Proposal phoopes' Original Ruleset for Your Gen One Needs (PORYGON): the (hopefully) final thread about RBY cart accuracy vs. modding

[Melbelle]

lol?

passive aggressive

 

[gastlies]

If someone uses Sleep Powder with a Pokemon already asleep on the opposing side but misses and isn't DQ, but someone else in the same situation uses it and it lands getting them DQ'd that's not a particularly fair rule.

u can literally make this argument for any move with less than 100% accuracy. "If someone uses Hydro Pump on a Pokemon but misses and loses the game because of it, but someone else in the same situation uses it and it lands letting them win, that's not a particularly fair move". We play a game that is inherently luck-based. Sleep clause on cart has always been "if you sleep two pokemon, you lose". I don't see why someone should be punished for clicking a sleep move that doesn't actually sleep the opponent.

Lets say there's a situation where you don't want to immediately kill the opponent for whatever reason, and you have 3 attacking moves with sleep powder as a last move but the opponent already has a Pokemon asleep. A real play with the idea of "if it doesn't work no DQ" would be to sleep powder and hope for miss, again this isn't competitive and with the given rules its not a situation a player should expect in any way. There's too much variance without a hard rule in a game like Pokemon and I think "going for a move that can cause sleep while the opponent already has a pokemon slept" is a pretty well defined way of doing it, adding an exception to misses will cause some messy situations and introduces a lot of luck outright.

Again this is just fishing for a 25% chance, how is this any more luck based than Tauros going for a last-ditch Hyper Beam crit or hoping your opp FPs at the right time? This is something you would realistically only do in a lost endgame so you dont care about the DQ and there's nothing wrong with going for 25% odds.

I really disagree with the idea of Sleep Choice Clause. Mel and Sabel have already given great reasons why so I'm not gonna restate their arguments, but I can give a more modern example. Say you have a Breloom that slept a Natural Cure Blissey. Now you cannot click spore as it switches out, meaning Blissey can switch into something like Zapdos with zero risk of Zapdos getting slept on the switch. This is zero reason why Breloom would not be allowed to click sleep here, as it is impossible for it to trigger the lose condition this turn.

 

[phoopes]

Alright, in the GOLDUC post I tried to keep things pretty objective and just called for a vote on various topics, but other people are giving their personal opinions so I may as well too.

We are trying to fix something that isn't broken.

People are hemming and hawing over "we should be more cart accurate" or "we should mod the game even more to make it more competitive" but I think we've already pretty much nailed it and should just leave it be for the most part. I think any (major) changes just make all RBY metas worse and we shouldn't be trying to rock the boat too much.

I think we should accept the fact that we play a modded version of RBY, but shouldn't go any further than we already have.

I understand this is arbitrarily drawing lines in the sand, but so be it, that's my opinion that I like things the way they are and you're not going to change my opinion. I think the arguments for more cart accurate Sleep Clause makes the game less competitive/fun, such as with auto-lose conditions or graying out the Sleep move buttons. I think the arguments for modding the game further are slippery slope arguments ("well we've already modded the game, so we may as well just mod it even further"). I think we've already gotten it right and that we don't need any major changes.

I will try to be comprehensive in the following lists with things that people have already brought up.

Things I want to stay the same:
-Partial Trapping unbanned at the OU level. This includes Agility + Partial Trapping. Lower Tiers can do what they want with this mechanic/style of gameplay but OU should remain unchanged.
-Counter mechanics/desync clause in all tiers.
-Sleep Clause in all tiers.
-Global "jank," such as 256 misses and recovery move failures at certain HP values. These things are tied to the identity of RBY and I'd like to keep them.

Things I'm indifferent on:
-Freeze Clause. I could go one way or the other on this. On one hand, I think if you get unlucky, so be it. On the other, freeze fishing would become more common which is kind of eh.

Things that I want to see changed:
-It'd be nice to have a notice for when you're at an HP value where your recovery move would fail. I think this would be a nice QoL feature.
-Make bans transitive to lower tiers if they're not already (sorry, haven't kept up with the goings-on of lower tiers recently). If UU had tools to work with that OU didn't, for example, that just doesn't make sense to me.

---

As you can tell, I like the status quo. And I think that's okay, because again, I feel like we're trying to fix something that's not broken. I would like to see formal votes on all this stuff though, that way we can finally put this to rest (until a few years later when people start complaining again lol).

 

[Melbelle]

I would like to see formal votes on all this stuff though, that way we can finally put this to rest

I do not support voting on any of these except desync moves at the moment. You are literally admitting you only want a vote so people shut up about these.
I'm a little confused why this thread was bumped, I think we pretty much said everything there was in the past and all that really changed is Lily implied a freeze clause revote might be allowed (not confirmed btw). I intend to still call out freeze clause as a BS clause even if we formally vote to keep it. Lily didn't even say anything about sleep clause changes being allowed (they said the playerbase can remove it, not modify how it behaves)

-It'd be nice to have a notice for when you're at an HP value where your recovery move would fail. I think this would be a nice QoL feature.

Already shot down, but there is an extension that does this

Make bans transitive to lower tiers if they're not already

They are

 

[BigFatMantis]

You probably need a separate more targeted thread to get things done tbh. Like "Freeze Clause in RBY" for example. Too much will get lost in the process otherwise. It makes it a little slower to change/address multiple issues at once, but that's just how Smogon kinda works (slow) and if you try to lightning speed through too many things simultaneously it translates instead into nothing happening.

I think it'd be pointless at this point to try to make a sleep clause in RBY topic, since that doesn't seem to have any sort of chance of reaching a resolution at this point since most people cannot agree on what, if anything, to do about it. The only things that seem realistic at this point are discussing Freeze Clause and voting on desync (can make a topic on desync as well but you could probably just vote on it since it's been discussed for years already and seems like not many people really oppose a vote at this point)