OU Stall(ish) Team Help

Samhain_Grim

I'm relatively new to competitive battling, but I've been messing around with shoddy recently and I feel it would be best to ask for some advice. The following team has taken a few incarnations, but I'm still having trouble perfecting it (mostly due to my stubborn insistence of using some of my favorite pokes, particularly since I'm sick of seeing the same pokemon all the time). It has had some success, mind you; however, if there is some means of making this team better without having to switch it around too much, I'd like to hear it.

Gliscor @ Leftovers
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Ability: Sand Veil
EVs: 248 HP/40 Def/220 Spe
Jolly Nature

-Taunt
-Stealth Rock
-Roost
-Earthquake

I increased his speed investment from 216 to 220 to outrun other Gliscor leads, as the speed tie often screwed me over (and I hardly miss the extra point in HP). I'll taunt if the opponent is slower or Ninjask, then stealth rock on the switch. If the lead is Swampert, I switch immediately to Vaporeon for fear of an ice attack. If I face a trick lead like Azelf, I switch to Tyranitar, which had the added benefit of activating sand stream for when I bring in Gliscor later. He's bulky enough to stall out a lot with roost. Edit: Switched Atk EVs to HP and defense, and it hasn't been a problem so far against lead Metagross. However, kept speed at 220 in case I face other lead Gliscor.


EDIT:
Jirachi @ Choice Scarf
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Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 4 HP/252 Atk/252 Spe
Jolly Nature

-Iron Head
-Thunderpunch
-Fire Punch
-Ice Punch

Replaced Gengar with this after bluewooper's suggestion. Having a second flincher has been proving useful, especially because of the physical attack as opposed to Togekiss's special. Further, as pointed out by bluewooper, it offers me dragon and rock resist, and it has been useful in taking care of Gyarados and Salamence. However, having another fighting weakness is proving to be a problem, which is why I am again wondering if I should get a Rotom forme or even Dusknoir somewhere on the team. As of now, when not threatening Gyarados and Mence, I use Jirachi almost exclusively as a secondary flincher.


Togekiss @ Leftovers
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Ability: Serene Grace

EVs: 252 HP/152 SpAtk/104 Spe
Calm Nature

-Air Slash
-Aura Sphere
-Thunder Wave
-Roost

If there is one pokemon to keep, I'd want it to be this one. Flinchkiss is my staple at this point, and I've had one on every team. She can sponge special attacks pretty darn well, and if she gets in a thunder wave then I have a good chance to take out the opponent's poke. Even if the opponent resists air slash, I'll usually stall with it until they're in range for an aura sphere to KO. This can help with TTar, but only if it switches into paralysis, expecting a different 'kiss set. If not, she gets the heck out of there to avoid the KO with stone edge, and it's back to Gliscor. The fact that she annoys opponents to no end and allows me to pull wins out of my ass makes me believe she does her job, so long as I'm not too reckless and know when to switch. However admittedly, stealth rock damage does hinder her ability to stall. Edit: Got rid of the SpDef EVs and put them into Speed and SpAtk. The Speed boost is much appreciated, though the boost in SpAtk seems negligible, and I rather miss not having to worry about Togekiss dying to thunderbolt. I'll see if anything else can be done.


Tyranitar @ Choice Scarf
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Ability: Sand Stream
EVs: 4 HP/252 Atk/252 Spe
Jolly Nature

-Rock Slide
-Crunch
-Pursuit
-Earthquake

Originally, he was a DDTar with Babiri Berry and Fire Punch, and thus a great counter to Scizor. While I miss that to some degree, I realized I was having limited success with him, and there have been moments where teams with multiple Trick-users have run through me. Making note of the need for a Trick-absorber and the fact that most Trick users are psychic/ghost, I switched to this set. If I have a feeling Trick is coming, I switch him in and Pursuit for the KO. I toyed with the idea of Choice Band, but I felt I needed the speed boost if I'm in a pinch later. Plus, with earthquake he can KO Infernape, who could run HP Ice and destroy Gliscor. I gave him Rock Slide over Stone Edge for the accuracy and chance to flinch, since he out-speeds a lot with Choice Scarf. Having someone to destroy psychic and ghost types and flee is greatly appreciated, as is the speed; however, if he gets hit with Will-o-Wisp or Thunder Wave, he's dead weight.


Vaporeon @ Leftovers
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Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 188 HP/252 Def/68 Spe
Bold Nature

-Protect
-Wish
-Surf
-Toxic

Realizing Gliscor would attract ice and water attacks from certain leads (Swampert, ice fanged Hippowdon), I threw Vaporeon in as a filler. However, it has proved to be immensely helpful. It can take non-STABed electric attacks, allowing it to stall with wish and protect. It can toxic something on the switch and then, depending on the pokemon, sit and absorb attacks. If I know a water attack is coming and I haven't yet revealed Vap, I'll switch it in to recover any spikes/stealth rock damage. It is effectively my main, and perhaps only, method of dispatching bulky water types, and the ability to take ice and water attacks helps Gliscor, Togekiss, and Tyranitar. From my experience, she can get Toxic on Rotom-A, making it easier for TTar to KO it before getting hit with will-o-wisp.


Snorlax @ Leftovers
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Ability: Thick Fat
EVs: 168 HP/120 Def/220 SpDef
Careful Nature

-Body Slam
-Fire Punch
-Curse
-Rest

Originally, he was Scizor. However (here especially is where my stubbornness comes in), Scizor is everywhere. It rather annoys me to the point where I insisted on using Curselax, who in general is one of my favorite pokemon. I don't reveal him until late in the match if I can help it, when hopefully TTar has revealed the opponent's fighting types so I can dispatch them and thus use Snorlax at my leisure. If I know status is coming that would cripple an earlier teammate, I'll throw him in as a sponge. If it's very early in the fight, I body slam as the opponent switches, hopefully paralyzing the switch in (which is most useful if the opponent has pokemon that Togekiss's thunder wave can't hit). If it's mid-game, I'll Curse to test my ground, and switch out if faced with a fighting type (to Vap or Gliscor). If I can eliminate enough threats, Snorlax can sweep. Fire Punch is to hit both ghosts and steels.



Threats:
This is where you come in.

Machamp gives me no end of trouble; ice punch against Gliscor, and having three pokemon weak to fighting is a big problem. Dynamic Punch's confusion is also a big problem if I try to stall with Vaporeon.

DD Kingdra has been a problem, with my only means of taking care of him so far being to switch in Lax and start Cursing as he DDs. I can stall somewhat this way by resting in-between, but this is not the best way to take care of him as Outrage can end me, leaving me with only the option of sending in Jirachi, whose attacks won't be able to KO.

SD Scizor is also a pain if Jirachi is gone and I don't get Gliscor out in time, but I don't know if I can do anything about that except try to keep Jirachi alive.

I would appreciate more suggestions, or blunt honesty saying that there is simply no way to make this team great.
 
Hello Samhain Grim! Looks as if you could use a bit of help with this team.

You have no Rock or Dragon resist on your team. This will make switching into a CB Tyranitar's Stone Edge a tricky and often painful experience. Having no Dragon resist will make stray Draco Meteors and DD Salamence threatening to this team. Steel is the only type that resists both Dragon and Rock. I also took a look at your little "threat list", to help guide me to which Steel Pokemon needed to be implemented. I would replace Gengar with Jirachi.
Why eliminate Gengar? Your team is supposed to help support a Curselax. Gengar only adds to your team's weakness to CB Scizor, as three pokemon can be OHKOed by it. Unfortunately, Curselax is also weak to Scizor, if you incorrectly predict and use Body Slam. Also, your team is on the verge of Semi-Stall, and Gengar is just too frail for Semi-Stall, especially with Sandstorm and Life Orb whittling away at him.

Jirachi%20avatar.png

Jirachi @ Choice Scarf | Serene Grace
Jolly: 4Hp / 252Atk / 252 Speed
Iron Head / Fire Punch / Ice Punch / Thunder Punch

Pros: First and foremost, Jirachi gives your team a valued Dragon and Rock resist. Better yet, Jirachi helps counter some of this team's largest weaknesses. DD Jolly Salamence can be a major hassle with this team. Jirachi will do her part to help check it. With a Choice Scarf and a Jolly nature, Jirachi will be able to tie with, and possibly KO Jolly +1 Salamence with Ice Punch. This can be risky at times, considering that the Jirachi's life, and possibly the game, will lie in a coin toss. To utilize this set, consider switching to Togekiss when Salamence enters, as she will be threatening to use Thunder Wave and thus cripple Salamence. Salamence will then use Outrage to KO Togekiss, at the cost of being locked into Outrage, becoming easy fodder for Jirachi's Ice Punch. DD Gyarados's sweep will be put to an abrupt end when Jirachi comes in, as she will always outspeed with Thunderpunch (Even the Bulky Dragon Dance set is OHKOed with Stealth Rock support). In the past, DD Ttar would come down to a Speed tie. Not anymore! Iron head will deal a swift 2HKO to non-Babiri versions. Babiri Tyranitar should be 2HKOed, if you include Stealth Rock Damage. You will have to hope for a flinch to ensure that Jirachi doesn't fall to Earthquake. As you have seen, Jirachi will make a "fail-safe" (I quote JabbaTheGriffin) revenge killer. One final pro about Jirachi is that she eliminates all Ghost and Dark weaknesses your team had with Gengar.

Cons: There are a few things that you will lose if you change Gengar to Jirachi. First off, you will lose your only rapid spin blocker. This will not be too much of a problem, because you do not have a Spike-Stacking offense. You will lose a reliable Mixape revenge killer, as Shadow Ball dealt 65.9% - 77.8% to the standard mixape. Never fear, as Vaporeon takes a simple 40.8% - 48.2% from Close Combat (Infernape's most powerful move agaisnt Vaporeon), while ensuring a OHKO with Surf. Swords Dance Lucario is only checked by Gliscor, which may be beaten with the uncommon Ice Punch, if you do not use my upcoming suggestion regarding Gliscor. You will lose a Fighting immunity, which may make switching into Machamp a difficulty. The most noticeable loss is the lack of a normal resist. There are many pokemon which utilize Normal-Typed moves. CB Snorlax using Return would be stopped cold. Most importantly, you will have difficulty switching into Leadgross Explosions.

Now, for a closer look at each individual set:

Gliscor: Gliscor should not have attack EVs. Your team seems to be a Stallish team. Knowing that, you will want to implement a physical wall of some kind. True, Vaporeon is capable of taking repeated physical hits. However, you will find that she will be worn down quickly by entry hazards, especially Toxic Spikes. A standard EV spread utilized by Gliscor is Timid: 252Hp / 40Def/ 216Spe. This EV spread is meant to allow Gliscor to act successfully as a physical wall. Maxed Hp adds to Gliscor's mediocre 75 Base Hp. 216 Speed Evs alongside a Jolly Nature allow Gliscor to outspeed Jolly Lucario, dealing 98.2% - 116% with Earthquake, a OHKO with Stealth Rock. The extra 40 Evs are thrown into Defense to maximize Gliscor's physical bulkyness, while still able to Counter Lucario.

Togekiss: You have a set that has a lot of Special bulk, but I cannot see why. Some of the most common Special attacking types are Water, Electric, Fire, and Ghost (which Togekiss is immune to). Water attacks can be redirected to Vaporeon, while Electric attacks can go to Gliscor. Fire attacks can be eaten up by Snorlax due to his Thick Fat ability in conjunction with his massive Hp and SpD stats. I would recommend a simpler set, which will increase attacking power. 252 HP / 152 SpA / 104 Spe allows Togekiss to add to her overall bulk, while outspeeding and crippling Jolly Ttar with Thunderwave. 152 SpA Evs are the extra Evs that are not needed to outspeed Jolly Ttar or to maximize Hp.

The other sets are standard, and I am not going to mess with them, as they look good to me.
 
Thanks a lot, bluewooper, I'll try out the changes as soon as I get the chance to hop back on Shoddy. I had a feeling Gengar had to go, as I stated above, but oh well, those are the breaks.

Any further advice is still welcome, I'm going to mess around with this team a lot before actually training it up (I'll wait for Heartgold to come out).
 
Hello,

Nice team you got and especially after the changes you've obviously already made it seems quite solid.
You should definitely drop all Atk EVs on Gliscor and move them to Speed or Defense.
Your other sets look good to me you, can keep them.
Now to the threats you mentioned:
Machamp: your 3 fighting weak pokemon are a problem. Togekiss will not ohko with Air slash and the 60 % of flinching it is your only way of dealing with it at the moment. Even with a modest nature and max SpAtk it won't ohko many Machamp so putting more EVs into SpAtk won't help. Something you could do is use ZenHeadbutt on ScarfRachi. It won't ohko either but will be a 2nd chance of damaging it at all. You could drop Thunderpunch if you change Toxic on Vaporeon to HP Electric at the same time so you will still be able to handle DD Gyarados. Using Aerial Ace on Gliscor is also possible but not advisable. Your problems won't vanish without major changes.
DD Kingdra: You can't keep your pokemon and deal with it. Everything but Snorlax
is easily beaten. Jirachi can try to chain flinch or run Trick to cripple it. But then you'll lose another move which you cannot afford.
SD Scizor: Really a pain for you.simply nothing can do anything against this thing besides Jirachi.
So you will have to make major changes in order to deal with them. I just want to give you an example:
You could change your tyranitar to ScarfHeatran. This could still check SD Luke but also SD Scizor at the same time. You'll lose your best moves vs Psychics and Ghosts then. This could be remedied by changing Scarf Rachi to Scarf Gengar at the same time. With Shadow Ball it will hit Ghosts and Psychics, with HP Ice it can revenge DD Mence, with TBolt it can check Gyara (so toxic on Vappy can stay), with trick it can cripple kingdra.
Scarf jirachi could also be changed to Scarf Latias. It could hurt Machamp and Psychics/Ghosts with Draco Meteor, Revenge DD Mence, Gyara (with TBolt) and it could revenge DD Kingdra with Draco Meteor.

So many different options... You'll have to try out I guess.
Hope this helped you. Good Luck !
 
LFC Rulez,

In accordance with your example, I switched Jirachi with Scarf Latias and tyranitar with Heatran. Not only do I enjoy not having to worry about sandstorm until the opponent sends out Hippowdon or Tyranitar (though I'm sure Gliscor misses it), but I fought a couple of the threats I listed and I could actually hammer through them (not all the time, but then dynamicpunch is always a pain, and I was reminded a little while ago why Breloom is so annoying, with Spore).

However, I'm much happier with the coverage now, and it makes life easier since I won't have to worry about getting my hands on a Jolly Jirachi for the actual game.

I don't know if I really have any complaints at the moment, I've only been testing it for a while. I'll try out Scarf Gengar just to see how he works. But thanks a lot for the advice, I feel it really helped.

If anyone else wants to throw in their two-cents, feel free. Otherwise, I'm relatively satisfied.
 
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