsight how people were saying Tport+fsight was gonna break this guy. What does he even do?
Simply not gonna claim Solgaleo will somehow fix all the problems with the metagame because it definitely won't. Not because it's broken but because it's just not that relevant lol. Still has positives like checking DD DNite in a pinch, blocking parting shot, checking kyurem. Should free.
Answers to CM/Psy/Flame/Morning:
- Ting Lu: Solg can't do much, Lu clicks Whirlwind. This alone is a big deal
- TTar: Hard counters veil in general, plus Roar is already common/likely the 4th best move on TTar regardless
- Heatran: Yeah sure if screens is up, Leo can trade but like that goes for most mons? Standard veil/screens mons like Gliscor/Ceru/Hatt/Pon do very similar things when you dedicate a teamslot + several turns to supporting and positioning them. Doesn't mean they are broken.
- AV Samu can at minimum trade and set up a revenge kill
- Hoopa also not mentioned
- Also haven't mentioned Dtail Garchomp who takes laughable damage. Also Dtail Dnite.
- You haven't mentioned Roar Moltres which has existed for years at this point and takes embarrassing damage from psyshock.
- Also haven't mentioned Garganacl who trolls this
- There's also things like going to a fat pivot like Gking/Alo then pivoting into an Encore user such as Ogerpon, Valiant, Samurott or Dnite. Or Darkrai to Trick. Or just frankly going hard into them because even Valiant actually lives +0 Psyshock if you get it wrong. Uninvested 113 spa with 80 BP Stab is really something...
- Dondozo exists for fat balances
Note: Phazing out a sweeper on a veil team is almost as good as KOing it, you're undoing so much set-up in one move
Very funny in hindsight how people were saying Tport+fsight was gonna break this guy. What does he even do?
Simply not gonna claim Solgaleo will somehow fix all the problems with the metagame because it definitely won't. Not because it's broken but because it's just not that relevant lol. Still has positives like checking DD DNite in a pinch, blocking parting shot, checking kyurem. Should free.
CM Hatterene is better at this stuff anyway. Problem with screens/veil teams is and has always been positioning and to a lesser extent phazing, excluding the necessary set-up can make any somewhat decent mon seem broken. At least other veil dudes like hatt/pon/rai have immediate power. This guy is laughably weak.
Answers to CM/Psy/Flame/Morning:
- Ting Lu: Solg can't do much, Lu clicks Whirlwind. This alone is a big deal
- TTar: Hard counters veil in general, plus Roar is already common/likely the 4th best move on TTar regardless
- Heatran: Yeah sure if screens is up, Leo can trade but like that goes for most mons? Standard veil/screens mons like Gliscor/Ceru/Hatt/Pon do very similar things when you dedicate a teamslot + several turns to supporting and positioning them. Doesn't mean they are broken.
- AV Samu can at minimum trade and set up a revenge kill
- Hoopa also not mentioned
- Also haven't mentioned Dtail Garchomp who takes laughable damage. Also Dtail Dnite.
- You haven't mentioned Roar Moltres which has existed for years at this point and takes embarrassing damage from psyshock.
- Also haven't mentioned Garganacl who trolls this
- There's also things like going to a fat pivot like Gking/Alo then pivoting into an Encore user such as Ogerpon, Valiant, Samurott or Dnite. Or Darkrai to Trick. Or just frankly going hard into them because even Valiant actually lives +0 Psyshock if you get it wrong. Uninvested 113 spa with 80 BP Stab is really something...
- Dondozo exists for fat balances
Note: Phazing out a sweeper on a veil team is almost as good as KOing it, you're undoing so much set-up in one move
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The point Heatranator was making is that this one set can 1v1 mons that on paper it should lose to. Not to mention that this is hardly the only set. As soon as you switch out one of those moves (or all of them), your counter play is drastically different. For example,
0 Atk Solgaleo Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Heatran: 214-254 (55.4 - 65.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Solgaleo Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 16 Def Tyranitar: 412-488 (101.9 - 120.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
There's no reason a CM solg can't fit a random physical attack to break past as supposed check. Solgaleo has the potentially to be one of the most potent mixed attackers with uninvested attacking stats being 310/262 respectively, not to mention it's insane uninvested bulk. There's just too much customization available.
If you were to give the best builders in SV OU all the tools leo has, it is going to make it hell to play against.
When you add Tera / TBlast on the equation, you can change "Solgaleo" for: Dragonite, Kingambit, Ogerpon Welspring, Kyurem, Gliscor or even Zamazenta and Garganacl. Those are 5 (if we count the last two, which are clearly more balanced and healthier but can again be argued to be as strong when you factor tera, 7) Pokémon completely legal in OU at the momment.
Solgaleo is, at least from me right now, I don't know if it will change in the future, a big ball of stats that due to not having a broken move / ability like a lot of Pokémon that exist in the tier right now, is just nice and strong. If it was legal in OU tomorrow, I don't think that it would break the tier. We don't know once it gets more explored, but that's my first impression.
As RoyalDispenser said, I also agree that some low-tier Ubers are worse than Volcarona, Gouging Fire, Roaring Moon or even Dragonite / Kingambit when you factor TBlast (Zamazenta Crown for example) and are just banned because there are stronger mons in the tier making it harder to balance.
yeah i've been experimenting with physical sets that don't have the move and—i can't believe i'm saying this—i think sunsteel strike might be kind of not good. psyfangs is almost as good of a broad-spectrum click, and dropping sunsteel frees solgaleo up to run much-needed coverage. hell, if you really want a steel move, heavy slam has more pp, matches or exceeds sunsteel's damage on a lot of the things you'd be clicking sunsteel on, and does extra chip to some sunsteel switch-ins. you lose out on damage against heavier things, but a lot of those sunsteel does nothing into anyway, and the few remaining mons can be hit hard by solg's coverage. the only really tangible upsides to sunsteel are that you hit kyurem harder than cc does, you break through dnite multiscale, you can ignore sturdy on the very rare cornerpon (whose sturdy is already the easiest thing in the world to break because she can't wear boots and consistent hazard removal is very hard here), and you hit a handful of resists and neutrals harder. is that really worth the trade-off? seems to me like probably not, even though the kyu and dnite matchups are very important. further research is needed of course
My (short and sweet) thoughts as mostly a casual player with not too much experience:
Pros (User)
Solgaleo can do a lot, its cool as hell to use. Its a strong bulky mon and it reminds me a lot of using Zamazenta or Kyurem, it can run a lot different stuff and dish out some pretty awesome damage with the right sets, and against the right pokemon. Honestly it feels on par with some of the heaviest hitters in the tier. Can set and utilize screens nicely as well.
Cons (User)
Solgaleo sort of struggles a bit against a few pokemon, which is normal for every pokemon. But Solgaleo has such a huge movepool and wants to do a lot of things at the same time but can often feel restricted, and ths leads to Solgaleo having to drop some moves which gives it some unfavorable matchups, it either loses one of its two stabs, or loses one of its 2 coverages then dies to whatever it didnt cover whether that moltres or heatran or i dunno moth or smth. (This is GOOD btw it just shows why Solgaleo {and arguably other weaker ubers and former OU mons} should be allowed or atleast tested in OU again because the entire tier has gotten stronger and box art legendaries arent even the biggest of your worries anymore) and lastly its typings arent really super offensive, it relies on its coverage moves and teras a bit.
Pros (Opposing)
Has a lot of common counters, sets are usually predictable in the first turn, can be shut down quick if bulk isnt invested in, just be prepare dthe same way you prepare for dnite or wogerpon or gambit.
Cons (Opposing)
it can run a lot so just be weary before acting quick, mixed attacker can get annoying, it can hit really hard into a lot of switch ins, kills goat tusk, walls goaterpon and goatnite.
thats all
Pros (User)
Solgaleo can do a lot, its cool as hell to use. Its a strong bulky mon and it reminds me a lot of using Zamazenta or Kyurem, it can run a lot different stuff and dish out some pretty awesome damage with the right sets, and against the right pokemon. Honestly it feels on par with some of the heaviest hitters in the tier. Can set and utilize screens nicely as well.
Cons (User)
Solgaleo sort of struggles a bit against a few pokemon, which is normal for every pokemon. But Solgaleo has such a huge movepool and wants to do a lot of things at the same time but can often feel restricted, and ths leads to Solgaleo having to drop some moves which gives it some unfavorable matchups, it either loses one of its two stabs, or loses one of its 2 coverages then dies to whatever it didnt cover whether that moltres or heatran or i dunno moth or smth. (This is GOOD btw it just shows why Solgaleo {and arguably other weaker ubers and former OU mons} should be allowed or atleast tested in OU again because the entire tier has gotten stronger and box art legendaries arent even the biggest of your worries anymore) and lastly its typings arent really super offensive, it relies on its coverage moves and teras a bit.
Pros (Opposing)
Has a lot of common counters, sets are usually predictable in the first turn, can be shut down quick if bulk isnt invested in, just be prepare dthe same way you prepare for dnite or wogerpon or gambit.
Cons (Opposing)
it can run a lot so just be weary before acting quick, mixed attacker can get annoying, it can hit really hard into a lot of switch ins, kills goat tusk, walls goaterpon and goatnite.
thats all
No need to be snarky, its not helpful in the slightest and just kinda rude. But also, if screens are already seen as problematic, why are we introducing another excellent abuser of them to the tier? One that can overwhelm its supposed checks and has a bunch of set diversity.
But basically this post is my entire point. You have a mon that can not only break through its supposed 'checks' but also can mix and match your moveset to beat it. You may have revealed psy+flame, but are you 100% sure it isn't packing fighting coverage in cc or focus blast? Are you sure it isn't tbolt to nuke the dozo or av hamu? You cannot realistically know until it has revealed it, and that reveal moment could lead to a snowball effect.
But also, cm hatterene is not better, they also are quite different. CM hatterene does have more immediate power and utility for its team, but leo is so much bulkier and actually has reliable recovery. Leo makes up for its "bad power" (which saying 113 special attack is weak is certainly something, its fine in terms of power) by the fact that it can incredibly easily get up multiple boosts easily.
But for the answers:
Yes, ting lu beats it, but that doesn't mean leo cant partner itself with mons to abuse ting lu.
Veil has been trending down, and people are using mons like deo-s to set screens more and more. Roar is a good move on ttar yes, but I would not say its the best move on it fourth. After rocks, knock, ice coverage, you want all of t-wave, low kick, stone edge just as much. The hydrapple sand sample for example, does not have it. Nevermind that banded ttar (a very good set), never has it.
Sure ig?
Hamu trades, but that is pretty fine for the leo user, as they have traded a valuable defensive and offensive piece for leo, and its also not guarenteed to revenge kill, since tera water variants take not too much from ceaseless.
Hoopa does do well into leo, but hoopa can be a bit awkward to fit onto teams, and doesn't immediately want to switch in due to leos potential of being physical, which just nukes it.
Taking 30% from these attacks is not 'laughable', especially on a pokemon with no recovery. And for dnite, you are guarenteeing you break multiscale, so you have still come out on top.
Again, taking 30% is not 'laughable' damage. Especially when it doesn't do much to you otherwise.
Unless it is curse, garg literally loses to tera cm leo, so no, it does not troll it. You literally outheal the salt cure chip. If its curse then sure, different story, but 1. If you switch to psychic then you just beat it and 2. you aren't wanting to switch garg in immediately on leo incase its knock, which kinda just ruins it.
This is very unreliable, and you can say this as a blanket statement to any setup sweeper. Doesn't mean much. If that leo clicks psyshock on that val, sure it lives, but it either now dies (essentially not doing much) or has to switch out (losing booster and becoming way less threatening). We could also easily see mental herb to counter encore/taunt too, don't see why not, leo has pretty great item flexibility.
Unless you 100% know that leo is psyshock flame, you are never switching dozo into it. And even still, you either 1. Are curse waterfall, which beats it sure, but is not desirable in the meta rn or 2. Lanche+body press, which actually gets pp stalled since body press doesn't do enough damage (around 20%, which is hella pp stallable) and lanche is doing pity damage.
Also the only two phasers that beat it reliably are ttar and ting, everything else either just loses to it or is unreliable.
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I like how these replays are basically "Ttar + Excadrill doing very well and ig Solgaleo is there too"Welp i just recently won a small tour hosted by Pokeaimmd. Although it was not much, it certainly brought me joy.
Team (take inspiration from the famous Subs Excadrill team):
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https://pokepast.es/e8d8b03220f8704c
Link replay:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ousolgaleo-2512341411-cfiv2tnxojqy6779jx5400b201bpas5pw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ousolgaleo-2512337813-8qwls0bbnl386w9djfughe4ap1p407epw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ousolgaleo-2512346699-810vu903dsq52u772alanlqflvysi7cpw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ousolgaleo-2512350326-6s28c34y1furqmlxgu09fy7m00jlyl0pw
You forgot to bold the next (and most important) sentence from my post. The key is that the Solgaleo answers are not going to be the same when the sets change. For the most part, the other mons you mentioned (outside of Kyurem who I would have voted to ban a while back) have similar counterplay for their set variations. For example, dnite and pech / keeping hazards up can handle most all ogerpon sets and pech can handle many of the viable dnite sets. In a tier where the top threats are already constraining building, why would we add a new mon requiring 2-3 checks to handle?
Well, I wasn't expecting to come back to this. We had all the excuses about why a no Tera ladder couldn't happen, but now there is a Solgaleo one? I understand the likeshop is different, but still. I fundamentally disagree that Ubers like Palafin or Solgaleo will ever fix the tier's powercreep issue. But since this is what we have, and it's just for fun, let me give you my thoughts on Solgaleo.
First of all, I think it's going to wind up broken because the stats are high, the movepool is diverse and good, and Tera exists to further supplement this. Also, it's a freaking Uber Title legendary. From what I can gather, a lot of the times where Solgaleo feels lacking or inconsistent is mostly just about needing to dial in the sets more. This mon has so much it can do that you really need to have ruthless efficiency is determining stuff for that.
Second, I'm surprised how much difference there is between some of the opinions here and my own. Don't agree that is broken? Well, let me help you break it. I could be wrong because it is early, but here are my initial impressions...
A. Noob Traps
Note that I'm not saying these are totally bad or that people who think they are good are bad or a noob or whatever. Just that these options aren't as good as they might seem on first impression. Although, these are my own first impressions so... Anyways, these don't feel good to me.
1. Choice Band:
I don't think it's that great. Solgaleo has STABs that aren't the best offensive types. It has great coverage. The speed tier is kinda slow. There are no truly spammable single moves. It really wants to switch up moves. I don't think CB is completely bad per say, but I hate playing it on Solg. I know it looks like it is a brute force wallbreaker, but it certainly seems to play like more of a technical wallbreaker. You win with coverage and the threat of, at least possibly, different attacking types. Not being able to switch attacks just seems too easy to play around here.
2. Flame Charge:
Holy crap does this feel bad. A 50 BP non-STAB move isn't being run for damage. The base speed is only 97. That's not exactly great. It used to be that you needed to outrun all the base 100 mons to be fast. To be fast in this gen, it's more like 110 as that bar. Base 97 speed is below even the old base 100 speed tier that many mons fell in. Your slow! And one speed boost feels way too slow starting to be threatening. I have never lost to a Flame Charge Solgaleo in my life. I'm not calling most of the things in this section bad for sure, but this move certainly is. You want speed? Run Agility! It's way more threatening and you need less speed EV investment.
3. Assault Vest:
This feels very inconsistent. I understand why it would be appealing with the base stats, but I think this doesn't give you enough offense or utility. Solgaleo has such great utility moves like Teleport, Roar, Trick Room, and even healing through Morning Sun. AV takes all that away for a 4 attack set that doesn't do enough to fat. You can trade ok into some squishy, offensive mons. But this is situational, you almost always go second into said offensive mons because you are only base 97 speed, and there isn't much else that makes progress. I think the defensive sets need to be honed in on the utility.
4. Heavy Duty Boots:
What are we doing here? You resist rocks. Webs and T-spikes don't do anything to you. The only concern is Spike stacking, which is a concern for every grounded mon. Just run proper hazard clear and/or run offensive pressure to prevent the Spikes from getting to 3. I understand boots spam is a strategy, but this is one of the most anti-hazard mons we have. Run a real item on it. Even Air Ballooon would be better for a temp Ground immunity.
In fact, I'd go so far as to say that Solgaleo really frees up teambuilding strats with minimal boots. You have this and another anti-Webs mons or two, such as Serp, a Flying type, or Clear Body Pult, and suddenly your team doesn't care about Webs. This and a Ground type don't care about Rocks. This and a Flying and/or Poison type allows pivoting even with T-spikes on the field. Etc. You have good options for building hazard resistant teams with limited boots when Solgaleo is involved.
5. Full Speed Investment:
This feels bad to me. Every time I try to make a set, I really want to boost the power and/or defenses of this mon. Putting half of those into speed to still not outrun enough doesn't feel great. Yes, there are good speed tiers to beat like Kyurem and Lando-T. I don't feel like it's enough to justify the full investment. If you want to be fast, use Agility and less speed EVs. Otherwise, slower and bulky seems like the way. And to be clear, I'm not saying no speed investment. But like, you don't need any investment to be faster than Gambit. You are faster than all but Timid Raging Bolt with just 80 speed EVs.
What else is there? Maybe Great Tusk is a big one, but most teams have defensive checks to that. Well, Timid Bolt and neutral nature Tusk both hit up to 273 speed. So if you went 274, that's 176 EVs invested for speed. This leaves you with 332 EVs and a Nature, which feels much better than running 252 in speed and only having about as much left to work with on this base stat monster.
Another great thing about the 274 speed tier is that, after an Agility, you can outrun any BE speed Valiant. Here is the math: Timid Valiant reaches 364 EVs. After a 1.5 times BE boost, that becomes 546. With a 2x Agility boost on 174 speed, you reach 548. Now I have given you every reason to never need to invest more than 274 speed even on "fast" sets. You're welcome.
6. Knock Off:
I want to be clear the Knock Off is almost never a bad move. I just don't think it is the right move on most Solgaleo sets. Like the coverage you need to comliment your STABs on offensive sets almost always has better choices. If you want to hit Ghold? Run a Fire move. And you get no Fairy moves, so even goated Fairy/Dark coverage doesn't really exist here. Tera Fairy Tera Blast + non-STAB Knock Off just seems dreadful.
Tera Dark? Ok, that feels maybe better. Knock Off with Roar phasing on a hazard stack? Ok, now we are getting somewhere. But most of the time, Knock Off feels better to me on something else to leave room for Solg to do other things. I would be very selective about which sets I use this move on.
7. Tera Fairy:
Fairy is easily a top 3 type. So this one must seem crazy to many of you, especially given how Solg has the complimentary Steel typing. You get no Fairy moves, though. You becomes weak to Steel types, which Solgaleo's STAB's already don't hit. I get it is maybe more of a defensive Tera, but you really don't need to resist Dragon since you already do. Opposing Bug and Fighting attacks aren't huge issues. I feel like Water or Dragon are better here as pure defensive Tera types.
This might be an unpopular opinion, but I also think Fighting and Dark are better alternatives to resist Dark moves. You get that resistance while also having the possibility of boosting Fighting or Dark coverage moves. Tera Dark also counters the Ghost weakness, which is nice.
Another thing that might seem wild to some is my opinion on Sucker Punch. I don't think you need to resist Sucker Punch with this mon. Just not being weak to it and having those defensive stats is enough for most mons. The biggest hitter is Gambit, which maxes out at 218 speed with full investment and a Jolly nature. Solgaleo, with no speed EVs, already hits 230 speed. So the pressure is on the Gambit player to make a read, not you. And as long as you aren't running some goofy 4 attacks set, you can play around Sucker mind games. Most viable teams pack something for Gambit anyways. That isn't Solg's primary job.
8. Four Attack Sets:
I don't like hardly any of these. For reasons stated above, Choice Band and AV feel lacking to me. Sucker Punch mind games also become worse. I think the more offensive sets really want a setup move like Agility or CM. The defensive sets really want healing and/or utility. I think figuring it out with 2 or 3 attacks is the way to go. If you can't do it in 3 for offensive sets, and maybe even only 2 for defensive sets, I genuinely think you should remake the set. Speaking of...
9. Using both STABs on the same set:
I actually really like Psychic/Steel as a type combo. But as an attacking type combo, neither is the best. Psychic is a bit better, but still flawed. Most of my theorycrafting on offensive sets (or in general) found that sets with only one STAB and coverage moves were more efficient in most cases. Why? Because the 4MSS illusion comes down to only be able to fit so many attacking moves. The way the coverage works with Solgaleo's STABs, you can hit more stuff than with a Psychic/Steel combo. You really need to be more efficient with hitting more of the meta in less moves.
Now I'm not saying no set can run Steel and Psychic. But you really need to be honed in on the efficiency to make that work. And there might be better options anyways.
10. Tera Blast:
I have yet to see Tera Blast sets, probably because the coverage options for this mon are really good. And pretty much all relevant moves are at least 80 BP if not higher. So yeah, don't waste your time. I could understand maybe trying to get coverage that Solg doesn't already have for the surprise factor, but what would that even be? Not much creates an amazing dual attacking combo with Steel or Psychic, but the best options are probably already coverage moves Solg has.
D-nite is the poster child for being able to use all sort of crazy coverage sets both with and without TB. So I'm not entirely dismissing the possibility of surprise TB sets, especially as the Solgaleo meta settles and becomes a bit more predictable. But again, what? Maybe you could do something weird with like EQ + Tera Flying or Fire/Grass, but it doesn't seem efficient enough to justify making a Tera hog for it. It feels like an unnecessary gimmick.
B. The New Meta
Or at least these seem really good to me for now. Again, I could be wrong. But they feel so right.
1. Agility:
Holy crap is this intimidating. If you have never seen a difference between a Solg Flame Charge in front of you and Agility, trust me when I say Agility is way more threatening. You need less speed EVs to outrun more in less turns. The fact that it is Agility means Solg will be switching attacks. So no playing around CB. And Solg almost never dies in one hit unless it's a boosted supereffective move. Like, imagine if Ting Lu could just Agility and be faster than BE Valiant. Isn't that kinda scary? That's Solgaleo, but with amazing coverage options.
2. Tera Fire/Electric:
You want a really good Tera type for this mon? Try these. Electric and Fire were already very good coverage options. Defensively, it's pretty decent as well besides sharing the Ground weakness. But perhaps the best thing about it is the immunity to Burn or Paralysis. As a Steel type, you already avoid Poison. So to avoid one of the other two main status conditions is amazing. Maybe even set up in their face. These are scary Tera types to see on Solg.
3. Life Orb:
I know conventional wisdom among some says that LO chip is bad. But here's the thing: I think switching attacking move is better on Solg. LO is also way better than choice items on mixed sets. I don't know if Weakness Policy is consistent, but LO sure is. And you take chip to trigger the WP anyways. LO also has the advantadge of being immediate power and not caring about Unaware. On sets that are like, Agility and 3 attacks, LO seems really strong.
4. Psychic STAB + Fire Coverage:
If you want to get the most efficient 2 move coverage, I think this might be it. I have tried this with special sets and Tera Fire. But you could certainly run physical or mixed sets as well. Anyways, this frees up room to run two status moves. This adresses a problem of why I think many people felt the defensive sets are bad. They can't make enough coverage work with the utility they want. Psychic/Fire coverage works on offense or defensive sets. It doesn't hit everything, but it hits a lot pretty well for two moves.
5. Roar:
Phasing is one of the most important mechanics in gen 9. How could it not be good? Like Ting Lu, you rarely die to a single hit. So you can just often shut down a potential sweeper or two. Sometimes even sort of farm phasing multiple times, especially with hazards up. Roar is annoying to play against if the set is built right.
6. Morning Sun:
Healing is good. A bulky healing set often lasts longer than an AV one. Morning Sun is mostly consistent in this meta. Outside of rain and a little bit of Glowking CR cheese, only Tyranitar and the rare A-tails HO really change the weather to something Morning Sun doesn't like. You have a lot of options for dealing with those matchups, so I feel like any shortcomings aren't too common and can be made up for in the builder.
7. Covert Cloak:
This item is really underrated. Outside of Garg, you can farm things like Nuzzle Hatt or freeze fishing Kyurem sets. If a Pech wants to Malignant Chain after you Tera to avoid Ghost STAB, you don't have to care about it. And maybe the best thing is that Psychic Noise doesn't stop healing from Morning Sun. So you have a real counter to it that isn't weak to Fighting or Fairy coverage. I really like this Cloak on defensive utility sets. I'm less sure about CM, but I have also had success with other CM mons and Cloak in the past. This is a good item.
8. Teleport:
I'm seeing all some talk about how Teleport isn't good. Huh? For as much crap as I have talked about its base 97 speed tier, Solg is still faster than most of the slow pivots. Yet you can still get the slower pivot off because Teleport is an amazing move. You get the initiative on both sides. That's pretty good. The ability to control the momentum is super important. You just need mons to pivot into to take advantadge of it. That isn't a Solg issue. It's a builder issue if anything. Who are you bringing to take advantadge of that Teleport?
And I want to talk about Sun, too. You know how Eject Button Hatt is run on some Sun teams? You get one free pivot and then maybe you sac the Hatt later. It's not a perfect analogy because hazards, but the pivoting is still limited. Morning Sun heals most of your health and the team can often cover your Fire weakness. A well played Solg is usually getting multiple Teleports off. If you get in, say, Wake under Sun for free like 3 or 4 times, doesn't that drastically increase your odds of winning? To me, Teleport seems like the Sun set. But I'll admit that I need to test it more.
9. Tera Dark:
One of the most frusterating things about using Solgaleo defensively is all the Ghost and Dark types in the tier. Yeah, Fairy and Fighting could accomplish this for opposing Dark moves. But Dark blankets Ghost, too. This allows you to counter both weaknesses while boosting Knock Off or countering a Ghost type defensively. I think this Tera type is really solid on this mon.
10. Trick Room:
Most people I have read here say they like Solg as a TR setter. I mostly agree. But I also think there is more to it. The fact that it can do so many other things makes it more impactful. For example, the threat level of Agility sets are high. For the same mon to also be able to underspeed you and set Trick Room, it's kind of hard to predict. Maybe you could see it easily on an obvious TR team. But what about something less obvious? Maybe you just have Solg and one other slower attacker, and then the rest of the team that isn't all that slow. The mind games with TR just might become a problem.
C. Theorycrafting With The Unknown
Well, at least I don't claim to know. These options feel uncertain to me on this mon. So I have theorycraft sets to test their limits.
1. Sunsteel Strike:
A base 100 power STAB with no drawbacks? Yes, please! Steel as an offensive type? Meh. And what mon does that effect even matter for? I don't feel like it's very important. Yes, it's still an 100 BP STAB with no drawbacks. It doesn't seem unviable. I just don't know if it can be optimal. What I know for sure is this...
Steel attacks are resisted by 4 types:
So here is my attempt to be optimal with Sunsteel Strike:
Solgaleo @ Life Orb
Ability: Full Metal Body
Tera Type: Electric
EVs: 252 Atk / 80 SpA / 176 Spe
Naughty Nature
- Sunsteel Strike
- Thunderbolt
- Earthquake
- Agility
This set hits many things I talked about. You have Agility and the 176 speed EVs. You have mixed attacking with LO. The EVs are meant to primarily favor Sunsteel Strike and EQ coverage power. I don't think you need nearly as much power for Thunderbolt. However, Tera Electric is there if you need more Electric power for some reason. Tera Ground is also maybe an option.
One thing I want to mention is why I tend to run Naughty nature or - spdef natures for mixed attackers in general. Most of the priority in the tier is physical, so I don't want to lower physical defense by any amount on such an offensive set. Thunderclap is an notable exception, but you have the Tera for that if it comes up. I think this is the best way to cover the most of your RK threats.
2. Future Sight:
I don't know if I like this move on Solg. I tested it on some alt with a jank double Future Sight pivot core using Glowking, managed to get within the top 75 in the 1200s after a bit in like a 1300s or barely 1400s max ladder, and then stopped. While there were times it worked, I think the team would have had less defensive weaknesses with just one. Glowking can also come in more times easily because of Regenerator. But the Solgaleo set certainly wasn't bad. I just don't know if it was optimal.
My Teleport results were mixed. On paper, this works well since you can come in the something that threatens the Future Site resists. In practice, I only wound up getting 2 or 3 off against some teams. So I decided to modify the set slightly for a little trolling. I swapped Teleport for Roar and added Throat Spray to trigger off said Roar.
Here is the troll set:
Solgaleo @ Throat Spray
Ability: Full Metal Body
Shiny: Yes
Tera Type: Fire
EVs: 112 HP / 252 SpA / 144 SpD
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Fire Blast
- Future Sight
- Roar
- Morning Sun
I had full investment into special attack power, made each defensive stat hit the 250 mark, and put the rest into HP. No speed required for a Roar set. While the set is hilarious, I haven't tested enough to know if it is actually optimal. Just keep that in mind.
Another thing to keep in mind is that this doesn't make Teleport itself bad. It just might take too many turns to Future Sight, Morning Sun, and then Teleport. Tempo is very important in this game if you aren't playing stall or something. And you aren't using Teleport to bring in some passive stall mon. I feel like the Future Sight pivot combo might be better on Glowking because of its ability. Solg needs to rely on Morning Sun healing, and thus, might take too much time to also throw off a Future Sight. That's all I'm saying.
However, phasing sets are slow by nature. It's not about tempo. This is why I suspect Roar might be a better match for Future Sight here. Throat Spray might be actually good or just a gimmick, but at least it's funny. More testing is needed either way.
3. Solar Beam in Sun:
I already said how I think the best Sun sets are defensive Morning Sun + Teleport. But let me say something about Solar Beam. It's strong. Fire/Grass coverage is no joke. And perhaps the Sun could make up for not having Fire STAB. So I felt maybe this could be an alternative to Psychic/Fire if that gets spammed on ladder too much. Is it good? I don't know. But I want to try it.
Here is the green energy set:
Solgaleo @ Power Herb
Ability: Full Metal Body
Shiny: Yes
Tera Type: Grass
EVs: 80 Def / 252 SpA / 176 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Fire Blast
- Solar Beam
- Meteor Beam
- Agility
This is another 176 EV Agility set. The cool thing about using Power Herb here is it gives you flexability. You can either run Meteor Beam or hit a Solar Beam outside the Sun. Tera Grass is run for Solar Beam, but also for Raging Bolt's Thunderclap since the Def investment was for the physical priority. Also, having a Water and Ground resist in pocket isn't bad on a Sun team.
I decided to make an offensive set here, but it might also be an option to just run this coverage on a defensive set with Morning Sun and Teleport. Or even CM. That's not as fun as Power Herb, though.
D. Conclusion
So I think there is a lot this mon can do. You just need to be really efficient about how you do it. I gave my thoughts on what I think is good, what feels bad, and even gave out a couple silly set ideas for extra inspiration. Hopefully, you all can figure out how to properly break Solgaleo now so that we don't have to find out the hard way on the main ladder. Thank you for coming to my TED Talk.
First of all, I think it's going to wind up broken because the stats are high, the movepool is diverse and good, and Tera exists to further supplement this. Also, it's a freaking Uber Title legendary. From what I can gather, a lot of the times where Solgaleo feels lacking or inconsistent is mostly just about needing to dial in the sets more. This mon has so much it can do that you really need to have ruthless efficiency is determining stuff for that.
Second, I'm surprised how much difference there is between some of the opinions here and my own. Don't agree that is broken? Well, let me help you break it. I could be wrong because it is early, but here are my initial impressions...
A. Noob Traps
Note that I'm not saying these are totally bad or that people who think they are good are bad or a noob or whatever. Just that these options aren't as good as they might seem on first impression. Although, these are my own first impressions so... Anyways, these don't feel good to me.
1. Choice Band:
I don't think it's that great. Solgaleo has STABs that aren't the best offensive types. It has great coverage. The speed tier is kinda slow. There are no truly spammable single moves. It really wants to switch up moves. I don't think CB is completely bad per say, but I hate playing it on Solg. I know it looks like it is a brute force wallbreaker, but it certainly seems to play like more of a technical wallbreaker. You win with coverage and the threat of, at least possibly, different attacking types. Not being able to switch attacks just seems too easy to play around here.
2. Flame Charge:
Holy crap does this feel bad. A 50 BP non-STAB move isn't being run for damage. The base speed is only 97. That's not exactly great. It used to be that you needed to outrun all the base 100 mons to be fast. To be fast in this gen, it's more like 110 as that bar. Base 97 speed is below even the old base 100 speed tier that many mons fell in. Your slow! And one speed boost feels way too slow starting to be threatening. I have never lost to a Flame Charge Solgaleo in my life. I'm not calling most of the things in this section bad for sure, but this move certainly is. You want speed? Run Agility! It's way more threatening and you need less speed EV investment.
3. Assault Vest:
This feels very inconsistent. I understand why it would be appealing with the base stats, but I think this doesn't give you enough offense or utility. Solgaleo has such great utility moves like Teleport, Roar, Trick Room, and even healing through Morning Sun. AV takes all that away for a 4 attack set that doesn't do enough to fat. You can trade ok into some squishy, offensive mons. But this is situational, you almost always go second into said offensive mons because you are only base 97 speed, and there isn't much else that makes progress. I think the defensive sets need to be honed in on the utility.
4. Heavy Duty Boots:
What are we doing here? You resist rocks. Webs and T-spikes don't do anything to you. The only concern is Spike stacking, which is a concern for every grounded mon. Just run proper hazard clear and/or run offensive pressure to prevent the Spikes from getting to 3. I understand boots spam is a strategy, but this is one of the most anti-hazard mons we have. Run a real item on it. Even Air Ballooon would be better for a temp Ground immunity.
In fact, I'd go so far as to say that Solgaleo really frees up teambuilding strats with minimal boots. You have this and another anti-Webs mons or two, such as Serp, a Flying type, or Clear Body Pult, and suddenly your team doesn't care about Webs. This and a Ground type don't care about Rocks. This and a Flying and/or Poison type allows pivoting even with T-spikes on the field. Etc. You have good options for building hazard resistant teams with limited boots when Solgaleo is involved.
5. Full Speed Investment:
This feels bad to me. Every time I try to make a set, I really want to boost the power and/or defenses of this mon. Putting half of those into speed to still not outrun enough doesn't feel great. Yes, there are good speed tiers to beat like Kyurem and Lando-T. I don't feel like it's enough to justify the full investment. If you want to be fast, use Agility and less speed EVs. Otherwise, slower and bulky seems like the way. And to be clear, I'm not saying no speed investment. But like, you don't need any investment to be faster than Gambit. You are faster than all but Timid Raging Bolt with just 80 speed EVs.
What else is there? Maybe Great Tusk is a big one, but most teams have defensive checks to that. Well, Timid Bolt and neutral nature Tusk both hit up to 273 speed. So if you went 274, that's 176 EVs invested for speed. This leaves you with 332 EVs and a Nature, which feels much better than running 252 in speed and only having about as much left to work with on this base stat monster.
Another great thing about the 274 speed tier is that, after an Agility, you can outrun any BE speed Valiant. Here is the math: Timid Valiant reaches 364 EVs. After a 1.5 times BE boost, that becomes 546. With a 2x Agility boost on 174 speed, you reach 548. Now I have given you every reason to never need to invest more than 274 speed even on "fast" sets. You're welcome.
6. Knock Off:
I want to be clear the Knock Off is almost never a bad move. I just don't think it is the right move on most Solgaleo sets. Like the coverage you need to comliment your STABs on offensive sets almost always has better choices. If you want to hit Ghold? Run a Fire move. And you get no Fairy moves, so even goated Fairy/Dark coverage doesn't really exist here. Tera Fairy Tera Blast + non-STAB Knock Off just seems dreadful.
Tera Dark? Ok, that feels maybe better. Knock Off with Roar phasing on a hazard stack? Ok, now we are getting somewhere. But most of the time, Knock Off feels better to me on something else to leave room for Solg to do other things. I would be very selective about which sets I use this move on.
7. Tera Fairy:
Fairy is easily a top 3 type. So this one must seem crazy to many of you, especially given how Solg has the complimentary Steel typing. You get no Fairy moves, though. You becomes weak to Steel types, which Solgaleo's STAB's already don't hit. I get it is maybe more of a defensive Tera, but you really don't need to resist Dragon since you already do. Opposing Bug and Fighting attacks aren't huge issues. I feel like Water or Dragon are better here as pure defensive Tera types.
This might be an unpopular opinion, but I also think Fighting and Dark are better alternatives to resist Dark moves. You get that resistance while also having the possibility of boosting Fighting or Dark coverage moves. Tera Dark also counters the Ghost weakness, which is nice.
Another thing that might seem wild to some is my opinion on Sucker Punch. I don't think you need to resist Sucker Punch with this mon. Just not being weak to it and having those defensive stats is enough for most mons. The biggest hitter is Gambit, which maxes out at 218 speed with full investment and a Jolly nature. Solgaleo, with no speed EVs, already hits 230 speed. So the pressure is on the Gambit player to make a read, not you. And as long as you aren't running some goofy 4 attacks set, you can play around Sucker mind games. Most viable teams pack something for Gambit anyways. That isn't Solg's primary job.
8. Four Attack Sets:
I don't like hardly any of these. For reasons stated above, Choice Band and AV feel lacking to me. Sucker Punch mind games also become worse. I think the more offensive sets really want a setup move like Agility or CM. The defensive sets really want healing and/or utility. I think figuring it out with 2 or 3 attacks is the way to go. If you can't do it in 3 for offensive sets, and maybe even only 2 for defensive sets, I genuinely think you should remake the set. Speaking of...
9. Using both STABs on the same set:
I actually really like Psychic/Steel as a type combo. But as an attacking type combo, neither is the best. Psychic is a bit better, but still flawed. Most of my theorycrafting on offensive sets (or in general) found that sets with only one STAB and coverage moves were more efficient in most cases. Why? Because the 4MSS illusion comes down to only be able to fit so many attacking moves. The way the coverage works with Solgaleo's STABs, you can hit more stuff than with a Psychic/Steel combo. You really need to be more efficient with hitting more of the meta in less moves.
Now I'm not saying no set can run Steel and Psychic. But you really need to be honed in on the efficiency to make that work. And there might be better options anyways.
10. Tera Blast:
I have yet to see Tera Blast sets, probably because the coverage options for this mon are really good. And pretty much all relevant moves are at least 80 BP if not higher. So yeah, don't waste your time. I could understand maybe trying to get coverage that Solg doesn't already have for the surprise factor, but what would that even be? Not much creates an amazing dual attacking combo with Steel or Psychic, but the best options are probably already coverage moves Solg has.
D-nite is the poster child for being able to use all sort of crazy coverage sets both with and without TB. So I'm not entirely dismissing the possibility of surprise TB sets, especially as the Solgaleo meta settles and becomes a bit more predictable. But again, what? Maybe you could do something weird with like EQ + Tera Flying or Fire/Grass, but it doesn't seem efficient enough to justify making a Tera hog for it. It feels like an unnecessary gimmick.
B. The New Meta
Or at least these seem really good to me for now. Again, I could be wrong. But they feel so right.
1. Agility:
Holy crap is this intimidating. If you have never seen a difference between a Solg Flame Charge in front of you and Agility, trust me when I say Agility is way more threatening. You need less speed EVs to outrun more in less turns. The fact that it is Agility means Solg will be switching attacks. So no playing around CB. And Solg almost never dies in one hit unless it's a boosted supereffective move. Like, imagine if Ting Lu could just Agility and be faster than BE Valiant. Isn't that kinda scary? That's Solgaleo, but with amazing coverage options.
2. Tera Fire/Electric:
You want a really good Tera type for this mon? Try these. Electric and Fire were already very good coverage options. Defensively, it's pretty decent as well besides sharing the Ground weakness. But perhaps the best thing about it is the immunity to Burn or Paralysis. As a Steel type, you already avoid Poison. So to avoid one of the other two main status conditions is amazing. Maybe even set up in their face. These are scary Tera types to see on Solg.
3. Life Orb:
I know conventional wisdom among some says that LO chip is bad. But here's the thing: I think switching attacking move is better on Solg. LO is also way better than choice items on mixed sets. I don't know if Weakness Policy is consistent, but LO sure is. And you take chip to trigger the WP anyways. LO also has the advantadge of being immediate power and not caring about Unaware. On sets that are like, Agility and 3 attacks, LO seems really strong.
4. Psychic STAB + Fire Coverage:
If you want to get the most efficient 2 move coverage, I think this might be it. I have tried this with special sets and Tera Fire. But you could certainly run physical or mixed sets as well. Anyways, this frees up room to run two status moves. This adresses a problem of why I think many people felt the defensive sets are bad. They can't make enough coverage work with the utility they want. Psychic/Fire coverage works on offense or defensive sets. It doesn't hit everything, but it hits a lot pretty well for two moves.
5. Roar:
Phasing is one of the most important mechanics in gen 9. How could it not be good? Like Ting Lu, you rarely die to a single hit. So you can just often shut down a potential sweeper or two. Sometimes even sort of farm phasing multiple times, especially with hazards up. Roar is annoying to play against if the set is built right.
6. Morning Sun:
Healing is good. A bulky healing set often lasts longer than an AV one. Morning Sun is mostly consistent in this meta. Outside of rain and a little bit of Glowking CR cheese, only Tyranitar and the rare A-tails HO really change the weather to something Morning Sun doesn't like. You have a lot of options for dealing with those matchups, so I feel like any shortcomings aren't too common and can be made up for in the builder.
7. Covert Cloak:
This item is really underrated. Outside of Garg, you can farm things like Nuzzle Hatt or freeze fishing Kyurem sets. If a Pech wants to Malignant Chain after you Tera to avoid Ghost STAB, you don't have to care about it. And maybe the best thing is that Psychic Noise doesn't stop healing from Morning Sun. So you have a real counter to it that isn't weak to Fighting or Fairy coverage. I really like this Cloak on defensive utility sets. I'm less sure about CM, but I have also had success with other CM mons and Cloak in the past. This is a good item.
8. Teleport:
I'm seeing all some talk about how Teleport isn't good. Huh? For as much crap as I have talked about its base 97 speed tier, Solg is still faster than most of the slow pivots. Yet you can still get the slower pivot off because Teleport is an amazing move. You get the initiative on both sides. That's pretty good. The ability to control the momentum is super important. You just need mons to pivot into to take advantadge of it. That isn't a Solg issue. It's a builder issue if anything. Who are you bringing to take advantadge of that Teleport?
And I want to talk about Sun, too. You know how Eject Button Hatt is run on some Sun teams? You get one free pivot and then maybe you sac the Hatt later. It's not a perfect analogy because hazards, but the pivoting is still limited. Morning Sun heals most of your health and the team can often cover your Fire weakness. A well played Solg is usually getting multiple Teleports off. If you get in, say, Wake under Sun for free like 3 or 4 times, doesn't that drastically increase your odds of winning? To me, Teleport seems like the Sun set. But I'll admit that I need to test it more.
9. Tera Dark:
One of the most frusterating things about using Solgaleo defensively is all the Ghost and Dark types in the tier. Yeah, Fairy and Fighting could accomplish this for opposing Dark moves. But Dark blankets Ghost, too. This allows you to counter both weaknesses while boosting Knock Off or countering a Ghost type defensively. I think this Tera type is really solid on this mon.
10. Trick Room:
Most people I have read here say they like Solg as a TR setter. I mostly agree. But I also think there is more to it. The fact that it can do so many other things makes it more impactful. For example, the threat level of Agility sets are high. For the same mon to also be able to underspeed you and set Trick Room, it's kind of hard to predict. Maybe you could see it easily on an obvious TR team. But what about something less obvious? Maybe you just have Solg and one other slower attacker, and then the rest of the team that isn't all that slow. The mind games with TR just might become a problem.
C. Theorycrafting With The Unknown
Well, at least I don't claim to know. These options feel uncertain to me on this mon. So I have theorycraft sets to test their limits.
1. Sunsteel Strike:
A base 100 power STAB with no drawbacks? Yes, please! Steel as an offensive type? Meh. And what mon does that effect even matter for? I don't feel like it's very important. Yes, it's still an 100 BP STAB with no drawbacks. It doesn't seem unviable. I just don't know if it can be optimal. What I know for sure is this...
Steel attacks are resisted by 4 types:
- Water
- Fire
- Electric
- Steel
So here is my attempt to be optimal with Sunsteel Strike:
Solgaleo @ Life Orb
Ability: Full Metal Body
Tera Type: Electric
EVs: 252 Atk / 80 SpA / 176 Spe
Naughty Nature
- Sunsteel Strike
- Thunderbolt
- Earthquake
- Agility
This set hits many things I talked about. You have Agility and the 176 speed EVs. You have mixed attacking with LO. The EVs are meant to primarily favor Sunsteel Strike and EQ coverage power. I don't think you need nearly as much power for Thunderbolt. However, Tera Electric is there if you need more Electric power for some reason. Tera Ground is also maybe an option.
One thing I want to mention is why I tend to run Naughty nature or - spdef natures for mixed attackers in general. Most of the priority in the tier is physical, so I don't want to lower physical defense by any amount on such an offensive set. Thunderclap is an notable exception, but you have the Tera for that if it comes up. I think this is the best way to cover the most of your RK threats.
2. Future Sight:
I don't know if I like this move on Solg. I tested it on some alt with a jank double Future Sight pivot core using Glowking, managed to get within the top 75 in the 1200s after a bit in like a 1300s or barely 1400s max ladder, and then stopped. While there were times it worked, I think the team would have had less defensive weaknesses with just one. Glowking can also come in more times easily because of Regenerator. But the Solgaleo set certainly wasn't bad. I just don't know if it was optimal.
My Teleport results were mixed. On paper, this works well since you can come in the something that threatens the Future Site resists. In practice, I only wound up getting 2 or 3 off against some teams. So I decided to modify the set slightly for a little trolling. I swapped Teleport for Roar and added Throat Spray to trigger off said Roar.
Here is the troll set:
Solgaleo @ Throat Spray
Ability: Full Metal Body
Shiny: Yes
Tera Type: Fire
EVs: 112 HP / 252 SpA / 144 SpD
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Fire Blast
- Future Sight
- Roar
- Morning Sun
I had full investment into special attack power, made each defensive stat hit the 250 mark, and put the rest into HP. No speed required for a Roar set. While the set is hilarious, I haven't tested enough to know if it is actually optimal. Just keep that in mind.
Another thing to keep in mind is that this doesn't make Teleport itself bad. It just might take too many turns to Future Sight, Morning Sun, and then Teleport. Tempo is very important in this game if you aren't playing stall or something. And you aren't using Teleport to bring in some passive stall mon. I feel like the Future Sight pivot combo might be better on Glowking because of its ability. Solg needs to rely on Morning Sun healing, and thus, might take too much time to also throw off a Future Sight. That's all I'm saying.
However, phasing sets are slow by nature. It's not about tempo. This is why I suspect Roar might be a better match for Future Sight here. Throat Spray might be actually good or just a gimmick, but at least it's funny. More testing is needed either way.
3. Solar Beam in Sun:
I already said how I think the best Sun sets are defensive Morning Sun + Teleport. But let me say something about Solar Beam. It's strong. Fire/Grass coverage is no joke. And perhaps the Sun could make up for not having Fire STAB. So I felt maybe this could be an alternative to Psychic/Fire if that gets spammed on ladder too much. Is it good? I don't know. But I want to try it.
Here is the green energy set:
Solgaleo @ Power Herb
Ability: Full Metal Body
Shiny: Yes
Tera Type: Grass
EVs: 80 Def / 252 SpA / 176 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Fire Blast
- Solar Beam
- Meteor Beam
- Agility
This is another 176 EV Agility set. The cool thing about using Power Herb here is it gives you flexability. You can either run Meteor Beam or hit a Solar Beam outside the Sun. Tera Grass is run for Solar Beam, but also for Raging Bolt's Thunderclap since the Def investment was for the physical priority. Also, having a Water and Ground resist in pocket isn't bad on a Sun team.
I decided to make an offensive set here, but it might also be an option to just run this coverage on a defensive set with Morning Sun and Teleport. Or even CM. That's not as fun as Power Herb, though.
D. Conclusion
So I think there is a lot this mon can do. You just need to be really efficient about how you do it. I gave my thoughts on what I think is good, what feels bad, and even gave out a couple silly set ideas for extra inspiration. Hopefully, you all can figure out how to properly break Solgaleo now so that we don't have to find out the hard way on the main ladder. Thank you for coming to my TED Talk.
I feel like solo TR is kind of a meme. Base 97 Speed is really fast for a TR abuser because anything up to the equivalent of uninvested Base 71 can underspeed, which is a decent number of mons including things like Ting-Lu, Hydrapple, Alomomola, and Glowking. Ting-Lu sets with Rest can also just fall asleep in your face regardless of HP cause oops it goes first now, while Earthquake threatens to 2HKO unless you Tera your Ground weakness away (which might not be an option because this set probably works best at cleaning up endgame and you might have burned it). Agility Solgaleo is probably the better sweeper and doesn't need to worry about potentially screwing over teammates if something weird happens.
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The Sunsteel Strike mention is funny to me because I tried to look over the viability list, and the Meta seems almost uniquely tailored to giving that secondary effect as little value as possible. Solgaleo can't boost ATK outside of Weakness Policy, and literally the only mon where you would want to click Sunsteel AND need to ignore an ability to circumvent the match up is Dragonite for Multiscale (every Unaware or Sturdy mon is either weak to Steel and thus not tanking it anyway with literally any chip, or resistant and thus ignoring even a +2 one). Even a hypothetical Moongeist would be able to promise "true Neutral" into Garg at least.
Solgaleo is interesting to watch the builds come together for me because its movepool is kind of a collection of puzzle pieces that are all for different puzzles, so it's quite an exercise to make the types, coverage, and specific boosts/utility synergize at an OU level, to the degree it's like 10+ sets around a B+/A- level that just collectively make it viable as versatile or hard to answer in totality. It's not hard for it to put in work, but I doubt it'll frequently be able to run away with a game either the way a lot of our S-Rank or even A+ Rank mons can.
Solgaleo is interesting to watch the builds come together for me because its movepool is kind of a collection of puzzle pieces that are all for different puzzles, so it's quite an exercise to make the types, coverage, and specific boosts/utility synergize at an OU level, to the degree it's like 10+ sets around a B+/A- level that just collectively make it viable as versatile or hard to answer in totality. It's not hard for it to put in work, but I doubt it'll frequently be able to run away with a game either the way a lot of our S-Rank or even A+ Rank mons can.