OU Theorymon (Check Post #173)

[Akumeoy]

I kind of feel like cataloging some good (Don't allow more than one layer of Spikes to go up, don't die) counter-leads to Froslass.

Talonflame: Flare Blitz T1 brings Froslass down to its Sash (and underspeeds T1 Destiny Bond), T2 it can pick Froslass off with Brave Bird before it moves.

CB Tyranitar: 252+ Banded Pursuit drops Froslass to Sandstorm range even if it doesn't switch. If it does, Tyranitar's sand KOs it when it switches back in.

Mega Sableye: Spikes are bounced back, Mega Sableye walls Froslass, Froslass eventually dies (probably to Burn damage).

Weavile: Even without Moxie, it can still click Knock Off T1 and Ice Shard Froslass out of the way T2.

Entei: A 50% chance to burn its way through Froslass's Focus Sash on T1 is great, but it's not as reliable as the others.

Magic Coat is cool for forcing Froslass out, but doesn't actually pose a threat to it. Everything else I can think of is booped by Ice Beam (Thundurus, Mega Absol) or lets too many Spikes get up or has to play games with Destiny Bond.

 

[astroboy]

mega hera is actually a really sick froslass antilead bc rock blast. granted the bulky builds it does best against arent that common

shuca coba was used to be able to actually switch into megalix instead of using doubles n shit to trap it. u could do chople if anything else to be able to take a viriz's cc or weav's low kick.

u could do scarf moltres but idk i absolutely love the power of life orb and im just kinda biased tbh

 

[Isa Simple]

+ Rattled and Moonblast

Is being added to the Archive The Immortal

Mega Sceptile is going to B+
and Gogoat to C

 

[Akumeoy]

mega hera is actually a really sick froslass antilead bc rock blast. granted the bulky builds it does best against arent that common

shuca coba was used to be able to actually switch into megalix instead of using doubles n shit to trap it. u could do chople if anything else to be able to take a viriz's cc or weav's low kick.

u could do scarf moltres but idk i absolutely love the power of life orb and im just kinda biased tbh

Shame about Arena Trap, 'cause that only works for Moltres. What I think you mean is that Shuca would allow it to set up on Megalix.

Megacross is pretty nice, but without Prankster, Froslass can just click Destiny Bond on T1 if it so chooses. And like you said, I see it having performance issues in this meta.

In any case, Mega Lopunny operates similarly, with Fake Out breaking Froslass's sash and Return threatening to KO the next turn.

Another unreliable anti-lead I forgot about is Mega Metagross. It underspeeds a Destiny Bond with any move on T1 while it mega-evolves, and then speed-ties on T2 if it's Jolly.

+ Rattled and Moonblast

Is being added to the Archive The Immortal

Mega Sceptile is going to B+
and Gogoat to C

Mega Houndoom's speed tier is nice in this metagame, and Moonblast lets it dismantle most of its offensive switch-ins. On the downside, it lost its spot as a devastating wallbreaker for sun teams. bump it up to B, I'd say, pending field testing.

Incidentally, the B ranks are feeling kinda bloated; is that a problem? Does a proliferation of viable Pokemon warrant filling up C and D ranks more, or is it fine to just have a lopsided VR?

 

[Salemance]

Shame about Arena Trap, 'cause that only works for Moltres. What I think you mean is that Shuca would allow it to set up on Megalix.

Megacross is pretty nice, but without Prankster, Froslass can just click Destiny Bond on T1 if it so chooses. And like you said, I see it having performance issues in this meta.

In any case, Mega Lopunny operates similarly, with Fake Out breaking Froslass's sash and Return threatening to KO the next turn.

Another unreliable anti-lead I forgot about is Mega Metagross. It underspeeds a Destiny Bond with any move on T1 while it mega-evolves, and then speed-ties on T2 if it's Jolly.



Mega Houndoom's speed tier is nice in this metagame, and Moonblast lets it dismantle most of its offensive switch-ins. On the downside, it lost its spot as a devastating wallbreaker for sun teams. bump it up to B, I'd say, pending field testing.

Incidentally, the B ranks are feeling kinda bloated; is that a problem? Does a proliferation of viable Pokemon warrant filling up C and D ranks more, or is it fine to just have a lopsided VR?

Its more just an issue of the VR rankings themselves. In the process of using the Tourny battles to help judge some things before we finalize a new set of council approved rankings. Thanks for concern bud :D

 

[astroboy]

current viability rankings are really, really bad and havent been updated since vietnam so here we go. i made a lot of this with the help of Recreant so shoutouts to her. keep in mind these wont be perfect by any means, as its still a wip, but theyre a hell of a lot better than the current one lol

S Rank

S Rank

Altaria (Mega)

Charizard (Mega-X)

Diancie (Mega)

Thundurus

A Rank

A+ Rank

Azumarill

Entei

Garchomp

Heatran

Keldeo

Kyurem

Lopunny (Mega)

Talonflame

Steelix (Mega)

A Rank

Braviary

Froslass

Hoopa-Unbound

Gyarados (Mega)

Latias

Manaphy

Metagross (Mega)

Moltres

Pidgeot-Mega

Virizion

Weavile

A- Rank

Aerodactyl (Mega)

Alakazam (Mega)

Camerupt (Mega)

Charizard (Mega Y)

Clefable

Excadrill

Gengar

Goodra

Gyarados

Kyurem-Black

Landorus-Therian

Latios

Latios (Mega)

Serperior

Scizor (Mega)

Torterra

Tornadus-Therian

Tyranitar

Zoroark

B Rank

B+ Rank

Bronzong

Cobalion

Empoleon

Gastrodon

Gliscor

Sableye (Mega)

Sandslash

Scolipede

Venusaur (Mega)

Victini


B Rank

Absol (Mega)

Aggron (Mega)

Archeops

Beedrill

Bisharp

Feraligatr

Houndoom (Mega)

Heracross (Mega)

Klefki

Hawlucha

Hippowdon

Kingdra

Manectric (Mega)

Mew

Politoed

Porygon-Z

Tyrantrum

Mega Sceptile

Swanna

Slowbro

Volcorona

B- Rank

Audino (Mega)

Banette (Mega)

Blastoise (Mega

Celebi

Crawdaunt

Forretress

Garchomp (Mega)

Omastar

Reuniclus

Slowbro (Mega)

Sylveon

Tangrowth

Wobuffet

Zapdos

C Rank

C+ Rank

Cacturne

Kabutops

Granbull

Jolteon

Mantine

Mandibuzz

Muk

Pinsir (Mega)

Raikou

Rotom-Fan

Rotom-Heat

Seismitoad

Sharpedo (Mega)

Slowking

Venusaur

C Rank

Abomasnow (Mega)

Ampharos (Mega)

Conkeldurr

Chesnaught

Chansey

Gothitelle

Heracross

Latias (Mega)

Magneton

Rhyperior

Staraptor

C- Rank

Cloyster

Donphan

Gogoat

Pangoro

Weezing

D Rank

D Rank

Emboar

Milotic

Azelf

lemme know if uve got any questions or concerns

 

[Patolegend!]

current viability rankings are really, really bad and havent been updated since vietnam so here we go. i made a lot of this with the help of Recreant so shoutouts to her. keep in mind these wont be perfect by any means, as its still a wip, but theyre a hell of a lot better than the current one lol

From personal experience, Weezing's a lot better than D rank; walling Altaria, SR Excadrill, Diancie, and a whole lot more, it can be annoying to take down, especially with WoW and a varied movepool. With Wish support (which it'll inevitably have on the defensive teams it's used on), it can really put it work.

I also think Cacturne's a lot better than C+ rank. It provides a (fragile) water resist and helps Sand teams beat Azu, and Grass/Dark is very reasonable coverage. When you put that together with its capability to run spikes and hit from either side, it's definitely a threat to account for.

Also, what makes Talon so much better in this meta? The lack of TTar? Excadrill's still around, and we have two powerful E-speed users that are much more prominent, while Diancie is also excellent. Another factor if you use Talon, you can't use Moltres, who offers a lot of the same defensive capabilities but without a rocks weakness.

 

[astroboy]

yeah talonflame to s was one of the more controversial noms rec and i discussed and i think we were kinda jumping the gun on that one. our though process was "the meta has gotten frailer and rock types have been getting less and less common" but looking back at it it should definitely go to a+ because it faces a lot of competition with braviary/moltres, who demand far less team support and perform similar roles in one shape or another.

im editing that in rn :0

jurys still out on cacturne and weezing, id like to see more support for these

 

[Salemance]

yeah talonflame to s was one of the more controversial noms rec and i discussed and i think we were kinda jumping the gun on that one. our though process was "the meta has gotten frailer and rock types have been getting less and less common" but looking back at it it should definitely go to a+ because it faces a lot of competition with braviary/moltres, who demand far less team support and perform similar roles in one shape or another.

im editing that in rn :0

jurys still out on cacturne and weezing, id like to see more support for these

I can easily vouch for Weezing to be a higher than D. It pairs naturally with M-Ampharos due to their nice type combination and Wish support, allowing it to have some nice options of recovery when needed. Steel/Poison typing + Levitate is actually damn fantastic, as sure it loses that fighting resist, but it gains a lot more annoyance via x4 fairy resist and dragon resist. It is capable of coming in effortlessly a lot of the time through my play testing (as it can be vouched for by Pato) that it has a great niche/role within the meta as a more than serviceable wall. It has its flaws yes in it only being able to painsplit for recovery and getting fucked over by fire moves, but its nothing that's all that big. Am I saying its above D ranking? Yes, it fits fine within the C rankings, be it -, normal, or + as it really shouldn't go any higher but its better than D

 

[GlassVeins]

Quick note: shouldn't vrizon be bolded in the rankings? Also, where's gale wings swanna? I think that should be in the B rankings.

 

[astroboy]

yeah nice catch ksr
i moved weezing to c-

please note that this is still wip, but its still better than the current rankings lol

 

[Akumeoy]

While we're on the topic, Cradily should be ranked. It's a very specially bulky rocks setter and Sand Streamer with reliable recovery. Possibly usable on non-sand teams, but I haven't seen it in that role.

 

[Salemance]

While we're on the topic, Cradily should be ranked. It's a very specially bulky rocks setter and Sand Streamer with reliable recovery. Possibly usable on non-sand teams, but I haven't seen it in that role.

Ya it should be ranked. The rankings just proposed are not universally approved and are being debated heavily atm in convo. Your example of Cradily not being ranked is a prime example of this as it is a fantastic sand setter even with hippo and ttar already existing. GnralLao and Patolegend! can also verify this as well.

I don't know where I personally would rank it but it does need to be ranked.

 

[astroboy]

this was just a personal resource that rec and i made. keep in mind its not supposed to replace isa's rankings, as lackluster as they are, and we just used them as an alternative for us that we thought could help others. as such, were gonna have some stuff missing; this is my fault, and i appologize. im in school rn but when i get the oppurtunity, ill be editing in starmie skarm and cradily later, but please let me know if i janked up on anything else. thank you

 

[nameless90]

this was just a personal resource that rec and i made. keep in mind its not supposed to replace isa's rankings, as lackluster as they are, and we just used them as an alternative for us that we thought could help others. as such, were gonna have some stuff missing; this is my fault, and i appologize. im in school rn but when i get the oppurtunity, ill be editing in starmie skarm and cradily later, but please let me know if i janked up on anything else. thank you

Ferrothorn is missing and with all this Fire type spam should be A rank at maximum (instead of being placed in A+ such as in the previous viability ranking).

P.S. Maybe is better if the unviable theorymons are written under a section named "blacklisted"/"unviable theorymons".

 

[G-Luke]

Hey. I conceived this idea about how to promote OU Theorymon (and also Monotype, fav OM) since it only gets discussion when ever a new theorymon gets adde and NEVER develops as its own meta. I call it the Mono Theorymon Monthly Tournament. The reason I chose Monotype as the format is a) Monotype makes teambuilding all more challenging and interesting. B) It would be good to see how the theorymon react in a Monotyped setting, and how types would use new gifts (and replace old ones). C) Monotype is cool.

So what do you think? Is the idea (or at least the basis) a good one?

 

[Isa Simple]

Adding

+ Iron Barbs and Recover

The Immortal

 

[Akumeoy]

Tentacruel + Ferrothorn + Garchomp hazard core Y/Y

I was joking when I first wrote that but the three actually have surprisingly good defensive synergy and cover many utility needs a team might have. Needs to pack answers for shit like Kyurem, Togekiss, and Moltres, as well as a cleric, but otherwise it seems very strong and very punishing to physical attackers.

Hide

Tentacruel @ Rocky Helmet
- Scald
- Rapid Spin
- Toxic Spikes
- Recover

Ferrothorn @ Rocky Helmet
- Spikes
- Leech Seed
- Iron Head/Power Whip
- Thunder Wave/Power Whip

Garchomp @ Rocky Helmet
- Stealth Rock
- Dragon Tail
- Earthquake
- Fire Blast

 

[G-Luke]

So no one is considering the Mono Theorymon tourney idea?

 

[Salemance]

So no one is considering the Mono Theorymon tourney idea?

Sorry for the delay on this answer bud. For most of the council its a hellish time of year between all our combined finals, so I have been a little slow posting on Smogon.

This is an interesting idea as anyone who has messed with mono room (I have for far too long sometimes), they always do try making tournaments with different types of metas in it, and this is an idea for Theorymon since we are pretty much a beefed up OU (by that I mean in both better and worse terms since we don't really regulate it). I'd say its an idea I'd like to mess with, but got to discuss it a little more before I fully commit bud

 

[GlassVeins]

couple things: could we update the viability rankings to remove wobb and goth?

+ Rattled and Moonblast
Um, I can't see this one being higher than B-. Sure it's cool and after a NP boost it hits like a truck, but fairies are pretty dominate in this meta.

+ Iron Barbs and Recover

I'd say A-, because it can easily stop the myriad of awesome special attackers without getting worn down now. play testing would be nice here too.

 

[Isa Simple]

ANNOUNCEMENT

Sorry that this has been a bit dead recently, but as of late I've begun to lose a lot of interest in the Theorymon Project and Metagame due to multiple reasons of my own, inside and outside the forum. As a result I've been a bit sloppy over the last couple months or so with sparking discussion and updating the VR.
It is because of this that I've decided to pass the thread back over to the council where it belongs, hence the newest council member, Tressed will be taking over and starting a new thread for this metagame. He is an active member of the community and I know that he will do a fantastic job of running the thread alongside the rest of the council, as he does with all his other threads. Hopefully in the hands of the council this will be able to flourish and grow, and you will finally get those up-to-date Viability Rankings you've all been waiting for!

I still have high hopes for OU Theorymon, regarding both the metagame and project. Its been a long run and I sincerely hope that this isn't the end of it, and that eventually I will be able to find that spark and come back as an enthused member of the Theorymon community. Till then, I'll likely still be lurking so lets get some discussion going in the new thread as we get closer and closer towards the 50 buffed pokemon milestone! (We are at 47 atm).

Tagging The Immortal to lock this thread.

 

[The Immortal]

If he will tag me and update the thread as soon as a change happens, like how you have done, then it works for me