Gen 3 Paralysis + Rhydon

[topdeckedhaxo_o]

Introduction:

Hi! I'm fairly new to gen 3 (I have been laddering for the past few months), so I've decided to post one of my teams for critique. Also note that a lot of these sets have been copied from other sources because I'm still new to the gen and I was struggling on optimising EVs, so I claim no ownership over anything here (one of the main reasons I posted this team was to get help with the EVs). I got a lot of these sets from this pastebin dump, and some sets I saw on the forums.

Anyway, the basis of this team was Rhydon, mostly because I was inspired by some other Rhydon teams I saw on the ladder. I noticed how effective paralysis was in helping Rhydon out-speed everything and fish for substitutes, where he can then get a Swords Dance boost to punch holes in the opposing team, and even abuse the flinch rate of Rock Slide for a "paraflinch" combo. I'll explain how I decided on my other team members as I go over them below.

The Team:

Zapdos @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 202 HP / 172 SpA / 136 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 2 Atk / 30 SpA
- Hidden Power [Grass]
- Thunder Wave
- Thunderbolt
- Baton Pass
​

Zapdos is my lead, mostly because he is immediately threatening with Thunderbolt and Baton Pass can give me some nice momentum to start the match. He's also one of my four paralysis users to support Rhydon. Additionally, Thunder Wave actually cripples a lot of Zapdos switch ins such as Tyranitar, Raikou and Celebi, allowing me to Baton Pass to the appropriate check the following turn.

Rhydon @ Leftovers
Ability: Rock Head
EVs: 212 HP / 122 Atk / 176 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Earthquake
- Rock Slide
- Substitute
​

I guess I'll get this guy out of the way, as he is the focus of this team. Earthquake and Rock Slide form amazing coverage especially with STAB, and Substitute lets me fish for that full paralysis against paralysed opponents. Once I get the substitute, I will usually Swords Dance and attempt to sweep a paralysed/damaged team or take chunks out of a heathy one.

Megahorn was in consideration mostly for Celebi and Claydol, but after a Swords Dance I'll be doing approximately 50% to even a 252 HP / 220+ Def Celebi with Rock Slide. Factoring the fear of Megahorn alone and the fact I also have a check in Gyarados, Celebi hasn't been too much of an issue so far.

Gyarados @ Leftovers
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 68 HP / 252 Atk / 188 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Hidden Power [Flying]
- Thunder Wave
- Dragon Dance
- Earthquake
​

I literally auto-added Gyarados to the team, mostly because it has amazing type synergy with Rhydon and it can paralyse with Thunder Wave. The only issue is that I wasn't sure how to approach creating a Thunder Wave Gyarados set, so I just opted for the typical Dragon Dance + Taunt set, and replaced Taunt with Thunder Wave.

As said earlier, this Gyarados is a nice check to most Celebi and Claydol that don't have Toxic. With the given EVs, it can also out-speed Raikou and murder it with Earthquake. This set also acts as a nice late-game cleaner, as you can Dragon Dance and sweep a ruined team after Rhydon had it's fun decimating everything.

Magneton @ Salac Berry
Ability: Magnet Pull
EVs: 48 HP / 252 SpA / 208 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 2 Atk / 30 SpA
- Hidden Power [Grass]
- Thunder Wave
- Thunderbolt
- Endure
​

Magneton was also a mandatory pick for this team to trap the Steel types that make life hard for Rhydon and Gyarados. I opted for the Endure set mostly to lure Dugtrio after trapping a Steel type, who is immune to Thunder Wave and can otherwise revenge kill Rhydon. I decided to opt for Thunder Wave instead because it would have been foolish to use Screech without Dugtrio, and it supports Rhydon.

Snorlax @ Leftovers
Ability: Immunity
EVs: 96 HP / 56 Atk / 136 Def / 80 SpA / 140 SpD
Brave Nature
- Self-Destruct
- Earthquake
- Body Slam
- Fire Blast
​

I really wanted a utility Snorlax on my team, mostly because it's insanely durable and I can use Body Slam to spread paralysis. Additionally, the paralysis this team offers also supports Snorlax perfectly, letting it out-speed a lot of paralysed mons to Self-Destruct, such as Celebi (who is always OHKO'd). Immunity is also a nice ability as it lets me take on the Water types who would otherwise beat Gyarados with Toxic and Hypnosis (as Gyarados no longer has Taunt for said Water types).

Also, this is a set that I found and copied from a respected user called Foggi. I'm not going to pretend I understand what all the EVs are for, because I don't! I may even adjust the EVs later on to out-speed some paralysed threats.

Salamence @ Silk Scarf
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 Atk / 116 SpA / 140 Spe
Naughty Nature
- Hidden Power [Grass]
- Double-Edge
- Brick Break
- Fire Blast
​

This is a set I copied from the previously mentioned pastebin dump. Although I have two other Hidden Power Grass users in Zapdos and Magneton, people usually expect the Hidden Power Grass from both those sets. This Salamence works as a fantastic lure for Steel types and Swampert, as most would expect me to have a Choice Band at the sight of Double-Edge without any Leftovers recovery. Against Swampert, a Double-Edge followed by a Hidden Power Grass with almost always KO. Double Edge also does nice damage against most Water types, and can be used to clean them up in the late game.

Threats (so far):

Claydol with Toxic can be troublesome for my team. Claydol's unique typing makes extremely difficult for Rhydon to power through. It also takes little from Zapdos, Magneton and Salamence despite all three carrying Hidden Power Grass.

Although I can deal with Claydol without Toxic with Gyarados, ones that carry Toxic can easily wear Gyarados down. Also unlike Celebi, Snorlax can't really damage Claydol significantly outside of Self-Destruct. I may consider using Shadow Ball on Snorlax in the future as relying on Self-Destruct is risky.

Bulky Water types can also be an issue. Milotic in particular likes taking paralysis so Marvel Scale makes it harder to take down, especially with Recover. Although Zapdos's Thunderbolt wrecks havoc on all of them, he can't take too many Ice Beams before going down. Magneton can also serve a similar purpose, but it isn't too reliable considering Dugtrio. Usually if Zapdos and Magneton are removed, bulky Water types can be hard to deal with.

That's about it, there will probably be more as I continue to use this team, though.

Importable version:

Importable

Zapdos @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 202 HP / 172 SpA / 136 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 2 Atk / 30 SpA
- Hidden Power [Grass]
- Thunder Wave
- Thunderbolt
- Baton Pass

Salamence @ Silk Scarf
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 Atk / 116 SpA / 140 Spe
Naughty Nature
- Hidden Power [Grass]
- Double-Edge
- Brick Break
- Fire Blast

Snorlax @ Leftovers
Ability: Immunity
EVs: 96 HP / 56 Atk / 136 Def / 80 SpA / 140 SpD
Brave Nature
- Self-Destruct
- Earthquake
- Body Slam
- Fire Blast

Rhydon @ Leftovers
Ability: Rock Head
EVs: 212 HP / 122 Atk / 176 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Earthquake
- Rock Slide
- Substitute

Magneton @ Salac Berry
Ability: Magnet Pull
EVs: 48 HP / 252 SpA / 208 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 2 Atk / 30 SpA
- Hidden Power [Grass]
- Thunder Wave
- Thunderbolt
- Endure

Gyarados @ Leftovers
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 68 HP / 252 Atk / 188 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Hidden Power [Flying]
- Thunder Wave
- Dragon Dance
- Earthquake

Thanks for reading! As I said earlier my main issue with this team is the spreads, so if someone could help me with them (as well as the entire team) I'd definitely appreciate it!

 

[topdeckedhaxo_o]

Received plenty of advice with regards to this team on PS, so expect an update soon.

 

[UD]

Hi! Cool team, always happy to see new ADV players :)

For starters, you want HP Fire Mag on this team. There's no real need for the Endure Salac set since all you do is scare Dugtrio out and in comes a Blissey or Celebi etc. So I would suggest HP Fire / Thunderbolt / Thunder Wave / Toxic @ Leftovers. With this change, you can afford to drop Fire Blast in favor of Shadow Ball on your Snorlax. That frees up your SpA investment to be redistributed elsewhere. Snorlax EVs are generally quite flexible and you can reach whatever numbers look good to you.

Fire Blast Salamence is also a bit redundant with the Magneton support. You're basically only hitting Metagross and Celebi (always good targets, no doubt), but you kind of look decently well prepared vs. Metagross already, and Celebi could be dealt with by the combination of Mence / Gyara / Lax. I like MixMence here still since you need to pressure opposing Swampert as much as possible to let your Rhydon shine. But how about Dragon Claw > Fire Blast? You do look a bit weak vs. opposing Salamence so I think this will help out there.

Overall the team seems to have a solid physical backbone with dual Intimidate plus resistances (CB Tar can be a pain like always), but if you find yourself struggling vs. certain offensive Pokes, you can always try increasing the bulk on any number of your Pokes. An example of this would be giving Rhydon the bulk to survive a +1 DD Tar Rock Slide and Earthquake (not sure how realistic this is but it's just an example).

Hope this rate helps and best of luck to you!

 

[eden]

Hey dude nice team!

I really like the concept of Thunder Wave+SD Rhydon which I really think is effective to an extent. I do have some issues with the team though, the biggest of which is the match up versus DD Tyranitar. An easy fix(to me anyway) would be running a Flygon>Salamence which patches up one of the bigger issues I had with the build. The biggest issue with this change is that it opens you up to Heracross a bit more, but from what I can tell you're already faster than the standard Adamant Heracross with Gyarados so it's not undoable on that front.

Another option worth looking at is running a +speed nature on Salamence which covers you vs DD Tar a lot better. I'd be running ProTox or Double Status Magneton with HP:Fire by the way on this team, especially seeing as how there is no spinner; so you basically have to try and restrict the opponent to one layer as best as possible. Running Magnet on Magneton is also an option if you're finding offensive electric+spikes to be too much of an issue(in all fairness I feel this is a very solid playstyle in general), same kind of goes for offensive Starmie teams. Probably requires you to play Lax a little more carefully.

Also reaching that benchmark with SD Rhydon is sadly impossible D:. Requires far too much investment to the point where you might as well use something else. If you opt to run Double Status Mag I'd creep the standard DDTar which runs around ~221 speed iirc, which makes it so that even if nothing can quite switch in to DD Tar, every will be able to cripple it if it ever opts to DD, with fast Mence being a failsafe.

Aerodactyl match up isn't terrible considering that you have two rock resists+2 EQ immunes. If you're ever desperate for an extra answer, Hydro Pump Gyarados puts it into the range of +1 HP Flying 100% so that's another option; but here I don't think that's particularly necessary.

Also considering you have Zapdos, have you ever considered Toxic+HP:Ice Zapdos? You nail Flygon, while landing Toxic on Swampert which makes Rhydon's job a fair bit easier later in the game.

Want to note that if you ran CB Jolly Flygon it probably covers your remaining issue with CM Spam+also covering your "issues" with DDTar.

Bulky Gengar is another massive pain for this team, luckily Gyarados tends to bait that in, so you have a decent chance to land a Thunder Wave on the switch versus it. It's definitely an issue for sure though versus a more conservative opponent.


I'll add more if I see anything else.

Tagging UD for another look, Astamatitos, Foggi, obii to take some more looks at this because I might have overestimated some threats and/or missed something.

All in all nice and interesting concept for a first team! Hope you continue to enjoy the meta.

 

[Foggi]

Suh dude, from the first look the team seems to be overall solid but after looking abit into it i see some major weaknesses, i think your tyranitar matchup is really shaky and mediocre so changing mence is kinda necessary for you. Sunny suggested to run flygon but i think that Swampert will be a way better bet since it helps you with your big weakness to DDtar aswell as DDmence, i also suggest you running the roar set since your team lacks a phazer. The second issue that i see with this team is gengar, your matchup vs wispgar is really decent and i think your team needs some set changes aswell, i think you should change your Snorlax to the standard Curse/Body Slam/Shadowball/Rest set since you already run magneton for it + it helps your matchup vs gengar, i also think that you should change your magneton set to modest bulky leftovers set with pro/tox cause it can help you take on gengar to an extent. The next issue is mixmence, it can pretty much do rly solid damage to all of your mons so i would also suggest you running a bulkier zapdos spread with the set that Sunny mentioned above, it helps you with salamence and gives you the abillity to support your rhydon by landing a toxic on opposing swampert. Protect on this set is also really nice, especially if you use it as a lead since it can scout the opposing Choice Banded leads wich are common in adv.

Here are the sets that i suggest you running for this team

Sets

Swampert (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Torrent
EVs: 252 HP / 216 Def / 40 SpA
Relaxed Nature
- Earthquake
- Ice Beam
- Roar
- Protect

Magneton @ Leftovers
Ability: Magnet Pull
EVs: 100 HP / 212 SpA / 196 Spe
Modest Nature
- Hidden Power [Fire]
- Protect
- Thunderbolt
- Toxic

Snorlax (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Immunity
EVs: 252 HP / 96 Atk / 80 Def / 80 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Curse
- Body Slam
- Shadow Ball
- Rest

Zapdos @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 HP / 28 Def / 228 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 2 Atk / 30 Def
- Thunderbolt
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Toxic
- Protect

EDIT: Also another suggestion that i thought would be replacing gyarados with pert instead of salamence then making the salamence a DD set, i like this suggestion more than replacing mence with pert so think it over.

 

[topdeckedhaxo_o]

Wow thanks guys for all this help. I feel kinda bad now that I've been lazy and haven't actually updated the team as I haven't visited this thread in a long time.

Here's what the team actually looks like now after I showed the original to Cowboy Dan. I haven't added it to the OP yet because I've just received all this advice, so it will probably be changed again. Among some of the changes made, I am now running HP Fire dual status Magneton and my Salamence is running max speed, which helps against the mentioned Forretress and Tyranitar Weaknesses. Also dropped Fire Blast on Snorlax and went for a different spread.

 

[topdeckedhaxo_o]

Hey guys. I haven't used this team too much recently but this is what it looks like now:

Zapdos @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 104 HP / 252 SpA / 152 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 2 Atk / 30 SpA
- Hidden Power [Grass]
- Thunder Wave
- Thunderbolt
- Baton Pass

Rhydon (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Lightning Rod
EVs: 212 HP / 168 Atk / 128 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Earthquake
- Rock Slide
- Substitute

Magneton @ Leftovers
Ability: Magnet Pull
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 68 HP / 252 SpA / 188 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 2 Atk / 30 SpA / 30 Spe
- Hidden Power [Fire]
- Thunder Wave
- Thunderbolt
- Toxic

Snorlax (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Thick Fat
EVs: 16 HP / 124 Atk / 220 Def / 136 SpD / 12 Spe
Careful Nature
- Shadow Ball
- Body Slam
- Curse
- Rest

Flygon @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 180 HP / 176 Atk / 152 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Earthquake
- Substitute
- Fire Blast
- Toxic

Tyranitar (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Sand Stream
EVs: 176 HP / 160 Atk / 172 Spe
Adamant Nature
IVs: 30 SpD / 30 Spe
- Hidden Power [Bug]
- Dragon Dance
- Earthquake
- Rock Slide

Biggest changes I made were removing Salamence and Gyarados for Flygon and Tyranitar. As was mentioned Tyranitar was a huge problem for me and I agree Flygon is a great answer to that. I settled on a Substitute variant with Toxic to take on Swampert and some other walls a bit better since I feel the team can struggle with Swampert sometimes. Substitute also has nice synergy with Paralysis. It's also a great answer to enemy Flygon which would have otherwise been a problem I feel. I may change Fire Blast for Hidden Power Bug to answer Celebi since Celebi can be a bit annoying.

I think Tyranitar just has a lot of synergy with the heavy focus on paralysis. I usually save him late game once the opponent's team is weakened/paralysed/poisoned, and he does an exceptional job at cleaning up. Rock Slide just has amazing synergy with this team. I'm not sure if I should invest more in defenses or power though.

I also changed Snorlax into a CurseLax. He still offers utility in spreading paralysis, but he now doubles up as a win condition and a Gengar and Starmie answer. I didn't feel like I needed Earthquake or Fire Blast on my Snorlax either.

So far I've really enjoyed this iteration of my team, but as mentioned it still has a MixMence issue. I also think Offensive Starmie is a huge problem if Snorlax is taken out or is weak. I'm probably going to mess around with the Zapdos set to fix these problems. I love the moveset on it though.

Thanks guys for all the advice.